Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

[Gannicus]

Leka about the sample you are in that thread too, i posted there after your last post, it was the thread of R1b-L23.

 

[Gannicus]

R1b-L23 it is thaught to have had origin in anatolia but is it 100% sure? I am just asking

 

[Gannicus]

Then one thing about linguistics that came me in mind, one thing that I read while seeing the works made by some schoolars of the albanian orogin was that they said: it can't be thracian because thracians had placenames made by the connection between 2 names like: bessapara, where para means fort/stronghold and that albaniam doesn't allow this because it would be: para e/i beses, that would be right for "albanian" but for the modern one, looking at illyrians they had a name that makes sense in albanian: bardhyllis, that we could translate into: yll i bardh (white star) look how it changes from illyrian to albanian the article, this could be due to latinization, so in both cases, rather that albanians were illyrians, or rather then albanians were thracians, at least linguistically, any major discrepances could be explained by a heavy influx of latin into the vocabulary but even in the grammar, so, linguistically, thracian could still be a proper candidate but thracians are thaught to be R1a people and that their J was not J2b, as in albanians, but still we don't have that many ancient samples of thracians, and those that were founded resulted into albanians and greeks sharing the most with them, i don't remember tho where read the paper about it.

 

[Fatherland]

i1 and g2 are pre illyrian stock. i thought you get the DNA right?!

You're wrong on all points. All of the I1 in Europe is thanks to a founder from 1 man that sought refugee in Scandinavia 3000 years ago, therefore it is easy to trace to Goths, Bastarnae, Normans, etc.

G2 is from Farmers, mostly killed off by Indo-Europeans and their followers, it barely exists in the Balkans anymore.

 

[Fatherland]

R1b-L23 it is thaught to have had origin in anatolia but is it 100% sure? I am just asking

No. R1b-L23 is from Europe, spread later further west and east.

 

[Fatherland]

Then one thing about linguistics that came me in mind, one thing that I read while seeing the works made by some schoolars of the albanian orogin was that they said: it can't be thracian because thracians had placenames made by the connection between 2 names like: bessapara, where para means fort/stronghold and that albaniam doesn't allow this because it would be: para e/i beses, that would be right for "albanian" but for the modern one, looking at illyrians they had a name that makes sense in albanian: bardhyllis, that we could translate into: yll i bardh (white star) look how it changes from illyrian to albanian the article, this could be due to latinization, so in both cases, rather that albanians were illyrians, or rather then albanians were thracians, at least linguistically, any major discrepances could be explained by a heavy influx of latin into the vocabulary but even in the grammar, so, linguistically, thracian could still be a proper candidate but thracians are thaught to be R1a people and that their J was not J2b, as in albanians, but still we don't have that many ancient samples of thracians, and those that were founded resulted into albanians and greeks sharing the most with them, i don't remember tho where read the paper about it.

R1a in the Balkans is both from Slavs, Goths(and other Germanic groups). Scythians were of the Z93 clade, that is another clade than what is common in the East Balkans today.

 

[Gannicus]

R1a in the Balkans is both from Slavs, Goths(and other Germanic groups). Scythians were of the Z93 clade, that is another clade than what is common in the East Balkans today.

Ok thank you really much for replying but what R did the tracians belong to? Could they be R1b-L23? Because it is quite common in the balkans, then where did it come from, could it come from central europe (hungary/czech republic)?.
Thank you.

 

[Gannicus]

When i meant quite common, about L23, i wanted to mean the most widespread R1b subclade of the balkans.

 

[Gannicus]

One thing about the 3 major albanian haplogroup subclades:R1b-L23, J2b2 and E-V13 it is thaught that because they all together have specific subclades among albanian they have gave origin to the subclades found among albanians all together in the same period, in my opinion it is not true that they have specific subclades among albanians because of the living together, but because of the isolation gotten by the dinaric alps in 3 different epocs, paleolithic, mesolithic and neplithic, practical example:
E haplogroup comes into the dinaric alps, settles, because of the isolation gives birth to V13 subclade, Then thousands of thousands of years later comes J who gives birth to J2b subclade of albanians, the comes R1b-L23 (ht-35) that because of the isolation in the dinaric alps in albanians has its own subclade.
So what i mean is that if they have their specific subclades is because of the isolation in the territory that they found, not because of the fact that they came together and so living together developed their subclades, then after this why they came together to give birth to albanian people, because were pushed down by slavs or assimilated, those who survived took part into the albanian nationality.

