Politics Balkanian disagreements.

[Piro Ilir]

kastrioti was a genitsar,
albanian were not obey to pay blood taxation the times kastrioti was born,
cause they were outside of beyazit and murad empire,

how come then kastrioti was a genitsar?


except offcourse, if the Albanian origin of Kastrioti is a myth,
and he was like Aryanit

When Kastrioti was born , their principality was vassal of ottoman empire. Why are you making it a big deal ?

 

[Piro Ilir]

Why are wa talking about Slavic languages? What's the point of that? Where are you going with it?
Are you joking here or you really don't understand my question?! You're really starting to convince me that Albanians don't understand IE syntax's logic.




Post #477 contains maps that present continuity for the last 100 years. Congratulations! Is that what you're trying to convince me? That Albanians have been on Balkans only 100-200 years?





I' don't understand what you're talking about. What is wrong with you ppl....

This thread is not exclusively about Albanians. It's about Balkans. Balkans is mainly inhabited by the ancestors of the Slavic tribes including modern Slav Macedonians

 

[Piro Ilir]

WARNING: FAKE MAP



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_dialects
Original map of Albanian dialects

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania
Macedonian and some Greek minority groups have sharply criticized Article 20 of the Census law, according to which a $1,000 fine will be imposed on anyone who will declare an ethnicity other than what is stated on his or her birth certificate. This is claimed to be an attempt to intimidate minorities into declaring Albanian ethnicity, according to them the Albanian government has stated that it will jail anyone who does not participate in the census or refuse to declare his or her ethnicity.



Council of Europe: Albania Is A Multiethnic State
The official report on minorities by the Albanian Government says that only 2% of the population in Albania are not [ethnic] Albanians. This information has been presented to the public since the time of the ultra-communist ruler Enver Hoxha.

Last October, Council of Europe's mission visited Albania and formed a Center for Ethnic Research in Tirana. In April 2002, the Center delivered a questionnaire of 33 questions to the Albanian population all over the country.
"The results of this research show that about one million or 35% of the total population in the country are members of minorities. This makes Albania a multiethnic state," said the Director of the Center for Ethnic Research in Tirana, Kimet Fetahu.

According the initial research results, seven minority ethnic groups live in Albania: Macedonians, Greeks, Vlachs, Egyptians, Roma, Serbs and Montenegrins.
The biggest minorities are the Macedonians and the Greeks. The smallest minorities are the Serbs and the Montenegrins. There are 5 organizations of Macedonians in Albania, 2 of the Vlachs, 2 of the Roma, 2 of the Egyptians, 1 of the Greeks and 1 joint organization of the Serbs and Montenegrins.

The minority organizations cooperate poorly with the media, the political parties and NGOs in Albania. A large degree of discrimination exists in the education and employment policy of the Albanian Government. These results are expected to be included in the Year Report of the Council of Europe for minorities in Albania at the end of September 2002.

Tell me just a city which is inhabited mainly by non Albanians, even before the Albanian independence. There was only one city during the ottoman empire inhabited by Vlachs (voscopolje) . There will be no more Macedonia without Albanians. I like Macedonia, so I hope it doesn't happen

 

[Piro Ilir]

IIRC, Macedonian slavs are genetically linked more with bulgarian slavs than with serbian slavs ...................the logical scenario is these bulgars settled in macedonia around the year 1000AD

Yes, it seems their center was ohrid.

 

[Piro Ilir]

Would have is far way from did, especially when you're trying to pull continuity from Pelasgians, and having trouble with 1200 AD.

Illyrian Albanian English
Ulc ujk wolf
Bilia bija daughter
Sica thica knife

 

[Piro Ilir]

Ukaj
You think that tosks are manipulating encyclopedia Britannica? Weird.

Tosk dialect is influenced by the gheg dialect because the yllirians all the time were migrating further south. Dardans were a threat all the time against the macedonians. Migrants from Illyria were migrating all the time further south during ancient periods and either later. No surprise. It seems to me that your opinions are influenced from political reasons.

I think that the official standard Albanian language should be reloaded. Whether the tosk and gheg words should be part of the standard language.

Till this moment we don't have enough evidences to conclude which of the dialects is the oldest one.

