Melancon said:
Hm, maybe ... could it be possible that there were two Croats? Misattributed tribes with the same name etc.
Well - see my post above, I just posted information about Croat tribes (even two not just one) in Bohemia.
Charvati and Charvatci (see the map of Czech tribes I posted above).
Melancon said:
Or, the more likely theory: is it that Croats may have been Western Slavs like Czechs, Slovaks etc. but took a Southern Slavic dialect as they migrated South, and lost their West Slavic one?
Yes it seems so. Except that they did not "take" a Southern Slavic dialect. It evolved among them gradually.
You should know that Southern Slavic languages share many similarities with both Eastern and Western Slavic.
Slovene was even classified as "West Slavic" in the 19th century. Only later it was classified as South Slavic.
South-Eastern Slavic languages (Bulgarian & Macedonian) share more similarities with East Slavic.
But South-Western Slavic (Serbo-Croatian, Slovene, etc.) share more similarities with West Slavic.
Melancon said:
Also, I noticed ... it seems that Poles and Croats share the most alike Y-DNA R1a. Maybe this explains why Croats look more Polish or Russian than their neighbors lol. The Slovenians look very mixed...compare them to the Serbs or Macedonians, there is some similarity...but it seems quite small. About as similar in appearance as a French or German IMO.
Y-DNA has no correlation with appearance, which is determined by autosomal DNA.
There are R1b tribes in Sub-Saharan Africa but they don't look like R1b English people.
vandalorum said:
R1a are "unwanted" sons of R1b people.
R1a is not a downclade of R1b. They are both downclades of R1.
R1a is very old (it emerged about 21 - 25 thousand years ago, maybe even earlier) but it existed in a small number of individuals for most of that time (or experienced a population bottleneck at some point). It started a large-scale expansion very recently - 99 out of 100 of people with R1a who live today are descendants of one single common ancestor who lived between 4,800 and 6,800 years ago - average 5,800 years ago - so about 2,800 - 4,800 BC (average 3,800 BC). The beginning of that expansion can be dated to the Copper and Bronze Ages.
99% of modern R1a are downclades of R1a1a (M417) - a single male who lived 4,800 - 6,800 years ago.
Only 1% of modern R1a are descendants of other, older than M417, subclades of R1a.
vandalorum said:
This is highly speculative and doubtful.
Not a single sample of R1b dating to times before the Copper Age has been discovered in Europe so far.
vandalorum said:
and (I do not like this word) "aryan"
A much more likely candidate for Ancient Aryan haplogroup is R1a.
There is almost no R1b in the Middle East, India, etc. - places conquered by Ancient Aryans.
I am of course talking about real, historical Aryans, not about the ones invented by 19th century Germanic chauvinists. Aryans were originally Indo-European nomads from the Eurasian steppe. They established the Persian Empire and also conquered much of India.
The ruling dynasty of the Persian Empire considered themselves of Aryan descent:
http://www.livius.org/aa-ac/achaemenians/DSe.html
I am Darius, the great king, king of kings,
king of all kinds of peoples of all kinds of origins,
king of this earth far and wide, the son of Hystaspes,
the Achaemenid, Persian, son of a Persian,
an Aryan of Aryan descent.
By the grace of Ahuramazda, these are the nations that I subdued outside Persia.
I ruled them. They brought me tribute. What I ordered them, they did. They kept my law:
the Mede, the Elamite, the Parthian, the Arian, the Bactrian, the Sogdian, the Chorasmian,
the Drangian, the Arachosian, the Sattagydian, the Macian, the Gandaran, the Indian,
the Haoma-drinking Saca, the Saca with pointed caps, the Babylonian, the Syrian, the Arab,
the Egyptian, the Armenian, the Cappadocian, the Lydian, the Greeks near and across the sea,
the Thracian, the Libyan, the Kushite, the Carian.
vandalorum said:
german language grew up from proto-germanic language of I1 people....?
I1 people did not speak the Indo-European Proto-Germanic language, but a Pre-Germanic Non-Indo-European language, which perhaps took part in ethnogenesis of Germanic-speakers (it is probable that it also was absorbed by other, Non-Germanic branches of Indo-Europeans).
I1 people were Non-Indo-Europeans who were absorbed by Indo-European speakers. Of course Germanic languages - compared for example to Slavic or Iranic - have a lot of Non-Indo-European features, due to absorption of that large Non-Indo-European substrate.
vandalorum said:
Maybe I1 were first but mostly or only in Scandinavia.
You are not up-to-date with new discoveries.
I1 did not emerge in Scandinavia and is not "native" to Scandinavia.
