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Thread: Massive migration from the steppe - extended discussion

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    Red-haired maybe but not blond-haired - like most of ancient R1a which is blond-haired.

    Also R1a people were those who brought blond hair to Scandinavia.

    As I wrote before, R1a Z284 (or its ancestral clade) was in Scandinavia before R1b.

    Another question is when did I1 come to Scandinavia (it was not among Pitted Ware, it is not native to Scandinavia, it was among LBK farmers from Hungary, who were later absorbed by Corded Ware). IMO Battle Axe culture (a branch of CW) was R1a Z284 mixed with I1 (who were originally LBK farmers, but got absorbed by Corded). Probably I1 acquired blond hair from R1a-related maternal lineages and later both were spreading it. Another evidence for mixing between Corded Ware and previous LBK farmers is that R1a M417 guy from Esperstedt (his mtDNA was H23, which was most probably acquired from Neolithic farmers of LBK - an evidence that pastoralist males of Corded Ware mixed with farmer women who had been there before).

    So we have R1a Z284 + I1 coming to Scandinavia with Corded Ware (Battle Axe culture) and R1b came later.

    ===========================

    How "Uraloid" are actually the Udmurts ??? They speak a language from Uralic family, but "Uraloid" is an anthropological term (not linguistic).

    The Udmurts look like regular Eastern Europeans, not like Uraloids. When I googled Uraloid I got people looking like this:

    For example like this

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    And Baltic Finnic N1c1 could acquire blond hair from R1a-related maternal lineages in Karelia.

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    https://www.facebook.com/groups/G.M201/permalink/10152753616688813/

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    These are very rare cases.

    On the other hand among those Bronze and Iron Age cultures where majority of males were R1a, blond hair was common.

    =============================

    Wait - has someone just deleted a lot of posts from this thread ???

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    OK, I can see that our discussion was not deleted, but split to another thread (link below):

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ded-discussion

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    NE7
    Light hair and blue eyes in Neolithic Hungary 6400 years ago with EEF ancestry
    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Gnh19OW6tc...mms6257-f3.jpg
    http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2014/10/...ehistoric.html

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    He was not BLOND, he was BROWN.

    Blue eyes were already in dark-pigmented (dark-skinned) La Brana from Spain, so blue eyes are much older than blond hair:

    https://www.google.pl/search?q=La+Br...S-OcTbapPwgvgK

    ================================

    As for blond hair:

    Maybe blond hair mutation emerged among those hunter-gatherers from the vicinity of Karelia.

    This would explain why today Finland has a lot of blond despite being mostly N1c1.

    7500 - 7000 years ago Karelia was where ancestors of R1a M417 and N1c1 Finns had contact.

    Valtaves wrote about this here:

    http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...-Europe/page31

    "It seems that two groups, possibly lineages or clans, were using Oleneostrovskii Mogilnik. This is evident from two spatial clusters within the cemetery: the northern cluster is associated with moose sculptures (fig. 2) and the southern cluster with snake and human effigies. The snake and human representations seem to be combined into a single zooanthropomorphic tradition, different from the northern group, whose identity was symbolized by moose representations. Thus, two separate populations shared the use of Oleneostrovskii Mogilnik. The northern cluster was used by people with northern European and Uralic features, more indigenous to the area, while the southern area was used by people with southern European and Siberian features, who might have been newcomers to the area. This interpretation underlines the genetic heterogeneity of the people who used the cemetery. Rather than supporting the existence of two distinct, non-communicating groups, these graduated differences in appearance and genetic makeup instead may reflect "unimpeded gene flow" across the forest zone of eastern Europe, brought about by long-distance travel, intermarriage, and partner exchange that was usual among the northern hunter-gatherer populations."

    http://what-when-how.com/ancient-eur...ncient-europe/

    So apparently in the same little island lived two different cultural spheres, with different set of physical features, using the same burial ground.