(I hate communism and I hate the Hoxha's regime too)

 

[ukaj]

Firstly: your map is a bit wrong. The line is a bit further north including the northern region of Lushnja (Divjaka) .

According to encyclopedia Britannica: the split between gheg and tosk happened more than 1000 years ago. According to the linguistic rules a dialect needs centuries to evolve. So at least the split happened 1500 years ago. According to what I elaborated above, the tosk is a separate branch of the Albanian language. Both the tosk and the gheg during the Roman invasion had lost many words, replaced with Latin words. Because we hate communism, it doesn't mean we should deny the history of Albanians. Tosks were part of epirus since the ancient times.

Maybe little wrong anyway makes no diffrence.I dont care if they say it split 1000yrs ago or even tomorrow that does not change the fact in medievil times most of albania was speaking gheg albanian.Yes we did lose much old latin but we still retain much of it but my dilect was basicly stopped because of the tosk goverments in power..

 

[ukaj]

Your claim is just nonsense. Whether linguistic nonsense and demographic nonsense. Albanians were not rabbits. Some ghegs in some isolated pockets in highlands of north Albania suddenly spread within just a century throughout the whole epirus and Greece mainland. [emoji23] . It's demographically nonsense.

prove it to me? So you are telling me arbreshe an arvaties have kept their language from medievil times with no influece from greeks an italian? hahah.pirro im sure you said arbreshe an arbanties are tosks then show me why their is no gheg within these people.its only Its only demographically nonsense because You cant prove you dielct.gheg albanians been migrating into greece in some of the first migrations,this thing pirro.
To much of tosks belive they shit dont stick its time for you southerns to learn some truth.So you telling me now gheg is now spoken by tosks?An you telling me that my dilect GHEG was not written down in most of albania?lol is ok vlla ju mire? is only nonsense because you dilect was not seen or mention.

 

[ukaj]

Ukaj
You think that tosks are manipulating encyclopedia Britannica? Weird.

Tosk dialect is influenced by the gheg dialect because the yllirians all the time were migrating further south. Dardans were a threat all the time against the macedonians. Migrants from Illyria were migrating all the time further south during ancient periods and either later. No surprise. It seems to me that your opinions are influenced from political reasons.

I think that the official standard Albanian language should be reloaded. Whether the tosk and gheg words should be part of the standard language.

Till this moment we don't have enough evidences to conclude which of the dialects is the oldest one.

(I hate communism and I hate the Hoxha's regime too)

I think gheg albanian need to be studied more,My opinion is not from political reason,My dilect has gone through some changes because tosks wanted 1 language
much much older.Albanian people came from north area not south,Their is much evidence but you dont want to see because it is to much for you..,An yes my dilect is much older.nasal vowels much more.pre indo european much older.etc that fact is that my dilect was spoken all over albania an recorded an tosk was not.not to mention.you answered your own question yes illyrians did migrate south they have been for long long time,maybe you should watch this video will give you a idea

proto albanian was spoken north of the latin jiricek an gheg is latin based alphabet.witch means migrations did happen in the 13 ctry.Their could be few meanings to this,gheg albanians didnt leave they remained,gheg albanian is much closer to proto albanians since they use latin still.gheg albanians lived icolated witch with proof the genetics is very old eb1.but that doesnt make to much sense as most of arbanties an arbreshe have same dna of eb1..anyhow not care much for britannica,if want to read what says then this would mean epirus is not our ancient land if you want to get right into that question,arta i do belive is albanian without doubt no matter what.this is albanian word forsure an is some names of my cousin,arta,aferdita are very much in north aswell an south.

 

[Ike]

I said generally accepted by serious scholars.

Two young guys who trying to calm the waters between the crazy people of Balkans is not something to take serious [emoji6].

It is NOT accepted by serious scholars. It was just a hypothesis and it was not proven last 150 years. Stop making things up!

Why the words known of illyrian origin fits only with Albanian, not with Hellenic not with serb, nor with other Balkans languages?

You are insulting the forum with your claims. At least you should bring some arguments

You're lying and insulting the whole forum. They are not proven to fit.