 

[Fatherland]

One thing about the 3 major albanian haplogroup subclades:R1b-L23, J2b2 and E-V13 it is thaught that because they all together have specific subclades among albanian they have gave origin to the subclades found among albanians all together in the same period, in my opinion it is not true that they have specific subclades among albanians because of the living together, but because of the isolation gotten by the dinaric alps in 3 different epocs, paleolithic, mesolithic and neplithic, practical example:
E haplogroup comes into the dinaric alps, settles, because of the isolation gives birth to V13 subclade, Then thousands of thousands of years later comes J who gives birth to J2b subclade of albanians, the comes R1b-L23 (ht-35) that because of the isolation in the dinaric alps in albanians has its own subclade.
So what i mean is that if they have their specific subclades is because of the isolation in the territory that they found, not because of the fact that they came together and so living together developed their subclades, then after this why they came together to give birth to albanian people, because were pushed down by slavs or assimilated, those who survived took part into the albanian nationality.

That's not how it works. Read up on subclades, I don't have time to explain it.

 

[Dibran]

i1 and g2 are pre illyrian stock. i thought you get the DNA right?!

I1 has no position in the Balkans prior to germanic tribes late iron and middle age. G2 may be pre illyrian but it was mostly depleted in the Balkans with the arrival of later lines and so has minimal representation throughout the Balkans. Some G2 is Indo-Iranian and Slavic and Celtic though. Learn a little more before speaking.

 

[Aspurg]

nga foleja

Ky person ose nuk kupton filogjeni, ose thjeshtë rren kur thotë që shqiptarët përbëjnë vetëm një linjë/branch nën Y33200. Linja e Zlatkov/Mihajlovic definuar nga Y37280, poashtu rrjedh nga Y33200 dhe është vetëm një linjë. Gjithashtu, secili shembull që është nën Y33200* formon linjë indipendente dhe paralele nga të tjerët si dhe nga linja Y37280.

Dmth, për momentin ka 6 linja paralele apo vëllazërore nën Y33200 në YFull. Tre prej tyre janë shqiptare (YF09268 është me origjinë nga Shqipëria veriore), një bullgare, një rumune, dhe një bullgaro/serbe definuar nga mutacioni Y37280. Pra, aktualisht ky është fakti!

I understand your point Trojet, and you are quite correct that there are 6 clades under Y33200* who have separated 1300 years ago.

My point was that currently there are a Serb and Bulgarian Y37280+, and no Albanians as of yet. Well that might indicate that Y37280 ancestor was located 1300 years ago in Shop region, doesn't it?

Obviously the Albanian Y33200 had a significant expansion in Early Medieval period.

I understand you have your first Z2705* (most likely Y33200-), dys393=12, dys392=11. As I was analyzing all of haplotypes from study "Paternal and maternal lineages in the Balkans show a homogeneous landscape over linguistic barriers, except for the isolated Aromuns"
I noticed this interesting haplotype

231	12	24	14	11	11-11	12	12	13	11	29	15	11	12	12	11	11	11	11	6
232	12	24	14	11	11-11	12	12	13	11	29	15	12	12	12	11	11	11	11	1

So of only 19 tested Aromanians from Andon Poci, 7 had this haplotype! Even though these are Aromanians from Albania, if these were just Albanians assimilated into Aromanians why don't Aromanians there have any of the classic Albanian Y33200?

I said earlier that Albanians and Aromanians are genetically quite different, and when I said that "they might not a share an SNP in 2000 years" I meant this haplotype as the closest. There are few Albanians from studies with this haplotype, but obviously they are greatly outnumbered by Y33200.
Also there are few Greeks, here's one Greek from Macedonia

181

12

24

14

11

11,11

12

13

11

29

15

15

19

12

15

12

23

I understand there is a new Z2705* on Yfull, you said he might be Greek, so perhaps he has this haplotype.

I noticed this haplotype in studies, then some months ago one Serb dys392=11 appeared, I suggested him an SNP test and he went with it and as you probably know he came up positive for BY611 and Z2705, he did not test Y33200, but I think it is extremely unlikely he is Y33200+ because there is a Portuguese Y33200- who has dys393=13 and dys392=13.

