Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

rove said:
I'm J2b2-L283. I have no idea how it could end up in Denmark.
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Hvad så, sker der gamleee

These are the main possibilities as to why you have this haplogroup:

1. You got it from the Bronze age migrants who brought Indo-European languages to Europe. (altså Yamnaya, dem fra dokumentaren "Historien om Danmark" - afsnittet om Bronzealderen)

2. A balkan soldier(most likely Illyrian, but could also be from any other Indo-European populations of that time really) who was stationed near the Rhine as part of the Roman army. Later leaps/migrations would bring it to Denmark. A good guess as to which migration could have brought it up to Denmark from the Rhineland area would be the influx of German aristocracy into Denmark which has taken place for hundreds of years, and only stopped relatively recently.

So in other words, either your line arrived pretty late from Germany as an aristocratic German. Or it arrived pretty early from the east, and were among the first to speak the language in bronze age scandinavia which would later diverge into Danish, Swedish and Norwegian.

Of course there are lots of possibilities, but these two are the most likely in my opinion.

Do you know which specific subclade you belong to? (If you know something more specific than Z631)

Anyways you should ask Trojet when he is online, he knows much more about J2b2a-L283 than any of us. If you have tested deep enough, he can probably tell if your line is closer to the Albanian/Illyrian subclades or if it already branched off in the Bronze age. That way we can find out which of the two abovementioned possibilities are most likely in your case.
 
Guys sorry if i am becoming silly but, when are the medieval samples going to be ready? Thx.
 
My DNA results Albanian gheg from kosovo

I'm albanian gheg from kosovo, my results it's i'm 100% european.
Greek 91.8% (Albanian)
Irish, Scottish, and Welsh 4.2%(Celt)
Balkan 2.7%(Albanian)
Ashkenazi Jewish 1.3%(i don't know)
What you think?
 
ihype02 said:
In the early 1360s, Epirus indeed was divided between Albanian clans: the clan of Peter Iiosha held Arta, the clan of Muriki Boua Spata" held Etoloacarnania, with Angelokastron as capital, and their leaders held the Byzantine titles of Despots from Symeon". Only the city of Ioannina WAS still governed by Greeks". In the north and west of this city, the clans of the Malakasaioi and of the Mazarakaioi held a territory which cannot be precisely defined''. Then, the clan of the Zenebisaioi held the north-west of Ioannina, including Dryinopolis, Bela and Vagenctia".

Source:
http://www.cliohworld.net/onlread/5/44.pdf
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Well, the section on the Albanians and their late medieval migrations to Epirus, and further south, from the source you linked seems pretty uncontroversial to me and also seems to agree with what I wrote above. But, per LABERIA's question above, it's clear that there are disagreements from others on the issue in this case.
 
DuPidh said:
J2B2 is all over Europe, why Denmark would be an exception?
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While that is true, it's at low percentage numbers, especially in northern europe and scandinavia according to the maps i get from this site.
 
Ernekar said:
Hvad så, sker der gamleee

These are the main possibilities as to why you have this haplogroup:

1. You got it from the Bronze age migrants who brought Indo-European languages to Europe. (altså Yamnaya, dem fra dokumentaren "Historien om Danmark" - afsnittet om Bronzealderen)

2. A balkan soldier(most likely Illyrian, but could also be from any other Indo-European populations of that time really) who was stationed near the Rhine as part of the Roman army. Later leaps/migrations would bring it to Denmark. A good guess as to which migration could have brought it up to Denmark from the Rhineland area would be the influx of German aristocracy into Denmark which has taken place for hundreds of years, and only stopped relatively recently.

So in other words, either your line arrived pretty late from Germany as an aristocratic German. Or it arrived pretty early from the east, and were among the first to speak the language in bronze age scandinavia which would later diverge into Danish, Swedish and Norwegian.

Of course there are lots of possibilities, but these two are the most likely in my opinion.

Do you know which specific subclade you belong to? (If you know something more specific than Z631)

Anyways you should ask Trojet when he is online, he knows much more about J2b2a-L283 than any of us. If you have tested deep enough, he can probably tell if your line is closer to the Albanian/Illyrian subclades or if it already branched off in the Bronze age. That way we can find out which of the two abovementioned possibilities are most likely in your case.
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Jeg er nu ikke så gammel.

Thanks for your input. I find those two possibilities reasonable. Very interesting.

I only tested with 23andme and LivingDNA. Doesn't go further than z631.

Curious, with livingdna i have another test awaiting but i didn't order it (Estimated completion in August). How could that be?
 
LATGAL said:
Well, the section on the Albanians and their late medieval migrations to Epirus, and further south, from the source you linked seems pretty uncontroversial to me and also seems to agree with what I wrote above. But, per LABERIA's question above, it's clear that there are disagreements from others on the issue in this case.
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Epirus_zpscdvupaa1.png
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rove said:
Jeg er nu ikke så gammel.