Totally agree with your post. I think that the official language of Macedonia should be the Albanian, especially the tosk dialect which could be the closest to the ancient one.

When did Ancient Macedonian started to look Shqiptar language? This is ridiculous. Another lie of yours.

Illyrian Albanian English
Ulc ujk wolf
Bilia bija daughter
Sica thica knife

Where did you get these examples? You claim that you know Illyrian words for wolf, daughter and knife? Where from?!

Ukaj
Tosk dialect is influenced by the gheg dialect because the yllirians all the time were migrating further south. Dardans were a threat all the time against the macedonians. Migrants from Illyria were migrating all the time further south during ancient periods and either later. No surprise. It seems to me that your opinions are influenced from political reasons.

Look into mirror first.... I can't believe that a serious person would dare posting things what you write. I can only day that you are a LIAR AND A DECEPTIVE person, whose posts should be disregarded, what I intend to do from now on....

 

[ukaj]

Firstly: your map is a bit wrong. The line is a bit further north including the northern region of Lushnja (Divjaka) .

According to encyclopedia Britannica: the split between gheg and tosk happened more than 1000 years ago. According to the linguistic rules a dialect needs centuries to evolve. So at least the split happened 1500 years ago. According to what I elaborated above, the tosk is a separate branch of the Albanian language. Both the tosk and the gheg during the Roman invasion had lost many words, replaced with Latin words. Because we hate communism, it doesn't mean we should deny the history of Albanians. Tosks were part of epirus since the ancient times.

show me where tosks were in epirus from ancient times?. Differences between the two groups were quite pronounced before World War II. Until the communist takeover in 1944, Albanian politics were dominated by the more numerous Gegs. Renowned for their independent spirit and fighting abilities, they traditionally opposed outside authority, whether that of foreign invaders or that of the Albanian central government. Traditional Geg society was based on tribal groups, each one led by a clan chieftain, or bajraktar. Under the communist regime, this clan system largely disappeared from Albania, but the patriarchal families characteristic of the Gegs are still evident among ethnic Albanians in Serbia, Montenegro, Kosovo, and Macedonia.Because their southern territories were easily accessible to the outside world, the Tosks were more subject to foreign influence than the Gegs. Before World War II, theirs was a mostly semifeudal society. The peasantry, which made up most of the population, lived at the subsistence level, while a small group of large landowners controlled about two-thirds of the land. The communist movement drew most of its initial support from Tosks in the south.

Tosk dialect is influenced by the gheg dialect because the yllirians all the time were migrating further south. Dardans were a threat all the time against the macedonians. Migrants from Illyria were migrating all the time further south during ancient periods and either later. No surprise. It seems to me that your opinions are influenced from political reasons. Dardans hmmm hear we go. yopu claiming again things that ghegs fought for dardania was part of my ancestors an yours.from readig this you belive tosks are true macedonians an epiruts?The Albanian language, called shqip or shqipe by Albanians, is of interest to linguists because, as a descendant of the extinct Illyrian tongue, it is the only surviving member of its branch of the Indo-European language family. Influenced by centuries of rule by foreigners, the Albanian vocabulary has adopted many words from the Latin, Greek, Turkish, Italian, and Slavic tongues. There are two principal dialects:Geg, spoken north of the Shkumbin River, and Tosk, spoken in the south. Geg dialects are also spoken in Serbia, Montenegro, Kosovo, and Macedonia, and Tosk dialects, though somewhat archaic as a result of centuries of separation from their place of origin in Albania, are prominent in the Albanian communities of Greece and Italy. Although there are variations even within these two dialects, Albanians can understand one another with no difficulty.Because official business and ecclesiastical functions had long been conducted in Latin or Greek, Albanian did not acquire a definitive orthography until 1908, when a writing system was adopted based on the Roman alphabet. Before this time, publications written in Albania used a mix of different alphabets—namely, Latin, Greek, Turko-Arabic, and Cyrillic. Attempts were then made in following decades to create a unified language based on the Geg dialect of the central Elbasan region; however, all printed materials were published in Tosk until 1972, when a Congress of Orthography was convened in Tirana, and a unified Albanian language based on Tosk was established.One day you will learn the truth,maybe arbreshe speak the tosk dilect with admixture with gheg,but just goes to show how much you southerns lost your ways.