All of these dys392=11 show similar values BUT as you might know there are actually Romanian and Bulgarian dys392=11, and with them the story is different.

Razgrad - Bulgaria 12 24 14 11 (11-11) 12 13 11 29 15 14 19 10 15 12 23
Montana - Bulgaria 12 25 14 11 (11-11) 12 13 11 29 16 15 ?? 11 15 12 23
Burgas - Bulgaria 12 24 14 10 (11-11) 12 13 11 29 15 15 19 11 15 12 23
Dolj- Romania (2) 12 24 14 12 11-11 12 13 11 29 15 15 19 12 16 12 23 (Basarab study, later confirmed in Roma study dys385=11-11).

Bulgarians are from 808 haplotypes study of Bulgaria where only 247 are available. There was a problem in this study with dys385, all repeated values are missing. So there are probably more of these. Currently on Bulgarian ftdna project there are no dys392=11, but it's only a matter of time before they appear..

Pay attention to some of their STR values such as dys437=14, dys391=12, dys390=25, GATAH4=10-12 ... They seem more diverse, Bulgarian from Montana and Romanians from Dolj are nearby across Danube but between themselves they show most differences.

So I agree that we need more samples, but this haplotype does show stronger affinity with Eastern Balkans.

Among Serbs obviously there are many who might push for Thracian origin of some clades, as to appear that Slavs were in modern-day Albania before Albanians (who would be Bessi of Gottfried Schramm). This is typical "autochtonism" that doesn't bother me, never has and never will. What interests me is which hg's/clades can be connected to Illyrians, Thracians, Greeks, etc..
Already it is obvious that a significant percentage of Albanians do have something to do with Koman culture (having various Illyrian elements), so even if Schramm was right still more Albanians surely descend from the first group.

Hg's among Albanians that show likely Thracian/Daco-Moesian connections are primarily Y33200 and FGC11450, I remember one of your FGC11450 clusters had close STR matches with a Bulgarian and a Romanian.

There is diversity of FGC11450 in Bulgaria already (plus one BY4914 FGC11450-). I had no troubles in calling several Greek FGC11450's to be of Arvanite origin because they had close matches with Albanians.. There are some Serb FGC11450's and I also said they show close matches with Albanians (those with 37 STR's and others with 23 show a similar tendency) and are likely some Gheg's or Tosks assimilated into Vlachs.. Which is not something a Serb would want to hear, today at least. 500/600 years it would have been no problem for a Serb or Albanian to have Serb/Albanian origins.

Also there is one interesting Bosnian FGC11450>CTS11286 , he has a relative in Switzerland, and in anonymous studies FGC11450 looking haplotypes similar to his (dys391=9) were found in the same area of Argau. In this area activities of Roman auxilia recruited from Bessi tribe were attested around 2000 years ago. An accident? Likely not. So I actually hypothesized Bosniak might be of Germanic origin and that he ended up there in Great migration period or later.

So regarding, BY611 it's still relatively early days, because this dys392=11 haplotype has just recently been found in commercially tested people. There are indeed some older clades around Mediterranean, but also note that distant relatives of BY611, Y5587 and BY250 have already been found in Bulgaria. Especially Y5587 has already a strong foothold there. So this entire CTS9219/CTS1450 spectrum might easily IMO turn out to be ultimately proto-Thracian/Daco-Moesian.

Only one BY250 was found in Bulgaria thus far, but in studies bunch of Bulgarian/Aromanian L23's look like BY250's. And a few of them can actually be predicted as such.

Also perhaps some of Albanian "thracian-derived" groups are Dardanian (Thraco-Illyrian) or something similar, that is also another option.

 

[Sile]

nga foleja


I understand your point Trojet, and you are quite correct that there are 6 clades under Y33200* who have separated 1300 years ago.

My point was that currently there are a Serb and Bulgarian Y37280+, and no Albanians as of yet. Well that might indicate that Y37280 ancestor was located 1300 years ago in Shop region, doesn't it?

Obviously the Albanian Y33200 had a significant expansion in Early Medieval period.

