Poland, more Germanic or Slavic?

Should the article about Poland be rewritten?

  • Yes

    Votes: 10 71.4%
  • No

    Votes: 4 28.6%

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And here is a map for this L51 downclade frequency:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27564-Where-did-R1b-L51-originate

attachment.php
The spot around Krakow is an interesting outlier. My grandpa was from Krakow. I have a good chance to be L51 then.
Interesting distribution of L51 in Europe anyway. What ancient ethnicity could be behind it? How old is L51?

Copernicus could be my cousin, how uplifting, lol.

Welcome back dude.
 
The spot around Krakow is an interesting outlier.

Kopernik's father lived in Cracow but he emigrated to Torun (Thorn).

It is also believed that his great-grandparents came to Cracow from village Koperniki in Upper Silesia.

Etymology of the surname is given from Slavic koprowina (copper) or koper (dill). Or from Dutch / Low German kopper (copper).

Both words for copper of course originate from Latin "cuprum".

It seems that the family could be either of Slavic or Flemish / Dutch (from the Netherlands) origin.

Flemish / Dutch origin would explain why they are Kopernik not Kupfernik (Kupfer is a word for copper in Standard German).

The surname can be also of Slavic origin, though (etymology can be derived from several Polish dialects or from Sorbian).

An important argument for Slavic etymology (over Dutch / Low German) is the suffix "-ik", which is distinctly Slavic.

================================================

Medieval and Early Modern people did not pay much attention to spelling and ortography:

"Surnames of inhabitants of the Lidzbark District (1500-1772)" - excerpt from pages 19 - 20:

http://www.uwm.edu.pl/human/duch/komornictwoang.pdf

Ermland.png


Latin was the main language of writing at that time (for example during the 16th century East Prussia's Königsberg's printing houses published 297 books in Latin, 183 in German, 104 in Polish, and several dozen in Lithuanian and Prussian).

Coming back to not paying attention to spelling (it also depends in what language one was writing):

Personal signatures of astronomer:

Nicolaus Copernicus (astronomer's personal signature from 1539)
Νικολευ Κόπερνικoυ (astronomer's personal signature in Greek)
Nicolaus Copernic (astronomer's personal signature at Padua)

Various spelling variants of astronomer's surname, as written by other persons of the 15th - 16th centuries:

Nicolaus Copernidus (spelling by J. Dantiscus)
Nicolaum Koperni (spelling by Bona Sforza)
Nicolaus Copernik
Nicolaus Coppernyck
Nicolaus Goppernic
Nicolaus Coopernick (in 1512)
Nicolaus Gopernick
Nicolaus Copernich
Nicolaus Coppernich
Nicolaus Coppernicus
Nicolao Copernico (spelling by G. J. Rheticus)
Nicolao Cupernico (another spelling by G. J. Rheticus - lol)
Nicolaus Coppernigk (in 1504)

And perhaps several more variants, that I've been unable to find.

Several examples of other Medieval people with this surname (or similar surnames) - original spelling from sources:

Stanislaus Kopernik (person from 1417)
Margritte Koppirnickynne (person from 1422; noted in the town book of Torun)
Petrus Koppernik (person from 1409)
Niczko Coppernik (person from 1375)
Joannes de Coppirnig (person from 1424)
Nicolaus Koppernik (person from 15th century)
Claus Kopernik (person from 1440)
Petir Koppirnicks (person from 1422; noted in the town book of Torun)
Niclas Koppernik von Crocaw (by some town chronicler from Gdansk)
Nicolaus Koppirnig (by some town chronicler from Gdansk)

Early recorded (in Latin) names of village Koperniki:

Coprnih (document from 1272)
Copirnik (document from 1284)
Copirnich (document from 1280s)
Copernik (document from 1291)

===========================================

Today the surname "Kopernik" seems to be most widespread in Poland:

Kopernik_descendants.png


But among Koperniks in Germany, the most common given name is Slavic "Lesław" (recent immigrants from Poland perhaps):

http://www.verwandt.de/karten/absolut/kopernik.html

Leslaw Kopernik kommt in Deutschland am häufigsten vor. (...)

Distribution of Kopernik surname today - highest concentration in Southern Poland (which is in agreement with the map of L51):

http://www.moikrewni.pl/mapa/kompletny/kopernik.html

Kopernik.png


Highest number is in county Rybnik (Upper Silesia), second highest in Gdansk.

Rybnik is close to Krakow. Krakow is also among the counties with people of this surname.
 
What ancient ethnicity could be behind it?

