Where did proto-IE language start?

[Nik]

You've got it all wrong, once again. If Indo-European evolved out of a supposed European macrolanguage group; then that means the spread of it may have been adopted or used by loads of people; because they were LITERATE. It could be that these languages were easier to put into Alphabet. Remember the Indo-Europeans saw themselves as "refined" or "sacred" people. If there was in invasion; they probably looked down upon the non-IE speaking "savages" and took their women.

It's just like the Romance languages evolving from Roman into French and Romanian... That's how German and Celtic are so different..only they are more distinct groups of Indo-European, and not just a subgroup like French or Romanian are to Latin (romance)...

Are claiming that the early IE were literate?

And No, the IE were not culturally more advanced than the non-IE, as it's usually the other way around, especially in the more southern regions. U even mentioned Vinca culture, doesn't that ring a bell?

 

[Korbyn]

Are claiming that the early IE were literate?

And No, the IE were not culturally more advanced than the non-IE, as it's usually the other way around, especially in the more southern regions. U even mentioned Vinca culture, doesn't that ring a bell?

The point is that Indo-Europeans were more Mobil...and able to disperse their languages more readily and easily. Maybe they developed better metals ... and domesticated more animals.

 

[LeBrok]

The point is that Indo-Europeans were more Mobil...and able to disperse their languages more readily and easily. Maybe they developed better metals

... and domesticated more animals.

Sure, Kryptonite and domesticated Unicorns . It is not unknown to keep guessing. Check archeology, we know all they domesticated and metals they used.

 

[Angela]

You've got it all wrong, once again. If Indo-European evolved out of a supposed European macrolanguage group; then that means the spread of it may have been adopted or used by loads of people; because they were LITERATE. It could be that these languages were easier to put into Alphabet. Remember the Indo-Europeans saw themselves as "refined" or "sacred" people. If there was in invasion; they probably looked down upon the non-IE speaking "savages" and took their women.

It's just like the Romance languages evolving from Roman into French and Romanian... That's how German and Celtic are so different..only they are more distinct groups of Indo-European, and not just a subgroup like French or Romanian are to Latin (romance)...

Also, Vincha culture records these old forms of Proto-Writing or possibly the earliest forms of Alphabet circa 7,000-8,000 years ago:

View attachment 7848

Vinča culture:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinča_culture


Tell me if you can find some Vasconic scripts (other than Punic...or Greco-Phoenician...) for Basque. That's right, you can't find any.

And Berberids and Guanches (among other Afro-Asiatic speakers) used Punic scripts..

(Funny thing is, if you look closely in that Vincha culture script, you can find a Swastika among the symbols. Interesting, that.)

The first attested written Indo-European language, Hittite, is found in the Near East and thousands of years later, 1700-1200 BC, and much later than the first writing for non-Indo-European languages.

The first alphabet was created by the Phoenicians, Semitic speakers, as an adaptation of an Egyptian script.

Vinca was "Old Europe": nothing to do with "Indo-Europeans".

They were illiterate. End of story.

Please read the following before commenting further. It is annoying to have to keep correcting the record for newer devotees of this hobby.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet

I don't agree with everything in this, but at least you'll get some of the basics down.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages

 

[Korbyn]

I doubt the Phoenicians invented the first literary alphabet. There were writings of Tocharian found alongside graves of white Caucasoids (Europeans?) in Tarim Basin, China.

Remember that the Indo-Europeans saw themselves as noble. Aryan means Noble in Indo-Aryan languages. Sanskrit means "refined, sanctified" etc.

If there was an IE invasion from Eastern Europe/Central Asia; they probably saw the more Western Europeans (probably not speaking IE?) as "savages" and killed most of em, took some as slaves; and procreated with their women. It would go along well with Maciamo's theory of how the Basques became R1b. (Basques being Celts that took a Neolithic tongue. And never assimilating into Roman or surrounding IE cultures etc.)

 

[Korbyn]

The first attested written Indo-European language, Hittite, is found in the Near East and thousands of years later, 1700-1200 BC, and much later than the first writing for non-Indo-European languages.

The first alphabet was created by the Phoenicians, Semitic speakers, as an adaptation of an Egyptian script.

Vinca was "Old Europe": nothing to do with "Indo-Europeans".

They were illiterate. End of story.

Please read the following before commenting further. It is annoying to have to keep correcting the record for newer devotees of this hobby.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet

I don't agree with everything in this, but at least you'll get some of the basics down.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages

I don't recall saying that Vincha were illiterate. Do you mean Indo-European being illiterate? In that case, from day 1, because of the evident Sanskrit language; I can tell you that is definitely not true. Indo-Europeans have always been literate. Even Sumerians and Egyptians were literate.

The only language and language group that does not have it's own original alphabet is the Basque or Vasconic language group.