I think that the official standard Albanian language should be reloaded. Whether the tosk and gheg words should be part of the standard language.

Till this moment we don't have enough evidences to conclude which of the dialects is the oldest one.

(I hate communism and I hate the Hoxha's regime too)[/QUOTE]Even said that i dont agree that all arbreshe an arbanties were all tosks their is no way.An my reason for this posts is to show people who really albanians were,If this is true about medievil arbreshe an arbanties are the old albanians then you my friends were never albanians in the first place,because GHEG WAS WRITTEN DOWN FROM THE TIMES ARBRESHE AN ARBANTIES WERE IN BALKANS.See my point.

 

[ukaj]

Illyrian Albanian English
Ulc ujk wolf
Bilia bija daughter
Sica thica knife

Can you show me old albanian places in epirus that is of our people.other than arta,chemira,morea.show me something of only tosk dilect.only the tosk people in areas that only has meaning in their dilect..I want see,you showed ulq that is my first name because of the area i am from an my gheg dilect again.mal i zi. nis you know what means? what a joke no wonder albanian people are so devided.my southern brothers always think they better than us an fail at to try prove so.simple piro why you have name pirro?was he tosk? man you need learn alot of albanian history my old gheg brother because you may have lost alot due to living on the lower plains,

 

[Sile]

from an english author in albania in 1865

The difference between the Gheg and Tosk dialects is as great as between German and Danish; they do not understand one another, or, at most, can only hold communication in the simplest things, and that with difficulty. The distinction of dress is not as marked as has sometimes been represented. The red jacket is generally peculiar to the Ghegs, the white capote to the Tosks; the Ghegs also frequently wear the short white trouser, which the Tosks do not; but none of these rules are of invariable application. Another difference also exists in respect of the form which Christianity takes in the two tribes; speaking roughly, the small number of Ghegs who have maintained their allegiance to the Christian religion are Roman Catholics, while the Christian Tosks are of the orthodox communion. It is probably a consequence of this that the Ghegs, in writing, use the Latin letters, the Tosks the Greek; for the national alphabet, which I have mentioned above, does not seem to be much used. The hereditary opposition between the tribes is so strong, that when they are serving together in the Turkish army feuds will break out among them, and the Turks have at times turned this animosity to their own advantage, by employing them to put down insurrections in one another’s country.

 

[ukaj]

from an english author in albania in 1865

The difference between the Gheg and Tosk dialects is as great as between German and Danish; they do not understand one another, or, at most, can only hold communication in the simplest things, and that with difficulty. The distinction of dress is not as marked as has sometimes been represented. The red jacket is generally peculiar to the Ghegs, the white capote to the Tosks; the Ghegs also frequently wear the short white trouser, which the Tosks do not; but none of these rules are of invariable application. Another difference also exists in respect of the form which Christianity takes in the two tribes; speaking roughly, the small number of Ghegs who have maintained their allegiance to the Christian religion are Roman Catholics, while the Christian Tosks are of the orthodox communion. It is probably a consequence of this that the Ghegs, in writing, use the Latin letters, the Tosks the Greek; for the national alphabet, which I have mentioned above, does not seem to be much used. The hereditary opposition between the tribes is so strong, that when they are serving together in the Turkish army feuds will break out among them, and the Turks have at times turned this animosity to their own advantage, by employing them to put down insurrections in one another’s country.

yes to a point agree.but for the dress we also once wore the dalmitica.as for not know understanding eachother you can but you have to listen that little bit more.The tosk also wear the trouser aswell in some regions,as do the arbreshe they also use the red jacket an trouser.But yes we did feud alot.today we still do as you can see lol.I am catholic also sile.An my family are sworn to the kanuni i lek dukagjinit this help us alot through out history

 

[Sile]

yes to a point agree.but for the dress we also once wore the dalmitica.as for not know understanding eachother you can but you have to listen that little bit more.The tosk also wear the trouser aswell in some regions,as do the arbreshe they also use the red jacket an trouser.But yes we did feud alot.today we still do as you can see lol.I am catholic also sile.An my family are sworn to the kanuni i lek dukagjinit this help us alot through out history

I think its better for the Albanian nation to be split in half between gheg and tosks lines so the world does not loose one of these ethnic identities and language/dialect

 

[Piro Ilir]

Maybe little wrong anyway makes no diffrence.I dont care if they say it split 1000yrs ago or even tomorrow that does not change the fact in medievil times most of albania was speaking gheg albanian.Yes we did lose much old latin but we still retain much of it but my dilect was basicly stopped because of the tosk goverments in power..