Thanks for your input. I find those two possibilities reasonable. Very interesting.

I only tested with 23andme and LivingDNA. Doesn't go further than z631.

Curious, with livingdna i have another test awaiting but i didn't order it (Estimated completion in August). How could that be?
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No problem.
The geneticists from copenhagen and from other places have said that now that we have so much ancient DNA from central asia, they will turn their attention towards the mediterranean. Surely some more J2b2a are going to show up there on the northern coasts of the med. That could open up for even more possibilities regarding the migrations of J2b2a people. Because right now we only have a small handful of J2b2a in the ancient dna record.

Its not unseen though to see some J2b2a in the nordic countries. Ive seen some from norway and sweden too. I think they were z631 too.


Sounds weird with that livingDNA test though. Don't know why you would get double results.


Btw. Do you get any albanian, greek or italian DNA relatives? Cause if not, it could be an indication that at least your paternal ancestors didn't come from down there in the course of the last couple of generations.
 
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LATGAL said:
Some of Matzinger's articles are available in Albanian online too:
http://www.academia.edu/6702154/Shqiptaret_iliret
I reread the paper you posted, with some translation help and some interpretation and I wasn't far off in what I remembered of Matzinger's general positions. Some general points he makes, some in addition to what you wrote:
- Strong Latin influence in the lexicon, weak Greek
- Based on the toponyms he thinks are directly inherited in Albanian versus adopted from an intermediate language, the proto-Albanian urheimat is roughly the area of the Diocese of Dacia minus Praevalitana
- A connection with Illyrian proper and what we know of Thracian seems to be rejected (so the theory connecting Albanians to "Bessians" from the Eastern Balkans) with some other related language of the inner Balkans being put forth as a likely possibility. A very exact location within the previous area might be hard to pinpoint considering their apparent pastoralist mobility when they emerge historically
- The Albanian migration into their current general territory, before their late medieval migrations, proceeds from north to south probably in AD times (~ 3rd to 9th century)
- He makes reference to the interesting ancient Albanoi situated in north Albania but he thinks the ethnonym might have just been adopted by newcomers, not unlike the German Prussians taking over a Baltic ethnonym
- His view is that the variety of the Balkan languages we don't have too much data on is likely understated (he also makes reference to Katicic's attempt to find separate Illyrian dialects based on onomastics etc.) and that Albanian might belong to a common Balkan group of IE alongside Greek, Armenian, Phrygian, Thracian, Illyrian
and so on.
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the Latin would be due to Romans taking coastal Albania which was under the macedonians some time after the 196BC wars ( 1st macedonian war ) ....this war came about due to Macedonian supporting Hannibal in money, goods and men ...............after the 3rd Macedonian war ...when Macedonian empire did not exist anymore we have ....the building , maintaining and constant patrolling of this road from Durres to Constantinople
A Brief History of the Via Egnatia
The Egnatian Way was built by the Macedonian proconsul Cn. Egnatius sometime between 146 and 120 BC as a military road to “allow the Romans to readily dispatch their army against any future [Macedonian] revolt, and to protect the Macedonian borders against barbarian threats” (Lolos 2007: 274–275; brackets added by author). A more precise date cannot be given because the proconsulship of Egnatius is not known. Perhaps someday an inscription will be excavated with a more precise date. Thus, the dating of the road will be secured.
Cicero, writing in the first century BC, called the Via Egnatia “our great military road (Latin via militaris) through Macedonia” (De Provinciis Consularibus 2.4; LCL 13: 543). Indeed it was.
For the next half century the Romans used Macedonia as a base of operation against the tribes, not all Thracian, to the north and north-east of Macedonia (Walbank 1985: 193–197).
Any latin picked up by Albanians in their vocabulary most likely came in this period.
 
Dibran said:
I think(given what data we have right now) that Bastarnae could be the source of that cluster in Greeks. Unless a large swathe of South Slavs show up in it anytime soon, I don't think it moved with the migration event like the rest. I also have a rare cluster. A Albanian founder effect within L1029 under M458. Only me and an Albanian belong to it. My closest TMRCA with everyone else L1029 is 2000-2300ypb. My cluster seems most common in Germany and Poland and Belarus on the South-West end. It could have been a Germanized Proto-Slav that arrived with Goths, considering I am negative for all downstream branches common in the Balkans. In fact, L1029-B-Western only makes up 20 percent of Bulgarian M458, most of which is M458-B-Eastern(YP417 and its downstream clades). As far as the Balkans it is common in Bulgaria, Romania, Macedonia, and Greece. My Albanian founder effect happened anywhere between 400-800AD(currently testing novels). There is alot of pseudo science in this field so it requires quite a bit of sifting lol.
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I see that there's an Albanian L1029 under R1a-M458, in a YFull tree.

I searched for I2a-CTS10228 (Dinaric) subbranch results for Albanians but couldn't find any. If anyone has such a result, can he please post it? Thanks.

