Massive migration from the steppe - extended discussion

ANE is a grouping of genes present at some times and in some places, and surely shared long ago by a lot of tribes, between Siberia and South central Asia and Eastern Europe. Concerning the I-Ean concretion, surely recent enough, we cannot rely only on this element; and are all these populations rich today in ANE sharing the same elements of primitive ANE? I don't know. Maybe I'm not logical?
 
ANE is a grouping of genes present at some times and in some places, and surely shared long ago by a lot of tribes, between Siberia and South central Asia and Eastern Europe. Concerning the I-Ean concretion, surely recent enough, we cannot rely only on this element; and are all these populations rich today in ANE sharing the same elements of primitive ANE? I don't know. Maybe I'm not logical?

Davidski argues that the "ANE" like ancestry in CHG is not just shared ancestry but real ANE admixture. We know that WHG is connected to Haplogroup I predominantly.

So if the Samara EHG did not get their R* Haplogroups from their WHG side than they must have got it from their ANE ancestry, supportive for this hypothesis is the fact that we have found R* Haplogroup in a ANE individual from Siberia 20000 years ago.

The fact that there is more ANE in some South_Central Asian populations than Indo European ancestry itself only proves that pre Indo Europeans there must have been a very ANE like paleolithic popultion in South_Central Asia and likely on the Iranian Plateau prior to Indo Europeans. That brings me to the conclusion that there should also be R Haplogroups which predate the Indo European expansion.

Another thing that it proves to me is, that if the ANE in CHG is real admixture rather than shared ancestry, than we will most likely find R Haplogroups in some CHG samples. How else could the ANE have ended up in the CHG population? So if they claim the CHG population did not have any R Haplogroups among them than those guys are simply contradicting themselves. Either the ANE in CHG is real, than it must have come via ANE migration. Or are we going to argue that wild Herders from the Caucasus kidnapped ANE wives now? This whole Wive Kidnapping exchanging nonsense is getting ridiculous.

But if they claim the CHG were entirely J Haplogroup and did not have any Rs among them, than ANE in CHG can't be real admixture but is only shared ancestry, because Haplogroup J is the brotherclade of I (UHG-WHG) and only afterwards with K.

I tend to the first option. Simply out of the logic that populations very high in CHG have very basal and diverse kinds clades of R Haplogroups.

As I said in the past in my very first posts and it seems my theory has been confirmed with all this.


In the Near East we are dealing with two or maybe even three ancient groups. One is EF (Anatolian_Levant farmers). The other are Caucaus-Iranian Plateau herders, who were a mix of something similar to EF and an ANE like group and became "CHG".

EF on itself is a group that appeared after two more ancient populations (Basal Eurasian and Proto UHG_WHG) merged.

A third group might be a Arabian type farmer population around NorthEast Africa or Arabia that appeared during late Neolithic when EF groups absorbed some [10-15%) Sub Saharan DNA.
 
Last edited:
--> I think horse domestication and horse riding was revolution around 3,500bc, like a train in industrial revolution and modern internet to concur a distance between humans

The domestication of the horse revolutionized warfare, trade, and the exchange of people and ideas. This at least 5,500-y-long process, which ultimately transformed wild horses into the hundreds of breeds living today, is difficult to reconstruct from archeological data and modern genetics alone.
The domestication of the horse ∼5.5 kya and the emergence of mounted riding, chariotry, and cavalry dramatically transformed human civilization. However, the genetics underlying horse domestication are difficult to reconstruct, given the near extinction of wild horses. We therefore sequenced two ancient horse genomes from Taymyr, Russia (at 7.4- and 24.3-fold coverage), both predating the earliest archeological evidence of domestication.
http://www.pnas.org/content/111/52/E5661.abstract

---> Now, when to ride on horse?

