Mezolithic-Neolithic vs. Chalcolithic-Early Iron Age Y-DNA landscape of Europe

[Fluffy]

Its good to get informed about the subject....this might help you

Interestingresults from the lineage analysis can be summarized as follows: (i) R-L23*, the eastern branch of haplogroup R-M269, is present in Eastern Bulgaria since the post glacial period; (ii) haplogroup E-V13, which probably originated in Western Asia, has a Mesolithic age in Bulgaria from where it expanded after the spread of farming marked by haplogroup G-P15, J-M410 representatives; (iii) haplogroup J-M241 probably reflects the Neolithic westward expansion of farmers from the earliest sites along the Black Sea.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779

Thanks Maleth for this information. I appreciate it.

 

[Greying Wanderer]

Which E marker in central europe/ Germany, all I see is G2a, T1a, F and I markers before 4500BC

If there were two strands of neolithic farmer: an E strand out of the Levant that mostly spread along the maritime route and a G strand from further east which mostly spread via the Danube route, then you might expect the G and E to be merged in the south but as you go further north the E to drop away leaving mostly or only G.

 

[Sile]

If there were two strands of neolithic farmer: an E strand out of the Levant that mostly spread along the maritime route and a G strand from further east which mostly spread via the Danube route, then you might expect the G and E to be merged in the south but as you go further north the E to drop away leaving mostly or only G.

there are some like yourself that make sense and others are in fantasy lands

The Neolithic farmers in germany via the haak paper, which are G2, T1, F and I markers are noted as north-anatolia or blacksea anatolians and later called Pontic Anatolians.

The E is a northafrica/levant marker to migrate into Europe

The J are the confusing ones................IMO , J1 was with E marker and J2 originated in G2 caucasus/zargos lands and came into Europe slightly later than the G2 Neolithics in Europe

 

[MOESAN]

Most likely he was a wanderer from North Africa.

I think E-V13 has very more chances to be born in Europe than in North-Africa, even if his ancestors came almost surely from North East Africa. In the today hotspot big region for Y-E-V13, the most variance for Y-E1b (but almost all of them V13) are on the coasts of Dalmatia = maritime Croatia, even if the frequence hotspots are in Kosovo, Greece, Albania, and a bit less dense, in Macedonia, Serbia, Serbians of Bosnia, Bulgaria and East Romania.
I thought some times ago Y-E-V13 had made its road along with Y-G2a during the Neolithic advance. Now I'm less sure concerning dates. Maybe its change of gravity center in Balkans is linked to Chalcolithic/Bronze Ages under a Y-J2 launching. Its destiny could have been there linked to the Y-J2 (+ some local Y-I2a1b and some Y-G2a) expansion in the frame of later Cucuteni-Tripolye expansion until Southern Belarus. evidently the later steppic I-Ean and Slavic developments have erased this (supposed by myself) first colonization in Northern lands!
hypothesis upon the today data I have. So, don't disagree totally with you. Y-E1b-V13 could have had a complicated story.

 

[LeBrok]

I think E-V13 has very more chances to be born in Europe than in North-Africa, even if his ancestors came almost surely from North East Africa. In the today hotspot big region for Y-E-V13, the most variance for Y-E1b (but almost all of them V13) are on the coasts of Dalmatia = maritime Croatia, even if the frequence hotspots are in Kosovo, Greece, Albania, and a bit less dense, in Macedonia, Serbia, Serbians of Bosnia, Bulgaria and East Romania.
I thought some times ago Y-E-V13 had made its road along with Y-G2a during the Neolithic advance. Now I'm less sure concerning dates. Maybe its change of gravity center in Balkans is linked to Chalcolithic/Bronze Ages under a Y-J2 launching. Its destiny could have been there linked to the Y-J2 (+ some local Y-I2a1b and some Y-G2a) expansion in the frame of later Cucuteni-Tripolye expansion until Southern Belarus. evidently the later steppic I-Ean and Slavic developments have erased this (supposed by myself) first colonization in Northern lands!
hypothesis upon the today data I have. So, don't disagree totally with you. Y-E1b-V13 could have had a complicated story.

I agree, and this is how I see it in detail.

All modern Y haplogourps since Neolithic had spread around only as farmers and herders. There were no pure hunter gatherers that could spread so successfully since Neolithic, especially into farmers territory. First they needed to meet farmers, mix with them, acquire their successful farmer genes or transfer their Y chromosome, and only then could explode as successful Y haplogroup. Even IE herders (R1) needed to acquire farmer (Armenian like) genes to build up numbers and then expend/conquer.

Let's say that Natufians/fertile crescent first farmers were G2a folks. This means that only G2a carrying farmers were expanding first all over Near East and South Europe. When they were expending they met and assimilated Y haplogroups of local hunter gatherers. Only after this assimilation and giving local Y hg set of farmer genes and culture, these new Y hg could also expend by over-breeding and farther expansion in HGs territory.