I understand you have your first Z2705* (most likely Y33200-), dys393=12, dys392=11. As I was analyzing all of haplotypes from study "[FONT=&]Paternal and maternal lineages in the Balkans show a homogeneous landscape over linguistic barriers, except for the isolated Aromuns[/FONT][FONT=&]"
[/FONT][FONT=&]I noticed this interesting haplotype
[/FONT]

231	12	24	14	11	11-11	12	12	13	11	29	15	11	12	12	11	11	11	11	6
232	12	24	14	11	11-11	12	12	13	11	29	15	12	12	12	11	11	11	11	1

So of only 19 tested Aromanians from Andon Poci, 7 had this haplotype! Even though these are Aromanians from Albania, if these were just Albanians assimilated into Aromanians why don't Aromanians there have any of the classic Albanian Y33200?

I said earlier that Albanians and Aromanians are genetically quite different, and when I said that "they might not a share an SNP in 2000 years" I meant this haplotype as the closest. There are few Albanians from studies with this haplotype, but obviously they are greatly outnumbered by Y33200.
Also there are few Greeks, here's one Greek from Macedonia

181

12

24

14

11

11,11

12

13

11

29

15

15

19

12

15

12

23

I understand there is a new Z2705* on Yfull, you said he might be Greek, so perhaps he has this haplotype.

I noticed this haplotype in studies, then some months ago one Serb dys392=11 appeared, I suggested him an SNP test and he went with it and as you probably know he came up positive for BY611 and Z2705, he did not test Y33200, but I think it is extremely unlikely he is Y33200+ because there is a Portuguese Y33200- who has dys393=13 and dys392=13.

All of these dys392=11 show similar values BUT as you might know there are actually Romanian and Bulgarian dys392=11, and with them the story is different.

Razgrad - Bulgaria 12 24 14 11 (11-11) 12 13 11 29 15 14 19 10 15 12 23
Montana - Bulgaria 12 25 14 11 (11-11) 12 13 11 29 16 15 ?? 11 15 12 23
Burgas - Bulgaria 12 24 14 10 (11-11) 12 13 11 29 15 15 19 11 15 12 23
Dolj- Romania (2) 12 24 14 12 11-11 12 13 11 29 15 15 19 12 16 12 23 (Basarab study, later confirmed in Roma study dys385=11-11).

Bulgarians are from 808 haplotypes study of Bulgaria where only 247 are available. There was a problem in this study with dys385, all repeated values are missing. So there are probably more of these. Currently on Bulgarian ftdna project there are no dys392=11, but it's only a matter of time before they appear..

Pay attention to some of their STR values such as dys437=14, dys391=12, dys390=25, GATAH4=10-12 ... They seem more diverse, Bulgarian from Montana and Romanians from Dolj are nearby across Danube but between themselves they show most differences.

So I agree that we need more samples, but this haplotype does show stronger affinity with Eastern Balkans.

Among Serbs obviously there are many who might push for Thracian origin of some clades, as to appear that Slavs were in modern-day Albania before Albanians (who would be Bessi of Gottfried Schramm). This is typical "autochtonism" that doesn't bother me, never has and never will. What interests me is which hg's/clades can be connected to Illyrians, Thracians, Greeks, etc..
Already it is obvious that a significant percentage of Albanians do have something to do with Koman culture (having various Illyrian elements), so even if Schramm was right still more Albanians surely descend from the first group.

Hg's among Albanians that show likely Thracian/Daco-Moesian connections are primarily Y33200 and FGC11450, I remember one of your FGC11450 clusters had close STR matches with a Bulgarian and a Romanian.

There is diversity of FGC11450 in Bulgaria already (plus one BY4914 FGC11450-). I had no troubles in calling several Greek FGC11450's to be of Arvanite origin because they had close matches with Albanians.. There are some Serb FGC11450's and I also said they show close matches with Albanians (those with 37 STR's and others with 23 show a similar tendency) and are likely some Gheg's or Tosks assimilated into Vlachs.. Which is not something a Serb would want to hear, today at least. 500/600 years it would have been no problem for a Serb or Albanian to have Serb/Albanian origins.

Also there is one interesting Bosnian FGC11450>CTS11286 , he has a relative in Switzerland, and in anonymous studies FGC11450 looking haplotypes similar to his (dys391=9) were found in the same area of Argau. In this area activities of Roman auxilia recruited from Bessi tribe were attested around 2000 years ago. An accident? Likely not. So I actually hypothesized Bosniak might be of Germanic origin and that he ended up there in Great migration period or later.

