Corded Ware / Iranic-Aryan split of IE?

[LeBrok]

Thanks to this paper:
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/full/ejhg201450a.html


and nice R1a maps:

Can we see Z282 as Corded Ware culture and Z93 as Indo-Iranian?

It could indicate Kazakhstan as Center of Iranic tribes before expansion to the South? South to Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India.

It is interesting how fairly unmixed Z282 and Z93 survived after the split for last 4,500 years or so. Even though we have many hunic/nomadic incursions into Europe through all this time. Unless Z93 belonged mostly to farmers not participating in nomadic/hunnic tribes of BC period migrations? Or perhaps maybe because Z282 was in farming populations, and Z93 was in nomadic?

What history says, were Iranic tribes nomads or farmers?

Here is my take on this:

In Paleolithic R1a had to be hunter-gatherers, perhaps of nomadic nature, because of climate and herds of hunting animals movements in the steppe and central Asia.
In neolithic, they took on farming from Near East Farmers. The S224 (the father clad of Z282 and Z93) got very successful and multiplied through the farming communities. They could have done that anywhere in Steppe from Ukraine through Kazakhstan, because during Holocene Optimum, 6-4 kyBP it was warmer and moister than today, and existence of cities and towns (4 k y old) and farming communities are attested in the Steppe.

After the split, S224 went into North-Central Europe as Corded Ware culture and developed Z282 subclade. They kept on farming till today, because Europe never dried up, unlike the Steppe.

Z93 most likely developed in Kazakhstan also in farming communities around 4,000BP. When steppes started to dry they shifted to herders-nomads, became very mobile, because of horses, and moved to South Asia, when pushed by cooling climate in the steppe.

Most likely development, spread and success of some subclades comes with major technological and historical events, making only certain subclades successful:
S224 Indo-Europeans - could have become successful when R1a switched to farming. Might indicate the R1a switch to farming. S224 as a farmer's subclade multiplied much faster than other R1a hunter-gatherer's clades.
Z93 Indo-Iranians - might indicate switch of R1a to herding. Could have been the subclade of first family who took on herding. When farming collapsed in the steppe many R1a farming subclades died out together with it. Only once who switched to herding or hybrid farming/herding survived.
Z282 Corded-Ware - IE farmers expanding to Central-North and East Europe during bronze age. Perhaps they have figured out the way how to farm in heavy forested area of Europe with bronze tools, or developed wheat variety growing better in this colder climate.

 

[Aberdeen]

Those maps look convincing. As for whether Iranian tribes were nomads or farmers, nomads are generally more likely to explode in an orgy of conquest and overrun other groups. But if the Iranians were probably nomads by the time they spread IE culture into Asia, that doesn't necessarily mean that their ancestors couldn't have been farmers who traded that lifestyle in for nomadic herding in response to climate change. I don't think the common concept that pastoralists must have learned animal husbandry from crop farmers is always true. I think the the Sami could have learned reindeer herding on their own, for example. But it does seem likely that in most cases pastoralists either were originally crop farmers or learned animal husbandry from crop farming neighbours. I think either explanation could be true for the Iranians prior to their expansion.

 

[LeBrok]

Those maps look convincing. As for whether Iranian tribes were nomads or farmers, nomads are generally more likely to explode in an orgy of conquest and overrun other groups. But if the Iranians were probably nomads by the time they spread IE culture into Asia, that doesn't necessarily mean that their ancestors couldn't have been farmers who traded that lifestyle in for nomadic herding in response to climate change. I don't think the common concept that pastoralists must have learned animal husbandry from crop farmers is always true. I think the the Sami could have learned reindeer herding on their own, for example. But it does seem likely that in most cases pastoralists either were originally crop farmers or learned animal husbandry from crop farming neighbours. I think either explanation could be true for the Iranians prior to their expansion.

I remember watching a program with Russian archaeologists explaining it same way. Before 2,000 BC it was pretty wet in steppes and Iranians were farming and building big cities. After 2,000 BC there was a cool and dry period. Cities were abandoned, locals became more pastoralists and most of them moved south.
I think Persians were famous with their swift and numerous cavalry. More typical for steppe nomads.

 

[Sile]

Thank to this paper:
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/ejhg201450ft.html


and nice R1a maps:

Can we see Z282 as Corded Ware culture and Z93 as Iranic-Aryan?

