Racism in Europe.

[Yetos]

According to euro-islam.info Muslims are substantially underrepresented in state-controlled jobs. Also, most Greek Muslims live in one place -- Thrace where they simply support the socialist party. They aren't actively undermining the network of the country, just trying to get decent and fair economic opportunity in the midst of widespread racist sentiment. According to soros.org, "The needs and experiences of Muslims and non-Muslims are largely the same. Across all 11 [European, not Greek, but as your argument pertained to all Europe, so will mine] cities surveyed, daily concerns centre around the need for better quality of education, improved housing, cleaner streets, and tackling antisocial behaviour and crime."

Also, it seems like the government of Greece gets to make half the decisions regarding leaders in predominantly Muslim communities (though I'm not an expert on Greek affairs, so correct me if that is an overstatement). I don't think immigration is, can, or will change the culture, especially as the numbers you put up were rather false. I notice you never seem to provide a source... The current number of total immigrants is estimated 1-1.3 million people according to migrationinformation.org (though not all of these are even Muslim). But anyhow, I'm a bit tired of this debate. I don't think heterogeneous population makeup is a bad thing, and a wide labor market is beneficial in a capitalist style market and, of course, the Law of Diminishing Marginal Utility is present in the opportunity costs of such situations as these (immigrants have more to gain by coming to Europe than Europeans lose in them coming).

I was watching the news before,
from May 1rst
only 6500 arrested according FRONTEX in just 1 river pass Evrs river
estimetion that pass Evros > 30 000

the ones you call are people with pappers, what about if no pappers?
they drop them at sea when enter,
that makes more than 2 months to cross data with other country,

Thrace Muslims have their own schools, where Quran is teached in Arabic language
estimated about 100-120 000 people,

 

[Amory Blaine]

No, the one I cited actually was an estimate of all foreign born Greeks, illegal or not. If it were only legal the number would have been far more precise...

 

[oriental]

Generation	[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Years[/FONT]	Total Population	Males	Wives	Frustrated Males without wives
1	[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]0[/FONT]	5	1	4
2	[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]20[/FONT]	16	2	8	6
3	[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]40[/FONT]	32	4	16	12
4	[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]60[/FONT]	64	8	32	24
5	[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]80[/FONT]	128	16	64	48
6	[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]100[/FONT]	256	32	128	96
7	[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]120[/FONT]	512	64	256	128
8	[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]140[/FONT]	1024	128	512	256

The above figure is a simplified polygamous population growth where ideally all the females are mated and there is no immigration or emigration, deaths from diseases, child births or wars. The populations double with each generation. Look at the chart above.


If all the females are mated there will be males without mates and frustrated. If we assume a generation as 20 years then the 7^th generation and older will be the active members of the society. There are 128 20-year-old single males unable to get brides as they are too poor or less powerful as well as 96 40-year-old equally angry males. The 60-year-olds are too old to give a damn. So these 224 males are 2 ½ times greater in number than the satisfied males. They are the motivators of revolutions, wars and unrest.


Looking back at history at Islamic wars of expansion there were many soldiers killed so the victorious Muslims took the widows of dead soldiers from both sides as wives. The four-wives policies really worked. But this polygamy has that built-in factor for war as males without brides grow in numbers with each passing generation. Wars help alleviate this condition as there is loot and women available after a successful campaign. So one can see how polygamy helped Islam with the built-in sources of male frustration to spread around the world.


Only superior weapons kept Islam from spreading. Look at all the Islamic countries where they could not expand. The lands become deserts as the population explosion depleted the land. The goats eat up all the vegetation and create deserts. With over population disease become rampant as crowding increases. Disease is nature’s way of decreasing a population so that there is a balance.


Look at Egypt. In the 1970s the Egyptian population was roughly 40 million. Today 2012 it is roughly 96 million. In about 30 years it more than doubled in population. Roughly every twenty years it doubled. The ‘Arab spring’ is a result of polygamy.


The UN need to ban polygamy and democracies that allow Muslim immigration must reject Sharia Law as Sharia Law would bring in polygamy and doubling of Muslim population with each succeeding generation. Sharia Law would also bring in female genital mutilation and in some cases honour killing of females. Females would be becomes second class citizens as they would forbidden many activities and must cover themselves.


The steppe people also had a built-in male frustration as more women died in the harsh steppes from child births as the male-female ratio was skewed with the resultant excess of single males. Single young males are the source of many conflicts as they go raiding the neighbouring sedentary communities for women.

 

[how yes no 3]

I agree to all your notes,
But you have to agree with me,
Racism starts when a society or a culture even a class is in danger.
Racism starts when you accept the different, but the different does not accept you, and force you or ask you to be and live like it does.

good points...
maybe not well expressed though....
racism or any kind of fundamentalism (e.g. ideology or religion based) is about rigid group behavior characterized by complete lack of tolerance and compassion for non group members...

racism is based on low development of a human....
a person who seeks own worth in belonging to this or that group...

it is not so common in Europe, as Europe is much more individualistic than group society....
but even in Europe it can easily be triggered in underdeveloped people by feeling of being endangered spread by media or by some populist movement...