So regarding, BY611 it's still relatively early days, because this dys392=11 haplotype has just recently been found in commercially tested people. There are indeed some older clades around Mediterranean, but also note that distant relatives of BY611, Y5587 and BY250 have already been found in Bulgaria. Especially Y5587 has already a strong foothold there. So this entire CTS9219/CTS1450 spectrum might easily IMO turn out to be ultimately proto-Thracian/Daco-Moesian.

Only one BY250 was found in Bulgaria thus far, but in studies bunch of Bulgarian/Aromanian L23's look like BY250's. And a few of them can actually be predicted as such.

Also perhaps some of Albanian "thracian-derived" groups are Dardanian (Thraco-Illyrian) or something similar, that is also another option.

Razgrad for ancient area sits under Malak_Preslavets
https://www.academia.edu/2701415/Ma...ric_Studies_1_Budapest_L_Harmattan_2013_29-34
You might find some Ydna info here or other sites under Malak_Preslavets

 

[Aspurg]

Razgrad for ancient area sits under Malak_Preslavets
https://www.academia.edu/2701415/Ma...ric_Studies_1_Budapest_L_Harmattan_2013_29-34
You might find some Ydna info here or other sites under Malak_Preslavets

Interesting, though that paper deals with Neolithic times, I think we have some Neolithic samples from Bulgaria already.

About these Aromanians from Andon Poçi in southern Albania, they seem like a "weird" bunch genetically:
8 I2-Y3120 (likely PH908- looking at his few matches that have dys448)
7 R-Z2705 (dys392=11)
2 E-V13 Z16988 (Kelmend) or PH1246, hard to say dys385=17-18 draws him closer to Z16988, dys439=11 to PH1246
1 E-V13 Z19851 close to Bjelice cluster, weird is also that this haplotype seems absent in Albanians, present in Arberesh, other Vlachs and in Bulgaria.
1 J2-M205 a very weird haplotype very distant to Balkan cluster and other Balkan M205, the only relative he might have is in Greece

So Aromanians from Andon Poçi have 37 % of R1b-Z2705 dys392=11. That might be highest % of BY611 anywhere. Some have criticized the low sample there but even with only 19 people, they have several rare haplotypes.

I saw this video of their dialect which seems influenced by Albanian, which would be expected.

 

[Leka]

The BY611 among the Aromanians of Andon Poci is obviously a founder effect, and most probably such a line must be local influence (Albanian) - or they are in fact latinized locals, therefore of Illyrian ancestry (Dukasi, the other Aromanian village in the same study is showing similar influence, high percentage of J2b2-PH2967?). Neither would work for your eastern theory, however, so not sure why you even brought them up . Btw, same halpotype 392=11 was found among Ghegs in the same study, Bosch, and also in Ferri et al (x4) and Boattini et al (x2). We also have such a sample in our project now, a Tosk this time. So diversity in fact as far as Z2705 is concerned basing it on STRs alone peaks among us, and so does the frequency.

Two Romanians and few Bulgarians belonging to this group doesn't mean much. Large Albanian communities in both countries dating back to middle ages...

 

[Ownstyler]

Aspurg, just a couple of questions/concerns:

If you are dividing the Balkans into East and West why are you placing Aromanians from Albania in the East? The article even mentions that Aromanian groups in Albania were characterized by patrilocality (in the end of the section "Drift in the Aromuns").

Also, the frequency of the phenotype you are describing is repeatedly attributed to genetic drift. It's distinctiveness from most BY611 is still something to keep in mind, but the frequency, as Leka said is probably due to genetic drift.

 

[Leka]

Aspurg, just a couple of questions/concerns:

If you are dividing the Balkans into East and West why are you placing Aromanians from Albania in the East? The article even mentions that Aromanian groups in Albania were characterized by patrilocality (in the end of the section "Drift in the Aromuns").

Also, the frequency of the phenotype you are describing is repeatedly attributed to genetic drift. It's distinctiveness from most BY611 is still something to keep in mind, but the frequency, as Leka said is probably due to genetic drift.

For convenience?