    1 "Uralic"+Northern European

    2 "Siberian"+ Southern European
    Check also:

    http://www.kunstkamera.ru/en/tempora.../gerasimov/10/

    Skeletons from YuzhnyOleniyIsland were studied by many anthropologists (the most detailed examination was undertaken by V.P. Yakimov). Stature was rather high for that time – about 173 cm in males. While most people were Caucasoids, some display Mongoloid characteristics – flat faces and rather flat noses.
    So probably blond hair was originally shared by both R1a1 (xM417) and N1c1. Later it was acquired by I1.

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    There is no correlation between R1b and blond hair.

    But those kurgan cultures which were found to be R1a - were also found to be light-pigmented.

    Andronovo, Tachtyk, Pazyryk, Tagar & Tocharian = R1a with a lot of blond + light brown + brown hair.

    This is evident both from pigmentation extracted from genes, and from hair preserved in mummies:













    Proto-Tocharians were R1a1:

    In 1934 Swedish archaeologist Folke Bergman discovered some 200 mummies of fair-haired Caucasian people in the Tarim Basin in Northwest China (a region known as Xinjiang, East Turkestan or Uyghurstan). The oldest of these mummies date back to 2000 BCE and all 7 male remains tested by Li et al. (2010), were positive for the R1a1 mutations.
    ============================

    Of course not all of them were blond & brown hair. Red hair & dark hair could also be found.

    Blue and green eyes were most common among them:















    =========================

    About pigmentation derived from genes (in addition to pigmentation preserved in mummies) I wrote here:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post449880

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    CHECK ALSO:

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...l#pigmentation

    R1 populations spread genes for light skin, blond hair and red hair

    There is now strong evidence that both R1a and R1b people contributed to the diffusion of the A111T mutation of the SLC24A5, which explains apporximately 35% of skin tone difference between Europeans and Africans, and most variations within South Asia. The distribution pattern of the A111T allele (rs1426654) of matches almost perfectly the spread of Indo-European R1a and R1b lineages around Europe, the Middle East, Central Asia and South Asia. The mutation was probably passed on in the Early neolithic to other Near Eastern populations, which explains why Neolithic farmers in Europe already carried the A111T allele (e.g. Keller 2012 p.4, Lazaridis 2014 suppl. 7), although at lower frequency than modern Europeans and southern Central Asians.

    The light skin allele is also found at a range of 15 to 30% in in various ethnic groups in northern sub-Saharan Africa, mostly in the Sahel and savannah zones inhabited by tribes of R1b-V88 cattle herders like the Fulani and the Hausa. This would presuppose that the A111T allele was already present among all R1b people before the Pre-Pottery Neolithic split between V88 and P297. R1a populations have an equally high incidence of this allele as R1b populations. On the other hand, the A111T mutation was absent from the 24,000-year-old R* sample from Siberia, and is absent from most modern R2 populations in Southeast India and Southeast Asia. Consequently, it can be safely assumed that the mutation arose among the R1* lineage during the late Upper Paleolithic, probably some time between 20,000 and 13,000 years ago.

    Fair hair was another physical trait associated with the Indo-Europeans. In contrast, the genes for blue eyes were already present among Mesolithic Europeans belonging to Y-haplogroup I. The genes for blond hair are more strongly correlated with the distribution of haplogroup R1a, but those for red hair have not been found in Europe before the Bronze Age, and appear to have been spread primarily by R1b people (=> see The origins of red hair).
    AND THIS:

    http://dienekes.blogspot.fi/2014/08/...o-ugrians.html

    Indo-Europeans preceded Finno-Ugrians in Finland and Estonia

    An archaic (Northwest-)Indo-European language
    and a subsequently extinct Paleo-European language were likely spoken in what is now called Finland and Estonia, when the linguistic ancestors of the Finns and the Sami arrived in the eastern and northern Baltic Sea region from the Volga-Kama region probably at the beginning of the Bronze Age.
    So our Karelian R1a1 hunter-gatherer from 5500 - 5000 BCE most likely spoke an archaic (Northwest-)Indo-European language.

