Racism in Europe.

[hope]

But on 9-11 Muslims took to the street praising Allah for the attacks on America

That I don`t condone at all L.D. Brousse. But is this sort of thing not the nasty actions of the few rather than the greater part?

 

[LeBrok]

Does that include you too?

What about the many millions of Latin American mestizos and mulattos?

Few Americans from Canada to Argentina can now claim pure Amerindian descent.

So many post on this and similar subjects and you don't know me.:shocked:
My sarcastic remark was directed at LD, to do what he preaches.

Let's reiterate my stand here. I prefer freedoms, right political and economic systems, having good people around to piece of land, traditional cultures or hereditary belonging to one group or place on earth.

 

[Amory Blaine]

I assure any Europeans that this man, L.D. Brousse is atypical in that most Americans (in the North anyhow) do not hold such blatantly racist sentiments. I know you guys aren't perfect, and we surely aren't either. My hope and expectation is that racism will disappear over the next century based on the rate it has been declining over the past half-century. Hopefully our more subtle economic racism will disappear along with the overt.

 

[LeBrok]

The land we call home was taken by force from the natives. It was a old European custom if you remember?

It wasn't only European custom, but the position of all militarily stronger peoples since done of human kind around the planet. I know that millions of Mexicans come to US and change the cultural and political status quo. Many do it illegally, but to be honest, they don't do it in much different way than millions Europeans did coming to America. Till pretty much 20th century they just arrived on boats and stayed. They didn't ask if they ware wanted, they just came and stayed. We know how much Anglicans or Protestants were pissed off at Catholics and Orthodox coming in numbers, not mentioning the Jews. Americans were really angry when poor Irish, Italians, Poles and Ukrainians came to take their jobs away.
So what has really changed? Perhaps you are only afraid of the change itself?

US is "paying" the price for being extraordinary successful country. Same in past happened to Roman Empire, France, Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Russia, GB and its successful colonies like Singapore, Hong Kong and Shanghai. Mind you that most of the US strength came from the immigrants, which generally speaking are the bravest, harder working and more entrepreneur than the population they came from. When you look through history of USA and see all the consequences, it was a positive gain for USA. There is no reason to conclude that this time the outcome will be different.

 

[L.D.Brousse]

I assure any Europeans that this man, L.D. Brousse is atypical in that most Americans (in the North anyhow) do not hold such blatantly racist sentiments. I know you guys aren't perfect, and we surely aren't either. My hope and expectation is that racism will disappear over the next century based on the rate it has been declining over the past half-century. Hopefully our more subtle economic racism will disappear along with the overt.

I don't think I'm Atypical at all I have no issue with legal immigation people who come to be Americans My Problem is with the ones that come here to push their agenda on us and our way of life. Maybe you think the 12 million illegal's that are here in the US are no burden at all ?. My family has been here since 1700 and fought in all wars we have had. I guess you don't think the people that carved this nation out have a voice at all? I have friends from many ethnic groups that are Great Americans I'm not a racist I fought in Iraq with many ethnic groups . I do not think it is wrong to preserve AMERICA, Or Europe do you? should there be no borders? This is my last post on the subject I can see people will see what they want in my post but never get what I'm saying .

Lets see 12 million Illegal's in America 20 million Legal Americans out of work Holy Crap Thank you Amory Blaine for telling me I'm a racist my atypical type hear it all the time from the left There are many more around the globe that feel the way I do and it's growing soon you will be the atypical. Look at America new laws are starting to pop up everywhere same in France and Germany people have had enough. Europe and America have in the past done some bad things and we have paid for our sins and still are. One nations can not allow a flood of immigration into a country with a unemployment rate of 8.1% and expect this to improve things. I value all Cultures around the globe as well as my own I don't want anyones to vanish. I do not believe in a one globe wide nation I believe in borders what is the old saying tall fences make good neighbors

 

[hope]

This is my last post on the subject I can see people will see what they want in my post but never get what I'm saying .

