Vlach haplogroups & deep ancestry?

Ygorcs said:
About Vlachs and their relationship to Romanans, has any extensive genetic study been made to try to give another clue, one from the point of view population genetics, and not just from of historical linguistics', about the still widely discusse issue of the territorial origin of Proto-Romanian speakers? I find the evidences pointing out to an origin in the Central Balkans, a bit west and south of present-day Romania, quite overwhelming, and of course the still extant Vlach, Arumanian-speaking population there, near the supposed homeland, could give us good indications of the real historic past of the Romanian people.
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Since Vlachs are Latin speaking people of different acnestries all over the Balkans, I really don't know how you can find a genetic relationship between them and anyone else, because they would not have a clearly recognizable genetic profile.
 
Ownstyler said:
Since Vlachs are Latin speaking people of different acnestries all over the Balkans, I really don't know how you can find a genetic relationship between them and anyone else, because they would not have a clearly recognizable genetic profile.
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Yeah, I was thinking it'd be a different task, indeed. Not only were the original Romanized Balkanic peoples that eventually became Romanians and Vlachs a very diverse number of tribes that were unified politically and culturally by Rome, but also since then they have been shaken back and forth and assimilated and got assimilated by others during and after so many invasions and migrations from the north and the east to the Balkans. Any significant genetic imprint of a definite "Proto-Romanian" population in the medieval Balkans must've been almost completely erased or leveled out through admixture with other peoples that were already more or less similar - and also similarly heterogeneous. I think this issue of Romanian's origins will have to be answered mostly through linguistics, indeed.
 
Calus leaps definitely sounds like Salli,it can be also connected to Thracian Cabeiri.

https://books.google.ro/books?id=DM...AEwEHoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=calus dance&f=false

https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&sour...WMAN6BAgFEAE&usg=AOvVaw2LtVxGShfzwASkA1sIOzDE

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salii

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabeiri
Western Wallachian version,no need to bother with slow motions here,because even these ones can be surprising:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VM7lTvNWH8o

Now you can clearly understand why I'm not a big fan of mumbling,the speech has to be naturally fluid, with no supplementary efforts,because communication remains the main factor of our society,that's why we have places like Surdul(the Deaf)or Mutu(self explanatory),if you can't meet the stardands,the irony inevitably comes,sometimes uninvited.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surdul


http://www.farsarotul.org/nl27_3.htm
 
Ygorcs said:
Yeah, I was thinking it'd be a different task, indeed. Not only were the original Romanized Balkanic peoples that eventually became Romanians and Vlachs a very diverse number of tribes that were unified politically and culturally by Rome, but also since then they have been shaken back and forth and assimilated and got assimilated by others during and after so many invasions and migrations from the north and the east to the Balkans. Any significant genetic imprint of a definite "Proto-Romanian" population in the medieval Balkans must've been almost completely erased or leveled out through admixture with other peoples that were already more or less similar - and also similarly heterogeneous. I think this issue of Romanian's origins will have to be answered mostly through linguistics, indeed.
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The issue is with people trying to define and label, actually... the Romanians (Vlachs) are just who they are: Inhabitants of a vast region around the Danube River... our customs agree... our genetics agree... :)
 
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The compact,larger,standard village called sat
comes from fossatus,fossatum and satum,with additional meanings that obviously imply agriculture, such as "a field,plain etc.",while the isolated catun is a group of houses,usually surrounded by the forests or mountains,the word also applies to clearings,thickets and small woods ,definitely related to cantone.


https://books.google.ro/books?id=EL...AgQAQ#v=onepage&q=fshat albanian term&f=false


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/satus



https://www.etymonline.com/word/canton
 
"In the fifth and sixth centuries,fossatum meant military camp..."


That's not the point,both Sacromontisi and
Fossatisii must involve geographical differentiation,otherwise the first term would have been useless, compared to the second one.Naturally, the vice-versa is also valid,so the word Fossatisii has to be connected with the senses of the above link.


https://books.google.ro/books?id=Cr...CAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=fossatisi jordanes&f=false


Ctrl+F:five days


https://erenow.com/ancient/the-fall...new-history-of-rome-and-the-barbarians/7.html
 
Litovoi said:
The Fossatisii were mainly lowlanders or lowland-based groups
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There are two words in Albanian for village, fshat and katund. Probably fshat is from fossatum.
 
Ownstyler said:
Since Vlachs are Latin speaking people of different acnestries all over the Balkans, I really don't know how you can find a genetic relationship between them and anyone else, because they would not have a clearly recognizable genetic profile.
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In Albania at least they live in a number of separate villages inhabited 100% by Vlahs. The intermarriages with local Albanians were non existing because of nationality and religion. So still in these pockets could be extracted genetic data. To my opinion they show higher Slavic resemblance than local population
 
"I believe that these peoples,Albanians and Romanians,had a common word,before dor and mall.My feeling is that,before the Latins ,a typical term had existed,who was replaced later,because semantically they are so close.
Analyzing the word,I find some senses that are not present in the Albanian literary language,but only in the Arbereshe dialect from Italy.
For example,we don't find there dashuri,that,in Albanian,means love,but mall.
Mall is love,very interesting,that is,dor,pain,bad."
(prof. Luan Topciu)
 
DuPidh said:
In Albania at least they live in a number of separate villages inhabited 100% by Vlahs. The intermarriages with local Albanians were non existing because of nationality and religion. So still in these pockets could be extracted genetic data. To my opinion they show higher Slavic resemblance than local population
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And even if they are distinct from the population around them, are they similar to Vlachs in Greece, Macedonia, Serbia, etc? That's why I was saying that you can't have them as just one group, but maybe as several.

