Massive migration from the steppe - extended discussion

[Tomenable]

99% of modern R1a in the world originated and expanded from Eastern Europe, not from Iran (as Underhill suggested in 2014).

 

[Yetos]

There was never Thrachians civilization outside the Balkan( and to a lesser extend Anatolia) I hope they will test for male lines remains fro Romania, Bulgaria, Macedonia and North Greece, this is what was the Thrachian core

queen thamar
thracian queen,
east caucas,

 

[Diurpaneus]

civilization

Indeed,this is the true engine of the ethnicity,making the populations mentioned above[i'll add the Albanians, not(only)because i'm Romanian] ,to some degree,of "Thracian" origin.
As for the genes, it can be quite tricky for various reasons.And,as far as I know ,only the elites were inhumated.

some anthropology:

http://www.unz.org/Pub/MankindQuarterly-1980jan-00321

from an early Getae necropolis of Dobruja:

http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/a...lei-hallstattiene-de-la-celic-dere-jud-tulcea

 

[Sile]

All this region was once Indo_Iranian speaking. Either Turks themselves are "altaified" Irano_Aryans OR they are Altains who mixed and replaced them.

depends on how much influence the khanate of Sibir ( a part tatar people ) had over these Altai and the Nogai these "western kazaks/uzbeks"

 

[holderlin]

Yes, great results. Never expected such a confirmation of my theories. No R1a in Yamnaya, so there's still no evidence that R1a-Z93 in Iranic folks is from Yamnaya or the Pontic-Caspian Steppes in general. I knew it, but didn't expect that they would find Anatolian (Armenian, West Iranic) R1b in Yamnaya. R1b in Yamnaya is Anatolia, which again is a great indication that Vyacheslav Vsevolodovich Ivanov is right about his Armenian hypothesis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_hypothesis . The latest results are victory for Vyacheslav Vsevolodovich Ivanov & Tamaz V. Gamkrelidze! It's true that Indo-Europeans in Europe came from Yamnaya. But folks from NorthWest Asia (from Maykop) Indo-Europized the Yamnaya folks in the Steppes. I was telling this all the time. Indo-Europeanization occured in stages. Best news for me is that R1a-Z93 has nothing to do with the Yamnaya. And this fact is making my thoughts even stronger!

Lol. Let the games begin.

 

[Goga]

99% of modern R1a in the world originated and expanded from Eastern Europe, not from Iran (as Underhill suggested in 2014).

I'm R1a* and the haplogroup to which I do belong is older than all R1a in Europe combined. My R1a is native to Zagros, Western Parts of the Iranian Plateau. Even according to 23andMe, DNA company where I got my DNA results, is saying that R1a is from the Iranian Plateau..

Underhill (2014) has suggested that R1a is from the Iranian Plateau, just read his paper one more time! Please don't spread lies...

 

[Goga]

" Based on spatial distributions and diversity patterns within the R1a-M420 clade, particularly rare basal branches detected primarily within Iran and eastern Turkey, we conclude that the initial episodes of haplogroup R1a diversification likely occurred in the vicinity of present-day Iran. " - http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/full/ejhg201450a.html

 

[Goga]

According to Underhill (2014) hg. R1a is from Kurdistan!


" Origin of hg R1a

To infer the geographic origin of hg R1a-M420, we identified populations harboring at least one of the two most basal haplogroups and possessing high haplogroup diversity. Among the 120 populations with sample sizes of at least 50 individuals and with at least 10% occurrence of R1a, just 6 met these criteria, and 5 of these 6 populations reside in modern-day Iran. Haplogroup diversities among the six populations ranged from 0.78 to 0.86 (Supplementary Table 4). Of the 24 R1a-M420*(xSRY10831.2) chromosomes in ourdata set, 18 were sampled in Iran and 3 were from eastern Turkey. Similarly, five of the six observed R1a1-SRY10831.2* (xM417/Page7) chromosomes were also from Iran, with the sixth occurring in a Kabardin individual from the Caucasus. Owing to the prevalenceof basal lineages and the high levels of haplogroup diversities in the region, we find a compelling case for the Middle East, possibly near present-day Iran, as the geographic origin of hg R1a. "

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/full/ejhg201450a.html

 

[Goga]

It's possible this is how R1a* entered the Pontic Caspian Steppes FIRST and LATER invaded Eastern and Central Europe from there :

Ivanov is a genius!


Armenian Model by Vyacheslav Vsevolodovich Ivanov & Tamaz V. Gamkrelidze

 

[Aberdeen]

I'm R1a* and the haplogroup to which I do belong is older than all R1a in Europe combined. My R1a is native to Zagros, Western Parts of the Iranian Plateau. Even according to 23andMe, DNA company where I got my DNA results, is saying that R1a is from the Iranian Plateau..

