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Thread: origin of people of Scotland and northeast Ireland

  1. #1
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    origin of people of Scotland and northeast Ireland

    tribes in UK

    01: Caledones
    02: Taexali
    03: Carvetii
    04: Venicones
    05: Epidii
    06: Damnonii
    07: Novantae
    08: Selgovae
    09: Votadini
    10: Brigantes
    11: Parisi
    12: Cornovii
    13: Deceangli
    14: Ordovices
    15: Corieltauvi
    16: Iceni
    17: Demetae
    18: Catuvellauni
    19: Silures
    20: Dubunni
    21: Dumnonii
    22: Durotriges
    23: Belgae
    24: Atrebates
    25: Regni
    26: Cantiaci
    27: Trinovantes

    Caledonia is the Latin name given by the Romans to the land in today's Scotland north of their province of Britannia, beyond the frontier of their empire. Modern use is as a romantic or poetic name for Scotland as a whole.
    Original usage
    The original use of the name, by Tacitus, Ptolemy, Lucan and Pliny the Elder, referred to the area (or parts of the area) also known as Pictavia or Pictland north of the Antonine Wall in today's Scotland.[1] The name may be related to that of a Pictish tribe, the Caledonii, one amongst several in the area, though perhaps the dominant tribe which would explain the binomial Caledonia/Caledonii. Their name can be found in Dùn Chailleann, the Scottish Gaelic word for the town of Dunkeld meaning "fort of the Caledonii", and in that of the mountain Sìdh Chailleann or Schiehallion, the "fairy [hill] of the Caledonians". According to Historia Brittonum the site of the seventh battle of the mythical Arthur was a forest in what is now Scotland, called Coit Celidon in early Welsh. Traces of such mythology have endured until today in Midlothian: near the town centre of Edinburgh stands an old volcanic mountain called Arthur's Seat.[2]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    I see the absence of I2a2a-Dinaric in Britain as further evidence that the Slavic migrations carried the eastern form. However, there is a relatively rare form of I2a2a called I2a2a-Disles [halfway between Isles and Dinaric] which leans slightly towards I2a2a-Dinaric, and is found mainly in Scotland. This is a bit of an enigma. Jean Manco in 'The Peopling of Europe' suggested that I2a2a-Disles came to Britain via Yamnaya bands.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpos...3&postcount=65

    yes, one of three UK I2a2-DIsles samples from familytreedna (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap ) project falls in Scotland and there is one in northeast Ireland as well. I believe they were spread by same proto-tribe

    the name Scotland might be related to Scythians... not just linguistic similarity, but also mythology and genetics of R1a and I2a2 points out to it...

    Some legends of the Picts; the Gaels; the Hungarians; Serbs and Croats (among others) also include mention of Scythian origins. In the second paragraph of the 1320 Declaration of Arbroath the élite of Scotland claim Scythia as a former homeland of the Scots.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians

    to compare Serbs and Croats have very dominant I2a2 haplogroup and significant R1a (higher in Croats)...
    the branch of I2a2 dominant among Serbs and Croats, and significant among other Slavic nations and absent in UK is named I2a2-Dinaric...

    I2a2-DIsles branch is called DIsles because it appears in both East Europe and in British Isles, unlike I2a2-Isles that is so far discovered only in UK... I2a2-DIsles in UK seems to be related to Scotland and northeast Ireland...



    We know that Scythians are R1a carriers... this is indicated by ancient DNA of Scythian warriors...

    but as a brief proof of that look at the pretty good match of Indo-Scythians with the spread of R1a


    http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Scythians

    unlike the rest of UK and Ireland there is R1a in Scotland and northeast Ireland...




    I would say that presence of R1a indicates that legend of Scythian origin is likely to be correct...


    let's go further into legend of Scythian origin of Scotish people

    The Declaration of Arbroath is a declaration of Scottish independence, made in 1320. It is in the form of a letter submitted to Pope John XXII, dated 6 April 1320, intended to confirm Scotland's status as an independent, sovereign state and defending Scotland's right to use military action when unjustly attacked.
    http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotlan...h_english.html

    from the Declaration of Arbroath:

    Most Holy Father and Lord, we know and from the chronicles and books of the ancients we find that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread renown. They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous. Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today. The Britons they first drove out, the Picts they utterly destroyed, and, even though very often assailed by the Norwegians, the Danes and the English, they took possession of that home with many victories and untold efforts; and, as the historians of old time bear witness, they have held it free of all bondage ever since. In their kingdom there have reigned one hundred and thirteen kings of their own royal stock, the line unbroken a single foreigner.
    http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotlan...h_english.html

    let's focus on stay in Iberian peninsula...