Evidence for Riding in the Fourth Millennium BC
The Botai culture in northern Kazakhstan is named after the site of Botai, where 99% of 300,000 recovered animal bones were from horses. Botai was a culture of foragers that rode horses to hunt horses, a peculiar adaptation found only here and only between about 3600-3000 BCE

http://users.hartwick.edu/anthonyd/harnessing horsepower.html
 
Last edited:
@Alan
Logic post, at first sight; what I lack to be sure? more Y haplo's of CHG people, and admixture runs of them, some with 'gedrosia' some with ANE. Admixtures with the same internal logic and same period, not the curious proxis provided by some forumers or bloggers. Maybe have you data I lack?
 
wang chuan chao

Wang Chuan Chao: 2018

Recent ancient DNA studies have enabled the resolution of several long-standing questions regarding cultural and population transformations in prehistory. One of these is the Mesolithic-Neolithic transition in Europe, which saw a change from a hunter-gatherer lifestyle to a sedentary, food-producing subsistence strategy. Genome-wide data from pre-farming and farming communities have identified distinct ancestral populations that largely reflect subsistence patterns in addition to geography25. One important feature is a cline of European hunter-gatherer (HG) ancestry that runs roughly from West to East (hence WHG and EHG; blue component in Fig. 2A, 2C), which differs greatly from the ancestry of Early European farmers that in turn is closely related to that of northwest Anatolian farmers, and more remotely also to pre-farming individuals from the Levant. The Near East and Anatolia have long been seen as the regions from which European farming and animal husbandry emerged. Surprisingly, these regions harboured three divergent populations, with Anatolian and Levantine ancestry in the western part and a group with a distinct ancestry in the eastern part first described in Upper Pleistocene individuals from Georgia (Caucasus hunter-gatherers; CHG) and then in Mesolithic and Neolithic individuals from Iran. The following two millennia, spanning from the Neolithic to Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age periods in each region, witnessed migration and admixture between these ancestral groups, leading to a pattern of genetic homogenization and reduced genetic distances between these Neolithic source populations. In parallel, Eneolithic individuals from the Samara region (5200-4000 BCE) also exhibit population mixture, specifically EHG- and CHG/Iranian ancestry, a combination that forms the so-called ‘steppe-ancestry’. This ancestry eventually spread further west, where it contributed substantially to the ancestry of present- day Europeans, and east to the Altai region as well as to South Asia.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/05/16/322347.full.pdf[SUB][/SUB]
 
Last edited:
wang chuan chao--Yamnaya

still quoting from Wang Chuan chao's 2018 article: the Yamnaya :
Using qpAdm with Globular Amphora as a proximate surrogate population (assuming that a related group was the source of the Anatolian farmer-related ancestry), we estimated the contribution of Anatolian farmer-related ancestry into Yamnaya and other steppe groups. We find that Yamnaya individuals from the Volga region (Yamnaya Samara) have 13.2±2.7% and Yamnaya individuals in Hungary 17.1±4.1% Anatolian farmer-related ancestry (Fig.4; Supplementary Table 18)– statistically indistinguishable proportions. Replacing Globular Amphora by Iberia Chalcolithic, for instance, does not alter the results profoundly (Supplementary Table 19). This [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]suggests that the source population was a mixture of Anatolian farmer-related ancestry and a minimum of 20% WHG ancestry, a profile that is shared by many Middle/Late Neolithic and Chalcolithic individuals from Europe of the 3rd millennium BCE analyzed thus far. [/FONT]
 
Last edited:
From Wang chuanchao 2018 article :

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]We were surprised to discover that Steppe Maykop individuals from the eastern desert steppes harboured a distinctive ancestry component that relates them to Upper Palaeolithic Siberian individuals (AG3, MA1) and Native Americans. This is exemplified by the more commonly East Asian features such as the derived EDAR allele, which has also been observed in EHG from Karelia and Scandinavian hunter- gatherers (SHG). The additional affinity to East Asians suggests that this ancestry 640 does not derive directly from Ancestral North Eurasians but from a yet-to-be- identified ancestral population in north-central Eurasia with a wide distribution between the Caucasus, the Ural Mountains and the Pacific coast, of which we have discovered the so far southwestern-most and also youngest (e.g. the Lola culture individual) genetic representative[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif].
[/FONT][/FONT]
 
We're stuck with the most pathetic researchers, what a shame. How many more years will we have to wait for something they can test and publish in the space of months?
 