It could indicate Kazakhstan as Center of Iranic tribes before expansion to the South? South to Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India.

It is interesting how fairly unmixed Z282 and Z93 survived after the split for last 4,500 years or so. Even though we have many hunic/nomadic incursions into Europe through all this time. Unless Z93 belonged mostly to farmers not participating in nomadic/hunnic tribes of BC period migrations? Or perhaps maybe because Z282 was in farming populations, and Z93 was in nomadic?

What history says, were Iranic tribes nomads of farmers?

What are the contours on the maps for?
Clearly they are not to do with density of marker as Maciano haplogroup maps shows density without contours.
Are they like weather maps, the closer the contours , the more recent the migration?

 

[Goga]

To my understanding according to this paper the split of R1a occurred somewhere between Western parts of the Iranian Plateau and Northern Caucasus. So, the original R1a was from West Asia. One part of R1a migrated into the Eastern Europe, while other part migrated into the Central Asia. Maybe MAYKOP was also partly R1a?
I belong to a R1a clade which is neither Central Asian nor Eastern Europe. My haplogroup is ancestral to both groups. And my R1a is originally from Kurdistan Zagros Mountains.

So this scientific paper makes sense to me. Also, makes an end to all speculations by amateur hobbyists online with hidden agenda's where nationalism and racism are playing an important part of their motives.

Btw, 'Aryans' were SEMI-nomads.

 

[Goga]

There was also some back migration of R1a into the Iranian Plateau and Kurdistan. The back migration happened mostly with the Parthians and Central Asian Scythians.

True proto-Iranians were an admix between J2a and R1a.

 

[bicicleur 2]

According to the paper coalescence was 5800 y BP, that is before the steppe warriors, who orginated 3500 y BP with the Seima-Turbino phenomen, which is linked to N1c1.
If you look careful, you'll see none of the clades stayed on the steppe, except Z93* who stayed on the edge of the steppe near the Altaï Mts.
R1a were not steppe warriors, but cattle (horse) farmers. They had horses and bronze weapons though and it was fairly easy for them to conquer the southern civilizations when they had to leave the steppes.

 

[Engel]

Hey but the kurds nor iranians are Aryan by any stretch of imagination

 

[Goga]

According to the paper coalescence was 5800 y BP, that is before the steppe warriors, who orginated 3500 y BP with the Seima-Turbino phenomen, which is linked to N1c1.
If you look careful, you'll see none of the clades stayed on the steppe, except Z93* who stayed on the edge of the steppe near the Altaï Mts.
R1a were not steppe warriors, but cattle (horse) farmers. They had horses and bronze weapons though and it was fairly easy for them to conquer the southern civilizations when they had to leave the steppes.

No, not 5800BP, but for about 5800 years ago. Also, some 'southern civilizations' were much more advanced than Central Asian people at that time. R1a in Central Asia was 'bottle necked'.

" CONCLUSION
Our phylogeographic data lead us to conclude that the initial episodes of R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey, and we estimate that diversification downstream of 417/Page7 occurred ~5800 years ago. This suggests the possibility [FONT=AdvMinionNormal_Rm][FONT=AdvMinionNormal_Rm] that R1a lineages accompanied demic expansions initiated during the Copper, Bronze, and Iron ages, partially replacing previous Y-chromosome strata, an interpretation consistent with albeit limited ancient DNA evidence. "


http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/pdf/ejhg201450a.pdf[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Taranis]

To my understanding according to this paper the split of R1a occurred somewhere between Western parts of the Iranian Plateau and Northern Caucasus. So, the original R1a was from West Asia. One part of R1a migrated into the Eastern Europe, while other part migrated into the Central Asia. Maybe MAYKOP was also partly R1a?
I belong to a R1a clade which is neither Central Asian nor Eastern Europe. My haplogroup is ancestral to both groups. And my R1a is originally from Kurdistan Zagros Mountains.

So this scientific paper makes sense to me. Also, makes an end to all speculations by amateur hobbyists online with hidden agenda's where nationalism and racism are playing an important part of their motives.

Btw, 'Aryans' were SEMI-nomads.