Most European countries would have to undergo much more drastic demographic shifts than Lebanon did to become Muslim majority. Over the 20th century, Lebanon went from ~54% Christian to ~36% Christian... an 18% change in the total population over 100 years. Compare: France is 7% Muslim, so it needs a 44% change... Germany is 4% Muslim, so it needs a 47% change... UK is 3% Muslim, so it needs a 48% change. So, if these countries change at the rate that Lebanon changed in the 20th century, they'll need 250 years to become Muslim majority. That's a lot of time for things to reverse, or for 5th, 6th, 7th, etc. generation Muslims to integrate.

you can't assume Lebanon change rate....

in Europe muslims typically have many children...
most non-muslim Europeans typically have one or two...
plus there is constant immigration from muslim countries to Europe...

being muslim is not a problem, most religions (including islam) do not preach bad things... islam is in essence very similar to Christianity...

problem is that underdeveloped individuals will make primitive belief system of any religion or thought system...
the way that underdeveloped individuals see the world is in black and white division of type "us and them"... there are no indivduals fellow humans for a person whose mind is poisoned with group idolatry....racist or fanatics of any kind do not see individual people, they only see group (race, ideology, nation, religion) members and non group members... group to which they belong and the anti-group made of all the others... that is the problem... they are not developed enough to have empathy for an individual out of their group...they are particularly cruel to outcasts from their group and to those who go against main line inside their group...

they are slaves of rigid belonging to a group because their worth feeling /their identity is not based on own understandings, experiences, beliefs or achievements, it is based on belonging to the group....


when on 9/11 you see celebration in muslim countries, it is for them not at all about innocent individuals who are killed, it is about anti-group (in this case USA) who messes up with their group (in this case islamic countries) being punched back in the nose....

 

[Kardu]

how yes no 3

As species we are group centered like our closest relatives from animal kingdom - chimpanzees. Nobody has yet cancelled laws of nature and evolution.

 

[how yes no 3]

how yes no 3

As species we are group centered like our closest relatives from animal kingdom - chimpanzees. Nobody has yet cancelled laws of nature and evolution.

not sure that i understand this remark correctly...

social groups are natural...
it is not that I am totally against existence of groups...
people have always survived by joining into groups...

problem is in rigid group behavior, when one has very narrowed view and does not see anything except black- white view of the world around him painted by group memeber/not group member division or good for group versus not good for group behavior...


i am sure that our existence on this planet has deeper meaning than supporting a group

 

[Kardu]

not sure that i understand this remark correctly...

social groups are natural...
it is not that I am totally against existence of groups...
people have always survived by joining into groups...

problem is in rigid group behavior, when one has very narrowed view and does not see anything except black- white view of the world around him painted by group memeber/not group member division or good for group versus not good for group behavior...


i am sure that our existence on this planet has deeper meaning than supporting a group

Your last remark borders mysticism. We are dealing with real world.

 

[how yes no 3]

Your last remark borders mysticism. We are dealing with real world.

hm, in real world (assuming we are able to know what real world is and what is a dream or illusion) you are born I guess as Georgian.... but in same real world you could have been born as Ossetian, or Abkhazian or Russian or Jew or black or muslim or.... and in case you were born in some other nation, than your viewpoint on some political and historical events would be completely different...

in real world individual is born into certain family and certain culture.... both family and culture have the long history through which its behavioral patterns were built... we are very much shaped by decisions made by our ancestors and influential people in our community.... unless we decide to turn off autopilot and think for ourselves...

 

[Kardu]

hm, in real world (assuming we are able to know what real world is and what is a dream or illusion) you are born I guess as Georgian.... but in same real world you could have been born as Ossetian, or Abkhazian or Russian or Jew or black or muslim or.... and in case you were born in some other nation, than your viewpoint on some political and historical events would be completely different...

in real world individual is born into certain family and certain culture.... both family and culture have the long history through which its behavioral patterns were built... we are very much shaped by decisions made by our ancestors and influential people in our community.... unless we decide to turn off autopilot and think for ourselves...

Certainly, but those are the game rules. If you start to ponder and waste your time with those metaphysical matters more pragmatic groups will eradicate you from the board.