We're stuck with the most pathetic researchers, what a shame. How many more years will we have to wait for something they can test and publish in the space of months?
Ancient genomes belong to all humankind. They should be made public for all in the interest of human origins as soon as the results are verified. People can write, peer review, politics, in their own spheres of influence/interest.
 
ANE auDNA on the Iranian Plateau and in North Caucasus is much older than 3500BC. ANE auDNA existed on the Iranian Plateau and in the North Caucasus thousands of years BEFORE the Yamnaya culture ever existed. It predates late PIE in the Yamnaya and has nothing to do with PIE...

However there're connections between the Leyla-Tepe culture, the Mesoptamian cultures, Makop culture and the Yamnaya Horzion culture.
[FONT=&quot]
Interestingly, ancient DNA evidence suggests that haplogroup R1b – the current dominant lineage in western Europe – did not reach high frequencies until after the European Neolithic period as given in Lacan [/FONT]
et al[FONT=&quot]26, 27[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and Pinhasi [/FONT]et al.[FONT=&quot]28[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In sum, our results support the hypothesis of a Southeast Asian/Oceanian center for the diversification of Oceanian K-haplogroup lineages and underscore the potential importance of Southeast Asia as a source of genetic variation for Eurasian populations. We propose that the patterns of Y-chromosome variation in the K haplogroup reflect a process of population fragmentation, likely associated with the early expansion of modern human populations into island Southeast Asia, and possibly also with rapidly changing sea levels,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]29[/FONT][FONT=&quot] followed by a subsequent dispersal from the same area. While limited in their inferential power, our results warrant the exploration of a demographic model that includes a population expansion from island Southeast Asia into mainland Asia.[/FONT]
 
[FONT=&quot]Because the phylogenetic structure of haplogroup R is characterized by several consecutive basal splitting events leading to tip branches that are currently observed only outside Africa, it is extremely unlikely that haplogroup R diversified in Africa. Similarly, the phylogenetic structure of haplogroup K-M526 shows consecutive branching events (M526, P331 and P295), which appear to have rapidly diversified. With the exception of P-P27, all of the descendant lineages are located today in Southeast Asia and Oceania: K-M526*, K-P402, K-P261 and NO are the lineages most closely related to haplogroup K-P331, K-P397 is the sister lineage of P-P295 and the P-P295* lineages are the closest relatives of haplogroup P-P27 ([/FONT]Figure 1b[FONT=&quot]). This pattern leads us to hypothesize a southeastern Asian origin for P-P295 and a later expansion of the ancestor of subhaplogroups R and Q into mainland Asia.
[/FONT]
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4326703/[h=1]Improved phylogenetic resolution and rapid diversification of Y-chromosome haplogroup K-M526 in Southeast Asia[/h][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
 
[h=1]Between Lake Baikal and the Baltic Sea:
genomic history of the gateway to Europe.[/h]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29297395

[h=3]Abstract[/h][h=4]BACKGROUND:[/h]The history of human populations occupying the plains and mountain ridges separating Europe from Asia has been eventful, as these natural obstacles were crossed westward by multiple waves of Turkic and Uralic-speaking migrants as well as eastward by Europeans. Unfortunately, the material records of history of this region are not dense enough to reconstruct details of population history. These considerations stimulate growing interest to obtain a genetic picture of the demographic history of migrations and admixture in Northern Eurasia.
[h=4]RESULTS:[/h]We genotyped and analyzed 1076 individuals from 30 populations with geographical coverage spanning from Baltic Sea to Baikal Lake. Our dense sampling allowed us to describe in detail the population structure, provide insight into genomic history of numerous European and Asian populations, and significantly increase quantity of genetic data available for modern populations in region of North Eurasia. Our study doubles the amount of genome-wide profiles available for this region. We detected unusually high amount of shared identical-by-descent (IBD) genomic segments between several Siberian populations, such as Khanty and Ket, providing evidence of genetic relatedness across vast geographic distances and between speakers of different language families. Additionally, we observed excessive IBD sharing between Khanty and Bashkir, a group of Turkic speakers from Southern Urals region. While adding some weight to the "Finno-Ugric" origin of Bashkir, our studies highlighted that the Bashkir genepool lacks the main "core", being a multi-layered amalgamation of Turkic, Ugric, Finnish and Indo-European contributions, which points at intricacy of genetic interface between Turkic and Uralic populations. Comparison of the genetic structure of Siberian ethnicities and the geography of the region they inhabit point at existence of the "Great Siberian Vortex" directing genetic exchanges in populations across the Siberian part of Asia. Slavic speakers of Eastern Europe are, in general, very similar in their genetic composition. Ukrainians, Belarusians and Russians have almost identical proportions of Caucasus and Northern European components and have virtually no Asian influence. We capitalized on wide geographic span of our sampling to address intriguing question about the place of origin of Russian Starovers, an enigmatic Eastern Orthodox Old Believers religious group relocated to Siberia in seventeenth century. A comparative reAdmix analysis, complemented by IBD sharing, placed their roots in the region of the Northern European Plain, occupied by North Russians and Finno-Ugric Komi and Karelian people. Russians from Novosibirsk and Russian Starover exhibit ancestral proportions close to that of European Eastern Slavs, however, they also include between 5 to 10 % of Central Siberian ancestry, not present at this level in their European counterparts.
[h=4]CONCLUSIONS:[/h]Our project has patched the hole in the genetic map of Eurasia: we demonstrated complexity of genetic structure of Northern Eurasians, existence of East-West and North-South genetic gradients, and assessed different inputs of ancient populations into modern populations.
 
