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Thread: Sarmatians, Serbs, Croats and I2a2

  1. #101
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    Interesting, refreshing, a counter intuitive thinking with reversing hg for Slavs and Sarmatians,...I need time to digest it, when I'm on vacation next week. Very interesting.
    cya

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    Very brave idea of Shetop but not without sense. As I understand he states that R1a in eastern Europe are of Sarmatian stock, and later he conclude that all neighboring people of Slavs were Baltic speakers who adopted Slavic language. What does not fit in that story is so numerous R1a population ( if it was ruling caste) and so little I2a population to be subjects of rule. I do not why, but generally people with I2a seems to me much more like those who rule than those to be ruled with. Carpatian Highlanders, Dinaric Highlanders. It has always been mountainious warlike sociaties. But that tie Baltic-Slavic could be very interesting, especially if we put R1a to Baltic and I2a to Slavic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    Very brave idea of Shetop but not without sense. As I understand he states that R1a in eastern Europe are of Sarmatian stock, and later he conclude that all neighboring people of Slavs were Baltic speakers who adopted Slavic language. What does not fit in that story is so numerous R1a population ( if it was ruling caste) and so little I2a population to be subjects of rule. I do not why, but generally people with I2a seems to me much more like those who rule than those to be ruled with. Carpatian Highlanders, Dinaric Highlanders. It has always been mountainious warlike sociaties. But that tie Baltic-Slavic could be very interesting, especially if we put R1a to Baltic and I2a to Slavic.
    To clarify this issue about R1a groups. There were to groups:
    1. Northeast of the Black Sea - Sarmatians (Alans)
    2. North and north east of I2a2 people - let's call this people Balto Slavs

    Only small portion of Sarmatians moved with the Huns (including old Serbs (Serboi) and Croats) towards central Europe. These basically military units had a task of controlling people North of Carpathians, mostly I2a2 people. They got Slavicised but they also transfered their names to a large part of I2a2 people. Their direct descendants today would be Sorbs in East Germany and also some of the people in the Krakow region (White Croatia).

    Numerous R1a (today related to R1a1a7, Balto Slavs) 2000 years ago dwelled probably somewhere around Belarus and also received Slavic language in maybe even earlier process. In 5th or 6th century they moved towards Poland, Czechoslovakia...

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    To clarify this issue about R1a groups. There were to groups:
    1. Northeast of the Black Sea - Sarmatians (Alans)
    2. North and north east of I2a2 people - let's call this people Balto Slavs
    Only small portion of Sarmatians moved with the Huns (including old Serbs (Serboi) and Croats) towards central Europe. These basically military units had a task of controlling people North of Carpathians, mostly I2a2 people. They got Slavicised but they also transfered their names to a large part of I2a2 people. Their direct descendants today would be Sorbs in East Germany and also some of the people in the Krakow region (White Croatia).
    Numerous R1a (today related to R1a1a7, Balto Slavs) 2000 years ago dwelled probably somewhere around Belarus and also received Slavic language in maybe even earlier process. In 5th or 6th century they moved towards Poland, Czechoslovakia...
    Possible theory, but what you need to prove it, is to show that R1a of Sorbs is some different R1a (of Sarmatian origin) than eastern european R1a. As I know there was only one testing on Sorbs which shows that 64% figure of R1a, but also 20% of I haplogroup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    Possible theory, but what you need to prove it, is to show that R1a of Sorbs is some different R1a (of Sarmatian origin) than eastern european R1a. As I know there was only one testing on Sorbs which shows that 64% figure of R1a, but also 20% of I haplogroup.
    At this moment it is maybe impossible to prove it.

    But if we know this - Krakow also has 64% for R1a. I am not aware of any other regions in Europe with that high R1a. These two regions are somehow special and I think that is because Sarmatians significantly contributed their DNA in them.

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    Hi folks(from Serbia and Croatia),

    has been fun watching your consructive efforts trying to relate I2a to historically known ethnicities.

    Summary:
    1. An ethnic group located 4 -6 century AD north of the Black Sea;
    2. May have been (part of) the Huns of Atilla;
    3. Has relocated after 475 AD to Ukraine, northern Romania, Panonia, Belorus, Poland.
    4. Had a lot to do with both Visi- and Austro-Goths.