    This, in addition to what I wrote already before (quote below), perfectly fits the big picture:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans

    The Proto-Indo-Europeans likely lived during the late Neolithic, or roughly the 4th millennium BC [4000 - 3000 BCE). Mainstream scholarship places them in the forest-steppe zone immediately to the north of the western end of the Pontic-Caspian steppe in Eastern Europe. Some archaeologists would extend the time depth of PIE to the middle Neolithic (5500 to 4500 BCE) or even the early Neolithic (7500 to 5500 BC), and suggest alternative location hypotheses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    It's possible this is how R1a* entered the Pontic Caspian Steppes FIRST and LATER invaded Eastern and Central Europe from there :

    Ivanov is a genius!


    Armenian Model by Vyacheslav Vsevolodovich Ivanov & Tamaz V. Gamkrelidze



    Thanks for this map. Except that I think it more applies to R1b rather than R1a. Check out this map in this old thread:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post411715

    Not having time to read all this fascinating new stuff in this thread, but your map from Ivanov jumped into my eye.
    It fits well the Indo-Iranian autosomal trail shown in the link above and coincides well with the Gedrosian tendency in NW-Europe.
    I'm also pleased that R1b was confirmed at the eastern edge of Yamna because my theory is that R1b went through Central Asia before reaching the pontic steppe, instead of directly crossing the Caucasus north. But I'm not sure yet. It is also possible that the central asian Kelteminar culture (having cultural similarity to the NE-European Comb-Ceramic culture) is the ancestor of these R1b people.

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    For Roberto and Tomenable

    According the website nature (sorry I can't post the link), the main haplgroup Y of Khanty and Mansi peoples are R1A1 followed by N2 and N3, that represent 96% and 84% of their haplogroup, that explain easily why in some rare case, they have light hairs and eyes (imo to post modern pictures of "mixed" eurasian peoples is not really judicious).

    I agree with you Tomenable (except maybe the "no correlation R1b/blond hair"), very interesting links and articles, thank you for that.
    Last edited by Drax; 15-02-15 at 18:09.

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    ElHorsto, when it comes to this Armenian Hypothesis:

    The problem with it is that Indo-European R1b (P297) and R1a (M417) were already present to the north of Caucasus 7500 years ago, among hunters:



    And now let's see what is the Armenian Hypothesis about:

    The Armenian hypothesis of the Proto-Indo-European Urheimat, based on the Glottalic theory suggests that the Proto-Indo-European language was spoken during the 4th millennium BC [4000 - 3000 BCE] in the Armenian Highland.
    Why should PIE be spoken in the Armenian Highland in 4000 BCE, if genetically Indo-European people lived in Russia already in 5500 BCE ???

    So a more probable hypothesis is that PIE Urheimat was in the forest-steppe zone of Eastern Europe - this one:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans

    http://dienekes.blogspot.fi/2014/08/...o-ugrians.html

    The Proto-Indo-Europeans likely lived during the late Neolithic, or roughly the 4th millennium BC [4000 - 3000 BCE]. Mainstream scholarship places them in the forest-steppe zone immediately to the north of the western end of the Pontic-Caspian steppe in Eastern Europe. Some archaeologists would extend the time depth of PIE to the middle Neolithic (5500 to 4500 BCE) or even the early Neolithic (7500 to 5500 BC), and suggest alternative location hypotheses.
    Indo-Europeans preceded Finno-Ugrians in Finland and Estonia

    An archaic (Northwest-)Indo-European language
    and a subsequently extinct Paleo-European language were likely spoken in what is now called Finland and Estonia, when the linguistic ancestors of the Finns and the Sami arrived in the eastern and northern Baltic Sea region from the Volga-Kama region probably at the beginning of the Bronze Age.
    So Eastern European hunters who spoke archaic PIE, switched to pastoralism and settled the steppe.

    Maybe they also mixed with people south of them (but what hg-s did those people have? because R1a and R1b had already been present in Russia before).
    Last edited by Tomenable; 16-02-15 at 01:56.

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    As for the role of N1c1:

    As you know Balts have a lot of N1c1. And Lithuanians according to Haak 2015 have a lot of Yamnaya admixture autosomally.

    So maybe some N1c1 (but rather a very small amount) was also present among archaic Proto-Indo-Europeans ???

    Norwegians (who have more R1a and R1b than other Scandinavians) and Lithuanians (R1a + N1c1) are very Yamnaya-like.

