Sarmatians, Serbs, Croats and I2a2

hrvat22 is a same-titled ignorant trell from Croatian "Forum.hr". He does not know the difference between terms haplogroup (SNP) and haplotype (STR), he believes that Dinaric-South and Dinaric-North haplotypes are outdated terms related to nomenclature like I1, EU7 not in use anymore because he, literally, cannot find "Dinaric-South" on the phylogenetic tree at ISOGG, while repeatedly calling I-S17250 and other haplogroups as haplotypes. When citing YFull he does not how to cite it properly nor knows the difference between "formed age" and "TMRCA", hence considering that I-PH908 is older than I-S17250. He is basically spamming the threads with delusional and chauvinistic idea, see previous page, that the I-S17250 is "indefensible and ultimately", "exclusively", "forever and irrefutably" White Croatian mutation i.e. that all Slavs are of (White) Croatian origin, irrelevant the fact that the majority of South Slavs (including Croats) belong to Dinaric-South cluster and SNP I-PH908 (although until now was not found a single ancient sample to confirm such White Croatian hypothesis nor current age estimation support it), while the vast majority of I-S17250 is being made by Dinaric-North cluster and haplogroups. He is practically propagating an extremist pro-Croatian perspective in revolt to the extremist pro-Serbian perspective about I-PH908, but he expanded it to the I-S17250 also.

This is a father I2a1b2a1a1aS17250/YP204

This is a son ​I2a1b2a1a1a3PH908

Therefore son can not be older than father, this is logic.

https://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html


Russian geneticist I. Rozhansky says:2013/10/18 translation from Russian ...
Croats haplogroup R1a is represented almost exclusively by the Central Eurasian subcommittee Z280 (as in Eastern Slavs and Carpathians). And Croats, Slovenians, and as, most likely, Serbs dominate several branches of affiliates that have the common denominator of the Sneap CTS3402. the geography of these branches is such that it is possible to trace its path from the Carpathian side to the Adriatic. The same can be said about the "Dinarides" subsidiary subclades I2a1b. Obviously, White Croats and Croats from the Carpathians to the Adriatic are really close peoples. It can not be said about Lužičani Serbs and Danubian Serbs - they are too different in the line.

http://pereformat.ru/2013/10/kolybel-evropejskoj-civilizacii/

the principal determining event that allowed I2a1b-L621 to become a major Eastern European lineage was probably the Slavic migrations from the 6th to the 9th century CE.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

In 2010 has Ken Nordtvedt argued that I-L69.2 is too young not to have been a result of a sudden expansion. According to him I2a1b1 arose not earlier than 2500 years ago in Eastern Europe. He has presumed this to be a consequence from the Slavic invasion of the Balkans, from the area north-east of the Carpathians since 500 CE. In 2011 Nordtvedt has confirmed I-L69.2 is not older than 2,800 years. In his last comments about Haplogroup I tree and the conjectured spread map, he locates the start of the I-L69.2 lineage around the middle course of the Vistula.

So far, most or all of those who are negative for S17250 have patrilineage
originating near the Carpathians, particularly southeastern Poland and
extreme western Ukraine. That pattern may change with more sampling, of
course Date: 20 May 2014.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2014-05/1400615460
White Croats are group of Slavic tribes who lived among other West and East Slavic tribes in the area of Bohemia, Lesser Poland, Galicia (north of Carpathian Mountains) and Western Ukraine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats

The second haplotype of Croats R1a Z280 CTS3402 also has a high frequency in southern Poland but for now it does not know the source of the same ... probably in southern Poland but it needs to be determined.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewe...zg&ll=56.61052576313754,47.67232000000001&z=2

http://www.waughfamily.ca/Ancient/Tree and Map for Hg I.pdf


Since genetics only confirms arrival of the Croat to the Balkans(written record from the 10th), the only logical conclusion is that mutation I-S17250 is White Croatian origin and everyone behind this mutation are White Croatian origin.

This is logic and logic is stronger than steel.
 
hrvat22, you're a pathological liar. You were literally writing that PH908 is older than S17250 because you compared YFull PH908 "formed age/TMRCA" with S17250 "TMRCA" YBP, as well you are recycling one and the same quotes, again and again, it became spam, while your consideration that "everyone behind this mutation are White Croatian origin" is nothing but chauvinistic lunacy. You should receive an infraction.
 
hrvat22, you're a pathological liar. You were literally writing that PH908 is older than S17250 because you compared YFull PH908 "formed age/TMRCA" with S17250 "TMRCA" YBP, as well you are recycling one and the same quotes, again and again, it became spam, while your consideration that "everyone behind this mutation are White Croatian origin" is nothing but chauvinistic lunacy. You should receive an infraction.