    They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous.
    http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotlan...h_english.html

    if we look at tribes in Iberia...

    at 300 BC there is still a tribe Caladuni there (this is tribal name obviously identical to Caledonii in Scotland)



    click on link bellow to zoom the map...
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...eria_300BC.svg

    in fact, next to Caladuni is tribe Seurbi, and nearby is also a tribe named Helleni

    the whole area is painted as partly Celtic, partly pre-Celtic proto-IndoEuropean

    The Seurbi were an ancient Celtic tribe of Gallaecia, living in the north of modern Portugal, in the province of Minho, between the rivers Cávado and Lima (or even reaching the river Minho).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seurbi



    anyway, according to legend Scythians first settled in Iberia (which we proved by tracing tribal name Caladuni there) and than settled in Scotland after beating Brittons and destroying Picts... I would say after defeating Picts proto-Scotish tribe of Caledonians probably settled among Picts, which is why I guess they were later also referred to as Picts... I think that initially Picts were subdued and Scythians were ruling elite, and that later names Pict and Scotish mixed up as boundaries between two merged ethnic groups disappeared......

    look at the map representing 3 different ethnic groups in uk and ireland in the mid-5th century AD, between the Roman departure and the founding of Anglo-Saxon kingdoms.

    green - Mainly Goidelic areas.
    blue - Mainly Pictish areas.
    red - Mainly Brythonic areas.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaels

    If you look at distribution of Gaelic languages in Scotland, you can see that Picts were not the carriers of that language, though some of them might have been assimilated into it...thus they were not celtic tribe originally but were partly celticized...


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaels

    Picts

    The Picts were a confederation of Celtic tribes living in what was later to become eastern and northern Scotland from before the Roman conquest of Britain until the 10th century, when they merged with the Gaels. They lived to the north of the Forth and Clyde rivers, and spoke the extinct Pictish language, thought to have been related to the Brythonic languages spoken by the Britons to the south. They are assumed to have been the descendants of the Caledonii and other tribes named by Roman historians or found on the world map of Ptolemy.
    ....
    In writings from Ireland, the name Cruthin, Cruthini, Cruthni, Cruithni or Cruithini (Modern Irish: Cruithne) was used to refer to the Picts and to a group of people who lived alongside the Ulaid in eastern Ulster.[6]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picts
    R1a in Ireland matches position of Cruithin and Darini

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darini
    later in those areas as tribal name appears Ulaids and even later area is named Ulster


    and I2a2DIsles sample in Ireland from familytreedna is from same area...

    Darini seems to have been very warlike people...
    The cognate Dari(o) ("agitation, tumult, rage") is a form widely attested in the Gaulish language, especially in personal names.[4] An example from the Welsh language is cynddaredd ("rage"). Thus the Darini may have been considered a people "of great violence", or descendants of a "God of Tumult".
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darini

    Perhaps, Darini are counterpart of Greek Dorians who gave Spartans and Macedonians, and who, as it seems, have also had dominant R1a and some I2a2

    in fact, Caledonii in Scotland and Caladuni in Iberia, while Dorian Greek settlements are Lacedaemon on Peloponnese (Sparta) and Macedon in ancient Macedonia, and all seems to have same origin, same as Ireland Darini and Greek Dorian tribal names are related...it is not just linguistic connection but also connection by common genetic origin - haplogroups R1a and I2a2....

    note also that I2a2 in Greece is also strongest in Dorian settled areas of Peloponese and ancient Macedonia... I would expect some or dominant DIsles among the I2a2 found there... btw. look also again at R1a distribution... R1a in area of antic Macedonia is much stronger than among south Slavic nations north of it (FYRM, Bulgaria, Serbia...)

    anyway, we can clearly see that mix of R1a and I2a2 is not recent... that it existed among Scythians long time ago...before a tribe from Scythia departed to Spain and from there to Scotland and northeast Ireland...

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    Firstly, as a fellow enthusiast, I appreciate the great trouble you have taken to put all this extremely interesting material together. I give you my views below.