    =========================

    And according to Eupedia:

    The N1c1 subclade found in Europe likely arose in Southern Siberia 12,000 years ago, and spread to north-eastern Europe 10,000 years ago. It is associated with the Kunda culture (8000-5000 BCE) and the subsequent Comb Ceramic culture (4200-2000 BCE), which evolved into Finnic and pre-Baltic people.
    So it could be already present in Karelia 7500 - 7000 years ago.

    ==================================

    Yakuts (who are Turkic, not Finnic) have a lot of N1c.

    Lithuanians & Latvians (Baltic not Finnic) have a lot of N1c as well.

    Non-Finnic Uralics (Ugric, Permic, Volgaic, Saamic, Samoyedic) also have N1c.

    Samoyedic Nenets have a lot of N1c, but even more of N1b.

    Baltic Finnic peoples have no monopoly for N1c.

    Slavic and Germanic groups also have N1c. Most of it probably comes from recent (Medieval) assimilation of other, Non-Slavic and Non-Germanic groups. But some clades could be inherited from Proto-Indo-Europeans.

    Maybe Proto-Indo-Europeans got a bit of N1c1 early on from intermarriages with Non-Indo-Europeans.

    In Karelia there could be contacts between R1a1 and N1c1 already 7000 - 7500 years ago!

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    ElHorsto, when it comes to this Armenian Hypothesis:

    The problem with it is that Indo-European R1b (xP297) and R1a (xM417) were already present to the north of Caucasus 7500 years ago, among hunters:



    And now let's see what is the Armenian Hypothesis about:



    Why should PIE be spoken in the Armenian Highland in 4000 BCE, if genetically Indo-European people lived in Russia already in 5500 BCE ???

    So a more probable hypothesis is that PIE Urheimat was in the forest-steppe zone of Eastern Europe - this one:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans

    http://dienekes.blogspot.fi/2014/08/...o-ugrians.html



    So Eastern European hunters who spoke archaic PIE, switched to pastoralism and settled the steppe.

    Maybe they also mixed with people south of them (but what hg-s did those people have? because R1a and R1b had already been present in Russia before).
    Makes sense, I'm agnostic at the moment. As I said I think both is possible at the same time. I believe R1b was much more widespread in the east during the distant past and old enough in all, Anatolia, Central Asia, Urals and elsewhere. Maybe it was even present in today NE-Europe back then, before it got replaced by R1a and N. It's presence close to Samara is a supportive link between NE-Europe and Central Asia. Kelteminar is very ancient and culturally related to Comb-Ceramic in NE-Europe. The Gedrosia/Indo-Iranic trail could have been cought from Afghanistan already during hunter-gatherer times, much earlier than IE.

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    The Gedrosia/Indo-Iranic trail could have been cought from Afghanistan already during hunter-gatherer times, much earlier than IE.
    But R1b hunter from Samara had no Gedrosian admixture.

    Maybe it was even present in today NE-Europe back then, before it got replaced by R1a and N.
    R1b is still present in these regions, just not so numerous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    But R1b hunter from Samara had no Gedrosian admixture.
    I have yet to work through all the material eventually. Do you mean he really had not Gedrosian admixture, or merely he had no West-Asian admixture? I'm asking because Gedrosia is not only West-Asian, but also an important part of the ANE Mal'ta paleolithic man, who is not West-Asian.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Tomenable getting shit done. Putting in the time and energy for all of us.

    The Samara and Karelia HG samples being so close autosomally, so far upstream, and lacking the Yamnaya gedrosian_Caucasian signal is very close to a deal sealer. Not to mention all of the genetic tidbits that conveniently seem to fit the steppe PIE homeland perfectly.

    And once you start stacking on the archaeology and linguistics the notion of an Asiatic homeland becomes nearly impossible. Forest steppe or maybe even a Baltic homeland are almost necessitated by deduction.