 

[Korbyn]

Sure, Kryptonite and domesticated Unicorns . It is not unknown to keep guessing. Check archeology, we know all they domesticated and metals they used.

If the cult of proto-Indo-Europeans originated in Eastern Europe and Central Asia or even as South as Iraq (or, wherever IE Urheimat was located.) then these people probably discovered a way to create better metal and breed healthier animals. They also had the best alphabet systems and were the most advanced. ​The most advanced - this is what I was implying.

 

[LeBrok]

I don't recall saying that Vincha were illiterate. Do you mean Indo-European being illiterate? In that case, from day 1, because of the evident Sanskrit language; I can tell you that is definitely not true. Indo-Europeans have always been literate. Even Sumerians and Egyptians were literate.

The only language and language group that does not have it's own original alphabet is the Basque or Vasconic language group.

If the cult of proto-Indo-Europeans originated in Eastern Europe and Central Asia or even as South as Iraq (or, wherever IE Urheimat was located.) then these people probably discovered a way to create better metal and breed healthier animals. They also had the best alphabet systems and were the most advanced. ​The most advanced - this is what I was implying.

That does it. I'm not going to reason with a person who ignores all archeological, genetic and historic facts. A person who only pools convenient tidbits from all available material to create and to support his own fantasy universe.

 

[Korbyn]

That does it. I'm not going to reason with a person who ignores all archeological, genetic and historic facts. A person who only pools convenient tidbits from all available material to create and to support his own fantasy universe.

What are you going on about? I never stated that I was true. In fact, you can't even know the truth. Unless you have been there. So what are you saying; that I am a quack?

 

[Korbyn]

That does it. I'm not going to reason with a person who ignores all archeological, genetic and historic facts. A person who only pools convenient tidbits from all available material to create and to support his own fantasy universe.

There are multiple theories on everything. The mainstream theory is not always the one that is correct. Maciamo's theory of the Basques and R1b for example; probably would be seen as unfavorable; in mainstream circles. So why are you attacking me?

What exactly am I ignoring? I don't think you understood the intention of my posts; or I misunderstood something about you. Cause I think you are seeing me in a negative light.

I was implying, by the way - it does not necessarily mean that what I was saying is true. But the Indo-European peoples do show evidence of being very superior or advanced, people for their time. Ask a historian; Sumer and Egypt are both non-IE, but they were pretty advanced.

Amerindians lived in almost pure isolation and had the Mayan and Aztec Empires in Central America while North American natives were more hunter-gatherer.

 

[Korbyn]

That does it. I'm not going to reason with a person who ignores all archeological, genetic and historic facts. A person who only pools convenient tidbits from all available material to create and to support his own fantasy universe.

What makes you believe that Indo-Europeans were illiterate though? Well, they might have been for some time. But I wonder if Indo-European is a language group formed out of a macrolanguage group. (just a theory)

The other groups of this hypothesized macro language group, may have evolved into the Vasconic language group, Kartvelian, and everything else. etc

 

[Korbyn]

That does it. I'm not going to reason with a person who ignores all archeological, genetic and historic facts. A person who only pools convenient tidbits from all available material to create and to support his own fantasy universe.

Nevermind. (delete this post if you see it as necessary.)

 

[LeBrok]

Nevermind. (delete this post if you see it as necessary.)

What are you talking about? I was just on a phone with president Obama and he told me that he revoked your permission to post on Eupedia, or use internet at all! Perhaps till you catch up with recent development in archeology and genetics to have full understanding on subjects.

 

[Korbyn]

What are you talking about? I was just on a phone with president Obama and he told me that he revoked your permission to post on Eupedia, or use internet at all! Perhaps till you catch up with recent development in archeology and genetics to have full understanding on subjects.

This comment seems passive-aggressive and patronizing.

Perhaps till you catch up with recent development in archeology and genetics to have full understanding on subjects.

What recent developments? Do you have access to the ISOGG? Do you have a membership card from the Fed. Government sent from you by the base in West Virginia? What level of Masonry are you on? Let's not turn this thread into a juvenile argument. Are you even a real Pole? Doesn't your last name end with -wicz? That explains everything.

Maybe I can look your address up, what car you drive, what people you're acquainted with. So, how was your last Hanukkah ?

 

[Korbyn]

What are you talking about? I was just on a phone with president Obama and he told me that he revoked your permission to post on Eupedia, or use internet at all! Perhaps till you catch up with recent development in archeology and genetics to have full understanding on subjects.

Oh I see. You're a Russian Jew who is pretending to be Polish Canadian and using a French Canadian name. Makes sense now.