Well, the map looks like L51 originated in Southern France.

But, on ther other hand, modern frequency doesn't have to be the same as ancient frequency.

I don't know what age is it - wonder if it is from Roman times, older, or younger?
 
Sarmatian language wasn't just "Indo-Iranic"
it was "northeast"-Iranian

Sarmatian word Zirin=Gold
it is Iranic
Zærin=Gold is Ossetian
also compare Sarmatæ Sauromatæ Iazamatæ Iaxamatæ Saudaratæ(=Melanchlaeni) etc
to Ossetic ethnonims Irattæ Digoratæ Tualtæ Chsantæ Walagomtæ etc

tae endings are ancient greek language which means ( for example, sarmatae - sarmatian people PLUS all othe rminor tribes who are neighbours of sarmatians , but not necessary sarmatians )
 
Hm, what does math say?
1) first map says c.a. 40% of R1b = L23
2) eupedia says c.a. 12% of Polish y-dna = R1b
3) 40% * 12% ~ 5% of Polish y-dna = L23
4) other map says c.a. max 1% of Polish y-dna = L51 (downclade of L23)

So, point is we need L23 frequency map, if we want to guess based on modern frequencies. It looks like since brother clades L23(xL51) is 4% of Polish y-dna, it might have also branched off in/near Poland or in tribe that finally settled in/near Poland (that is if there is a map which says >90% of French L23 is L51).
 
So, point is we need L23 frequency map

L23 according to Eupedia:

Haplogroup-R1b-L23.gif


2) eupedia says c.a. 12% of Polish y-dna = R1b

Eupedia's 12% is rather minimum, perhaps the real amount is closer to 13% - 15% or more.
 
Ok, looks like it did not branch in Poland then. And probably came back from West to join the other L23 clades which radiated from East. But ok, that is just speculations of someone who knows nothing of R1B.
 
L23 according to Eupedia:

Haplogroup-R1b-L23.gif




Eupedia's 12% is rather minimum, perhaps the real amount is closer to 13% - 15% or more.

The distribution pattern seems to suggest that it spread from Anatolia, mainly by sea.
 
The distribution pattern seems to suggest that it spread from Anatolia, mainly by sea.

LOL

you do know the sea is the white colour!
 
Using this awesome tool (link below) I've found places where some of modern descendants of Andronovo Culture's R1a individuals from Keyser's 2009 study live:

I also used this database of ancient Y-DNA, to get their genetic profiles: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

Here are the Y-DNA profiles (Haplotype) of these particular two ancient individuals (Table 2):

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnastr.shtml

All I needed to do was to fill in the same Haplotype here (proper numbers in each field):

http://yhrd.org/search

The Results

Andronovo_1.png


However, the size of their database for each country is different.
 
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Those two Bronze Age individuals belonged to the Andronovo Culture (map below - red boundaries):

Andronovo_Culture.png


Facial reconstruction from a female skull discovered in one of kurgan burials belonging to this culture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture

Andronovo_Alekseyevka.jpg


Andronovo Culture's chariot and warriors:

sibir_49.jpg


andronovoculturewarrior%5B1%5D.preview.jpg
sibir_30.jpg
 
I have also found this data - frequencies of selected Y-DNA haplogroups in six regions of modern Belarus:
(Northern, Central, Western, Eastern and two southern regions - Western Polesye and Eastern Polesye)

Region I2a2 - % / R1a1 - %:

Central I2a2 - 16% / R1a1 - 52%
Eastern I2a2 - 14% / R1a1 - 57%
Western I2a2 - 3% / R1a1 - 57%
Northern I2a2 - 7% / R1a1 - 56%
E. Polesye I2a2 - 22,5% / R1a1 - 44%
W. Polesye I2a2 - 27,3% / R1a1 - 44%

HG - Eastern Polesye % / Western Polesye %

E - 2.0 / 1.7
G - 6.1 / 1.7
I1 - 4.1 / 7.4
I2a - 22.5 / 27.3
J - 6.1 / 3.3
N1c - 9.12 / 7.4
R1a - 43.9 / 43.8
R1b - 2.0 / 5.8
others - 4.1 / 1.7

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polesia
 
Using this awesome tool (link below) I've found places where some of modern descendants of Andronovo Culture's R1a individuals from Keyser's 2009 study live:

I also used this database of ancient Y-DNA, to get their genetic profiles: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

Here are the Y-DNA profiles (Haplotype) of these particular two ancient individuals (Table 2):

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnastr.shtml

All I needed to do was to fill in the same Haplotype here (proper numbers in each field):

http://yhrd.org/search

The Results

Andronovo_1.png


However, the size of their database for each country is different.

how many red are there? ...13

the blue ( +red ) is the ALL the tested examples that they ( YHRD) have accepted.