    This is fascinating material, and the theories certainly cannot be dismissed out of hand. However, be careful with I2a2a-Disles. This is a very, very small group indeed, intermediate between I2a2b-Isles and I2a2a-Dinaric, as you correctly state, but slightly closer to Dinaric in terms of gd. So far, no examples of I2a2a-Disles have been found in eastern Europe, just Scotland and a tiny few in northern Ireland.

    Be careful too regarding R1a1. I do not have the exact figures but population geneticists regard it as effectively absent in Ireland. If we are talking about the miniscule levels of R1a1 in Northern Ireland, I would argue that the Williamite Protestant Plantations of 1600s, from England and lowland Scotland, are a more likely source.

    I note your comments about the Scythians and Picts possible connections. It can't be dismissed but as yet we can't prove it either.

    Regarding attempts to link I2a2 [old I1b] with the Picts, and specifically the Irish 'version' of the Picts- the Cruthin, you might well be onto something. However, I think that it is more likely to be L161 I2a2b-Isles rather than I2a2a-Disles that links to the Cruthin. There have been several attempts to link I2a2 with Picts/Cruthin previously:

    A] McEvoy and Bradley in 2005 conducted the 'Trinity Study', sponsored by Patrick Guinness. They found higher levels of both old I1b [I2a2] and old I1c [I2b1] in families such as Maguinness and MacArtan, which have legends of Cruthin ancestry. The sponsor, Patrick Guinness even went so far as to claim that they had, 'unmasked the Cruthin Dynasty' as hiding behind I1c [I2b1] and I1b [I2a2] in Ireland.

    B] In a later paper [2010] the same authors link I2b1a with the Cruthin, and they suggest a La Tene Celtic origin for the Cruthin.

    C] Recently [2010], Tim Owen and Ian Adamson in their Ingenta online blog, 'Genes of the Cruthin' conjecture that L161 I2a2b-Isles might link to the Cruthin. Owen sees the distribution of clades C1 and C2 of L161 I2a2b-Isles as closely following the alleged distribution of Cruthin sites in Ireland. For example, in Ulster and particularly in Rathcroghan, County Roscommon, the alleged seat of a sattelite Cruthin settlement. Owen and Adamson see the Cruthin as pre-Celtic relics of the earliest, post-LGM settlers to Ireland and Britain rather than La Tene era Celts. Owen also suggests that L161 I2a2b-Isles came to Britain/Ireland in different 'waves'. The distribution in England, for example, more likely links to the later Celts and Anglo-Saxons.

    In sum, I think you are correct in conjecturing a link between I2a2 and Pictish Cruthin groups. There is evidence above to suggest that you are not alone there. Very respectfully, I think you are wrong regarding levels of R1a1- the levels are too low and there are too many other sources for R1a1 in Scotland and Northern Ireland [Norse, Normans, Williamite Planters etc] for it to fit your Scythian theory. However, we can't rule out a Scythian connection altogether and Ian Adamson in 'The Ancient Kindred' refers to possible Scythian-Pictish connections. It is not impossible that the minute I2a2a-Disles clades link to the Cruthin, as is most likely the sub-clades C1 and C2 of I2a2b-Isles, but to reiterate, despite its closer affinity with I2a2a-Dinaric, I2a2a-Disles has not as yet been located outside of Scotland and Ireland. I2a2b-Isles has been located in Germany, France etc.

    Thanks again for a very thought-provoking posting.

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    Thanks for sharing all the information about recent attempts to find genetical links between Picts and Cruthins...


    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    This is fascinating material, and the theories certainly cannot be dismissed out of hand. However, be careful with I2a2a-Disles. This is a very, very small group indeed, intermediate between I2a2b-Isles and I2a2a-Dinaric, as you correctly state, but slightly closer to Dinaric in terms of gd. So far, no examples of I2a2a-Disles have been found in eastern Europe, just Scotland and a tiny few in northern Ireland.
    actually, you are right... I was convinced that on I2a2 project of familytree DNA, European sample of I2a2-DIsles was in Poland, but I checked again and it is in Germany...