Underhill (2014) has suggested that R1a is from the Iranian Plateau, just read his paper one more time! Please don't spread lies...

Even if it was true that R1a originated on the Iranian Plateau several thousand years before Yamnaya, that doesn't tell us anything about where Bronze Age Indo-Europeans lived before their expansion into various parts of Europe and Asia. And some people think the original R1a differentiated into subclades in Europe and can provide facts to support that idea. The chap at the Eurogenes Blog pointed out that there was a Mesolithic Karelian R1a (x198) a Late Neolithic Corded Ware pastoralist from Germany who was R1a (M198, M417 and Z282) and a Late Bronze Age Urnfield from Germany who was R1a1 (M198, M417, Z282 and Z280). So he sees R1a as having developed into the European subclades right in Europe. And while I don't necessarily agree with that interpretation, he does have facts on his side.

 

[Tomenable]

you missed oetzi on your map...........exactly same time frame as the G2a in germany ( on your map )

He also missed the four Corded Ware samples from Poland (Neolithic looking) and Germany (R1a) and the three Bell Beaker R1b samples from Germany. Including those samples might have complicated things - the two oldest and most easterly CW samples weren't R1a.

I considered adding Oetzi as well. But Corded Ware is too late for that map.

Anyway - you can find this data here (they also already added these new samples from Haak 2015):

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnaintro.shtml

They have aDNA divided into chronological categories, for example:

Mesolithic aDNA
European Neolithic aDNA
Copper-Bronze Age aDNA

Oetzi and Corded Ware are included in "Copper-Bronze Age aDNA".

I added to my map only those from Neolithic and Mesolithic aDNA.

Should I add also Oetzi to the map ???

 

[Tomenable]

I'm R1a* and the haplogroup to which I do belong is older than all R1a in Europe combined.

That's not the point I was making. Have you read Underhill et. al. 2014 ???

He wrote that before M417, R1a was a minor hg with a small number of individuals at any given time.

Since the emergence of M417 a huge demographic boom took place and it rapidly expanded in numbers.

And everything now indicates that M417 emerged in Eastern Europe, not in Iran or elsewhere.

The oldest R1a is of course much older than M417 - R1a emerged from R1 about 21 - 25 thousand years ago.

But for a long time R1a was few in numbers. Only about 5000-5800 years ago (4800-6800), it started to rapidly increase in numbers.

99% of modern R1a is descended from M417, which started that demographic explosion. Now we have a direct paternal ancestor of M417, who lived in Karelia (and not in Iran or elsewhere) between 7500 and 7000 years ago. It is probable that hunters from Karelia moved southward to the European steppe, and then from the European steppe to Central Europe (M417 from Corded Ware, who lived 4500 - 4350 years ago) and to Asia.

But I really doubt that hunters from Karelia moved to Iran, and then from Iran back to the steppe and Central Europe.

the haplogroup to which I do belong is older than all R1a in Europe combined.

But 99% of all R1a in the world descends from M417, which is much younger than your clade.

You and other Non-M417 people with R1a comprise only 1/100 of entire R1a in the world. While M417 is 99/100.

And now everything indicates that M417 emerged in Eastern Europe and then expanded from there.

That Karelian hunter (or another guy with a clade exactly like his clade) seems to be the direct paternal ancestor of M417.

Then we have this Corded Ware individual with M417, who lived 2500 - 3150 years after that Karelian hunter.

 

[Goga]

Even if it was true that R1a originated on the Iranian Plateau several thousand years before Yamnaya, that doesn't tell us anything about where Bronze Age Indo-Europeans lived before their expansion into various parts of Europe and Asia. And some people think the original R1a differentiated into subclades in Europe and can provide facts to support that idea. The chap at the Eurogenes Blog pointed out that there was a Mesolithic Karelian R1a (x198) a Late Neolithic Corded Ware pastoralist from Germany who was R1a (M198, M417 and Z282) and a Late Bronze Age Urnfield from Germany who was R1a1 (M198, M417, Z282 and Z280). So he sees R1a as having developed into the European subclades right in Europe. And while I don't necessarily agree with that interpretation, he does have facts on his side.

Those chappies from Eurogenes are Polish amateurs and very ethnocentric. I stopped reading his nonsense blog a very long time ago. Even watching porn is better for your brains than reading their retard nonsense. No, the user 'Tomenable' is very wrong! Compared to the actual ancient age of R1a*, the R1a in Europe is very young and came to Europe in very recent times. Only the modern EUROPEAN R1a subclades differentiated inside Europe, not the oldest one. And it's very logical that R1a differentiate in Europe. May I tell you a secret, all haplogroup differentiate sooner or later. There are also many NATIVE R1a subclades that differentiated in West Asia and Central Asia. R1a-Z93 has NOTHING to do with Europe. And the modern Europeans have NOTHING to do with R1a-Z93! FACT 1! Also European R1a has NOTHING to do with West and Central Asia. R1a is evolving further, even today. But the oldest R1a is from the Iranian Plateau and it entered the Pontic Caspian Steppes and from there into Europe originally from Iran. FACT 2!

