LeBrok
Elite member
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- Location
- Calgary
- Ethnic group
- Citizen of the world
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R1b Z2109
- mtDNA haplogroup
- H1c
" CONCLUSION
Our phylogeographic data lead us to conclude that the initial episodes of R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey, and we estimate that diversification downstream of 417/Page7 occurred ~5800 years ago. This suggests the possibility [FONT=AdvMinionNormal_Rm][FONT=AdvMinionNormal_Rm] that R1a lineages accompanied demic expansions initiated during the Copper, Bronze, and Iron ages, partially replacing previous Y-chromosome strata, an interpretation consistent with albeit limited ancient DNA evidence. "
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/pdf/ejhg201450a.pdf
[/FONT][/FONT]So, the authors are saying that R1a arose in or near the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey? I apologize in advance if this is a stupid question, as I'm not an R1a expert, nor a yDNA expert in general. I also haven't combed through the data for myself yet, although I will. So, what date does the paper give for that initial diversification? If you disagree with it, why and what date would you propose? Do you disagree with the location they propose?
[FONT=AdvMinionNormal_Rm][FONT=AdvMinionNormal_Rm]Then, according to the paper, about 4,000 B.C. or B.C.E, i.e. Before the Common Era, or about 6,000 years ago, is the date for the diversification downstream of 417, and according to them, this suggests[/FONT][/FONT] that these R1a lineages below 417 accompanied the demic expansions that began in the Copper Age. That seems pretty reasonable to me from a first analysis. Do the authors propose that the 417 mutation coalesced in that same area? And spread from there? And that therefore these Copper Age expansions and the Indo-European languages with which many associate them also spread from there?
I think R1a (M420) is dated to around 25 thousand years, and M417 at around 15 ky, that's plenty of time to wander up and down Central Asia from North to South, related to climate and location of herds of game animals. In this case it is not surprising to see Iran area as most diverse region of ancient R1a types. However at the end of Ice Age these R1a H-G must have moved to Central and North Asia, otherwise we would have seen more successful R1a involved in Early European Farming.
I would claim that it is true for most but except L664, and here is why. There are clues suggesting that separation of subclade which ended up as L664 (the Western European) from M417 had to happen during hunter-gatherer stage from 15 to 6 kya, and not in farmare stage after 5 kya. The earliest L664 is found in Lichtenstein cave (dated at 3,000 BP) in group of I2a2 and one R1b individual. All lineages of Neolithic H-Gs I might add, and no EEF Y DNA. This is late bronze age already, but this group is somehow secluded (in forest?) still mostly hunting, with very very primitive farming if any or mostly herding. They were all very closely related, and still doing something in a cave? Anyway my point is that L664 comes from earlier subclades which had split earlier than S224 (IE?) from M417, therefore none IE.and we estimate that diversification downstream of 417/Page7 occurred ~5800 years ago.
By this estimate from the paper and by circumstantial evidence, in my mind, it fits beginning of farming and Indo-European culture of S228. I suspect farming could have been brought and taught by J2a people, the early farmers spreading north. Perhaps from successful Cucuteni and Varna cultures (successful farmers and copper and bronze smelting) close by on the Black Sea. I expect it might have been a very long process (2 ky?) of Cucuteni farmers "radiating" their technologies and farming way of life (and genes) to the north and east till it was fully embraced by S228 R1a tribes.occurred ~5800 years ago.
Only after this we see Corded Ware farmers Z282 expanding into Central/North forests of europe with their copper and bronze tools. Perhaps also with new variety of Northern wheat type like Rye?