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap

    but, I do also know that according to
    http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/Hg-I-s...DNA-order.html

    DIsles has
    for marker Dys 19 value 17,
    for 385 a|b -> 15/15
    391 -> 10
    635 -> 24

    while Dinarics north/south have
    for marker Dys 19 value 16,
    for 385 a|b -> 14/15
    391 -> 11
    635 -> 23

    in data for Serbia (table 3)
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21235/suppinfo

    385a\b (besides Dinaric 14\15) also quite commonly takes values:
    13/15, 14/14, 14/16, 15/15, 15/16, 13/16

    let's zoom in in few of 15/15 (DIsles like) samples

    e.g. sample 78 has
    Dys 19 value 17 (DIsles value)
    for 385 a|b -> 15/15 (DIsles value)
    391 -> 11 (Dinarics value)
    635 -> 23 (Dinarics value)

    sample 95 has
    Dys 19 value 16 (Dinarics value)
    for 385 a|b -> 15/15 (DIsles value)
    391 -> 10 (DIsles value)
    635 -> 22 (neither Dinarics(23) nor DIsles(24), nor Isles (21), in fact it is typical for I2a1)

    sample 64 has
    Dys 19 value 15 (value for I2a* and most of Isles branches, while not Dinarics(16) nor Disles(17) )
    for 385 a|b -> 15/15 (DIsles value)
    391 -> 11 (Dinarics value)
    635 -> 23 (Dinarics value)

    ...


    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    Be careful too regarding R1a1. I do not have the exact figures but population geneticists regard it as effectively absent in Ireland. If we are talking about the miniscule levels of R1a1 in Northern Ireland, I would argue that the Williamite Protestant Plantations of 1600s, from England and lowland Scotland, are a more likely source.
    R1a is very characteristic for Scythians, so it does seem to fit well with own legend of origin of Scotish people... of course taking into account long time from separation of Scythians and mixture with previous settlers of Iberian peninsula and Scotland, R1a cannot be too large...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    I note your comments about the Scythians and Picts possible connections. It can't be dismissed but as yet we can't prove it either.
    if part about arriving from Iberian peninsula is correct (which we can see in identical tribal names Caladuni in Iberian peninsula and Caledonii in Scotland), I would say the rest is likely to be correct as well

    btw. I also emphasized possible link between Greek Dorians, and Darins and Picts...

    can this be coincidence:

    Mid Northern Scots or Northeast Scots, popularly known as the Doric, refers to the dialects of Scots spoken in the northeast of Scotland.
    The term Doric was used to refer to all dialects of Lowland Scots but during the twentieth century it became increasingly associated with Mid Northern Scots.[1]
    The term possibly originated as a jocular reference to the Doric dialect of the Ancient Greek language. Greek Dorians lived in Sparta amongst other places, a more rural area, and were supposed by the ancient Greeks to have spoken laconically and in a language that was thought harsher in tone and more phonetically conservative than the Attic spoken in Athens. Doric Greek was used for some of the verses spoken by the chorus in Greek tragedy.
    As The Oxford Companion to English Literature explains:
    "Since the Dorians were regarded as uncivilised by the Athenians, 'Doric' came to mean 'rustic' in English, and was applied particularly to the language of Northumbria and the Lowlands of Scotland
    and also to the simplest of the three orders in architecture."[2]
    Use of the term Doric in this context may also arise out of a contrast with the anglicised speech of the Scottish capital, because at one point, Edinburgh was nicknamed 'Athens of the North'. The upper/middle class speech of Edinburgh would thus be 'Attic', making the rural areas' speech 'Doric'.[citation needed] According to another source, 18th century Scots writers like Allan Ramsay justified their use of Scots (instead of English) by comparing it to the use of Ancient Greek Doric by Theocritus.[3]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doric_dialect_(Scotland)

  4. #4
    Regular Member RH NEG-I's Avatar
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    I got my results back from the Genographic project. Apparently you don't get much in the way of detailed info here. All they can tell me is that I am Haplogroup I M170. Can anyone read anymore detail from my STR chart here? Since I am a newbee I can't post the URL untill I post a couple more comments.. I guess Ill try to post it to my profile. I am supposedly of Northern Scottish descent (Inverness).

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    Thanks for sharing all the information about recent attempts to find genetical links between Picts and Cruthins...



    actually, you are right... I was convinced that on I2a2 project of familytree DNA, European sample of I2a2-DIsles was in Poland, but I checked again and it is in Germany...