Since genetics only confirms arrival of the Croat to the Balkans(written record from the 10th), the only logical conclusion is that mutation I-S17250 is White Croatian origin and everyone behind this mutation are White Croatian origin.

All that I have quoted historical record nor genetics challenged, logically leads to conclusion that I'm telling truth and that you lie.

Regarding experimental Ytree and age of some subclade this is not relevant, only what is officially relevant is https://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html

And there is written that subclade I2a1b2a1a1aS17250/YP204 is older than subclade ​I2a1b2a1a1a3PH908. End of story.
 
From White Croatia to Croatia comes Croats.
This is logic.

From White Croatia to Croatia comes Turkmens.
This is not logic.

From White Croatia and areas in White Croatia with a Turkmen national minority to Croatia comes Turkmens.
This is logic.

From White Croatia to Croatia comes Bosniaks.
This is not logic.

And because it is not logical it is not true either.

If there was no logic then to the Balkans from White Croatia comes Dukljans, Tribals, Dalmatians, Bosnians, Morlachs, Vlachs, Croats, Rascians, Paganians, Zahumians, Zetas, Montenegrins, Slavs, Serbs,Travunians..

Let's just keep up the logic...it's a lot healthier.
 
The premises need to be correct !

Today, scientists agree that the name Croat is not of Old Slav origin; many linguists believe that the name Croat is of Old Iranian origin. The oldest known record of the Croatian name was found in the written documents of the Mittannian-Hurrian King Tusratta (circa 1420-1400 BC) who called himself the Great King and the King of the Mittanni. He called his kingdom Huravat Ehillaku - Croatian Kingdom. The present name HRVAT devolved from the name H(u)R(a)VAT over the next two thousand years.

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesEurope/EasternCroatiaName.htm

A valid argument moves from premises to conclusions in a logical and consistent manner. Needless to say the premises need to be correct otherwise the argument may be “valid” but not represent reality or “truth”.
https://www.quora.com/How-do-a-genuine-argument-and-a-pseudo-argument-differ

"Slavic ethnicity is therefore shown to be a Byzantine invention."

http://www.limesromanus.org/sites/all/files/The Making of the Slavs.pdf

The origin of the Croats before the great migration of the Slavs is uncertain.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_hypotheses_of_the_Croats'

The Avar, also known as Avar-Bulgarian, Bulgarian or Turkic theory, dates to the late 19th and early 20th century when John Bagnell Bury noted the similarity between Croatian legend of five brothers (and two sisters) with Bulgarian legend of Kubrat's five sons.[13] He considered that the White Croats' Chrobatos and Bulgars' Kubrat were the same person from the Bulgars ethnic group, as well derived the Croatian title Ban from the personal name of Avar khagan Bayan I and Kubrat's son Batbayan.[13]

https://books.google.se/books?id=h_...AoQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=Horvat kubrat&f=false
 
The premises need to be correct !

Today, scientists agree that the name Croat is not of Old Slav origin; many linguists believe that the name Croat is of Old Iranian origin. The oldest known record of the Croatian name was found in the written documents of the Mittannian-Hurrian King Tusratta (circa 1420-1400 BC) who called himself the Great King and the King of the Mittanni. He called his kingdom Huravat Ehillaku - Croatian Kingdom. The present name HRVAT devolved from the name H(u)R(a)VAT over the next two thousand years.

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesEurope/EasternCroatiaName.htm

A valid argument moves from premises to conclusions in a logical and consistent manner. Needless to say the premises need to be correct otherwise the argument may be “valid” but not represent reality or “truth”.
https://www.quora.com/How-do-a-genuine-argument-and-a-pseudo-argument-differ

"Slavic ethnicity is therefore shown to be a Byzantine invention."

http://www.limesromanus.org/sites/all/files/The Making of the Slavs.pdf

The origin of the Croats before the great migration of the Slavs is uncertain.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_hypotheses_of_the_Croats'

The Avar, also known as Avar-Bulgarian, Bulgarian or Turkic theory, dates to the late 19th and early 20th century when John Bagnell Bury noted the similarity between Croatian legend of five brothers (and two sisters) with Bulgarian legend of Kubrat's five sons.[13] He considered that the White Croats' Chrobatos and Bulgars' Kubrat were the same person from the Bulgars ethnic group, as well derived the Croatian title Ban from the personal name of Avar khagan Bayan I and Kubrat's son Batbayan.[13]

https://books.google.se/books?id=h_...AoQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=Horvat kubrat&f=false

But main haplotype in Croats still comes from White Croatia. You did not deny genetic arrival of Croats and only Croats to Balkans.
Everything else is logic.
 