The problem with your idea for an Iranian plateau origin is that it does not add up with the "tree" of R1a:

One of the oldest branches of R1a to splinter off is L664, which is found in northwestern Europe. In my opinion, its more plausible that R1a was located in the North European plain, and spread westward from there, and the expansion into Central and South Asia happened only with the Indo-European expansion. As LeBrok noted, Z93 definitely seems to match up very well with the Indo-Iranic branch of Indo-European.

Hey but the kurds nor iranians are Aryan by any stretch of imagination

Kurdish is an Indo-European language, part of the Indo-Iranic languages, part of the Iranic languages. The reason I personally think that the term "Aryan" is awful because depending on the context (and also the time the literature is written) it can variably mean "Indo-European" (esp. late 19th century literature, this is also where the Nazis stole their usage of the word, even though in German language literature the term "Indogermanisch" - 'Indo-Germanic' was overwhelmingly used stead), "Indo-Iranic", "Iranic" or "Indic". With regard for the Kurdish language, every one of these definitions except the last one (Indic) applies to it.

 

[Aberdeen]

No, not 5800BP, but for about 5800 years ago. Also, some 'southern civilizations' were much more advanced than Central Asian people at that time. R1a in Central Asia was 'bottle necked'.

[FONT=AdvMinionNormal_Rm][FONT=AdvMinionNormal_Rm]...............

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/pdf/ejhg201450a.pdf[/FONT][/FONT]

The letter BP, when used in that context, mean "before present". So 5800BP means 5800 years ago. I don't think that's a difficult concept.

 

[LeBrok]

According to the paper coalescence was 5800 y BP,

It is pretty good, it happened over a one thousand years before Corded-Iranic split of IE, and there was no additional coalescence since. In this case the S224 R1a1a1b was the original IE subclade.

that is before the steppe warriors, who orginated 3500 y BP

What do you mean by steppe warriors at 3500BP? There were no warriors in the steppe before this time? Or do you mean a specific type of warrior, the first warrior on a horse?

If you look careful, you'll see none of the clades stayed on the steppe, except Z93* who stayed on the edge of the steppe near the Altaï Mts.

The Corded-Iranic split of IE must have happened during S224 stage and before mutations into Z93 and Z282, some time after Corded went into Central/North Europe and Iranic moved East or stayed in same place if Kazakhstan was a home to S224.

R1a were not steppe warriors, but cattle (horse) farmers. They had horses and bronze weapons though and it was fairly easy for them to conquer the southern civilizations when they had to leave the steppes.

I believe you have an internal conflict about Indo-Iranic tribes.

In Paleolithic R1a had to be hunter-gatherers, perhaps of nomadic nature, because of climate and herds of hunting animals movements in the steppe and central Asia. In neolithic, they took on farming from Near East Farmers. The S224 got very successful and multiplied through the farming communities. They could have done that anywhere in Steppe from Ukraine through Kazakhstan, because during Holocene Optimum, 6-5 kyBP it was warmer and moister than today, and existence of cities and towns (4 k y old) and farming communities are attested in the Steppe.
After the split, S224 went into N-C Europe as Corded Ware culture and developed Z282 subclade. They kept on farming till today, because Europe never dried up, unlike the Steppe.
Z93 most likely developed in Kazakhstan also in farming communities around 4,000BP. When steppes started to dry they shifted to herders-nomads, became very mobile, because of horses, and moved to South Asia, when pushed by cooling climate in the steppe.

Most likely development, spread and success of some clades comes with major technological and historical events:
S224 - could have become successful when R1a switched to farming. Might indicate the R1a switch to farming. S224 as a farmer's subclade multiplied much faster than other R1a hunter-gatherer's clades.
Z93 - might indicate switch of R1a to herding. Could have been the subclade of first family who took on herding. When farming collapsed in the steppe many R1a farming subclades died out together with it. Only once who switched to herding or hybrid farming/herding survived.

 

[Goga]

The problem with your idea for an Iranian plateau origin is that it does not add up with the "tree" of R1a:

One of the oldest branches of R1a to splinter off is L664, which is found in northwestern Europe. In my opinion, its more plausible that R1a was located in the North European plain, and spread westward from there, and the expansion into Central and South Asia happened only with the Indo-European expansion. As LeBrok noted, Z93 definitely seems to match up very well with the Indo-Iranic branch of Indo-European.