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    Folks,

    I was not done yet.
    ...
    6. Spoke church-slavonic;
    7. Had to to with Slavs in Ukraine, Romania, Panonia, and the Balkans.

    And for the Croats: had brought the Glagolitza.

    Who could have been that?

    Regards

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    I think I2a2 are Maurovlachs

    They were accumulated in the west Croatia, exactly in the place where we can find hotspot of I2a2

    Vlachs came from Moldavia-Romania where is another hotspot of I2a2.

    Both were Vlachs.

    Vlachs came together with Slavs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    I think I2a2 are Maurovlachs

    They were accumulated in the west Croatia, exactly in the place where we can find hotspot of I2a2

    Vlachs came from Moldavia-Romania where is another hotspot of I2a2.

    Both were Vlachs.

    Vlachs came together with Slavs.
    Then I would have to ask you how did historians describe these people before they came to Balkans? Getae, Dacians or something else?

    Btw, I disagree with your opinion.

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    If Shetops theory is correct then I think we would have to exclude a Sarmatian (Serboi) origin theory for Serbs since I don't think it would at all be possible for a smaller populace of R1a dominant people to dominate over a larger populace I2a2 dominant people.

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    This may be interesting - river Neretva in Northwest Ukraine (tributary of the Western Bug): http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%...3%D0%B3%D1%83).

    For those who don't know, Neretva is also name of the largest river in Herzegovina.

    Btw, there are a lot of clues which are saying that Western Bug was a western boundary to the areas where I2a2 Dinaric people dwelled for centuries (before 5th century).
    Last edited by Shetop; 28-08-10 at 21:18.

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    But I suppose that the Dinaric race had an origin in the Balkan and
    maybe in Turkey. The actual Yugo-Slavians are a mixture of
    invading Slavic tribes and ancient Illyric tribes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    But I suppose that the Dinaric race had an origin in the Balkan and
    maybe in Turkey. The actual Yugo-Slavians are a mixture of
    invading Slavic tribes and ancient Illyric tribes.
    Dinaric race is one thing and haplogroup I2a2 Dinaric is other thing.
    I2a2 Dinaric, especially its southern part, is quite young (2500 years old) subclade to be considered as autochtonuous on Balkan. Its high presence in Dinaric Alps could be result of high natality rate of newcomers.
    Illyrians are much more conected with haplogroup E1b than I2a2.
    According to haplotypes I saw, there is strong and obvious connection between Carphatian and Dinaric region.
    So Yugoslavs could be considered as mixture between Slavs and old population (Illyrians, Thracians, Celts, Greeks and Latins) but only if we have on mind that majority of arriving Slavs belong to I2a2 haplogroup which is known as Dinaric only because its high presence in Dinaric Alps, and not as a place of its origin.
    About 40% of Yugoslavs belong to I2a2 haplogroup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    This may be interesting - river Neretva in Northwest Ukraine (tributary of the Western Bug): ...

    For those who don't know, Neretva is also name of the largest river in Herzegovina.

    Btw, there are a lot of clues which are saying that Western Bug was a western boundary to the areas where I2a2 Dinaric people dwelled for centuries (before 5th century).
    I have been told there are many Serbian related toponyms in Ukraine. I'd imagine that to some extent these are related to the territories of Slav Serbia and New Serbia established in present day Ukraine during the 18th century. Id also imagine this river name would predate those territories though.
    Last edited by Gusar; 01-09-10 at 11:52.

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    Only about 30% of Croats, 45% of Bosniaks, and 20% of Serbs belong to the haplogroup I which was the dominant (NOT the only one, but the dominant) Illyrian Y Chromosone.

    The rest are foreign to the balkans, mostly slavic which belong to haplogroup R1a (which is found in most slavic countries like Russian and Poland)

    Bosnians are the ones who posses the most indegenous Y DNA in the balkans (besides the people who were already indegenous like Albanians and Romanians) because about half of Bosnia is slavicized Illyrian Albanians.


    Like the Serb said in a post a few above mine, the main Illyrian haplogroups were I2a2 and E1b which are 2 of the main 3 Albanian haplogroups, which proves it all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YLLIRJANIngaYLLIRIA View Post
    Only about 30% of Croats, 45% of Bosniaks, and 20% of Serbs belong to the haplogroup I which was the dominant (NOT the only one, but the dominant) Illyrian Y Chromosone.