[/B]

On the contrary L.D.Brousse, I think the concern you express over illegal immigration is one that many of the E.U. member states themselves have. In fact some of the member states seem to be expressing concern over the Schengen Agreement in general, feeling it is "too open". Remember the hot-blooded debate earlier this year in Council with the Danish!
The problem is, how to deal with it in a positive way ?

 

[oriental]

"...on 9-11 Muslims took to the street praising Allah for the attacks on America..."

That is a complex issue. Even the 5 Israelis were dancing on the rooftop as they took pictures of the burning towers. If Bush hadn't screwed up in Iraq by firmly telling Saddam Hussein not to go to Kuwait this would not have happened. Instead Bush Sr. told him (paraphrase) that he didn't care what Arabs did to Arabs. So Saddam invaded Kuwait. A week later the Saudis were alarmed and paid Bush the hired gun to remove Saddam.

Saudi Arabia has been the source of Taliban as they financed the madrassas (religious schools) that poor Muslims send their children to as they cannot afford their children. Saudis are trying to spread Wahabism to the rest of the Muslim world. Wabahism is a radical conservative branch following a strict conduct. They want Sharia Law for Muslims. This is a deceptive move. Democracies should reject it. Sharia Law means Theocracy. The Sharia rule trumps all legislated laws. Muslims who came to western democracies want freedom. Sharia Law forces all Muslims to follow Sharia Law. There is no need for Sharia Law. If a Muslim wants to follow Sharia there is no restriction. By enforcing Sharia Law a freedom loving Muslim is restricted. Remember the Inquisition that is what Sharia Law is.

 

[Yetos]

Racism is few steps before war.

when Europeans meet American Indians, how they react?
how a black boy in africa reacts when see a white man?
how a European react when see a black man,?

But after few years started the war of cultures, persons pride, etc
THAT ALWAYS GAVE WARS!!! genocides etc

what I mean is that the one we say racism phenomena in Europe, is few steps before culture wars.

The colonial culture overpower local American culture and become rule,
Colonial also predate against Europe's culture by revolts,
that slowly created the american cultures ,

so when populations reach the limits of anexation, racism and war heppens so to defend the local culture or accept the newcomers.

Racist phenomena in Europe is the angel of European civil wars, or change of culture.

After 1949 colonisation of Euroep has started,
not so many generations need to change Europe we know,

 

[Kardu]

Any group (and it can be a group of individuals of different ethnic or racial background, of different gender, profession etc.) which doesn't promote and take care of its group interests is doomed to be defeated by other groups which do so.

It's a simple mechanism.

 

[hope]

Any group (and it can be a group of individuals of different ethnic or racial background, of different gender, profession etc.) which doesn't promote and take care of its group interests is doomed to be defeated by other groups which do so.

It's a simple mechanism.

Maybe..but it`s a pretty basic mode of survival is it not..and basic maths ( and history ) would say if the other group is larger there is a good chance you will be engulfed anyway. Therefore would our individual groups not have a better chance of surviving if we find a constructive way to co-exist?

 

[Kardu]

Maybe..but it`s a pretty basic mode of survival is it not..and basic maths ( and history ) would say if the other group is larger there is a good chance you will be engulfed anyway. Therefore would our individual groups not have a better chance of surviving if we find a constructive way to co-exist?

This basic survival model has worked for millennia and so far nobody has cancelled it
Coexisting models are mostly from utopian narrative. And the fact that your group is small and might lose does not mean you should give up and surrender. History does not favor losers.
The story of my people and country is a good example. We were always outnumbered by our hostile neighbours but we have never given up our struggle and fought against all odds, that's why we still keep our group identity, unique language and alphabet etc..

 

[hope]

This basic survival model has worked for millennia and so far nobody has cancelled it
Coexisting models are mostly from utopian narrative. And the fact that your group is small and might lose does not mean you should give up and surrender. History does not favor losers.
The story of my people and country is a good example. We were always outnumbered by our hostile neighbours but we have never given up our struggle and fought against all odds, that's why we still keep our group identity, unique language and alphabet etc..