Anyway, Andon Poci is a newer settlement. Settled by Aromanian speaking nomads from the surrounding area, initially from Mavrameli then later other related fis/families (through blood, marriages etc) joined them from other regions like Korça, Lushnja, Saranda etc. Obviously a local conglomerate sort of a settlement. Nothing to suggest they came from East or any other distant region. Unless of course he knows something we don’t..

 

[Aspurg]

The BY611 among the Aromanians of Andon Poci is obviously a founder effect, and most probably such a line must be local influence (Albanian) - or they are in fact latinized locals, therefore of Illyrian ancestry (Dukasi, the other Aromanian village in the same study is showing similar influence, high percentage of J2b2-PH2967?). Neither would work for your eastern theory, however, so not sure why you even brought them up .

About those J2b2's from Dukasi, obviously a significant founder effect there. Yes they are likely PH2967. They have some unique values like dys388=17, there is one American PH1601 (common in the East/Vlachs) with that value however he doesn't have their dys19=14 (typical for PH2967) and also he has dys456=12 (typical for some PH1601) while Dukasi Vlachs have 456=13 (not in this study but they have a certain Greek relative from another study with 456).


While they are PH2967, still they posses several unique values (388, 389, 439..) and actually they seem more distant to Albanian PH2967 than Albanian PH1751+ and PH1751- are to each other. So still this rare haplotype (outside of Aromanians) seems to be isolated. Their origin is very likely local (that is Illyrian).

But while there are local elements in Aromanians, there are clearly various other "Eastern connections".

Btw, same halpotype 392=11 was found among Ghegs in the same study, Bosch, and also in Ferri et al (x4) and Boattini et al (x2). We also have such a sample in our project now, a Tosk this time. So diversity in fact as far as Z2705 is concerned basing it on STRs along peaks among us, and so does the frequency.

If all of 808 Bulgarian haplotypes from this study were available we would have a far better insight into the spread of BY611's there than we have now. Even in Bulgarian project there are 700 people but only half are visible.
There is another weird "L23" haplotype in this study with missing dys385 but he is I2-M223, must be a mistake, his values are off for R1b.

Two Romanians and few Bulgarians belonging to this group doesn't mean much. Large Albanian communities in both countries dating back to middle ages...

Yes there were some communities there, but also pay attention that these Bulgarian and Romanian haplotypes show diversity between themselves. So this new Z2705* on Yfull is a Bulgarian? He might easily be one of their dys392=11.

Aspurg, just a couple of questions/concerns:


If you are dividing the Balkans into East and West why are you placing Aromanians from Albania in the East? The article even mentions that Aromanian groups in Albania were characterized by patrilocality (in the end of the section "Drift in the Aromuns").

Because they do have some connections with the East. First one is in the form of E-Z19851, which occurs in other Vlachs as well as in 4 Bulgarians (2 from ftdna, 2 from a study).


Second connection is through this particular BY611 haplotype, because it does occur in the East as well as in Albanians. Additionally there are 3 Greeks (1 from Athens, 1 from Macedonia, 1 unspecified) and also an Italian from Trapani in Sicily (YHRD).


Also I forgot there is a Romanian from Wallachia ( 'Population data for Y-chromosome haplotypes defined by 17 STRs in South-East Romania.' study). He can too be found on YHRD.





Yes as noted in the study mutliple haplotypes showed signs of a genetic drift. From today's perspective, one might look for their closest neighboring STR matches, which might have additional STR's and get an insight about clades they might posses. That wasn't really possible when this study was done.

Also, the frequency of the phenotype you are describing is repeatedly attributed to genetic drift. It's distinctiveness from most BY611 is still something to keep in mind, but the frequency, as Leka said is probably due to genetic drift.

Obviously it is a genetic drift. Regardless of that this haplotype became widespread there and for sure it is the highest percentage of BY611 dys392=11 haplotype anywhere.

For convenience?


Anyway, Andon Poci is a newer settlement. Settled by Aromanian speaking nomads from the surrounding area, initially from Mavrameli then later other related fis/families (through blood, marriages etc) joined them from other regions like Korça, Lushnja, Saranda etc. Obviously a local conglomerate sort of a settlement. Nothing to suggest they came from East or any other distant region. Unless of course he knows something we don’t..