This is not only my idea, but an idea of the true scientists that wrote this paper. By true scientist I do mean actually professionals who went to the university and get high education and training on this topic.
You’re talking about L664, but what about the oldest clades? This paper is about the ORIGIN of R1a. The R1a clade to which I do belong is SRY1532.2 NEGATIVE! It doesn't belong to any known subclades of R1a1. It's older than L664, so the OLDEST branches of earliest R1a you can find mostly in West Asia (Kurdistan Zagros Mountains).

http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2013/10/r1a-discovered-among-yezidi-kurd.html

 

[Goga]

Also, how do you think R1a ended up in Europe at the first place? Out of the blue? It came from the East and most likely from the same place where R1b was evolved. It's possible that there were 2 separate R1a waves from West Asian into Europe. First wave via the Balkans and second wave via Northern Caucasus or Central Asia. If you’re open minded in TRUE science and don’t stuck up in (and blinded by) wishful thinking there’re many explanations for this.

 

[Angela]

The problem with your idea for an Iranian plateau origin is that it does not add up with the "tree" of R1a:

One of the oldest branches of R1a to splinter off is L664, which is found in northwestern Europe. In my opinion, its more plausible that R1a was located in the North European plain, and spread westward from there, and the expansion into Central and South Asia happened only with the Indo-European expansion. As LeBrok noted, Z93 definitely seems to match up very well with the Indo-Iranic branch of Indo-European.



Kurdish is an Indo-European language, part of the Indo-Iranic languages, part of the Iranic languages. The reason I personally think that the term "Aryan" is awful because depending on the context (and also the time the literature is written) it can variably mean "Indo-European" (esp. late 19th century literature, this is also where the Nazis stole their usage of the word, even though in German language literature the term "Indogermanisch" - 'Indo-Germanic' was overwhelmingly used stead), "Indo-Iranic", "Iranic" or "Indic". With regard for the Kurdish language, every one of these definitions except the last one (Indic) applies to it.

What part, exactly, is Goga's idea, as opposed to the ideas of the paper?

Perhaps I'm the only one who is getting confused here, but, if only for my benefit, could we clarify a few things?



" CONCLUSION
Our phylogeographic data lead us to conclude that the initial episodes of R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey, and we estimate that diversification downstream of 417/Page7 occurred ~5800 years ago. This suggests the possibility [FONT=AdvMinionNormal_Rm][FONT=AdvMinionNormal_Rm] that R1a lineages accompanied demic expansions initiated during the Copper, Bronze, and Iron ages, partially replacing previous Y-chromosome strata, an interpretation consistent with albeit limited ancient DNA evidence. "


http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/pdf/ejhg201450a.pdf

[/FONT][/FONT]So, the authors are saying that R1a arose in or near the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey? I apologize in advance if this is a stupid question, as I'm not an R1a expert, nor a yDNA expert in general. I also haven't combed through the data for myself yet, although I will. So, what date does the paper give for that initial diversification? If you disagree with it, why and what date would you propose? Do you disagree with the location they propose?

[FONT=AdvMinionNormal_Rm][FONT=AdvMinionNormal_Rm]Then, according to the paper, about 4,000 B.C. or B.C.E, i.e. Before the Common Era, or about 6,000 years ago, is the date for the diversification downstream of 417, and according to them, this suggests[/FONT][/FONT] that these R1a lineages below 417 accompanied the demic expansions that began in the Copper Age. That seems pretty reasonable to me from a first analysis. Do the authors propose that the 417 mutation coalesced in that same area? And spread from there? And that therefore these Copper Age expansions and the Indo-European languages with which many associate them also spread from there?

Oh, and would this growth not correlate with the date for the adoption by this lineage of the Neolithic package, and the metallurgy that had already developed in the greater Middle East. If anyone has any data for the dates for the adoption of agriculture in and around Iran, that would be helpful too.

As for speculations on another thread, I am not at all convinced that this had anything to do with the Pottery Neolithic, or at least, let me say, I don't see any evidence for it.

 

[Goga]

Then, according to the paper, about 4,000 B.C. or B.C.E, i.e. Before the Common Era, or about 6,000 years ago, is the date for the diversification downstream of 417, and according to them, this suggests that these R1a lineages below 417 accompanied the demic expansions that began in the Copper Age. That seems pretty reasonable to me from a first analysis. Do the authors propose that the 417 mutation coalesced in that same area? And spread from there? And that therefore these Copper Age expansions and the Indo-European languages with which many associate them also spread from there?