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap

    but, I do also know that according to
    http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/Hg-I-s...DNA-order.html

    DIsles has
    for marker Dys 19 value 17,
    for 385 a|b -> 15/15
    391 -> 10
    635 -> 24

    while Dinarics north/south have
    for marker Dys 19 value 16,
    for 385 a|b -> 14/15
    391 -> 11
    635 -> 23

    in data for Serbia (table 3)
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21235/suppinfo

    385a\b (besides Dinaric 14\15) also quite commonly takes values:
    13/15, 14/14, 14/16, 15/15, 15/16, 13/16

    let's zoom in in few of 15/15 (DIsles like) samples

    e.g. sample 78 has
    Dys 19 value 17 (DIsles value)
    for 385 a|b -> 15/15 (DIsles value)
    391 -> 11 (Dinarics value)
    635 -> 23 (Dinarics value)

    sample 95 has
    Dys 19 value 16 (Dinarics value)
    for 385 a|b -> 15/15 (DIsles value)
    391 -> 10 (DIsles value)
    635 -> 22 (neither Dinarics(23) nor DIsles(24), nor Isles (21), in fact it is typical for I2a1)

    sample 64 has
    Dys 19 value 15 (value for I2a* and most of Isles branches, while not Dinarics(16) nor Disles(17) )
    for 385 a|b -> 15/15 (DIsles value)
    391 -> 11 (Dinarics value)
    635 -> 23 (Dinarics value)

    ...



    R1a is very characteristic for Scythians, so it does seem to fit well with own legend of origin of Scotish people... of course taking into account long time from separation of Scythians and mixture with previous settlers of Iberian peninsula and Scotland, R1a cannot be too large...


    if part about arriving from Iberian peninsula is correct (which we can see in identical tribal names Caladuni in Iberian peninsula and Caledonii in Scotland), I would say the rest is likely to be correct as well

    btw. I also emphasized possible link between Greek Dorians, and Darins and Picts...

    can this be coincidence:



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doric_dialect_(Scotland)

    Firstly, it is a pleasure to share information with you re I2a2 and the Cruthin. You are obviously putting a lot of thought into these matters. I agree re the possibility of a link between the Greek Dorians/Darins and Picts, but possibility is all it is at this stage.

    You mention Iberia. The only I clade, in my view, that was founded in Iberia was M26 I2a1. I2a2b-Isles seems to have been founded in northern Germany. I think that I2a2a-Dinaric was likely founded in the Danube Basin. As for the tiny I2a2a-Disles...your guess is as good as mine..

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    Quote Originally Posted by RH NEG-I View Post
    I got my results back from the Genographic project. Apparently you don't get much in the way of detailed info here. All they can tell me is that I am Haplogroup I M170. Can anyone read anymore detail from my STR chart here? Since I am a newbee I can't post the URL untill I post a couple more comments.. I guess Ill try to post it to my profile. I am supposedly of Northern Scottish descent (Inverness).
    I'll have a look. Hopefully it is there.

    Just looked at your profile- doesn't seem to be there.

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    Regular Member RH NEG-I's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    I'll have a look. Hopefully it is there.

    Just looked at your profile- doesn't seem to be there.
    Just sent it to you in a private message. Thanks!

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    I had read somewhere that there is a way to determine if you are a direct descendant of the Great leader of the Macdonald Clan, Somerled, a naval commander who crushed the Vikings in the Hebrides.

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    Regular Member RH NEG-I's Avatar
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    http://dna-project.clan-donald-usa.org/DNAmain3.htm Found it!! Looks like Somerled was R1a

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    Regular Member RH NEG-I's Avatar
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    Well I am looking less and less Scottish! Can anyone make sense of my chart here??





  11. #11
    Regular Member RH NEG-I's Avatar
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    Sorry cropped my last post by accident. Here is the complete chart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RH NEG-I View Post
    Sorry cropped my last post by accident. Here is the complete chart.

    Your mini haplotype [rather short at 12 dys values- more would be useful] suggests strongly that you are a member of I1 haplotype. I have a great interest in this haplogroup myself as my Maternal Grandfather was I1. Your STR values suggest that you probably belong in one of Ken Nordtvedt's I1-Anglo-Saxon clades. From the look of it, you could feasibly be in I1-AS 4, I1-AS 9 or I1-AS 13. I1 is a very Germanic clade, and you might be of Anglo Saxon or Danish Viking origin on the Ydna line.

    I am going to reply to your private message to me, and I'll give you Ken Nordtvedt's private email. He is a pal of mine and arguably the foremost researcher of I haplogroup. I suggest that you send him your results for his expert analysis. However, I think I am right in assigning you to I1. Your values for 389a,b [12,15] are very strange though. One would normally expect 12, 28 or 12, 29 for I1 at dys 389a,b. Did you test with Oxford Ancestors? Maybe there is a conversion issue here.