    The rest are foreign to the balkans, mostly slavic which belong to haplogroup R1a (which is found in most slavic countries like Russian and Poland)

    Bosnians are the ones who posses the most indegenous Y DNA in the balkans (besides the people who were already indegenous like Albanians and Romanians) because about half of Bosnia is slavicized Illyrian Albanians.


    Like the Serb said in a post a few above mine, the main Illyrian haplogroups were I2a2 and E1b which are 2 of the main 3 Albanian haplogroups, which proves it all.
    It would be nice if it would be true. I suggest you to visit few profesional forum groups specialized for I haplogroup:

    http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...A-HAPLOGROUP-I

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ection=results

    When you read what profesionals have been working there for all this years, it will be clear to you that you lived in a fairytale.

    Low freqency of I2a2 in Albanians is what make them genetically so different of South Slavs.

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    Smile Dig deeper

    Hi to all of you folks,

    First, let me congratulate you on the very interesting topic that you have developed.

    In my humble opinion you have asked very interesting questions and proposed original and quite exciting answers.

    However, there are some problems with your basic assumptions about both Sarmatians and Slavs, and their connection to the Balkanic populations.

    First problem: you seem to think that the Sarmatians must have had a kind of modal Y haplotype, as it is the case for the R1a in the present day Slavic populations.

    Second problem: you seem to imply that the fact that the majority of the present day Balkanic populations do consider themselves as being of the Slavic ancestry must be confirmed somehow on the genetic level.

    About the first problem: after the end of the Indo-Iranian Scythian age, the Eurasian steppes have been ruled and inhabited by nomad confederations, which have been formed by different tribes of very diverse ethnic origins. It is in fact very well described by the roman authors when it comes to the Huns of Attila, who have been presented as a horde consisting of tribes of a very different ethnic background (Germanic, Alan, Ugric, Uralic, Turkic, Mongolic) unable to communicate in a single language, but named Huns after their ruling elite. The same was true of the Avar's horde, Genghis khan's horde and so on. The same was probably true about Sarmatians: they were not a single and unified ethnic group, but a tribal confederation of people of very different ethnic origins united under a single dominant clan: the real Sarmates. They might have had several different Y haplotypes, including the ones that you argue about.

    About the second problem: Slavic migration from the current Pripyat region in the VI century A.D. was a migration of settlers intended on occupying the lands of the Roman and Byzantine ravaged by the centuries of wars, but not completely deserted by the indigenous population. This migration was in fact rather well accepted by the Byzantine authorities which needed the Slavic newcomers for the protection of the borders against the steppes nomads. The Slavs did not replace the indigenous population, they simply superseded it and in majority of the cases converted it culturally.

    So it is useless to look for a specific "Sarmatian" haplotype, because it is quite possible that such haplotype has in fact never existed outside of a tiny elite in a huge nomadic confederation which included everything and anything that this elite was able to subdue.

    And it is not surprising at all that R1a haplotype is not a completely dominant one in the Balkans, after all this region has had already a population before the coming of the Slavs, a population which has been converted to Slavic culture after many centuries of cohabitation with the Slavic settlers. This is the origin of the I1a haplotype: romanized Illyrians, Thracians and Dacians are the ancestors of these Vlakhs with whom the Slavs intermixed.

    BTW, for me Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks are all the same people, produced by the interbreeding of the Vlakhs (all indigenous populationns of the former Byzantine border-lands) and Slavs. If it was not for religious divisions and the cultural shifts that these divisions triggered, there would be a single nation in the Balkans by now. So blame it all on the popes, mullahs and catholic priests and quit arguing about who of you Balkanic guys is the "purest" Slav...

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    Interesting and well-written.

    I would note that the movement of Slavs from the Pripet Marshes at around that time seems to me to be a very likely scenario. I have mentioned before about the Balkan area suffering depopulation with the Romano-Gothic struggles, Huns, and later with the Avars, but do agree very much that many Balkan regions probably still had strong populations.

    I had read once that many of these Balkan communities mounted successful militia-type defenses against Huns and Avars. The source (can't recall its name) also held that Constantinople gave the people a hard time for doing so. Apparently this conflicted with their policy of buying off the invaders. Maybe someone can jump in here with more details.