According to Underhill (2014) hg. R1a is from Kurdistan!


" Origin of hg R1a

To infer the geographic origin of hg R1a-M420, we identified populations harboring at least one of the two most basal haplogroups and possessing high haplogroup diversity. Among the 120 populations with sample sizes of at least 50 individuals and with at least 10% occurrence of R1a, just 6 met these criteria, and 5 of these 6 populations reside in modern-day Iran. Haplogroup diversities among the six populations ranged from 0.78 to 0.86 (Supplementary Table 4). Of the 24 R1a-M420*(xSRY10831.2) chromosomes in ourdata set, 18 were sampled in Iran and 3 were from eastern Turkey. Similarly, five of the six observed R1a1-SRY10831.2* (xM417
/Page7) chromosomes were also from Iran, with the sixth occurring in a Kabardin individual from the Caucasus. Owing to the prevalenceof basal lineages and the high levels of haplogroup diversities in the region, we find a compelling case for the Middle East, possibly near present-day Iran, as the geographic origin of hg R1a. "

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/full/ejhg201450a.html

The book of :山海经(tentatively translated into Classics of Mountains and Seas " has documented the settlements all the way from China ,from the south route ,into Iran , and Anatolia . It is the 4th line of mountains that make up all the landmarks over this route . It is an ancient document, the oldest geographic and population record in ancient times.
 
The Mal'ta–Buret' culture is an archaeological culture of the Upper Paleolithic (c. 24,000 to 15,000 BP) on the upper Angara River in the area west of Lake Baikal in the Irkutsk Oblast, Siberia, Russian Federation. The type sites are named for the villages of Mal'ta (Мальта́), Usolsky District and Buret' (Буреть), Bokhansky District (both in Irkutsk Oblast).A boy whose remains were found near Mal'ta is usually known by the abbreviation MA-1 (or MA1). Discovered in the 1920s, the remains have been dated to 24,000 BP. According to research published since 2013, MA-1 belonged to a population related to the genetic ancestors of Siberians, American Indians, and Bronze Age Yamnaya people of the Eurasian steppe.[1][2] In particular, modern-day Native Americans, Kets, Mansi, Nganasans and Yukaghirs have been found to harbour a lot of ancestry related to MA-1.[3]

The location :
52° 54′ 0″ N, 103° 30′ 0″ E, is well into East Siberia, and somehow , in a recent paper (
Fu Qiaomei as first author, ), this sample is listed as European Ice age sample . I wonder why so far east a sample would be considered to represent European ancestry ? How the location of the sample is to be characterized as Europe , but no Eurasia , at least , not to say East Asia ? The demarcation of Europe and Asia on the northern part of Eurasia is supposedly the Ural mountain , which stands at E 60. The Malta 1 is discovered all the way to the E 103, far well into the East Siberia and into East Asia . Is the location of the DNA sample follows such a dividing line ? '
 
Haploid lineages [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]https://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2013/12/the-malta-adna-findings.html[/FONT]


The Mal'ta boy, MA-1, carried distinct yDNA R* and mtDNA U* lineages. While both are clearly related to those dominant in Europe and parts of Asia (West, South) nowadays, they are also distinct from any specific dominant lineage today.