    All the best

    Yorkie

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    These are my results from the Genographic project. It is very funny that I always associated myself with a Norse paradigm even though I was adopted into an Irish family...funny enough after researching my biological family via a private investigator I found that my true Sur name is Mcdonell. I am supposedly related a Scottish Highlander mercenary named "Spanish" John MacDonald from Inverness in Northern Scotland. Interestingly the Mcdonald Clan used a Norse symbol on it's shield, the Raven.

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    By the way the name "Spanish John" comes from fighting in a Spanish campaigna as a mercenary not ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    I note your comments about the Scythians and Picts possible connections. It can't be dismissed but as yet we can't prove it either.
    that's not exactly what I was saying...

    according to above mentioned legend of origin of Scotish nobles, Picts were already there when they arrived... since there is in Iberia a tribe matching their legend of origin (Caladuni), I think their settlement was Caledonii tribe, and that their power extended over Picts as well
    in 400 Ad we can see separate locations of Picts and Caledonii

    this is Picts position in 400 AD
    http://www.euratlas.net/history/euro...tity_9739.html

    while Calledonii are in same year north and south of west most Picts..
    http://www.euratlas.net/history/euro...ity_15160.html

    I think that Calledonii did conquer lands of Picts, and for a long time also Picts settlement counted among Calledonii... but those are people of different origin... legend of Scythian origin is related to Caledonii only...
    I believe I2a-Disles might be related to Calledonii..

    however, I would add that you are probably right concerning R1a
    the following detailed map of R1a spread does in fact show that R1a is actually not in the position of Caledonii, but all around it, supporting idea that this R1a is not related to legend of Scythian origin of Scotish people (as Caledonii are the tribe related to the legend, and R1a lacks exactly in their place of settlement)... R1a there might indeed be due to Vikings..


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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    that's not exactly what I was saying...

    according to above mentioned legend of origin of Scotish nobles, Picts were already there when they arrived... since there is in Iberia a tribe matching their legend of origin (Caladuni), I think their settlement was Caledonii tribe, and that their power extended over Picts as well
    in 400 Ad we can see separate locations of Picts and Caledonii

    this is Picts position in 400 AD
    http://www.euratlas.net/history/euro...tity_9739.html

    while Calledonii are in same year north and south of west most Picts..
    http://www.euratlas.net/history/euro...ity_15160.html

    I think that Calledonii did conquer lands of Picts, and for a long time also Picts settlement counted among Calledonii... but those are people of different origin... legend of Scythian origin is related to Caledonii only...
    I believe I2a-Disles might be related to Calledonii..

    however, I would add that you are probably right concerning R1a
    the following detailed map of R1a spread does in fact show that R1a is actually not in the position of Caledonii, but all around it, supporting idea that this R1a is not related to legend of Scythian origin of Scotish people (as Caledonii are the tribe related to the legend, and R1a lacks exactly in their place of settlement)... R1a there might indeed be due to Vikings..

    It is possible that I2a2a-Disles might relate to the Caledonians. After all, this tiny clade's hotspot is in Scotland rather than Ireland.

    Glad you agree re a mainly Norse Viking connection for the bulk of R1a1. The distribution of R1a1 in Britain closely mirrors that of Norwegian Viking settlement. The rest will have been brought by Normans, Danes and Anglo-Saxons.

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    btw. not some source worth quoting, but somewhat interesting data:

    178 words in Welsh and 134 words in Scotch-Gaelic were found to be present in modern South Slavic languages. These words were determined to be borrowings based on recognizable sound shifts and lack of parallels in other European languages with Indo-European roots.
    http://orca.byu.edu/Journals/2003%20...um/gashler.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    btw. not some source worth quoting, but somewhat interesting data:


    http://orca.byu.edu/Journals/2003%20...um/gashler.pdf
    That is very interesting indeed. Maybe there is a Scotland-Slavic link via I2a2a-Disles? There is no doubt whatsoever that I2a2a-Disles is closer to I2a2a-Dinaric than it is to L161 I2a2b-Isles, plus 'Disles' is negative for L161 just like the eastern 'Dinaric'. It certainly makes one think. Again, 'Disles' has a distribution very different to 'Isles'. 'Isles' stretches from Germany/Polish border to include France, England, Scotland, Ireland. Whilst to my knowledge, 'Disles' has, as yet, just Scottish and Irish members. Scotland is the real hotspot. If we could find some 'Disles' further east that would be very, very interesting indeed.