    The picture of the southward-moving Slavs establishing their language and culture on these populations, leaving Albanian as the only holdout, could very well be accurate in my opinion. Prior to joining this forum and seeing the DNA maps which abound here, I had thought that Slav R1A would have been found not exclusively but in higher percentages in the Balkans. Yet another reason why I am glad that I joined.





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    First of all, there is no a single proof that I2a2Dinaric were in Illyricum during Roman times. If it would be so, there should be some I2a2 Dinaric haplotypes in France, Britain, Iberia, and not to mention neighboring Italy where I2a2 Dinaric is practicaly absent.
    The region of I2a2 Dinaric today is almost exact region which were inhabited by Slavs in 6th and 7th century during their greatest expansion, and if you want to recognize Slav in today populations I2a2Dinaric is most secure marker for that. If you ask yourself, why is I2a2 Dinaric absent in Italy, the only answer could be: Slavic tribes never entered Italy. If you ask yourself why is I2a2 presented in Greece, even in Peloponesus, the answer would be: Slavic tribes occupied and setlled in Greek inland in 6th century.
    There is no any connection with Illyrians and I2a2Dinaric. On the other hand R1a could exist on Balkan in some haplotypes before arriving of Slavs.
    It is enough only to compare following maps and everything would be clear.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenati View Post
    However, there are some problems with your basic assumptions about both Sarmatians and Slavs, and their connection to the Balkanic populations.

    First problem: you seem to think that the Sarmatians must have had a kind of modal Y haplotype, as it is the case for the R1a in the present day Slavic populations.

    Second problem: you seem to imply that the fact that the majority of the present day Balkanic populations do consider themselves as being of the Slavic ancestry must be confirmed somehow on the genetic level.
    Thanks for the nice words.

    I admit I had mistakes at the beginning. It was common to think Slavs were predominantly R1a so I tried to make story which would explain arrival of Croats and Serbs. One of mistakes for example was relating Serbian and Croatian migrations to the Hunnic period, and now I believe Avars played much bigger role in Slavic migrations as a whole, but especially for Croats and Serbs.

    But the "Second problem" as you described it, is the premise I'm still holding to. As fellow forum member iapodos explained there is no reason to assume I2a2a-Dinaric was in the Balkans prior to Slavic migrations. You have a nice subtitle for your post "Dig deeper". The deepest clue I had, before I had known much about haplogroups is that majority of the people in Western Balkans did arrive in the Early middle ages. Maybe we do not know this or that, maybe I'm an amateur in some of these fields, but on the other side living in the Balkans, great interest in history of the neighboring people, visiting different parts of the region made people like iapodos and me believe that connection between I2a2a-Dinaric and the Slavic arrival is inevitable. Some researchers from the West are beginning to accept this, and I also have to say the whole thing is not my idea.

    To all the arguments already written I will add the language issue.
    Croatian and Serbian languages are clearly Slavic, and their roots do not come from the areas with significant R1a frequencies, but from Dalmatia and Herzegovina, exactly those areas with the highest I2a2a-Dinaric. This match between language and Y-DNA is very clear and to use the words of "how yes no" it can't be a coincidence. :)

    Where are Sarmatians in all this. Well since I understood that history of I2a2a-Dinaric is less related to them I did neglect them a bit. I agree with your assumption of Sarmatian tribal confederations with people of different origin. The main question is how many of them did move from Russian plains towards west? In both of scenarios, the one with high number of Sarmatians entering Europe and the other scenario with not that significant Sarmatian migration, R1a seem to be important part of their Y-DNA. I'm not saying that modal R1a haplotype defines them, but for me it would not be strange that Sarmatians were predominantly R1a.

    When talking about R1a, Klyosov did some interesting work:
    http://r1a.org/3.htm
    He is not much appreciated by some people for his stories about R1b, but when it comes to making some structure inside R1a haplogroup I see no one else close to his results.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b1 Slavic South

    Ethnic group
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    Country: Serbia



    I was writing before on topic http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...t=26152&page=3 how the depopulation of Balkan in 6th century happened and how Slavs became dominant element. There is chronology:

    "I don't know for previous periods, but depopulation of 6th century is easy to understand which way happened:
    Till 533. it was quite stabile situation. Western part of Balkan (Dalmatia) was under Goths in Ostrogothic kingdom. Actually Ostrogothic kingdom under Theodoric was western part of Roman Empire with Gothic elite as ruling caste. The population in Dalmatia and Italy was still Roman with of course some Germanic minorities. Central part of Balkan was under direct Roman rule, as the eastern one.
    535- Justinian I attacks Goths and Gothic Roman wars began
    536- dramatic climatic change, little ice age
    541. great plague, killing 40 to 50% populatian of Roman Empire
    554- Romans finally defeated Goths, end of Roman Gothic war
    558.- Avars came to Panonia for first time, allied with Slavs their making incursions in Dalmatia province
    572.- Beginning of Roman Persian wars, most of Byzantine military moved to east leaving Balkan provinces without protection
    577.-Slavs are already in Balkan provinces, they reach as far to Peloponesus
    586.- Slavs were already settled from Danube to Peloponesus, Empire lost all Balkan inland
    So this is a short history of Balkan in the second half of 6th century. It is obvious that previous Roman (Greek) population was already devastated with famine, plague, wars especially in Dalmatia which was always less protected part of Empire and more exposed to the intervention from northern barbarians.
    Climatic change in 536. were recorded throughout Europe, and as we see real decline of Roman (Greek) power began with that year. Is it possible that Serbian legend about Greeks who leave the country because snow fall in July was an echo of some true story, story about crash of Roman Empire in Balkan and almost total change of its population."

    And about Serbs:

    "There were Slavs which definetely came before Serbs. Serbs came in 7th century and were parth of totally different migration. But much before the Serbs various Slavic tribes poured into Balkan provinces . At that tim Goths have already gone.This is the generation of arriving Slavs which could remember the dramatic climatic change in 536. and transfer it to Serbs which came around 620. The Serbs as I think were predominantly I2a2 Dinaric South and they settled among already settled Slavs which were predominantly I2a2 Dinaric North. Today, according to newest study there is about one third of North haplotypes among Serbs and Montenegrines and two third South haplotypes."

  22. #122
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    From what we know so far, Scythians were mainly R1a carriers....
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26058

    Sarmatians are, according to sources from ancient Greece, offspring of Scythians and Amazones, which would make them R1a dominant as well.

    Herodotus (Histories 4.21) in the fifth century BC placed the land of the Sarmatians east of the Tanais, beginning at the corner of the Maeotian Lake, stretching northwards for fifteen days' journey, adjacent to the forested land of the Budinoi. Herodotus describes the Sarmatians' physical appearance as blond, stout and tanned, in short, pretty much as the Scythians and Thracians were seen by the other classical authors.[who?]
    As seen in Roman depictions of Sarmatians they are of caucasian types[10]
    Herodotus (4.110-117) gives a story of the Sauromatians' origin from an unfortunate marriage of a band of young Scythian men and a group of Amazons. In the story, some Amazons were captured in battle by Greeks in Pontus (northern Turkey) near the river Thermodon, and the captives were loaded into three boats. They overcame their captors while at sea, but were not able sailors. Their ships were blown north to the Maeotian Lake (the Sea of Azov) onto the shore of Scythia near the cliff region (today's southeastern Crimea). After encountering the Scythians and learning the Scythian language, they agreed to marry Scythian men, but only on the condition that they move away and not be required to follow the customs of Scythian women. According to Herodotus, the descendants of this band settled toward the northeast beyond the Tanais (Don) river and became the Sauromatians. Herodotus' account explains the origins of the Sarmatians' language as an "impure" form of Scythian and credits the unusual freedoms of Sauromatae women, including participation in warfare, as an inheritance from their supposed Amazon ancestors. Later writers[who?] refer to the "woman-ruled Sarmatae" (γυναικοκρατούμενοι). However, Herodotus' belief that the Sarmatians were descendants of mythological Amazons is very likely a fictional invention designed to explain certain idiosyncrasies of Sarmatian culture.
    Hippocrates (De Aere, etc., 24) explicitly classes them as Scythian and describes them as "swarthy, short and fat, of a phlegmatic and relaxed temperament".
    Strabo[citation needed] mentions the Sarmatians in a number of places, never saying very much about them. He uses both Sarmatai and Sauromatai, but never together, and never suggesting that they are different peoples. He often pairs Sarmatians and Scythians in reference to a series of ethnic names, never stating which is which, as though Sarmatian or Scythian could apply equally to them all.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

    Diverse physical description do suggest tribes of different origin. On other hand, main source of Sarmatians seems to be Scythians. So, they probably were doninantly R1a, but among them could have been tribes with other dominant haplogroups. E.g. Alani were likely G dominant haplogroup, as Osetians who are considered to origin from them are G dominant as well, and as there are clues that G in Iberian peninsula might be related to Alans...