    What about the fundamental similarities between Uralic and PIE, not to mention the likelyhood of a pPIE substratum in the Baltic during Uralic settlement? What about the ancient lexical exchanges between Uralic and PIE?( e.g. domestic pig in Uralic coming from Indo-Iranian. Not PIE, but relevant to the current debate)? What about Lithuanian being ridiculously close to the reconstructed PIE(one would think it was PIE 500 years ago if not for the verb structures)? What about Baltic river names being conserved in PIE? What about the fact that the region near and around modern day Armenia/East Anatolia/North Mesopotamia bears absolutely no resemblance to an Indoeuropean culture during the time frame for PIE? What about the fact that this region was actually full of historically attested non-IEs during the time frame for the homeland? What about the archaeological and historically attested trajectories of the movements of known IE peoples? All of this is completely inconsistent with a near eastern homeland.

    The Yamnaya genetics are new, but people have been looking at the physical remains for years and it's always been known that it was a mixed bag, whereas the preceding Dneiper-Donets and Samarra cultures were homogenous "proto-europoid" (now known to be EHG R1a and R1b). The entire region during this time up through Yamnaya was clearly in the process of domesticating horses. The Yamnaya physical culture however appears to resemble much continuity from Dneiper-Donets/Samara, as does the entire massive region, which includes the advancement of horse breeding. There are zero, zip, zilch horses anywhere in the ancient world until IE's arrive, historically attested and in the dirt.

    What this points to is that PIE culture at its height and fleeting unity was very much a synthesis, this is undeniable as well, but the resulting culture that swept through the bronze age world resembled what had been developing on the steppe thousands of years before. This doesn't mean that ANE_ENF R1b's didn't move up through the Caucuses dropping mad metallurgy, cattle breeding, and farming knowledge on the steppe population, it just means that it's looking like these R1b dudes would have then been enveloped/assimilated by the horse breeders and not the other way around (Although upstream R1b already in Samara, lacking Yamnaya near eastern signals clouds this notion a bit) This is obvious when one considers what IE culture looked like during IE expansions, which is nothing like what is found near or around modern day Armenia/East Anatolia/North Mesopotamia during the time frame for PIE. The language itself necessitates a strong familiarity with agriculture, which isn't consistent with an exclusive steppe/EHG origin, so this synthesis made IE's what they became, although these historical IEs bore no resemblance to who were actually likely to be Hurrians or Hattians in Armenia/East Anatolia/North Mesopotamia during the time frame for PIE.

    Yes more ancient genomes please
    Last edited by holderlin; 16-02-15 at 10:03.

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    And yes. By the logic of Goga PIE's were the first mammals to utter vocal sounds, and they are R1b from SOUTH of the Black and Caspian Seas. ONLY SOUTH.

    R1-> R1a and R1b or even R->R1 may have very well occurred in or around the Caspian/Iranian plateau, which makes sense if you're a Eurasion, because North of there would be a lot of tundra and Ice during this time. But this is in a completely different universe than any discussion on PIE.

    Although it would be very cool to hear the paleolanguages to see how close they came to our current historically attested languages. We might be surprised. I think the Basque language is what would be considered a stone age language actually. The words for tools I think contain the word for stone, or something like that. Youtubing basque language now.....

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    What about the fundamental similarities between Uralic and PIE
    Indeed. The original Indo-European homeland appears to have been somewhere between the Baltic Sea and the Ural Mountains. Almost in the same region as the original Finno-Ugrian homeland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Indeed. The original Indo-European homeland appears to have been somewhere between the Baltic Sea and the Ural Mountains. Almost in the same region as the original Finno-Ugrian homeland.
    Funny coincidence is it not.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ukko View Post
    Funny coincidence is it not.
    The same can be said of NW Caucasian languages. And so where does this put PIE?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    The same can be said of NW Caucasian languages. And so where does this put PIE?
    Baltic Finnish (Finland, Estonia, Karelia) horse breeds are related by paternal lines to the steppe horses, all the way to Mongolia, the cattle breeds are paternally related to the Caucasian originated cattle in the Volga.

    Both the horses and cattle have relatives in Yakutia..

    Like the men.