    By the way, when I say a 'Scotland-Slavic' link, I must qualify what I mean. I do not consider the eastern I2a2 to be 'Slavic', as it predates the Slavs. What I mean is that I2a2a-Dinaric has been carried by Slavs though it is not intrinsically 'Slavic'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    By the way, when I say a 'Scotland-Slavic' link, I must qualify what I mean. I do not consider the eastern I2a2 to be 'Slavic', as it predates the Slavs. What I mean is that I2a2a-Dinaric has been carried by Slavs though it is not intrinsically 'Slavic'.
    agreed, those shared words might come from some I2a2 specific vocabulary... as they are absent in Slavic lands that are not dominantly I2a2...

    Slavic language likely arose as a mix of languages of R1a speakers and I2a2 speakers... perhaps with stronger influence of R1a as more R1a people participated... however, south Slavs as dominantly I2a2 did still preserve some words that didnot spread among all Slavic speakers...

    alternative, perhaps more likely, explanations would be that words come to south Slavs via previous Celtic and Illyrian folk, and that Scotish tribe of Calledoni did start their voyage to Iberia and Scotland from somewhere in Balkans...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    agreed, those shared words might come from some I2a2 specific vocabulary... as they are absent in Slavic lands that are not dominantly I2a2...

    Slavic language likely arose as a mix of languages of R1a speakers and I2a2 speakers... perhaps with stronger influence of R1a as more R1a people participated... however, south Slavs as dominantly I2a2 did still preserve some words that didnot spread among all Slavic speakers...

    alternative, perhaps more likely, explanations would be that words come to south Slavs via previous Celtic and Illyrian folk, and that Scotish tribe of Calledoni did start their voyage to Iberia and Scotland from somewhere in Balkans...
    Interesting. Did you know that Spencer Wells of the National Geographic Project sees 'I1b' [old name for I2a2] as linked to the Celtic migrations?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    Interesting. Did you know that Spencer Wells of the National Geographic Project sees 'I1b' [old name for I2a2] as linked to the Celtic migrations?
    No, but that makes sense...

    because when I look at family tree dna, there are only two samples of I2a* - one matches exactly area of Adriatic Veneti and the other matches exactly the area of Celtic Veneti in Britanny...
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap

    we also have Scordisci as previous Celtic speaking inhabitants of Serbia... but there is close to 50% of haplogroup I (38.5 % of I2a2, 7.8% of I1, and 1.67% of I2b1) and almost no R1b (only 4.5%) in Serbia, and Scordisci do fit very well into pattern of haplogroup I tribal names (Swedes, Suebi, Serbs, Sarbans, Sardinians...) while the area was not depopulated (since it preserved 17.3% of E-V13), so it never was high in R1b and Celtic Scordisci were likely only marginally R1b

    also, 300 BC in Celtic or partially Celtic area of Iberia, next to Caladuni we find tribe Seurbi... from Caladuni come Scotish Caledonii as preserved in their legend of origin... btw. ending on -din, -dun, -tin is typical for Celts, it had meaning fortress.. and indeed while Seurbi are next to sea side, thus close to point of entering Iberia, Caladuni were deeper into mainland - they had a role of being fortress protecting other settlements...

    in Serbia exist somewhat bizarre saying "speak Serbian so that the whole world understands you" which may indicate that proto-IE was initially spread by I2a, which is idea that makes some sense as various I2a branches we find in different areas of Europe, while R1b and R1a are mostly constrained to west / east Europe respectively...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    No, but that makes sense...

    because when I look at family tree dna, there are only two samples of I2a* - one matches exactly area of Adriatic Veneti and the other matches exactly the area of Celtic Veneti in Britanny...

    we also have Scordisci as previous Celtic speaking inhabitants of Serbia... but there is close to 50% of haplogroup I (38.5 % of I2a2, 7.8% of I1, and 1.67% of I2b1) and almost no R1b (only 4.5%) in Serbia, and Scordisci do fit very well into pattern of haplogroup I tribal names (Swedes, Suebi, Serbs, Sarbans, Sardinians...) while the area was not depopulated (since it preserved 17.3% of E-V13), so it never was high in R1b and Celtic Scordisci were likely only marginally R1b

    also, 300 BC in Celtic or partially Celtic area of Iberia, next to Caladuni we find tribe Seurbi... from Caladuni come Scotish Caledonii as preserved in their legend of origin... btw. ending on -din, -dun, -tin is typical for Celts, it had meaning fortress.. and indeed while Seurbi are next to sea side, thus close to point of entering Iberia, Caladuni were deeper into mainland - they had a role of being fortress protecting other settlements...