There is an interesting development with I2a-A2512. A Greek tested Y18331+ and A2512-, so it looks like A2512 branched off from Y18331, which was previously considered equivalent to A2512. I have yet to see an MRCA estimate of when A2152 split off from Y18331, but it should come eventually or soon.

http://i2aproject.blogspot.com/2018/06/a-second-i-s20602-sample-and-greek.html

So it looks like there are two basal clades involving Y18331 in the southern Balkans, namely Greece: Y18331 itself and A2512 Y32624- and A10959-. That is interesting, and I look forward to seeing more results, and to see if these clades are eventually found in any other Balkanites.
 
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When they get samples for test do they get it from people of darker complexions or general population? since the important factor is to know the non-european admixture in europe so they must have taken samples more from the minorities and people with darker complexions and this in turn must have given large percentages(29%) for hg E in this region.
 
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Ralphie Boy said:
I see that there's an Albanian L1029 under R1a-M458, in a YFull tree.

I searched for I2a-CTS10228 (Dinaric) subbranch results for Albanians but couldn't find any. If anyone has such a result, can he please post it? Thanks.

There is an interesting development with I2a-A2512. A Greek tested Y18331+ and A2512-, so it looks like A2512 branched off from Y18331, which was previously considered equivalent to A2512. I have yet to see an MRCA estimate of when A2152 split off from Y18331, but it should come eventually or soon.

http://i2aproject.blogspot.com/2018/06/a-second-i-s20602-sample-and-greek.html

So it looks like there are two basal clades involving Y18331 in the southern Balkans, namely Greece: Y18331 itself and A2512 Y32624- and A10959-. That is interesting, and I look forward to seeing more results, and to see if these clades are eventually found in any other Balkanites.
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Yes, the L1029 Albanian on yfull is myself lolol. I also have a new L1029 match. Another Albanian!. Interestingly, despite 1000-1500TMRCA between us, they all originate from the same area as me(Dibra, Albania). It appears Yfull updated the age estimate of L1029 to 2100ypb. So now our founder clade has 3 Albanians(myself included). The terminal clade is yer to be defined as one of my matches is having my novels tested. Hopefully that will change in the coming months when results come in.

Wow thats really cool, now you have a basal branch of your clade only found in Greeks? thats a pretty interesting development. Adds more strength to a Bastarnae connection I think. So far most Albanian I2a1b is part of Slavic branches like PH908. None that I know of so far are part of this Greek cluster. Albanians are also very under tested so it could change.
 
Guys, one thing i have to notice you, i am seeing, mostly in another thread of this forum that more L23 sample are popping up in central europe with really old roots in the regions (tested), the sample are one guy from slovakia and one from hungary, they were both ht-35 positive.
Could this mean anything for our results or just confirm the theory of illyrians coming from central europe?
I know it is utopistic but it would be beautiful to go to hungary and start random excavations for illiryan tombs in some place choosen with no criteria at all XD.
 
And what about anatolia? There's a quite high concentration of L23 there, probably of hittite origin i would say, now, could we albanians have any connectio even with them??😱😱😱😱
Just assuming and trying to move a little bit the discussion.

P.s. back in the days hittites were quite badass warriors and warlike, quite similar to us, i don't know, as always just provoking your criticism.
 
Gannicus said:
Guys, one thing i have to notice you, i am seeing, mostly in another thread of this forum that more L23 sample are popping up in central europe with really old roots in the regions (tested), the sample are one guy from slovakia and one from hungary, they were both ht-35 positive.
Could this mean anything for our results or just confirm the theory of illyrians coming from central europe?
I know it is utopistic but it would be beautiful to go to hungary and start random excavations for illiryan tombs in some place choosen with no criteria at all XD.
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What sort of samples are you talking about? Be more specific, and point us to them.
 
Parafarne said:
When they get samples for test do they get it from people of darker complexions or general population? since the important factor is to know the non-european admixture in europe so they must have taken samples more from the minorities and people with darker complexions and this in turn must have given large percentages(29%) for hg E in this region.
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You fuking idiot! Haplogroups have nothing to do with phenotype.
 
Leka said:
What sort of samples are you talking about? Be more specific, and point us to them.
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Exactly. They bring 0 sources to the discussion... It's like coming back from the market with no bread.
 
Gheg Albanians are almost literally 100% Illyrian by yDNA.

R1b-L23, J2b2-L283, E1b-EV13 that makes up 95% of Gheg yDNA = Those 3 main haplogroups are 100% Illyrian yDNA.

Rest is I1 from Normans and Goths.
 
Fatherland said:
Gheg Albanians are almost literally 100% Illyrian by yDNA.

R1b-L23, J2b2-L283, E1b-EV13 that makes up 95% of Gheg yDNA = Those 3 main haplogroups are 100% Illyrian yDNA.

Rest is I1 from Normans and Goths.
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i1 and g2 are pre illyrian stock. i thought you get the DNA right?!
 
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