1- Standard official Albanian language is mostly from tosk words. Although it has some gheg words. Indeed, the standard language it's killing the dialects both, but mostly the gheg. I think Albania should rewrite the standard language and use both gheg and tosk, because both are important for the history and for the culture heritage of Balkans.

As I see from your posts you don't like the old system communist. Me too. But I don't hate the other branch of Albanian just because they were more part of the old system. I really wish that in Albania would have not an official language. In USA and in Britain they don't have an official language .

 

[Piro Ilir]

prove it to me? So you are telling me arbreshe an arvaties have kept their language from medievil times with no influece from greeks an italian? hahah.pirro im sure you said arbreshe an arbanties are tosks then show me why their is no gheg within these people.its only Its only demographically nonsense because You cant prove you dielct.gheg albanians been migrating into greece in some of the first migrations,this thing pirro.
To much of tosks belive they shit dont stick its time for you southerns to learn some truth.So you telling me now gheg is now spoken by tosks?An you telling me that my dilect GHEG was not written down in most of albania?lol is ok vlla ju mire? is only nonsense because you dilect was not seen or mention.

First :my dialect is not tosk.

Second: I am saying that in south Greece (Peloponnesian, Attica, beotia) Albanians were numerous . Also they were in large amounts in south Italy. In south Italy they came from south Greece. Albanians were not rabbits. They can't spread so quickly throughout modern Montenegro, modern north Albania, throughout the whole epirus, throughout south Greece and in many settlements throughout south Italy till to Sicily. They couldn't populate these large areas so quickly within one or maximum two centuries. You are saying that your compatriots were rabbits with a birthrate like rabbits.

 

[Piro Ilir]

I think gheg albanian need to be studied more,My opinion is not from political reason,My dilect has gone through some changes because tosks wanted 1 language
much much older.Albanian people came from north area not south,Their is much evidence but you dont want to see because it is to much for you..,An yes my dilect is much older.nasal vowels much more.pre indo european much older.etc that fact is that my dilect was spoken all over albania an recorded an tosk was not.not to mention.you answered your own question yes illyrians did migrate south they have been for long long time,maybe you should watch this video will give you a idea

proto albanian was spoken north of the latin jiricek an gheg is latin based alphabet.witch means migrations did happen in the 13 ctry.Their could be few meanings to this,gheg albanians didnt leave they remained,gheg albanian is much closer to proto albanians since they use latin still.gheg albanians lived icolated witch with proof the genetics is very old eb1.but that doesnt make to much sense as most of arbanties an arbreshe have same dna of eb1..anyhow not care much for britannica,if want to read what says then this would mean epirus is not our ancient land if you want to get right into that question,arta i do belive is albanian without doubt no matter what.this is albanian word forsure an is some names of my cousin,arta,aferdita are very much in north aswell an south.

Probably proto illyrian migrated from the north, when they came from supposed pontic steppes. So it makes sense that firstly they settled in modern ghegland than in toskland. Tosk and gheg probably evolved independently from each other. The tosk was influenced during a certain point of history from the gheg because of some migrations. But that's all. The core of the tosk is pure, it's different from the gheg. They survived to the helenization


The theory of the Jirenek line has a lot of holes, and is influenced by anti Albanian circles.

 

[Piro Ilir]

It is NOT accepted by serious scholars. It was just a hypothesis and it was not proven last 150 years. Stop making things up!



You're lying and insulting the whole forum. They are not proven to fit.



When did Ancient Macedonian started to look Shqiptar language? This is ridiculous. Another lie of yours.




Where did you get these examples? You claim that you know Illyrian words for wolf, daughter and knife? Where from?!