 

[how yes no 3]

Certainly, but those are the game rules. If you start to ponder and waste your time with those metaphysical matters more pragmatic groups will eradicate you from the board.

that's true...
that might be even future scenario of radical islam expanding exponentially fast in west Europe in next decades/centuries...

point is one should never forget that he/she or someone he/she cares about could have been a member of opposite group....
and hence needs to make a difference between opposed group and individuals who were born into that group

this is key test of civilization level....
uncivilized individuals will see others only through group membership....
normal individuals will first be individual human beings and only than members of groups....

it is difference between nationalism and patriotism....
nationalism is all about rigid group behavior.... dominant emotion is hate for anti-group members and those group members who oppose mainstream of the group... conflicts between rigid groups end up in violence...

patriotism is about higher level group behavior.... dominant emotion is that there is in general more love for group members than for not members...because dominant emotion towards anti-group is not hate but reduced love, in any conflict there is an attempt to try to understand opposed side as well...conflicts between groups with higher level group behavior end up with making compromises in order to achieve win-win situation....

if nationalistic shaped ethnic group comes in conflict with patriotic shaped ethnic group, it is hard to achieve win-win compromise.....most likely outcome is that patriotic shaped ethnic group will also turn into nationalistic shaped ethnic group because it will feel endangered, and fear creates hate....

 

[Kardu]

On these points I fully agree

 

[Yetos]

I want to ask Questions to all of you,

Do you accept with an International Law that forbids speaking against any religion?

How do you feel if the USA Ambassador got Killed by a Muslim in an European country riots?

How do you feel that one day your daughter must wear dresses that she does not want to, cause of a religious law in the city,

How do you feel if you can be accused of insulting a religion in an Academic discuss inside a lecture in a University?

 

[how yes no 3]

I want to ask Questions to all of you,

Do you accept with an International Law that forbids speaking against any religion?

How do you feel if the USA Ambassador got Killed by a Muslim in an European country riots?

How do you feel that one day your daughter must wear dresses that she does not want to, cause of a religious law in the city,

How do you feel if you can be accused of insulting a religion in an Academic discuss inside a lecture in a University?

1. No, I am for freedom of speech
but I find extreme anti-religion speaking targeted agains some particular religion to be also rigid group behavior that can come to existence as a reaction on rigid group behavior of that religion... normal people will accept that there are other beliefs different than their own...

2. typical rigid group behavior... they lack understanding that an individual in USA making a movie has nothing to do with USA as a state and with other individuals in USA, same as the kind of people lack understanding that a foreign policy of a state (e.g. USA) has nothing to do with ordinary individuals living in that state (so they celebrate 9/11)

3. Everyone should believe in what he thinks is right,and dresses how he thinks is proper

4. Again, such accusation comes from rigid group behavior. In my opinion religions can only be properly understood if they are not used as dogmas, but as a material for thinking.. so critical standpoint towards a religion should not only be allowed, but also welcomed

 

[Amory Blaine]

First off, I like this Dutchman, he understands that racism is outdated in the developed, international community. As for the questionnaire:
1. Of course not.
2. Not happy about it. But I'm not like the perpetrators in that I don't mirror the view of those responsible by pressing grievances onto all other Muslims.
3. People should be allowed to dress as they will.
4. This is a very bizarre question. I don't really care if I'm accused of insulting something as long as I believe my words were appropriate with the information available to me at the time.

 

[Vallicanus]

First off, I like this Dutchman, he understands that racism is outdated in the developed, international community. As for the questionnaire:
1. Of course not.
2. Not happy about it. But I'm not like the perpetrators in that I don't mirror the view of those responsible by pressing grievances onto all other Muslims.
3. People should be allowed to dress as they will.
4. This is a very bizarre question. I don't really care if I'm accused of insulting something as long as I believe my words were appropriate with the information available to me at the time.

I'm sure the future Islamic Europe will be very tolerant of your breezy liberalism.

 

[Kardu]

I'm sure the future Islamic Europe will be very tolerant of your breezy liberalism.

Interestingly many liberal intellectuals were supporting Lenin before the Bolshevik Revolution (some even after) who in turn was lovingly calling them 'useful idiots'...

 

[Vallicanus]

Interestingly many liberal intellectuals were supporting Lenin before the Bolshevik Revolution (some even after) who in turn was lovingly calling them 'useful idiots'...

They were certainly idiots but they were useful in Lenin's plans.

 

[ElHorsto]

it is not so common in Europe, as Europe is much more individualistic than group society....

Probably that's why no racialist movement ever came from Europe. :useless:

 

[Kardu]

They were certainly idiots but they were useful in Lenin's plans.

Absolutely

 

[oriental]

Generation	[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Years[/FONT]	Total Population	Males	Wives	Frustrated Males without wives
1	[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]0[/FONT]	5	1	4
2	[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]20[/FONT]	16	2	8	6
3	[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]40[/FONT]	32	4	16	12
4	[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]60[/FONT]	64	8	32	24
5	[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]80[/FONT]	128	16	64	48
6	[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]100[/FONT]	256	32	128	96
7	[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]120[/FONT]	512	64	256	128
8	[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]140[/FONT]	1024	128	512	256

Looking at the demographics from polygamy as shown above there is a very high level of unmarried males on the street so women would be in danger of being kidnapped or raped so they have to keep themselves hidden or covered. I think this is the origin of the Hijabs and Burqas.