    Antes on other hand might have been I2a2...Their tribal name seems to be derived from the name of Paplagonia Eneti, same as name of Veneti is derived from Eneti.... Pahplagonia Eneti were pushed out from Asia minor to Europe in times after Troyan wars... it is known that they dwelled in Thracia for a while and than settled in Adriatic...

    ....at the present time, they say, there are no Eneti to be seen in Paphlagonia, though some say that there is a village12 on the Aegialus13 ten schoeni14 distant from Amastris. But Zenodotus writes "from Enete,"15 and says that Homer clearly indicates the Amisus of today. And others say that a tribe called Eneti, bordering on the Cappadocians, made an expedition with the Cimmerians and then were driven out to the Adriatic Sea.16 But the thing upon which there is general agreement is, that the Eneti, to whom Pylaemenes belonged, were the most notable tribe of the Paphlagonians, and that, furthermore, these made the expedition with him in very great numbers, but, losing their leader, crossed over to Thrace after the capture of Troy, and on their wanderings went to the Enetian country,17 as it is now called. According to some writers, Antenor and his children took part in this expedition and settled at the recess of the Adriatic, as mentioned by me in my account of Italy.18 It is therefore reasonable to suppose that it was on this account that the Eneti disappeared and are not to be seen in Paphlagonia. [9]
    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...thracian,eneti
    (Strabo)


    Thus, in east Europe we do have large substratum of R1a due to Scythians and partially also due to Sarmatians.

    East Europe is called Sarmatia, but that doesnot mean that all tribes living there are Sarmatian in origin. Same is with north part of west Europe that was called Germania, which doesnot imply that all tribes of Germania were Germanic in origin.

    Notable example for this are tribes bearing names derived from Eneti: Vistula Veneti, Antes, and Adriatic Veneti. They live in Germania, on Adriatic coast and north of Caspian sea, which are probably settlements in 3 directions took by Eneti after crossing from Asia minor to Thrace.

    Roman historian Pliny the Elder in Natural History (Liber IV: 96-97) mentions a tribe called Sarmatian Venedi (Latin Sarmatae Venedi). Subsequently, Tacitus in Germania (46) mentions Venethi; when comparing these to Germani and Sarmatae, however, Tacitus associates them with the former, stating that their habits are different from those of the Sarmatae.
    In 2nd century AD, Ptolemy in his work De Geographia (III 5. 21.) mentions a people called Ouenedai along the southern shores of the Baltic, which he calls the Venedic Bay.
    The historical document Tabula Peutingeriana, originating from the 4th century AD, separately mentions the Venedi along the Black Sea and the Venadi Sarmatae north of the Carpathians (see Gołąb 1992: 287-291, 295-296).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti

    in fact, if we look at variance of I2a2, it is not strongest among Serbs and Croats, but in Slovenia (wider area of Adriatic Veneti settlement) and north of Black sea (wider area of Antes settlement)

    If we look for locations of I2a* we find only 2 clusters of it:
    I2a*-P37.2-Alpine in Veneto matching position of Adriatic Veneti
    I2a*-P37.2-France in Brittanny matching position of Celtic Veneti
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap


    Who are Slavs? From what previous tribe(s) their origin?

    in the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean.
    Jordanes- origin and deeds of Goths
    http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

    This suggests that early Slavs are of Veneti race, thus I2a2 dominantly. This is populous race, scattered in many tribes but chief are: Sclaveni and Antes.
    Antes were living in Sarmatia and were considered Sarmatian. But their origin is same as the one for Adriatic Veneti and Vistula Veneti - they origin from Eneti.



    Slavs originally appear in following areas





    This, in fact matches pretty good spread of I2a2 with assumption that big part of west most wing of the spread did move to Balkans, which would match historically attested movmements of Serbs and Croats.