The intermarriages are a different issue, and in any case until the Ottomans there weren't religious differences and nationalism only became relevant by the 18-19 centuries. Even in the last two centuries there have been "intermarriages", although rare. But, as I said, my point was not that Vlachs are mixed with different populations (although they most probably are), but that they ARE different populations. They are Latinized Illyrians, Thracians, Greeks, Dacians, etc. The Vlachs in Albania are probably genetically different from the ones in Romania. Those are different from the ones in Greece, and so on. So it doesn't make sense to put them in one group.
 
DuPidh said:
In Albania at least they live in a number of separate villages inhabited 100% by Vlahs. The intermarriages with local Albanians were non existing because of nationality and religion. So still in these pockets could be extracted genetic data. To my opinion they show higher Slavic resemblance than local population
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Not exactly. Many Vlachs live in the cities. All old Vlach families living in cities claim to have originated from Voskopoja. Sounds a little bit exaggerated to be honest. They despise a little those Vlachs who live in the villages. There are intermarriages with Albanians.
It`s hard to distinguish a Vlach from an Albanian. We can recognise some of them because usually Vlachs are more swarthy than Albanians. Also when they speak, some of them use this guttural consonant R. Also we can recognise some of them from their surnames.
And finally, it is not that there are so many Vlachs in Albania.
 
Litovoi said:
"I believe that these peoples,Albanians and Romanians,had a common word,before dor and mall.My feeling is that,before the Latins ,a typical term had existed,who was replaced later,because semantically they are so close.
Analyzing the word,I find some senses that are not present in the Albanian literary language,but only in the Arbereshe dialect from Italy.
For example,we don't find there dashuri,that,in Albanian,means love,but mall.
Mall is love,very interesting,that is,dor,pain,bad."
(prof. Luan Topciu)
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I don`t know if Albanians and Romanians,had a common word,before dor and mall.
The reason why the word dashuri=love it is not used by Arberesh is because the Arberesh dialect from one side have preserved some archaich forms but from the other side they have lost many words due to the preassure of the Italian language. Of course Albanian dialects spoken in Albania are more elaborate meanwhile the dialects spoken in diaspora, including Arbereshe dialects are more simplistic.
Also we use thew word mall. From the dictionary Albanian-Albanian:
MALL I m. :
Dhembje e thellë shpirtërore e trishtim që ndjejmë për dikë a për diçka që ndodhet larg nesh; dëshirë e fortë për t'u kthyer përsëri në një vend që s'e harrojmë kurrë, për të takuar një njeri të dashur që është larguar, për të rijetuar edhe një herë si dikur ose për t'u marrë përsëri me diçka që na ka pëlqyer shumë.
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Gg translator:
The deep spiritual sorrow and sadness we feel for someone or something that is far from us; strong desire to return to a place we will never forget to meet a loved one who has left, to go back to once again or to take back something that has very liked.
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It is a word that has many meanings and serves as a root for many other words. For example:
MALLËNGJIM m. sh.=movingly.
http://www.fjalorshqip.com/
 
Litovoi said:
"I believe that these peoples,Albanians and Romanians,had a common word,before dor and mall.My feeling is that,before the Latins ,a typical term had existed,who was replaced later,because semantically they are so close.
Analyzing the word,I find some senses that are not present in the Albanian literary language,but only in the Arbereshe dialect from Italy.
For example,we don't find there dashuri,that,in Albanian,means love,but mall.
Mall is love,very interesting,that is,dor,pain,bad."
(prof. Luan Topciu)
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Arbereshe do use the word dashuri. I'll find some songs and send them to you if you want.

As for the word "dor", seems like a typical transformation the Albanian language would do to the Latin word "dolor", Italian "dolore".
 
An Italian,walking through the Romanian provinces in the 16th c. ,observes the difference between the"sweet,fine" Moldavian speech and the endeavouring, guts, Western Wallachian one, described as "harsh sincerity".

After all,it is a matter of inherited mentality here,because we see the Wallachians creating,reviving, a state,called The Second Bulgarian Empire.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8BpE5PeyrFI
 
I have been searching for Wallachian influences in many parts of Serbia,Montenegro or Albania,but I got nothing,so far I have found only these two clips that worth mentioning.

The singer is called Rayna and cames from Sandanski,Pirin mountains,actually ,what has attracted my attention was the girl that performs the dance,because I recognize here some Wallachian patterns: a certain naturalness and even a bit of typical sensitivity in her behavior,plus the easiness and lightness of the movements.Wallachianization is also present in the form of a specific stance of "technical princess ",she also sends some clear,unsthealthy,Muntenian signals,by trampling a bit.However, the similarities stop here,not to mention that there are many differences.

Historical context:during the Second Bulgarian Empire,the rulers of the state have used Wallachian troops in many military activities,from guarding mountains and frontiers or battles,campaigns.
Although the remaining Wallachians would have been assimilated, some of the influences have been preserved,especially into the highlands.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_c0KvsVBvs8


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandanski


https://books.google.ro/books?id=S9...FegQIBBAB#v=onepage&q=vlachs bulgaria&f=false
 
Another interesting character from the same region,the football player Dimitar Berbatov,his name is Romanian,that is, Barbat,a man,from Latin barba.

Berbatov's name can be ultimately related to the Wallachian military nobility, since in the list of the earliest recorded rulers we do find Barbat,Litovoi's brother,helding the biggest domain that stretched on both sides of the Carpathians, with Hateg for sure included.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimitar_Berbatov

https://ro.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bărbat_(voievod)

Berbatov's father,Ivan(on the left side)


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/09/25/article-0-02CB550300000578-199_308x185.jpg
 
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