 

[Garrick]

My theory is that the Yugoslavs are the more archaic Slavic people. Despite what Albanian nationalists may tell you; there is more evidence, conclusive to me, at least; that Albanians are nothing more than a Black-Sea people. And there was no Slavic invasion in 6 AD. (It could be; that Slavs are Dacians or Thracians, or related. Which would explain why both tribes and languages went extinct around these centuries; while the Slavic people were first written about during 5th or 6th AD.)

It is for this thread about language (not for I2a).

Because some people thought Balkan hypothesis is plausible. According it Albanian language could emerge somewhere in the Balkans.

But new papers shown that it is not true. According Haak, Lazaridis, Patterson et al. Balkan hypothesis is not plausible.

Interesting discussion was several years ago, one Armenian member and I explained that direction of IE could go from Armenian plateau but some other members thought that direction IE was from Balkans to Armenia.

And Haak, Lazaridis, Patterson, et al. argue:

"The Armenian plateau hypothesis gains in plausibility by the fact that we have discovered evidence of admixture in the ancestry of Yamnaya steppe pastoralists, including gene flow from a population of Near Eastern ancestry for which Armenians today appear to be a reasonable surrogate (SI4, SI7, SI9). "

"Examining ancient DNA from the Caucasus and Near East may be able to provide further insight about the dynamics of the interaction between these regions and the steppe. Our results show that southern populations diluted the ancestry of populations from the steppe, but also that ancestry related to Ancient North Eurasians forms a major ancestral component of the populations of the present-day Caucasus25. Thus, both south-north and north-south genetic influence across the Caucasus is plausible."

Origin of Albanian is not in the Balkans. Just the opposite, origin could be somewhere between (Eastern) Anatolia-Southern Caucasus. Albanian has similarities with Armenian and (Ancient) Greek, even maybe some North Iranian languages? And how speakers of Albanian moved to the present Romania/Moldavia/Southern Ukraine (some Free Dacian tribes, probably Carpi, possible Costoboci), Albanian language had many different influences: Dacian/Thracian; Eastern Balkan Latin (from Romanian), German (Germanic tribe Bastarnae), Balto-Slavic etc. After coming to present day Albania language had influences from Greek, Slavic, etc, and after Islamization from Turkish (and Arab).

In this context we can look hypothesis that Proto-Albanian emerged somewhere around Eastern Black sea (for example todays Abkhazia and neighborhood). It is not much different from hypothesis that Proto-Albanian emerged in the area Anatolia-Southern Caucasus. Speakers of Proto-Albanian could go through Back sea area from Anatolia-Southern Caucasus.

 

[Korbyn]

It is for this thread about language (not for I2a).

Because some people thought Balkan hypothesis is plausible. According it Albanian language could emerge somewhere in the Balkans.

But new papers shown that it is not true. According Haak, Lazaridis, Patterson et al. Balkan hypothesis is not plausible.

Interesting discussion was several years ago, one Armenian member and I explained that direction of IE could go from Armenian plateau but some other members thought that direction IE was from Balkans to Armenia.

And Haak, Lazaridis, Patterson, et al. argue:

"The Armenian plateau hypothesis gains in plausibility by the fact that we have discovered evidence of admixture in the ancestry of Yamnaya steppe pastoralists, including gene flow from a population of Near Eastern ancestry for which Armenians today appear to be a reasonable surrogate (SI4, SI7, SI9). "

"Examining ancient DNA from the Caucasus and Near East may be able to provide further insight about the dynamics of the interaction between these regions and the steppe. Our results show that southern populations diluted the ancestry of populations from the steppe, but also that ancestry related to Ancient North Eurasians forms a major ancestral component of the populations of the present-day Caucasus25. Thus, both south-north and north-south genetic influence across the Caucasus is plausible."

Origin of Albanian is not in the Balkans. Just the opposite, origin could be somewhere between (Eastern) Anatolia-Southern Caucasus. Albanian has similarities with Armenian and (Ancient) Greek, even some North Iranian languages? And how speakers of Albanian moved to the present Romania/Moldavia/Southern Ukraine (some Free Dacian tribes, probably Carpi, possible Costoboci), Albanian language had many different influences: Dacian/Thracian; Eastern Balkan Latin (from Romanian), German (Germanic tribe Bastarnae), Balto-Slavic etc. After coming to present day Albania language had influences from Greek, Slavic, etc, and after Islamization from Turkish (and Arab).

In this context we can look hypothesis that Proto-Albanian emerged somewhere around Eastern Black sea (for example todays Abkhazia and neighborhood). It is not much different from hypothesis that Proto-Albanian emerged in the area Anatolia-Southern Caucasus. Speakers of Proto-Albanian could go through Back sea area from Anatolia-Southern Caucasus.

I remember Maciamo specifically commenting on a Balkanic origin for the Armenians. I found that to be actually pretty interesting.