The acceptance of a sample is a difficult process .....5 seperate exams from same person and if any are faulty, none are accepted. And they will never reveal the person who the sample came from.


Do your numbers.
below where my similar ones with the middle test



there are no others on the whole world ................and I am not part of these examples
 
But now something EVEN better - modern matches with the Tagar Culture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagar_culture

The Tagar tribes are thought to have been Caucasoids of the Scythian circle.[1] They lived in timber dwellings heated by clay ovens and large hearths. Some settlements were surrounded by fortifications. They made a living by raising livestock, predominantly large horned livestock and horses, goats and sheep. Harvest was collected with bronze sickles and reaping knives.[2] Their artifacts were heavily influenced by Scythian art from Pazyryk. Perhaps the most striking feature of the culture are huge royal kurgans fenced by stone plaques, with four vertical stelae marking the corners. The Tagar culture is preceded by the Karasuk culture and succeeded by the Tashtyk culture.

(...)

Ancient DNA extracted from the remains of six males who dated back to the Tagar culture were determined to be of Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a. Extracted mtDNA from two female remains from this cultural horizon revealed they possessed the T3 and H lineages. The study determined that the majority of the individuals had light hair and blue or green eyes.[3]

The Results

Tagar_1.png


And another guy from Tagar Culture ("Rv" in table 2) - looks like his descendants went for example to Afghanistan:

Tagar_2.png
 
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Urnfield Culture:

Lichtenstein Cave - 2 males (M10 and M11) with R1a1 (the remaining 12 Y-DNAs from this cave are: 1 R1b and 11 I2a2b):

Urnfield_III.png
 
arvistro said:
2) eupedia says c.a. 12% of Polish y-dna = R1b

Eupedia's 12% is rather minimum, perhaps the real amount is closer to 13% - 15% or more.

12% is certainly too low. Why?

Because it is from a sample collected in cities inhabited mostly by Eastern Poles (Wroclaw, Szczecin, Gdansk, Suwałki, Lublin). Almost 44% of entire sample from this study was from these 5 cities, of which one is in North-Eastern Poland, one in Eastern Poland and three were largely repopulated after WW2 by Eastern and Central Poles. On the other and, no people from places like Greater Poland (including Poznan), Cuiavia, Upper Silesia, Lodz Voivodeship were included in this study. So Western and North-Western Poles were largely ommited.

Some other studies show much higher % of R1b in Poland, for example this one:

Natalie M. Myres in 2010 counted 18,35% R1b in Poland

R1b.png
 
And percent of R1b in several other countries according to the same study by Natalie M. Myres:

Czech Republic - sample size 87 - 21,6% R-M269:

image001z.png


Slovakia - sample size 276 - 16,2% R-M269:

image001p.png


Hungary - sample size 113 - 20,3% R-M269:

image001l.png


Romanians - sample size 330 - 12% R-M269:

image001c.png
 
There are large differences in percentages for each haplogroup between sources.

This is because samples are never as representative and large as they should be.

A minimal sample of ca. 5892 people from 220 cities would be good for Poland:

On avg. ca. 10 people from each city over 20,000 (= 1340 or 22,74%)
On avg. ca. 22 people from each city over 50,000 (= 1034 or 17,55%)
On avg. ca. 44 people from each city over 100,000 (= 968 or 16,43%)
On avg. ca. 150 people from each city over 200,000 (= 2550 or 43,28%)

This would quite accurately represent almost half of its population:

There were 220 cities >20,000 in Poland had almost half of its pop. (in 2008):

20,000-49,999 - 134 cities / with 11,0% of pop. (22,8% in this group)
50,000-99,999 - 47 cities / with 8,4% of pop. (17,4% in this group)
100,000-199,999 - 22 cities / with 8,0% of pop. (16,6% in this group)
over 200,000 - 17 cities / with 20,8% of pop. (43,2% in this group)

Total - 220 cities / with 48,2% of Polish pop. (100% in this group)

After that, a small "adjusting" sample can be collected from rural areas and towns under 19,999, to account for differences in urbanization between regions (if we collect samples only from cities and towns over 20,000 then few most urbanized regions will be overrepresented and few least urbanized ones underrepresented, compared to their respective shares in total population of the country). They can even take samples of random size from each city, but then adjust proportions of results according to each city's share in total pop.
 

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