Perhaps the idea of co-existence is a little utopian but I do not see how you equate co-existing to surrendering Kardu.
I have not said that maintaining ones language or culture is not important.
The thread here is racism in Europe and I`m sure you will agree there has been an increase of this against immigrant groups and a general feeling of resentment to-wards them in many countries. Surely there is a better way to deal with over immigration or illegal immigration other than this. It is up to our governments to seek better implementation of immigration policies as best they can and to reassure the citizens in the face of such unrest. Perhaps this is too utopian a hope also.

 

[Kardu]

It seems there is an alienation between European peoples and their governments. It seems the governments are following a certain agenda without really consulting the citizens.
Increase of resentment can be seen as a direct reaction of that.

The immigrant groups themselves don't help to improve the situation either. Most of them come from very different cultures than European and prefer to cling to their own instead of adapting. Then they discover that if somebody tells something about it they can scream 'racist!' and the opposition is shunned...

Actually nobody so far has given me a clear answer why Europe needs immigrants (aging and low birth rates don't count. If the governments wanted so they could promote natalism among their citizens)

 

[sparkey]

Any group (and it can be a group of individuals of different ethnic or racial background, of different gender, profession etc.) which doesn't promote and take care of its group interests is doomed to be defeated by other groups which do so.

It's a simple mechanism.

It seems like it ought to work that way, but I'm having trouble coming up with historical examples. Most examples of peoples whose ethnicity or racial background who were conquered or whose numbers dwindled were nonetheless interested in group preservation. Native Americans tribes have always wanted to preserve themselves, for example... it's just that competing mechanisms (imbalance of technology in favor of European settlers; tribal and ethnic tension between the Native populations; disease) doomed them.

Meanwhile, who has historically been a group who were disinterested in group preservation? I can't think of any groups that fit that exactly. Perhaps you could argue that the Rhode Island Baptists wanted a plural society, where they were one among many diverse religious sects. But nowadays Baptists are one of the most common religious denominations in the US! By being more accepting, more were willing to become like them.

 

[Kardu]

It seems like it ought to work that way, but I'm having trouble coming up with historical examples. Most examples of peoples whose ethnicity or racial background who were conquered or whose numbers dwindled were nonetheless interested in group preservation. Native Americans tribes have always wanted to preserve themselves, for example... it's just that competing mechanisms (imbalance of technology in favor of European settlers; tribal and ethnic tension between the Native populations; disease) doomed them.

Meanwhile, who has historically been a group who were disinterested in group preservation? I can't think of any groups that fit that exactly. Perhaps you could argue that the Rhode Island Baptists wanted a plural society, where they were one among many diverse religious sects. But nowadays Baptists are one of the most common religious denominations in the US! By being more accepting, more were willing to become like them.

That's why the current situation in Europe is kind of unnatural. While Amerindians didn't have means to keep their land and way of life, modern Europeans seem to be forbidden even to declare their group interests and identities. And who do so are labeled and smeared by Media...

 

[Amory Blaine]

Dearest L.D.Brousse, first of all, try as either of us might it is impossible to say accurately whether illegal immigrants are a burden or a boost to the United States economy. I have done the research and all it shows is that the biased side (liberal or conservative) skews the numbers in its favor, and ignores the other's points. Thus, statistics are useless and so we must take a more philosophical approach. Now, you do realize how hilarious it is for a conservative to argue in favor of immigration reform, don't you? I am not a particular proponent of capitalism, but as you must be, do you not understand that it is a basic tenet of the laissez-faire market that labor must be free to compete? Your opposition to the loosening of immigration restrictions simply highlights your ignorance of this quintessentially libertarian dogma. My use of the word "racism" is based in the following: As open borders are in the capitalist's best interest, he should argue for them. You do not. This implies some prior bias against open borders that is, quite commonly, racism. There are other options of course. You may be an obsequious man who seeks simply to follow the contemporary Republican platform, you may be ignorant of economics, or you might in fact be a liberal in disguise trying to lower labor supply and thus increase wages for American laborers. I hope it isn't more than one of the aforementioned. Anyhow, I hope you learned something, comrade.