This means that we should find G2a mostly, sometimes only, in very Early Neolithic sites, before others were assimilated and turned into farmers. They were like Borg from Star Trek, lol. Resistance was futile.

I'm sure there had to be more haplogroups than G2a in Fertile Crescent. Perhaps G2a expended initially so fast that didn't have time to interact much with H-Gs, and carrying them into Europe? However, from recent research we learned that Y haplogroups really compete with each other (on genetic) level and every couple of thousand of years old haplogroups go extinct and new explode, even if genetic base (autosomal) stays fairly unchanged. On average we still carry about 50% of first farmers genetic material, however their Y chromosome G2a is almost extinct these days. It is counter intuitive, and makes disyphering haplogroups of original populations rather difficult.

Maybe G2a was rather "weak" comparable to other Y hgs? Maybe it made men too peaceful, or a sexual, or something else? Whenever it met other haplogroups it was losing the battle. It had met I2, R1b or J2 and after couple of thousand of years populations turned into almost exclusively I2, R1b or J2.
Isn't Hungarian Neolithic telling us this story? Instead of finding mostly G2a among farmers we find I2, F and C, the local hunter gatherer haplogroups among farmers. However atosomally they were still 90% ENF.

 

[Maleth]

Thanks Maleth for this information. I appreciate it.

Most welcome

 

[Tomenable]

On average we still carry about 50% of first farmers genetic material, however their Y chromosome G2a is almost extinct these days. It is counter intuitive.

Not necessarily, there are many possible models leading to this scenario. For example such a simple model:

http://s2.postimg.org/vjgr8gpux/PIE_model.png

 

[LeBrok]

Not necessarily, there are many possible models leading to this scenario. For example such a simple model:

http://s2.postimg.org/vjgr8gpux/PIE_model.png

Sure, there might have been different forcings, environmental conditions, etc to require a different model. However, this is not what we observe in Hungarian Neolithic case. Automatically they have became all farmers, but G2a became minority. The sample base is rather small to be sure, but this is what it looks like.
G2a guys were in position of power over locals, in numbers and in wealth. It is impossible that they couldn't get brides to procreate, and yet their Y hg was losing the battle.

PS. Is there explanation to the model above why, if things being equal and random, Y hg G is diminishing together with it's autosomal component?

 

[Tomenable]

Automatically they have became all farmers, but G2a became minority.

IMO farmers were not all G2a, but had other HGs too. Plus, farmers taught some hunters how to farm, or assimilated them. Farming was spreading not just through demic diffusion (migrations of farmers), but also cultural transition (hunters learning how to farm).

PS. Is there explanation to the model above why, if things being equal and random, Y hg G is diminishing together with it's autosomal component?

In my model things are not "equal and random", but R come as conquerors and take as many women as they want, while G only have the rest of women. PIE people formed highly patriarchal societies, which was reflected by their language (as this video explains):

 

[Tomenable]

By contrast, societies of Neolithic farmers were less patriarchal (some of them were even matriarchal) and also more egalitarian:

G2a guys were in position of power over locals, in numbers and in wealth.

Nope. Those societies weren't patriarchal. They were often matriarchal, so groups of women were in position of power over others. Those Neolithic societies also tended to be quite egalitarian, which was reflected for example by their collective burials in mass graves. Neolithic cultures didn't have such a social ladder like that of PIEs, who buried their prominent individuals with rich grave goods, in large kurgans.

 

[Tomenable]

Is there explanation to the model above why, if things being equal and random, Y hg G is diminishing together with it's autosomal component?

Because in that model R came together with their women, and because things took place rapidly - during just 3 generations.

In 1st generation I assumed that each R took 3 wifes, and in 2nd generation each R took 1,5 wifes on average. While G took what left.

If the rate at which R was increasing it's percent was slower (for example 1,25 wifes per each R on average), then replacement of G by R would have taken longer time (more generations), but the end result would be with a higher share of Neolithic autosomal DNA. For example instead of 25% G Y-DNA and 58% of G autosomal DNA after 3 generations, we would have 25% G Y-DNA and - say - 70% of G autosomal DNA, but after - say - 15 generations, or something like this (these figures are of course guesses, not calculations).

Of course instead of "wifes" I should have used "wifes and concumbines". Or rather "each R had children with ...".

Because it did not necessarily require marriage to pass their seed to next generations.

If R came without women - just males - and had children with multiple local women, there there would also be 75% R Y-DNA, but more of local autosomal. In my model they came with women, and in 1st generation each of them had children with their own female and 2 other ones.

In my model also there was no population growth but a simple replacement (each couple had 2 children living to adulthood).

I wanted it to be simple. In reality there would be some population growth, so each generation would be a bit larger.