"But main haplotype in Croats still comes from White Croatia."


Can you show some proof,please?
 
"But main haplotype in Croats still comes from White Croatia."


Can you show some proof,please?

In 2010 has Ken Nordtvedt argued that I-L69.2 is too young not to have been a result of a sudden expansion. According to him I2a1b1 arose not earlier than 2500 years ago in Eastern Europe. He has presumed this to be a consequence from the Slavic invasion of the Balkans, from the area north-east of the Carpathians since 500 CE. In 2011 Nordtvedt has confirmed I-L69.2 is not older than 2,800 years. In his last comments about Haplogroup I tree and the conjectured spread map, he locates the start of the I-L69.2 lineage around the middle course of the Vistula.

http://www.waughfamily.ca/Ancient/Tree and Map for Hg I.pdf

So far, most or all of those who are negative for S17250 have patrilineage
originating near the Carpathians, particularly southeastern Poland and
extreme western Ukraine. That pattern may change with more sampling, of
course Date: 20 May 2014.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2014-05/1400615460

Russian geneticist I. Rozhansky says:2013/10/18 translation from Russian ...
Croats haplogroup R1a is represented almost exclusively by the Central Eurasian subcommittee Z280 (as in Eastern Slavs and Carpathians). And Croats, Slovenians, and as, most likely, Serbs dominate several branches of affiliates that have the common denominator of the Sneap CTS3402. the geography of these branches is such that it is possible to trace its path from the Carpathian side to the Adriatic. The same can be said about the "Dinarides" subsidiary subclades I2a1b. Obviously, White Croats and Croats from the Carpathians to the Adriatic are really close peoples. The Serbs and the Danubian Serbs can not say that they are too different from the vines ...

http://pereformat.ru/2013/10/kolybel-evropejskoj-civilizacii/

White Croats were a group of Slavic tribes who lived among other West and East Slavic tribes in the area of Bohemia, Lesser Poland, Galicia (north of Carpathian Mountains) and Western Ukraine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats

Over a thousand years ago, the land of Slavs, known as Great or White Croatia, existed in the Carpathian area. In the archives of the Vatican archives, short Greek records were created, dating back to the 1330s at the latest. They reported that between the cities of Galicia and Volodymyr the city of Stolsky - the residence of the Galician metropolis.

https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Стільсько

In this article author describes archaeological excavations in the town of Stiljsko in Ukraine, which enabled researchers to reconstruct some aspects of historical and cultural development in this region during the early middle ages. On the basis of these revelations author points up that in the ninth century there existed one of the greatest fortifi ed settlements of Croats in the eastern-Karpatian region.

Stiljsko ..From 6. until 9th century of this micro-region in intercourse
rivers Barvinka, Ilovac, Kolodnica and
The Zubre, which is left by Dnjistra,
gave insight into existence in 9th century one
of the largest in East Carpatian
region with a strong fortified Croatian
city. Its fortified area
it is almost 250 ha long and the length of the defenses
the line reaches 10 km. Around
on a site of 200 km2
.
there were numerous Croatian sites
VI.-XI. (naseobine, gradina, grobi-
what, cult centers). Found rich
Archaeological material proves that it was old
Croatian township functioned in
time from the middle of the IX. to the beginning of XI

Scientific journals of the Croatian republic

https://hrcak.srce.hr/index.php?show=clanak&id_clanak_jezik=17599

Toponyms in Croatia from Carpathians, one of seven pages

http://www.kapitaltrade.hr/wp-content/uploads/Toponimi-s-Karpata.jpg

Family of father White Croatian subclade I-S17250 in south Poland

I-CTS10228

Subgroup: I2a2 'Dinaric' ..L621>CTS10228>S20602/YP196

Gmina Dębica, Poland

Dębica ([dɛmˈbit͡sa]; Yiddish: דעמביץ‎ Dembitz) is a city in southeastern Poland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dębicahttps://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap

I2a1b-L621 to become a major Eastern European lineage was probably the Slavic migrations from the 6th to the 9th century CE.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

The Croatian R1a-Y2608 also expanded from Poland during the same period,

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

The second haplotype of Croats R1a Z280 CTS3402 also has a high frequency in southern Poland but for now it does not know the source of the same ... probably in southern Poland but it is still to be determined

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?hl=en&mid=1uIEV-Unzie9mLufrQJyWb4fD9zg

Russian conclusion...The privileged presence of the haplogroup of I2a Croats, as well as the past molecular genetic studies of settlements of the group area in the 6-7th century, archeological and historical data indicate that I2a belonged mainly to tribes of Croats,
http://tatur.su/history/novyiy-vzgl...ealogiya-i-istoriko-arheologicheskim-dannyim/
 
1)According to Porphirogenetus, 'Serb' was just a social status('servants'). Why do you always leave out that favorite part of mine?
2)Vlachs are an ethnic group, so yes,a good part of the 'Serbs' who came with Turks are of non-Serbian and non-Slavic origin.