Edit: I also believe that Albanians-Phyrgians-Armenians have a close relation, if not distinctive kinship to the original Anatolians or Anatolia. There seems to be at least some subsequent relation. A lot of mainstream anthropologists attempt to discredit these theories; though. Not even taking them seriously, as if they "know it all". It comes to my surprise recently that the mainstream anthropology community are only telling half-truths, and not the full story.

Another interesting thing about Armenians is that they are more genetically distinct from other people in the Caucasus; and are one of the only few in the region to speak Indo-European. (the others being mostly Ossetian)

 

[Korbyn]

Perhaps till you catch up with recent development in archeology and genetics to have full understanding on subjects.

Who's recent development in archaeology? I think that Rethel was onto something while complaining to you. And what I've dug up on you, and this could easily be wrong; is that you and your family are actually from Russian-occupied Poland and possibly Jewish. Not that there is anything wrong with that; but it's what I found on you.

You are just like the people who proclaim the Altaic macro-language as being a load of bull. (when it is reality) And whenever I try to state facts (that I know of...) it seems that you passive-aggressively are trying to character assassinate. (Read Thus Spake Zarathustra by Nietzsche. Your attempts at manipulating situations, criticizing my theories (which can be partially backed by DNA evidence and history...) and making me look dumb, make you look like a poison clubfoot imp (metaphor) in this...)

 

[Korbyn]

It is for this thread about language (not for I2a).

Because some people thought Balkan hypothesis is plausible. According it Albanian language could emerge somewhere in the Balkans.

But new papers shown that it is not true. According Haak, Lazaridis, Patterson et al. Balkan hypothesis is not plausible.

Interesting discussion was several years ago, one Armenian member and I explained that direction of IE could go from Armenian plateau but some other members thought that direction IE was from Balkans to Armenia.

And Haak, Lazaridis, Patterson, et al. argue:

"The Armenian plateau hypothesis gains in plausibility by the fact that we have discovered evidence of admixture in the ancestry of Yamnaya steppe pastoralists, including gene flow from a population of Near Eastern ancestry for which Armenians today appear to be a reasonable surrogate (SI4, SI7, SI9). "

"Examining ancient DNA from the Caucasus and Near East may be able to provide further insight about the dynamics of the interaction between these regions and the steppe. Our results show that southern populations diluted the ancestry of populations from the steppe, but also that ancestry related to Ancient North Eurasians forms a major ancestral component of the populations of the present-day Caucasus25. Thus, both south-north and north-south genetic influence across the Caucasus is plausible."

Origin of Albanian is not in the Balkans. Just the opposite, origin could be somewhere between (Eastern) Anatolia-Southern Caucasus. Albanian has similarities with Armenian and (Ancient) Greek, even maybe some North Iranian languages? And how speakers of Albanian moved to the present Romania/Moldavia/Southern Ukraine (some Free Dacian tribes, probably Carpi, possible Costoboci), Albanian language had many different influences: Dacian/Thracian; Eastern Balkan Latin (from Romanian), German (Germanic tribe Bastarnae), Balto-Slavic etc. After coming to present day Albania language had influences from Greek, Slavic, etc, and after Islamization from Turkish (and Arab).

In this context we can look hypothesis that Proto-Albanian emerged somewhere around Eastern Black sea (for example todays Abkhazia and neighborhood). It is not much different from hypothesis that Proto-Albanian emerged in the area Anatolia-Southern Caucasus. Speakers of Proto-Albanian could go through Back sea area from Anatolia-Southern Caucasus.

I am thinking around this area:



Or even Syria, Iraq or Iran (or somewhere definitely near both Black Sea and Caspian Sea) is where the Indo-European languages may have first dispersed. Some of these lands were originally Persian and even Scythian, and were taken by Afro-Asiatic invaders.

(Makes me wonder if LeBrok knows this predetermined; but set-up this posting in order to feed information off us... *eye roll* but what do I know.)

 

[LeBrok]

Who's recent development in archaeology? I think that Rethel was onto something while complaining to you. And what I've dug up on you, and this could easily be wrong; is that you and your family are actually from Russian-occupied Poland and possibly Jewish. Not that there is anything wrong with that; but it's what I found on you.

Oh, Rethel your buddy, likewise versed in archeology and genetics. With friend like him you can't go wrong. Birds of a feather...

You are just like the people who proclaim the Altaic macro-language as being a load of bull. (when it is reality) And whenever I try to state facts (that I know of...) it seems that you passive-aggressively are trying to character assassinate. (Read Thus Spake Zarathustra by Nietzsche. Your attempts at manipulating situations, criticizing my theories (which can be partially backed by DNA evidence and history...)

Let's leave it like that, unless you make theories fully supported by DNA evidence, archeology and history.

and making me look dumb, make you look like a poison clubfoot imp (metaphor) in this...)

Oops, another infraction.