In the paper they do write something about the Indus Valley civilization.

Mayko people that Indo-Europized the Yamna Horzion came from the Western parts of the Iranian Plateau. Like R1b! With other words, R1a came from the same area as R1b.
At the SAME time when people migrated from the Iranian Plateau into the Northern Caucasus the migration occurred from the Western parts of the Iranian plateau into the Indus Valley.
So R1a that migrated from the Zagros into Maykop became Z283 and R1a that migrated into the Indus Valley were ancestors of Z93.
R1a that later became known as L664 could have been entering Europe a little bit earlier via the Balkans.

 

[Taranis]

In the paper they do write something about the Indus Valley civilization.

Mayko people that Indo-Europized the Yamna Horzion came from the Western parts of the Iranian Plateau. Like R1b! With other words, R1a came from the same area as R1b.
At the SAME time when people migrated from the Iranian Plateau into the Northern Caucasus the migration occurred from the Western parts of the Iranian plateau into the Indus Valley.
So R1a that migrated from the Zagros into Maykop became Z283 and R1a that migrated into the Indus Valley were ancestors of Z93.
R1a that later became known as L664 could have been entering Europe a little bit earlier via the Balkans.

Actually, I have a question here: I was under the impression that you were in favour of the Anatolian Hypothesis? Have you now changed (considering that you invoke the Indus Valley Civilization here) in favour of the Out-of-India hypothesis?

 

[Goga]

Actually, I have a question here: I was under the impression that you were in favour of the Anatolian Hypothesis? Have you now changed (considering that you invoke the Indus Valley Civilization here) in favour of the Out-of-India hypothesis?

More in favor of the hypothesis of Gamkrelidze and Ivanov.

The Indus Valley Civilization was like Maykop Civilization a Bronze Age civilization and both civilizations were highly influenced by West Asian Sumer Civilization. Sumer predates all of them! And Maykop Civilization in turn Indo Europized the Yamna Horizon.

There're many parallels between the Maykop and Indus Valley civilizations, like bull and the SUN worshipping. But the first known Sun and bull worshippers were the Sumerians.

Possible migration of S224, ancestral to both Z283 in East Europe and Z93 in SouthCentral Asia!

 

[Sile]

More in favor of the hypothesis of Gamkrelidze and Ivanov.

The Indus Valley Civilization was like Maykop Civilization a Bronze Age civilization and both civilizations were highly influenced by West Asian Sumer Civilization. Sumer predates all of them! And Maykop Civilization in turn Indo Europized the Yamna Horizon.

There're many parallels between the Maykop and Indus Valley civilizations, like bull and the SUN worshipping. But the first known Sun and bull worshippers were the Sumerians.

Possible migration of S224, ancestral to both Z283 in East Europe and Z93 in SouthCentral Asia!

so, haplogroup P which was around Tajikstan went to your probable area and became R ...or
R formed from P around tajikstan , went to your probable area and became R1a there .....or
went to your probable after becoming R1a in and around tajikstan

 

[Aberdeen]

More in favor of the hypothesis of Gamkrelidze and Ivanov.

The Indus Valley Civilization was like Maykop Civilization a Bronze Age civilization and both civilizations were highly influenced by West Asian Sumer Civilization. Sumer predates all of them! And Maykop Civilization in turn Indo Europized the Yamna Horizon.

There're many parallels between the Maykop and Indus Valley civilizations, like bull and the SUN worshipping. But the first known Sun and bull worshippers were the Sumerians.

Possible migration of S224, ancestral to both Z283 in East Europe and Z93 in SouthCentral Asia!

So, is there any particular reason that the R1a folk migrated to the Russian steppes by going around the Caspian Sea, rather than just going north before turning west? I think going straight north would have been a much shorter route. And what about all the historical and archeological evidence that the Medes and Persians invaded the area that is modern Iran from Central Asia more than two millennia after the time period we're talking about? I personally think the current genetic makeup of Iran tells us nothing much about who was living there 5800 years before present. If you think the later invasions from central Asia were examples of "back migration", perhaps you can show us the ancient DNA evidence to confirm that.