Family Tree DNA said:
I1 is identified by at least 15 unique mutations, which indicates that this lineage has been isolated for a long period of time, or experienced a serious population bottleneck. Although the first mutation splitting I1 away from I2 may have arisen as long as 7,750 years ago, people belonging to this haplogroup all descend from a single man who lived less than 5,000 years ago. This corresponds to the arrival of the Indo-Europeans, suggesting that a high percentage of the indigenous I1 men could possibly have been killed by the new immigrants.
The oldest I1 found so far is from present-day western Hungary - it was discovered at Balatonszemes-Bagódomb archaeological site, belonging to LBKT (Linear Pottery in Transdanubia) culture, which started flourishing ca. 7,600 years ago (5,600 BC):
Below is a map showing this particular archaeological site:
http://s18.postimg.org/7qgyn3x6f/LBKT_I1.png
Eupedia said:
Five Mesolithic samples from Scandinavia dating from c. 6000 BCE were reported by Lazaridis et al. (2014), and yielded two I*, one I2*, one I2a1b, and one undetermined sample. Haplogroup I1 wasn't part of them. Likewise other samples from the same period from Luxembourg and northern Spain turned out to be I2a1b and C1a2. This data is consistent with a Neolithic dispersal of I1 from Hungary with the LBK culture and the subsequent Funnelbeaker culture (4000-2700 BCE) in northern Germany and southern Scandinavia. One Swedish sample from the late Mesolithic Pitted Ware culture (3200-2300 BCE) also turned out to belong to I2a1 and not I1.
The most likely hypothesis at present is that I1 and I2 lineages were dispersed around Europe during the Mesolithic, and that some branches prospered more than others thanks to an early adoption of agriculture upon contact with the Near Eastern farmers who were slowly making their way across the Balkans and the Mediterranean shores. The small group of farmers from the early LBK culture from Hungary might have formed a blend of I1 and G2a men. Yet distinct families would have spread in different directions and met varying successes in their expansion. It would appear that a founder effect in the northern LBK population led to a sudden explosion of I1 lineages, perhaps in part thanks to their better knowledge of the Central European terrain and fauna (since hunting was typically practised side by side to agriculture to complement the farmers' diet). I1 would later have spread to Scandinavia from northern Germany.
So how comes that modern Scandinavians belong essentially to three haplogroups (I1, R1a and R1b) that haven't been found in Mesolithic Scandinavian samples ? I1 would have been the first to penetrated into Scandinavia during the farming transition that lasted roughly from 4,200 to 2,300 BCE. The most likely explanation for the replacement of Mesolithic paternal lineages (I* and I2) by I1 throughout Nordic countries, including Lapland and Finland, is that the few farmers and stock breeders that did spread around Scandinavia were almost exclusively I1 men (through a founder effect).
In the vast majority of farming societies men are the ones who inherit the land and the livestock. As wild game became scarcier, especially during cold winters, farmers would have had a definite advantage for food and survival prospects. As surely happened in other parts of Europe, women from hunter-gathering families were married to wealthy farmers. After several millennia, with agricultural land and livestock always inherited by I1 lineages from father to son, I1 became the dominant lineage, even though their maternal lines had become hybridized over time. Nowadays, according to the autosomal admixture tested performed by Lazaridis et al. (2014), Scandinavians have only a few percents more Mesolithic than Neolithic admixture.
OK, so much (for now), when it comes to I1.
LeBrok said:
There are no historical sources claiming that there was even one tribe in Poland speaking Sarmatian language.
Well - actually Pliny the Elder mentioned some people called "Sarmati" living up to the River Vistula (Vistlam):
"Quidam haec habitari ad Vistlam usque fluvium a Sarmatis, Venedis, Sciris, Hirris."
arvistro said:
Balts were always there in the swamps and forests, on other hand our bros Slavs lived South of us all the time
By "always" you mean since the Bronze Age ???
Well, even this is highly doubtful. Especially there is no evidence that Indo-European ancestors of Lithuanians and Latvians lived at the Baltic Sea coast before the 5th - 6th centuries AD. It appears that Indo-European ancestors of East Balts (Lithuanians and Latvians) lived in areas located inland (not adjacent to the Baltic Sea), and more to the south-east, at that time.
Also, there is no proof that Slavs lived South of you "all the time". There is only proof that they lived next to you (but not necessarily South - it could be for example East of you as well) for some significant period of time. But no evidence for interrupted contact "all the time".
Melancon said:
It seems the Alans are the only modern living Scythian tribe.
Really? Where do these Alans live today?
When it comes to what you wrote about Hungarians:
I would be careful with drawing conclusions about ancient inhabitants of Hungary based on modern Hungarian DNA. There has been not so much of genetic continuity in Hungary over time. For example modern Hungarians have almost no haplogroup N, but recently N haplogroup has been found in Hungary at one of archaeological sites of Mezocsat Culture dating to 980 - 930 BC:
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141021/ncomms6257/full/ncomms6257.html