 

[Yetos]

That is why Racism is expanding Europe,

Europeans want to think and express free, they want to speak and make humor with everythink, they learned in a free world at least for speaking expression,

the culture that Mulahs and Hodzas are pushing to Europe is tottaly foreign and non European,

I want to go out at cafe and speak free, WITH NO MULAH OR HODZA TELL ME WHAT TO SAY,
I WANT TO EXPRESS MY THOUGHTS WITH NO FEAR THAT A MUSLIM NAZI WILL LYNCH ME.

from that start the war of cultures, the racism which ends with war among cultures.

 

[Amory Blaine]

Yetos, as an American, I can tell you that the crimes of radical Islam against the West are far less than what we have done in Islamic countries. Though, even considering that, you can't define a people by the radicals. Also, I should mention that Muslim countries have notoriously low rates of crime. If anything, the Muslims are a peaceful people and to call them anything else is to be devoid of factual backing and to venture into the territory of plebeian racism.
Sources:
Apparently I can't post links so I'll try to spell them out. "Serajzadeh" by Seyed Hossein Serajzadeh and Wired's article stating that about 132,000 civilians died in Iraq and Afghanistan according to a Brown University study. Also, its a conservative estimate from a mid 2011 study, so the actual number is likely higher.

 

[Yetos]

Yetos, as an American, I can tell you that the crimes of radical Islam against the West are far less than what we have done in Islamic countries. Though, even considering that, you can't define a people by the radicals. Also, I should mention that Muslim countries have notoriously low rates of crime. If anything, the Muslims are a peaceful people and to call them anything else is to be devoid of factual backing and to venture into the territory of plebeian racism.
Sources:
Apparently I can't post links so I'll try to spell them out. "Serajzadeh" by Seyed Hossein Serajzadeh and Wired's article stating that about 132,000 civilians died in Iraq and Afghanistan according to a Brown University study. Also, its a conservative estimate from a mid 2011 study, so the actual number is likely higher.

I don't disagree, you are maybe right,
But I won't forget 3 things in my life,
1 was in Denmark, protesters gathered by Imams, inside Europe asking for worst than Medieval cencoring of speach against mohamet, an extreme way of Thinking, that shocked me indeed,

Second was in Afganistan were Taliban bomb monuments on rock aged millenium or older,

and 3rd was in my country when they gather at the ancient Zeus temple asking to make it a temen, a temple
and as polytheist that was the biggest insult I lived (wasn't born at what Christians did before 1700 years, )

but world was almost stabilized, in Europe even before WW2 we ahd stabilization of cultures, and in Usa after ML king show to stabilize,
we consider last the South Africa, the Berlin wall and the Cyprus occupation or split
but seems that stability of cultures will not keep long,

I supported Libya's riots against kantafi or kataif or daffy duck, but now I wonder if I was wrong,

IN Pakistan a girl with Down syndrom was saved by the hands of a dirty Imam who burned villages of Christians, He wanted to burn alive a girl with Down syndrom, so he put Qurans pages inside a small fire accusing the girl for Burning Quran

All I want to say, is that even after Wars, Revolts Racism is sneaking and crowling in our society, threatening our Liberties,
maybe I want to express free, maybe I want to burn Quran or ask critism to Mohamet, why I am in danger?
are we leaving Holy Inguisition again? this time by a foreigner?
that is creating Racism

 

[Kardu]

Yetos, as an American, I can tell you that the crimes of radical Islam against the West are far less than what we have done in Islamic countries. Though, even considering that, you can't define a people by the radicals. Also, I should mention that Muslim countries have notoriously low rates of crime. If anything, the Muslims are a peaceful people and to call them anything else is to be devoid of factual backing and to venture into the territory of plebeian racism.
Sources:
Apparently I can't post links so I'll try to spell them out. "Serajzadeh" by Seyed Hossein Serajzadeh and Wired's article stating that about 132,000 civilians died in Iraq and Afghanistan according to a Brown University study. Also, its a conservative estimate from a mid 2011 study, so the actual number is likely higher.

Interesting.... So centuries of Muslim invasions in Georgia starting in 654 ad, resulting in massacres of hundreds of thousands, rape, pillage, selling thousands as slaves apparently is a fruit of our imagination....