    R1a on other hand shows no resemblance to shapes of early Slavs state...
    Thus, this R1a comes from other peoples (of Scythian and Sarmatian origin) who were culturally assimilated in Slavs....




    we can see people who dominantly originate from Veneti in same cluster in this picture:


    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11...an-y-strs.html
    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT...trclusters.png

    Veneti living both in Germania and Sarmatia, and Britanny, as well as related I2a1 present in south Europe could indicate that I2 was original carrier of proto-indo-European language...
    which would explain weird saying that exists in Serbia "Speak Serbian so that the whole world understands you"

    As for Croats, I think proto-Croats were Sarmatians, carriers of R1a with some G...they settled among Veneti in Carpathian mountains, accepted language, and formed big state of white Croatia...On other hand on the route between Adriatic Veneti and Celtic Veneti are Helvetti which could have been proto-Croat related people as well...

    proto-Serbs are also still enigma...same as proto-Croats they could origin from Sarmatians who settled among Veneti, or could be Veneti in origin.
    In addition they could have also been separrate group of people that Seneca calls Serians...

    [369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.
    Seneca - Thyestes
    27. i.e. the frozen surface.
    28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

    http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

    Engima that perhaps genetics can resolve by looking in deeper subclades is potential relation of Serbs to Serboi from Caspian mountains, and to Pashtun Sarbans... as Sarbans do perfectly match spread of haplogroup I in that area, making big part of the arc of Serians from northwest China (Seres) to India...

    Seres (Gr. Σῆρες, Lat. Sērēs) was the ancient Greek and Roman name for the inhabitants of eastern Central Asia, but could also extend to a number of other Asian people in a wide arc from China to India.[1] It meant "of silk," or people of the "land where silk comes from." The country of the Seres was Serica.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres






    Another enigma related to Serbs is that R1a in Serbia is ancient old, but not high in frequency... Compared to surroundings in Serbia is also unexpectedly high I1 component, and unexpectedly low R1b (more would be expected as previous inhabitants were Celtic Scordisci) , also there is some N which seems as displaced compared to suroundings that doesnot have N...

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by YLLIRJANIngaYLLIRIA View Post
    Only about 30% of Croats, 45% of Bosniaks, and 20% of Serbs belong to the haplogroup I which was the dominant (NOT the only one, but the dominant) Illyrian Y Chromosone.

    The rest are foreign to the balkans, mostly slavic which belong to haplogroup R1a (which is found in most slavic countries like Russian and Poland)

    Bosnians are the ones who posses the most indegenous Y DNA in the balkans (besides the people who were already indegenous like Albanians and Romanians) because about half of Bosnia is slavicized Illyrian Albanians.


    Like the Serb said in a post a few above mine, the main Illyrian haplogroups were I2a2 and E1b which are 2 of the main 3 Albanian haplogroups, which proves it all.
    For the Serbs this is not the exact data, I haplogroup in Serbia is 47,97%.

    You can read:

    Mirabal Sheyla et al,"Human Y-chromosome short tandem repeats: A tale of acculturation and migrations as mechanisms for the diffusion of agriculture in the Balkan Peninsula", American Journal of Physical Antropology, Volume 142, Issue 3, pages 380-390, July 2010

    Serbia

    I1: 7,8%
    I2b1: 1,67%
    I2a2: 38,5%

    Total I: 47,97%

    Other haplogroups Serbia:

    R1a: 14,5%
    R1b: 4,5%
    E1b1b: 17,3%
    J1: 0,6%
    J2a: 3,3%
    J2b: 1,7%
    G2a: 2,2%
    N: 3,3%
    Q: 1,7%
    H: 2,2%
    L: 0,6%

    Even take into account that Serbia populated by ethnic minorities (about 17%), it is clear that the I haplogroup is by far the dominant among the Serbs.


    To whether the Illyrians originally I2 or E1b1b there are different opinions. On the Albanian sites can be seen that all the Illyrian tribes, including those in the region of today's Slavonia, considered as the ancestors of today's Albanians. Y-DNA researchs will actually be able to determine which tribes were I2 which E1b1b, but it is possible that the very notion of Illyrians be replaced, at least for part of the population (in the south of Western Balkan for E1b1b or in the north of Western Balkan for I2), and it appears a new term.

  24. #124
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    Smile Wend vs. Vlakh

    Thanks for this overwhelming amount of information, I learn a lot from you guys!