 

[Sile]

I agree, and this is how I see it in detail.

All modern Y haplogourps since Neolithic had spread around only as farmers and herders. There were no pure hunter gatherers that could spread so successfully since Neolithic, especially into farmers territory. First they needed to meet farmers, mix with them, acquire their successful farmer genes or transfer their Y chromosome, and only then could explode as successful Y haplogroup. Even IE herders (R1) needed to acquire farmer (Armenian like) genes to build up numbers and then expend/conquer.

Let's say that Natufians/fertile crescent first farmers were G2a folks. This means that only G2a carrying farmers were expanding first all over Near East and South Europe. When they were expending they met and assimilated Y haplogroups of local hunter gatherers. Only after this assimilation and giving local Y hg set of farmer genes and culture, these new Y hg could also expend by over-breeding and farther expansion in HGs territory.

This means that we should find G2a mostly, sometimes only, in very Early Neolithic sites, before others were assimilated and turned into farmers. They were like Borg from Star Trek, lol. Resistance was futile.

I'm sure there had to be more haplogroups than G2a in Fertile Crescent. Perhaps G2a expended initially so fast that didn't have time to interact much with H-Gs, and carrying them into Europe? However, from recent research we learned that Y haplogroups really compete with each other (on genetic) level and every couple of thousand of years old haplogroups go extinct and new explode, even if genetic base (autosomal) stays fairly unchanged. On average we still carry about 50% of first farmers genetic material, however their Y chromosome G2a is almost extinct these days. It is counter intuitive, and makes disyphering haplogroups of original populations rather difficult.

Maybe G2a was rather "weak" comparable to other Y hgs? Maybe it made men too peaceful, or a sexual, or something else? Whenever it met other haplogroups it was losing the battle. It had met I2, R1b or J2 and after couple of thousand of years populations turned into almost exclusively I2, R1b or J2.
Isn't Hungarian Neolithic telling us this story? Instead of finding mostly G2a among farmers we find I2, F and C, the local hunter gatherer haplogroups among farmers. However atosomally they were still 90% ENF.

You do realise that IJ was once one haplogroup with its own SNP's
IJ (M429, P123, P124, P125, P126, P127, P129, P130, S2, S22)
they split off somewhere ...........like LT was once one marker
....... LT haplogroup (L298 = P326). but this was found with origins in the Sind Valley of Kashmir

If there is no early J in Europe , but there is early I in Europe , then the markers do not originate in Europe

 

[LeBrok]

IMO farmers were not all G2a, but had other HGs too. Plus, farmers taught some hunters how to farm, or assimilated them. Farming was spreading not just through demic diffusion (migrations of farmers), but also cultural transition (hunters learning how to farm).

In individual cases yes, but not in tribal, broader spectrum. If farming was a cultural phenomenon we would have cases of North American Natives turning to farming on a tribal scale, same in case of Australian Aborigines, or other pure hunter gatherers. No such cases recorded, to my knowledge. We also observe this in European Neolithic. There are no farming communities consisting of hunter gatherers, or even mostly hunter gatherers.
Natufians turned farmers very slowly. At least 10 k years of evolution of becoming farmers.

In my model things are not "equal and random", but R come as conquerors and take as many women as they want, while G only have the rest of women. PIE people formed highly patriarchal societies, which was reflected by their language (as this video explains):

In your model Y haplogroup R progresses at same rate as their autosomal genome overtaking G2a. This is not observed in Neolithic Hungary. It is not observed in Yamnaya either.
It is possible that Near Eastern farmers came already with slightly mixed Y hromosomes, but the ones that we found in their communities beside G2a, especially in late Neolithic, are turning to be European HG's haplogroups.

In Iberia today we have mostly IE R1b clades, at the same time they are more than 50% EEF like.

Ones we have samples from Early Neolithic from Fertile Crescent, things should clear up.

 

[LeBrok]

By contrast, societies of Neolithic farmers were less patriarchal (some of them were even matriarchal) and also more egalitarian:

Maybe they had low testosterone and low sex drive?

Nope. Those societies weren't patriarchal. They were often matriarchal, so groups of women were in position of power over others. Those Neolithic societies also tended to be quite egalitarian, which was reflected for example by their collective burials in mass graves. Neolithic cultures didn't have such a social ladder like that of PIEs, who buried their prominent individuals with rich grave goods, in large kurgans.

Whatever it was it needs to explain why farmer autosomal was very high but their Y G2a very low in mid and late Neolithic. H-Gs transferred their Y DNA into farmers but not the Autosomal. It has to be a big reason.

 

[Greying Wanderer]

there are some like yourself that make sense and others are in fantasy lands

The Neolithic farmers in germany via the haak paper, which are G2, T1, F and I markers are noted as north-anatolia or blacksea anatolians and later called Pontic Anatolians.