R* (yDNA) is neither R1 nor R2 but another distinct branch of R. This kind of R(xR1, R2) is most rare today and found mostly in and around NW South Asia. Following Wikipedia, this "other R" is found in:
  • 10.3% among the Burusho
  • 6.8% among the Kalash
  • 3.4% among the Gujarati
However I must say that I recall from old discussions that some R(xR1) is also found among Mongols and some North American Natives. I would have to find the relevant studies though (maybe in an update).


U* (mtDNA) is also quite rare today but has been found in Swabian Magdalenian hunter-gatherers, as well as in some Neolithic samples, although it may well be a totally different kind of U* (I could not discern the specific markers in the paper nor the supplementary materials and it must be reminded that the asterisk only means "others").





 
Malta, where asia starts

It seems that there exist different ideas of where the Continent of Asia starts, and where the continent of Europe ends. In the northern part of the Eurasia , the Ural mountain range has for quite sometime formed the dividing line between Asia and Europe . Therefore , it is very surprising that Fu Qiaomei would list the samples from Ust-Ishim Man , AG sample and Malta boy as European . The positions of them are : Ust -Ishim E.71, Malta E.193, AG both E 92. Could we get agreement where to draw the line that separate Asia and Europe , so the ancient history is not clouded by the shifting line in the sands?
 
Last edited:
or , I am missing something, that is , Fu Qiaomei 's desicion of listing samples from Ust-Ishim, Malta and Afontova Gora is based on different standard , but not according to its geographical location .
 
Malta, where asia starts

What is the genetic relationship between the Hg R* and Hg R1, and the rest of the down stream lines ? I know they are distinctive from each other . What does exactly 'distinct ly different ' mean ? Is Maltar1 gives rise to all the descendants of R ?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4326703/
Although K-M526 was previously characterized by a single polytomy of eight major branches, the phylogenetic structure of haplogroup K-M526 is now resolved into four major subclades (K2a–d). The largest of these subclades, K2b, is divided into two clusters: K2b1 and K2b2. K2b1 combines the previously known haplogroups M, S, K-P60 and K-P79, whereas K2b2 comprises haplogroups P and its subhaplogroups Q and R. Interestingly, the monophyletic group formed by haplogroups R and Q, which make up the majority of paternal lineages in Europe, Central Asia and the Americas, represents the only subclade with K2b that is not geographically restricted to Southeast Asia and Oceania. Estimates of the interval times for the branching events between M9 and P295 point to an initial rapid diversification process of K-M526 that likely occurred in Southeast Asia, with subsequent westward expansions of the ancestors of haplogroups R and Q.
 
Last edited:
fu qiaomei's sample

Although K-M526 was previously characterized by a single polytomy of eight major branches, the phylogenetic structure of haplogroup K-M526 is now resolved into four major subclades (K2a–d). The largest of these subclades, K2b, is divided into two clusters: K2b1 and K2b2. K2b1 combines the previously known haplogroups M, S, K-P60 and K-P79, whereas K2b2 comprises haplogroups P and its subhaplogroups Q and R. Interestingly, the monophyletic group formed by haplogroups R and Q, which make up the majority of paternal lineages in Europe, Central Asia and the Americas, represents the only subclade with K2b that is not geographically restricted to Southeast Asia and Oceania. Estimates of the interval times for the branching events between M9 and P295 point to an initial rapid diversification process of K-M526 that likely occurred in Southeast Asia, with subsequent westward expansions of the ancestors of haplogroups R and Q.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4326703/

 
Last edited:
Massive migration from the steppe extended discussion

I really want to know the origin of these patterns, it looks kinda celtic, but i would love if the devs told where they got this idea from. I want a tattoo on my arm so i'm looking for some patterns on the internet and this one really caught my eye.
 

This thread has been viewed 126699 times.

Back
Top