    Now just a few points that I would like to clarify:

    1) Veneds/Wends was the name used by the German tribesmen for all their Slavic neighbors. At the time of the German-Slavic coexistence on the fringes of the Roman Empire the Slavs and the Baltic populations were not yet separated, thus all the Balto-Slavic tribes were Wends for Germans. This word is probably a germanized derivative from Anty=Antes.

    So who do we find among the descendants of these Wends? Lusatian Sorbs who call themselves Luzhckie Serby (yes they do) and whose Y haplotype is mainly R1a despite their long coexistence with their German neighbours.

    And where did these Veneds/Wends/Anty live? Mainly on the territory of the modern day Eastern Germany where R1a is a very frequent Y haplotype.

    Thus it looks that R1a was indeed the marker haplotype of the Slavic populations at the time of the Wends as it is now (in ancient cities of Russia: Suzdal, Jaroslavl', Vladimir R1a amounts to nearly 80% of the male population).

    2) Welshes was the name used by the German tribesmen to describe their romanized neighbors, usually Celts, but also other populations acculturated and romanized under the rule of the Roman Empire.

    3)Vlasy/Vlakhy/Vlachs/Valakhy is the term derived by the Slavs from the German's Welshes to describe the non-latin or non-greek citizens of Roman Empire and Byzantium with which the Slavs had a frequent contact in the border territories between Slavic lands and the Empires territory.

    4) At the time of Slavic migration to the ravaged and depopulated lands of the Roman and Byzantine empires the romanized citizens of the border provinces were mainly of Celtic, Dacian, Thracian, Illyrian ancestry. So the Vlakhy are then these indigenous populations which have been romanized and then put into (forced) contact with the Slavic tribesmen which arrived to their lands. That is why the Romanian populations of present day Romania and Moldova (to name just these two territories) were called Valakhy in Russian even in XIX century and Moldavia was called Valakhia.

    And what is the territory on which I2 haplogroup is the most frequently found? It is the territory on which lived the so-called Vlakhy= the territory of the romanized populations conquered and colonized by the Slavs.

    So R1a is the marker for Slavs and I2 is the marker for Vlachs.

    And Balkanic people are very often Vlakhs, which have acquired Slavic language and culture from the Slavic settlers during the fall of the Roman-Byzantine Empire.

    Finally, in my humble opinion there is really nothing wrong with being a Vlach, these peoples are the natives of the lands which they inhabit now, they had a great and tumultuous history and they deserve a great deal of respect.Of course it is even better when you are a slavized Vlakh, this way you combine the best of both...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenati View Post
    1) Veneds/Wends was the name used by the German tribesmen for all their Slavic neighbors. At the time of the German-Slavic coexistence on the fringes of the Roman Empire the Slavs and the Baltic populations were not yet separated, thus all the Balto-Slavic tribes were Wends for Germans. This word is probably a germanized derivative from Anty=Antes.

    So who do we find among the descendants of these Wends? Lusatian Sorbs who call themselves Luzhckie Serby (yes they do) and whose Y haplotype is mainly R1a despite their long coexistence with their German neighbours.

    And where did these Veneds/Wends/Anty live? Mainly on the territory of the modern day Eastern Germany where R1a is a very frequent Y haplotype.

    Thus it looks that R1a was indeed the marker haplotype of the Slavic populations at the time of the Wends as it is now (in ancient cities of Russia: Suzdal, Jaroslavl', Vladimir R1a amounts to nearly 80% of the male population).
    I agree large part of R1a was Slavic, especially ancestors of todays Western Slavs. I was trying to determine the correct position of this people in the antiquity but I was misleaded by those who ascribed Przeworsk culture to Germanic Vandals. This is why I placed R1a more to the North in one of the earlier posts. Later I investigated this further and I believe that Vandals may have been a part of this culture, but main bearers seem to be R1a people. So in general this point of yours seems Ok. This also means R1a was between Germanic tribes and I2a2a-Dinaric in the first centuries of common era.

    But your conclusion about Vlachs and I2a2 is very week in arguments. In contains neither genetic analysis, nor essential historical determinants. That is no way to prove what was the homeland of I2a2a Dinaric, or was it Slavic or not. I'm a bit tired of repeating the same sentences so I will leave you with what you want to believe. There is a number of people here and in some other forums understanding the story about I2a2a Dinaric and it is enough for me.

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