 

[Tomenable]

So he sees R1a as having developed into the European subclades right in Europe. And while I don't necessarily agree with that interpretation, he does have facts on his side.

Exactly, he does have facts on his side. That Mesolithic Karelian R1a was M198 (M417) - which means that he was the ancestor of M417.

M417 has an estimated TMRCA as 4800 - 6800 years ago, most probably 5000 - 5800 years ago. That M198 (M417) Karelian lived 7000 - 7500 years ago.

Late Neolithic Corded Ware pastoralist from Germany who was R1a (M198, M417 and Z282)

Nope. This Corded Ware pastoralist was not Z282. He was CTS4385 and probably L664.

 

[Goga]

That's not the point I was making. Have you read Underhill et. al. 2014 ???

He wrote that before M417, R1a was a minor hg with a small number of individuals at any given time.

Since the emergence of M417 a huge demographic boom took place and it rapidly expanded in numbers.

And everything now indicates that M417 emerged in Eastern Europe, not in Iran or elsewhere.

The oldest R1a is of course much older than M417 - R1a emerged from R1 about 21 - 25 thousand years ago.

But for a long time R1a was few in numbers. Only about 5000-5800 years ago (4800-6800), it started to rapidly increase in numbers.

I read that article more than 5 times! According to them the real and original R1a is from West Asia. Asian R1a-Z93 has NOTHING to do with Europe. And the European R1a-Z283 has nothing to do with Asia. They evolved separately and from 2 different (ethnic) groups. And one of the points is that they found ancestral R1a (S224) to both R1a-Z93 AND R1a-Z283 ALSO in West Asia.

 

[Tomenable]

R1a-Z93 has NOTHING to do with Europe.

WOW! So much anger! Maybe you should take a look at the phylogenetic tree of R1a. Z93 is descended from M417.

And we now have M417 in a Late Neolithic / Copper Age Central European and M198 (M417) in a Mesolithic North-Eastern European.

So everything indicates that ancestors of Z93 - who were M417 - lived somewhere in Europe before moving to Asia.

 

[Alan]

Corded Ware individual I0104, age 2473 - 2348 BCE, is M417 - which is ancestral to 99% of modern R1a (including Z93 and CTS 4385).

He lived 4350 - 4500 years ago. And according to Underhill 2014, the R-M417 has an estimated TMRCA of 4800 - 6800 years ago, average of 5000.

While according to Haak 2015 it has an estiated TMRCA of 5800 years ago.

Anyway, our M417 from Corded Ware lived between 300 and 2500 years after the common ancestor of 99% of modern R1a.

Moreover, that hunter-gatherer from Karelia from 7000 - 7500 years ago (5000 - 5500 BCE) is ancestral to M417 !!!

So it seems very probable that common ancestor for 99% of all R1a lived in Europe somewhere between Finland-Russia and East Germany.

Let's also check Y-DNA from steppe / nomadic cultures, discovered to date:

Yamnaya - R1b
=============
Corded Ware - R1a
Tocharians - R1a (and Tocharian R1a is M417, but not Z93)
Andronovo - R1a
Scythians - R1a

Andronovo was not yet tested downstream R1a m417

upstream to m420 and ancestral m417 exist in South_Central Asia and even West Asia but no m420 in Europe. Very unlikely that all R1a originated in Europe so I don't know how someone can come to this conclusion.

 

[Tomenable]

According to them the real and original R1a is from West Asia.

The "real and original R1a" is today only 1% of entire global R1a.

99% of global R1a is M417 (Z93 is also downstream from M417) and we now have the oldest M417 in Europe.

So you will need a lot of gymnastics to prove that M417 came to Europe from Asia.

 

[Goga]

WOW! So much anger! Maybe you should take a look at the phylogenetic tree of R1a. Z93 is descended from M417.

And we now have M417 in a Late Neolithic / Copper Age Central European and M198 (M417) in a Mesolithic North-Eastern European.

So everything indicates that ancestors of Z93 - who were M417 - lived somewhere in Europe before moving to Asia.

Not angry, but tired reading the same nonsense time after time! No, Z93 is from R1a-S224, and they also found R1a-S224 in West Asia too...

 

[Tomenable]

ancestral m417 exist in South_Central Asia and even West Asia

But we now have aDNA from Europe which is M417 and ancestral to M417. Karelian hunter and Corded Ware pastoralist.

Find me some aDNA with M417 from Asia.