    in Serbia exist somewhat bizarre saying "speak Serbian so that the whole world understands you" which may indicate that proto-IE was spread by I2a, which is idea that makes some sense as various I2a branches we find in different areas of Europe, while R1b and R1a are mostly constrained to west / east Europe respectively...
    I agree that there must be a connection here. That is re I2a2a-Dinaric, though 'Dinaric' seems to have made no impact on Britain in terms of being able to locate haplotypes.

    The German-founded, 'western' kind of I2a2- I2a2b-Isles was probably brought to Germany from eastern Europe via LBK bands. Then we have the birth of L161 SNP in Germany, and the 'Isles' I2a2 carried to Britain in various 'waves', including some pre-Celts [Cruthin], Celts and later Anglo-Saxons.

    Yes, you make a good point re I2a being found in different areas of Europe- south-east, east, north-west etc.

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    As a member of the Disles clade (McGuire) I am VERY interested in your views and explanations but I'm wondering if we are hoping too much? The Disles clade has, I think, only about 15-20 members - very small - so could it be likely that we are descended from one man who arrived quite late rather than an ancient group?

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    How Yes No,

    -A very interesting suggestion.

    Forgive me if someone else mentioned this part; About the Scythians in this case- Depending on the time period in question, one may need to be cautious in the use of the term "Scots" or "Scotland" when referring to the region or people we know today as Scotland or Scottish.

    Prior to the days of the Roman withdrawal from Britain, the term "Scots" applied to people who lived in Ireland and the term itself was an alternative to "Irish". Modern-day Scotland (Then Caledonia) was inhabited by Celts who spoke Brythonic Celtic and by the Picts, who as you wrote were probably a Celtized/mixed group at least partly descended from pre-Celtic people.

    At or after the period marking the end of Roman Britain, there were significant invasions/settling of Caledonia by these "Scots" or Irish. Their Gaelic eventually supplanted the Brythonic Celtic of the area and the ruling dynasties there became mixed in a number of cases. After this period, the term, "Scots" becomes applied exclusively to those who lived in modern-day Scotland and those in Ireland are only called Irish. (or Gaels)

    The name of Scythians and Scot is still intriguing to me, though. Perhaps the relationship is with a Proto IE root word from which the names themselves are derived. As you mentioned, the Scythians are R1a, but there is very little R1a in Ireland and what little there is there is believed to be from Viking, Anglo-Normans, and English settlers. I would like to see more on this.
    Last edited by Regulus; 01-02-11 at 19:08.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulus View Post
    How Yes No,

    -A very interesting suggestion.

    Forgive me if someone else mentioned this part; About the Scythians in this case- Depending on the time period in question, one may need to be cautious in the use of the term "Scots" or "Scotland" when referring to the region or people we know today as Scotland or Scottish.

    Prior to the days of the Roman withdrawal from Britain, the term "Scots" applied to people who lived in Ireland and the term itself was an alternative to "Irish". Modern-day Scotland (Then Caledonia) was inhabited by Celts who spoke Brythonic Celtic and by the Picts, who as you wrote were probably a Celtized/mixed group at least partly descended from pre-Celtic people.

    At or after the period marking the end of Roman Britain, there were significant invasions/settling of Caledonia by these "Scots" or Irish. Their Gaelic eventually supplanted the Brythonic Celtic of the area and the ruling dynasties there became mixed in a number of cases. After this period, the term, "Scots" becomes applied exclusively to those who lived in modern-day Scotland and those in Ireland are only called Irish. (or Gaels)

    The name of Scythians and Scot is still intriguing to me, though. Perhaps the relationship is with a Proto IE root word from which the names themselves are derived. As you mentioned, the Scythians are R1a, but there is very little R1a in Ireland and what little there is there is believed to be from Viking, Anglo-Normans, and English settlers. I would like to see more on this.
    We can regard R1a1 as effectively absent in Ireland. It is not usually encountered in the dna of the Anglo-Norman families, or in Ulster Protestants. Neither is it usually encountered in areas of known Norse Viking settlement like Limerick and Dublin. Shame really...

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