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    Unfortified settlements, fortresses and burials have been found. In the settlements and fortresses the remains of surface timber dwellings (10×5 m - 12×4 м) were found. In the Konetsgor settlement long houses divided into sections with hearths located on their longitudinal axis were found. The population was engaged in cattle breeding and agriculture, as well as hunting and fishing. Well developed were both iron and nonferrous metallurgy, bronze casting and forging, weaving, spinning, bone and leatherwork, and pottery. Typical ceramics are round-bottomed with indented and rope decorations. In the settlements are many bone utensils, mainly for hunting and fishing, like arrowheads of various forms, harpoons, mattock tips.The burial sites are without mounds and sometimes very extensive. The older Akhmylov cemetery contained more than 1100 burials. The earliest of them had stone stelae with depictions of weaponry beside the burial. In the 6th or 5th century BC they were replaced with stelae above the tombs, sometimes with male images with or without weapons. Inhumations in pit tombs, covered with timber chambers predominate. Single burials prevailed, but paired and collective, dismembered (reburials) and partial (skulls) burials are also known. Burials were in some cases accompanied by meat offerings (horsemeat for men and beef for women), and various objects, including clay vessels. In the male burials are usually found weapons and work tools including spears, kelts, swords, daggers, arrowheads, wedges, and ornaments. In the female tombs are ornaments including bracelets, neckrings, sets of pendants and tubules sown on a leather headband). In the early period bronze and iron tools and weapons co-existed with flint arrowheads and scrapers.
    The Ananyino culture was greatly influenced by the Colchian-Koban cultures of the Caucasus region, the Scythians, and the eastern nomadic cultures of the Eurasian steppes. Especially significant were the links of the Ananyino people with the Caucasus cultures, represented by numerous imported products. It was determined that technological methods for iron processing ascend to the Caucasian traditions
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ananyino_culture

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    Finns and other Uralic also have high percentage of Caucasian MtDNA.

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    Is most of R1b among the Basques descended from that Pre-Indo-European Neolithic Spanish R1b ???

    Check:

    I0410 (Spain_EN)
    We determined that this individual belonged to haplogroup R1b1 (M415:9170545C→A), with upstream haplogroup R1b (M343:2887824C→A) also supported. However, the individual was ancestral for R1b1a1 (M478:23444054T→C), R1b1a2 (PF6399:2668456C→T, L265:8149348A→G, L150.1:10008791C→T and M269:22739367T→C), R1b1c2 (V35:6812012T→A), and R1b1c3 (V69:18099054C→T), and could thus be designated R1b1*(xR1b1a1, R1b1a2, R1b1c2, R1b1c3). The occurrence of a basal form of haplogroup R1b1 in both western Europe and R1b1a in eastern Europe (I0124 hunter-gatherer from Samara) complicates the interpretation of the origin of this lineage. We are not aware of any other western European R1b lineages reported in the literature before the Bell Beaker period (ref. 2 and this study). It is possible that either (i) the Early Neolithic Spanish individual was a descendant of a Neolithic migrant from the Near East that introduced this lineage to western Europe, or (ii) there was a very sparse distribution of haplogroup R1b in [Western] European hunter-gatherers and early farmers, so the lack of its detection in the published literature may reflect its occurrence at very low frequency. The occurrence of a basal form of R1b1 in western Europe logically raises the possibility that presentday western Europeans (who belong predominantly to haplogroup R1b1a2-M269) may trace their origin to early Neolithic farmers of western Europe. However, we think this is not likely given the existence of R1b1a2-M269 not only in western Europe but also in the Near East; such a distribution implies migrations of M269 males from western Europe to the Near East which do not seem archaeologically plausible. We prefer the explanation that R-M269 originated in the eastern end of its distribution, given its first appearance in the Yamnaya males (below) and in the Near East17.
    And also:

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/

    Interestingly, all seven of the Yamnaya males sampled by Haak et al., mostly from the Samara Valley on the Ural steppe, belong to R1b-M269, the most common subclade of R1b today. However, five belong to the West Asian-specific R1b-Z1203, but none to the West European-specific R1b-M412. Also, all nine Yamnaya samples show Near Eastern admixture, described in the paper as Armenian-like.
    Yamnaya subclades:

    http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

    R1b1a2a2*
    R1b1a
    R1b1a2a2
    R1b1a2a*
    R1b1a2a2
    R1b1a2a2*
    R1b1a2a2*

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