Exactly, i fully agree with you.
 
It is true that in Serbians mutation I-PH908 is White Croatian origin and comes to Roman Dalmatia with Croats who later became Serbs and others.

How laymen produce "evidence" but it is for fun.

Laymen sometimes seem to know better than experts but that's because they have touched some matter superficially and do not have enough knowledge about the subject.

According historian scientists Croatian identity emerged in 9th or 10th century in Dalmatia and surrounding.

Experts from Institute of Medieval Research, Vienna, a department of the Austrian Academy of Science, especially Dr Francesco Borri, explained in scientific papers about De Administrando Imperio, narrative and legendary parts, and motives of Eastern Roman emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos for creating alliance with Croats against Bulgarians.

Dr Francesco Borri:

"The migration, although becoming an important element in nationalist thought, is not confirmed by any other source, neither contemporary, nor later, being reported only by Constantine. I propose that the migration was instead a literary pattern deployed by the emperor in order to explain the complex developments which brought a new elite, called Croats, to a leading position in tenth-century Dalmatia."

"What we can affirm with a degree of certainty is that Constantine lent importance to the Croats because he thought they might make good allies against the Bulgars, and he wanted to bring this dynamic, recently formed group to the attention of his successor. The emperor, however, expressed this judgement in a text destined to have a very poor circulation, dedicating to the Croats much less space in writings reaching a wider audience. Moreover, Constantine’s predictions never came about, and the Croats did not become a leading power in the Balkans. The same emperor stated that the amazing military power of the Croats was in decline at the time he was writing, which is perhaps a trace of the difficulties that the group was experiencing in affirming itself."
 
hrvat22, you're a pathological liar. You were literally writing that PH908 is older than S17250 because you compared YFull PH908 "formed age/TMRCA" with S17250 "TMRCA" YBP, as well you are recycling one and the same quotes, again and again, it became spam, while your consideration that "everyone behind this mutation are White Croatian origin" is nothing but chauvinistic lunacy. You should receive an infraction.

He doesn't recognize science, he considers worthless scientists of Institute of Medieval Research, Vienna, a department of the Austrian Academy of Science, and all other scientists, including Croatian scientists.

What would have been without scientists, experts, specialists when someone is sick if he or she would go to doctor or witch doctor.

If someone thinks that knows more than scientists, he or she should write and publish a scientific paper in a relevant scientific journal where he or she will refute, with proofs of his or her hypothesis, the existing evidence of science, forums can not help.
 
Garrick, you are making the same mistake as Hrvat22, as in thread "I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians", you give those scientists viewpoint undue weight and validity although it represents a minority viewpoint.
 
He doesn't recognize science, he considers worthless scientists of Institute of Medieval Research, Vienna, a department of the Austrian Academy of Science, and all other scientists, including Croatian scientists.

What would have been without scientists, experts, specialists when someone is sick if he or she would go to doctor or witch doctor.

If someone thinks that knows more than scientists, he or she should write and publish a scientific paper in a relevant scientific journal where he or she will refute, with proofs of his or her hypothesis, the existing evidence of science, forums can not help.

This is penicillin for you.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31539-Genetics-confirm-migration-of-White-Croats-to-Croatia

You do not exist here.
 
I2a2 does not exist in Serbs and Croats so this thread is pointless.

Haplogroup-I2b.gif


Mods, can you close this thread or change its pointless title?
 
I2a2 does not exist in Serbs and Croats so this thread is pointless. Mods, can you close this thread or change its pointless title?

It does exist, however, what I2a2 meant at the time but since then nomenclature changed and it does not mean the same haplogroup branch anymore. It definitely needs a change of title.
 
Around 19.2% of the males from Croatia are R-Y2613-Y2608, so we could atribute it to white croatian migrations(might been the highest haplo in white croatians).
It isnt a presunption, one study found it.
Also, the majority of this linage was found in Southeastern Poland, the historical area related to white croatians.
 
onlinelibrary. wiley. com /doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876
Just see it, well proved, White Croatians might carried mostly R1a-Y2613, some I2 and other R1a linages too.
 

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