The E is a northafrica/levant marker to migrate into Europe

The J are the confusing ones................IMO , J1 was with E marker and J2 originated in G2 caucasus/zargos lands and came into Europe slightly later than the G2 Neolithics in Europe

Yeah, I'm thinking the two streams were (very roughly):
E+J1 (from Levant, via coastal expansion)
G+J2 (from somewhere further east, via Danubian expansion)

so you get a mixture of E&G in the south but mostly G as you go further north (possible exception north Atlantic coast cos also coastal).

 

[LeBrok]

Because in that model R came together with their women, and because things took place rapidly - during just 3 generations.

In 1st generation I assumed that each R took 3 wifes, and in 2nd generation each R took 1,5 wifes on average. While G took what left.

If the rate at which R was increasing it's percent was slower (for example 1,25 wifes per each R on average), then replacement of G by R would have taken longer time (more generations), but the end result would be with a higher share of Neolithic autosomal DNA. For example instead of 25% G Y-DNA and 58% of G autosomal DNA after 3 generations, we would have 25% G Y-DNA and - say - 70% of G autosomal DNA, but after - say - 15 generations, or something like this (these figures are of course guesses, not calculations).

Of course instead of "wifes" I should have used "wifes and concumbines". Or rather "each R had children with ...".

Because it did not necessarily require marriage to pass their seed to next generations.

If R came without women - just males - and had children with multiple local women, there there would also be 75% R Y-DNA, but more of local autosomal. In my model they came with women, and in 1st generation each of them had children with their own female and 2 other ones.

In my model also there was no population growth but a simple replacement (each couple had 2 children living to adulthood).

I wanted it to be simple. In reality there would be some population growth, so each generation would be a bit larger.

It explains explosion of R in farmer community. Now explain why farmer autosomal is disproportionally higher in relation to hg R? R coming with their women doesn't help to explain.
It has to be something genetic making chromosome R very successful, but also something genetic made farmer autosomal successful too. Just mixing, conquering, killing, stealing women or cultural education can't explain it. Not mentioning that they didn't know who carries R haplogoup or who is autosomally a farmer.

 

[Greying Wanderer]

In individual cases yes, but not in tribal, broader spectrum. If farming was a cultural phenomenon we would have cases of North American Natives turning to farming on a tribal scale, same in case of Australian Aborigines, or other pure hunter gatherers. No such cases recorded, to my knowledge.

However there are lots of recorded cases where HGs were recruited by farmers/ranchers as workers so maybe those central european sites with HG ydna in a farming context were similar?

 

[LeBrok]

However there are lots of recorded cases where HGs were recruited by farmers/ranchers as workers so maybe those central european sites with HG ydna in a farming context were similar?

There are individual cases of willing laborers. We shouldn't exclude labour by force in form of slavery. We know how common it was in the past.
There was huge effort by white man to culturally change the ways of American Natives, through schools, convents, and forceful indoctrination in Western lifestyle. In overwhelming numbers these efforts didn't bring expected results.
We should also noted that central American Natives had no problem with embracing farming, large scale farming. We know, however, that they were farmers before Spaniards showed up.
This points to farming (repetitive hard work, planning and scheduling, sedentary lifestyle, etc) being a set of genetic traits. Slowly build up in populations for thousands of years of experimentation with farming. Without these traits you can't make one to farm. They would rather roam in bands all day and hunt, or lie around and sleep. The proper H-G way of life. Predispositions make us behave naturally in certain ways.

 

[Maleth]

Maybe they had low testosterone and low sex drive?

Zinc is an important mineral to a healthy sex drive and its found mostly in animal products. I think Hunter gatherers were much higher on meat, and maybe later adopted a more animal raising farming technique (and the land permited it with greener pastures) in comparison to a high grain/vegtable yield. It can make sense.

 

[Tomenable]

It explains explosion of R in farmer community. Now explain why farmer autosomal is disproportionally higher in relation to hg R?

I think I already explained that - quite simply, R had children with Neolithic farmer women. My model shows that.

Today in Paraguay overwhelming majority have Spanish Y-DNA haplogroups, even though their autosomal DNA is largely native Guarani.

Just mixing, conquering, killing, stealing women or cultural education can't explain it.

It can perfectly explain it.

Not mentioning that they didn't know who carries R haplogoup or who is autosomally a farmer.

They did not have to know it.

This points to farming (repetitive hard work, planning and scheduling, sedentary lifestyle, etc) being a set of genetic traits. Slowly build up in populations for thousands of years of experimentation with farming. Without these traits you can't make one to farm.

This claim is totally ridiculous. It is like claiming that you cannot drive a car if you don't have Karl Benz's DNA.

Innovations like farming, radio, factories, cars, etc. are invented by very small groups of people, and spread through cultural transition.

Overwhelming majority of car mechanics and of people with driving licence are NOT descendants of Karl Bez.