When I talk about Eastern connection, I mean early, advanced Medieval times, not any recent migration. I don't know nearly as much about Andon Poci Aromanians as I do about some other Aromanian groups but perhaps their hg's could be attributed specifically to some of those areas.


There is a 5th Aromanian group in this study and those are Aromanians from Romania who are (being later settlers) obviously a mixture of other Aromanian groups.

 

[Leka]

About those J2b2's from Dukasi, obviously a significant founder effect there. Yes they are likely PH2967. They have some unique values like dys388=17, there is one American PH1601 (common in the East/Vlachs) with that value however he doesn't have their dys19=14 (typical for PH2967) and also he has dys456=12 (typical for some PH1601) while Dukasi Vlachs have 456=13 (not in this study but they have a certain Greek relative from another study with 456).

While they are PH2967, still they posses several unique values (388, 389, 439..) and actually they seem more distant to Albanian PH2967 than Albanian PH1751+ and PH1751- are to each other. So still this rare haplotype (outside of Aromanians) seems to be isolated. Their origin is very likely local (that is Illyrian).

But while there are local elements in Aromanians, there are clearly various other "Eastern connections".


If all of 808 Bulgarian haplotypes from this study were available we would have a far better insight into the spread of BY611's there than we have now. Even in Bulgarian project there are 700 people but only half are visible.
There is another weird "L23" haplotype in this study with missing dys385 but he is I2-M223, must be a mistake, his values are off for R1b.


Yes there were some communities there, but also pay attention that these Bulgarian and Romanian haplotypes show diversity between themselves. So this new Z2705* on Yfull is a Bulgarian? He might easily be one of their dys392=11.

When I talk about Eastern connection, I mean early, advanced Medieval times, not any recent migration. I don't know nearly as much about Andon Poci Aromanians as I do about some other Aromanian groups but perhaps their hg's could be attributed specifically to some of those areas.


There is a 5th Aromanian group in this study and those are Aromanians from Romania who are (being later settlers) obviously a mixture of other Aromanian groups.

Yes they do, and they seem distant. However, quite some diversity within PH2967 cluster among Albanians and we literally know very little about the J2b2 among Tosks, the Albanians who I suppose could have influenced them. We just recently got two samples from Mat who actually tested as Z1296+ Z1297- PH3120- PH1751-, who obviously represent an earlier split from the Mirdita samples (perhaps bronze age).

You shouldn't rely on few low res scientific study samples or base your hypothesis on them. We absolutely know nothing about them nor can we confirm that they are actually BY611 and not some sort of convergence. Fact remains Bulgarian project has over 800 testes and only about 6 or 7 of them are R1b-BY611 (3 or four of them from Macedonia) - and not even one with DYS392=11. No reason to cross borders and wander off when there is plenty of BY611 within Albania of their variety (393=12, 392=11). Also there no reason to believe that BY611 has an eastern connection, when all the Z2705 upstream branches representing the earlier splits come from Italy, Spain and then England. That's the other fact or sort of the elephant in the room that we can't push aside.

No, he is not. The new yfull sample is kit 301843 (393=13, 392=13) and he too shares the 1300ybp TMRCA with the rest of us.

 

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Interesting, though that paper deals with Neolithic times, I think we have some Neolithic samples from Bulgaria already.

About these Aromanians from Andon Poçi in southern Albania, they seem like a "weird" bunch genetically:
8 I2-Y3120 (likely PH908- looking at his few matches that have dys448)
7 R-Z2705 (dys392=11)
2 E-V13 Z16988 (Kelmend) or PH1246, hard to say dys385=17-18 draws him closer to Z16988, dys439=11 to PH1246
1 E-V13 Z19851 close to Bjelice cluster, weird is also that this haplotype seems absent in Albanians, present in Arberesh, other Vlachs and in Bulgaria.
1 J2-M205 a very weird haplotype very distant to Balkan cluster and other Balkan M205, the only relative he might have is in Greece

So Aromanians from Andon Poçi have 37 % of R1b-Z2705 dys392=11. That might be highest % of BY611 anywhere. Some have criticized the low sample there but even with only 19 people, they have several rare haplotypes.

I saw this video of their dialect which seems influenced by Albanian, which would be expected.

Do you have a source for the halpogroups of Vlachs I would like to see them. Not suspicious just curious.