Look into mirror first.... I can't believe that a serious person would dare posting things what you write. I can only day that you are a LIAR AND A DECEPTIVE person, whose posts should be disregarded, what I intend to do from now on....

Now. You're insulting me. Calling me liar many times and with other epithets . All we know how ended the last war between Serbia and Albania. All we know how ended the last war in Macedonia between alb Macedonian and sllav Macedonian . Insulting others personally in internet shows only that the man is just coward.

Is not my fault that you failed, because you don't have arguments. Go find some reliable arguments and after come back.

 

[Piro Ilir]

show me where tosks were in epirus from ancient times?. Differences between the two groups were quite pronounced before World War II. Until the communist takeover in 1944, Albanian politics were dominated by the more numerous Gegs. Renowned for their independent spirit and fighting abilities, they traditionally opposed outside authority, whether that of foreign invaders or that of the Albanian central government. Traditional Geg society was based on tribal groups, each one led by a clan chieftain, or bajraktar. Under the communist regime, this clan system largely disappeared from Albania, but the patriarchal families characteristic of the Gegs are still evident among ethnic Albanians in Serbia, Montenegro, Kosovo, and Macedonia.Because their southern territories were easily accessible to the outside world, the Tosks were more subject to foreign influence than the Gegs. Before World War II, theirs was a mostly semifeudal society. The peasantry, which made up most of the population, lived at the subsistence level, while a small group of large landowners controlled about two-thirds of the land. The communist movement drew most of its initial support from Tosks in the south.

Tosk dialect is influenced by the gheg dialect because the yllirians all the time were migrating further south. Dardans were a threat all the time against the macedonians. Migrants from Illyria were migrating all the time further south during ancient periods and either later. No surprise. It seems to me that your opinions are influenced from political reasons. Dardans hmmm hear we go. yopu claiming again things that ghegs fought for dardania was part of my ancestors an yours.from readig this you belive tosks are true macedonians an epiruts?The Albanian language, called shqip or shqipe by Albanians, is of interest to linguists because, as a descendant of the extinct Illyrian tongue, it is the only surviving member of its branch of the Indo-European language family. Influenced by centuries of rule by foreigners, the Albanian vocabulary has adopted many words from the Latin, Greek, Turkish, Italian, and Slavic tongues. There are two principal dialects:Geg, spoken north of the Shkumbin River, and Tosk, spoken in the south. Geg dialects are also spoken in Serbia, Montenegro, Kosovo, and Macedonia, and Tosk dialects, though somewhat archaic as a result of centuries of separation from their place of origin in Albania, are prominent in the Albanian communities of Greece and Italy. Although there are variations even within these two dialects, Albanians can understand one another with no difficulty.Because official business and ecclesiastical functions had long been conducted in Latin or Greek, Albanian did not acquire a definitive orthography until 1908, when a writing system was adopted based on the Roman alphabet. Before this time, publications written in Albania used a mix of different alphabets—namely, Latin, Greek, Turko-Arabic, and Cyrillic. Attempts were then made in following decades to create a unified language based on the Geg dialect of the central Elbasan region; however, all printed materials were published in Tosk until 1972, when a Congress of Orthography was convened in Tirana, and a unified Albanian language based on Tosk was established.One day you will learn the truth,maybe arbreshe speak the tosk dilect with admixture with gheg,but just goes to show how much you southerns lost your ways.

I think that the official standard Albanian language should be reloaded. Whether the tosk and gheg words should be part of the standard language.

Till this moment we don't have enough evidences to conclude which of the dialects is the oldest one.

(I hate communism and I hate the Hoxha's regime too)

Even said that i dont agree that all arbreshe an arbanties were all tosks their is no way.An my reason for this posts is to show people who really albanians were,If this is true about medievil arbreshe an arbanties are the old albanians then you my friends were never albanians in the first place,because GHEG WAS WRITTEN DOWN FROM THE TIMES ARBRESHE AN ARBANTIES WERE IN BALKANS.See my point. [/QUOTE]
Mollos was the name of an ancient epirot tribe. You can find easily Albanian settlements called Mollas. Dardha also . Either in ghegland and in toskland. Tosks calls the people of dardha, -dardhar. In ghegland were are also settlements called dardha, the inhabitants are called dardhan.