Where did proto-IE language start?

[LeBrok]

Last few years we received many genetic samples from Europe and West-Central Asia, which seem to agree with hypothesis of steppe origin of Indo-European languages. We have known for years that IE languages correlate strongly with haplogroups R1a and R1b, and now, thanks to recent sequencing of ancient genomes, we can witness how these haplogroups flown through times and corresponded with ancient cultures, and had spread through Eurasia. Most likely also carrying IE culture and IE languages with them. Not only Y haplogroups, but data from autosomal part of DNA, genetic distances, and genetic similarities (admixtures), also seem to agree with Steppe origin of IEs. Research is still young, there are still many question to be answered, and there is nothing really conclusive, but at least there are no contradictions to out of Steppe origin of IE in new data.

Talking about some of the questions...
Recently, it became obvious that Yamnaya culture, which is associated with ethnogenesis of Indo-Europeans, wasn't a genetic moonlit. There wasn't one well mixed nation there. Although R1a and R1b folks belonged to the same Yamnaya cultural horizon, they didn't mix much if at all. How come they carried out IE language, or spoke same proto-IE language is still mystery, and probably will be forever? Before Yamnaya they all were hunter-gatherers there. We can draw a linguistic parallel from HGs of recent times, the North American Natives or Amazon HGs, to HGs of Europe. Language map of Native Americans tells us, that basically, wherever there is a HG tribe there is a different dialect, language or different language family. It wouldn't possibly be a different story in Paleolithic Europe. There must have been good few language families and hundreds of languages. In Eastern Europe there were at least two language families of R1a and R1b folks, and many separate languages. Therefore proto IE language, if it was one, it either came from biggest/dominant R1a tribe or biggest R1b. Or did it?

Here is a twist. Judging by history of last 500 years when European farmer societies started to conquer the world, whenever they landed they managed to introduce their language over hunter gatherer natives. There is not even one example of reverse situation of HGs introducing their language on farmer society. Going back to Yamnaya. From archeology and from genetics we learned that Yamnaya folks were not pure hunter gatherers. They were already mixed and still mixing with farmers coming from south. We know almost for certain that East Yamnaya had their farmer admixture from South Caucasus region, and so far from archeology only we can suppose that West Yamnaya got their farmer culture from interacting with Cucuteni-Tripolye.
If recent history could be an indicator into the past, we can assume that Yamnaya got their proto-IE language from farmers. Like through a common denominator. However, a new question arrives, which farmers? The ones form Caucasus/Mykop region or the ones from Cucuteni?

My take:
I think that it is very possible that proto-IE language comes from Cucuteni farmers, with substratum of hunter gatherers from West Ukraine. We still don't know what R1 folks lived there. R1b was only found in Paleolithic/Neolithic Eastern Ymanya, and R1a was found in Paleolithic, North-West off later Yamnaya horizon. We don't have Cucuteni Neolithic samples, nor Bronze Age samples from this area. There as well, in West Yamnaya could have been R1b guys who moved to West and South Europe in Bronze Age as IE. Or they have spread in waves through Bronze and Iron Age till Scythian/East Iranians kicked the rest out from West Ukrain. Likewise R1a guys could have received IE language from same Cucuteni farmers who have spread farther North, or maybe R1a were the closest neighbors to Cucuteni in West Yamnaya? Who knows at that point?
For me the common farmer "cultural medium" can explains common IE language of R1a and R1b as Indo-Europeans. They got the proto-IE language together with agriculture, and Yamnaya EEF admixture points to social mingling and procreation of these two groups.

The truth is that we might never figure this out, there are no written records about their languages, and neither genes nor pottery carries information about a language. Well, unless something is written on pottery.

It might be as well a matter of opinion or romantic indulgence.

 

[Arame]

Good analysis. Cucuteni is a interesting candidate but I highly doubt that they did have a "teal" component. What we see is that this "teal" is present in every Bronze Age culture.

 

[LeBrok]

This was posted by Angela here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...n-Iberian-data?p=460288&viewfull=1#post460288

Originally Posted by Tomenable
We really need to check autosomal DNA of Cucuteni-Trypillian people.

Did they have Near Eastern admixture similar to that found later in Yamnaya.

Originally Posted by Tomenable
We really need to check autosomal DNA of Cucuteni-Trypillian people.

Did they have Near Eastern admixture similar to that found later in Yamnaya.

Tomenable, it's one thing to speculate that maybe some R1b men moved early into the Balkans and adopted "Neolithic farmer" languages, even though that's wild speculation.

It's something else again to say that R1b moved in the first instance from the Balkans to the steppe and there not only adopted the Indo-European language but participated in the ethnogenesis of the Yamnaya people.

The genetics are totally against that. We have a hunter gatherer R1b from Samara who was EHG. Then we have the later Yamnaya culture R1b samples who are no longer "pure" EHG. Their EHG was "diluted" by admixture with a population that was itself minority EHG and majority "Near Eastern". That "Near Eastern" was not the EEF which would have been present in the Balkans. Moreover, no European farmer has yet shown an EHG component. There was also an "eastern" South Asian related component in Yamnaya that we don't see in WHG or EEF, and that in fact doesn't show up in Europe until the coming of the Indo-Europeans.

I just don't think there's any evidence for what you're proposing, and a lot of evidence that suggests otherwise. Now, of course we have to wait and see the samples. Maybe some of the more western shifted Yamnaya people had a slice of EEF from the Balkan people moving onto the steppe, but there's none of that in the Yamnaya we have so far. That migration east just didn't reach that far.

Also, to base so much on the current distribution of subclades of R1b in Iberia isn't warranted, in my opinion. Iberia isn't like Italy. We're known since Ralph and Coop et al that there is no significant autosomal substructure of that kind in Iberia other than for the Basques. I think that may have to do with the Reconquista and with the deliberate policy of population resettlement engaged in by Spanish and Portuguese royalty. Who knows what it used to look like?

If anything, it would be more likely, I think, that R1a was north of the core area, and was Indo-Europeanized by R1b, although I think it might have been that both of them spoke it and participated in the creation of the unique Indo-European culture.

 

[LeBrok]

If anything, it would be more likely, I think, that R1a was north of the core area, and was Indo-Europeanized by R1b, although I think it might have been that both of them spoke it and participated in the creation of the unique Indo-European culture.

I think it is viable possibility that West Yamnaya was also populated by R1b, the source of European M269, unlike East Yamnaya, Samara M478.

R1a and R1b were so unmixed that it is hard to imagine them speaking same language without a common denominator, the farmers.

 

[LeBrok]

Good analysis. Cucuteni is a interesting candidate but I highly doubt that they did have a "teal" component. What we see is that this "teal" is present in every Bronze Age culture.

Wasn't the teal color part or equivalent of ANE admixture? It was part of HG ancestry of Yamnaya, not the Cucuteni faremrs. IE/bronze age culture contains part of Steppe HGs therefore "teal"/ANE component.

 

[arvistro]

To me next enigma is GAC culture. It started 500 years before Corded. It was almost contemporary to Yamna (century younger).
According to Gimbutas it was early IE. According to Pashka semi-scientific speculations it was Centum. R1b in Europe? Italo-Celtics? Mixed area of GAC/Corded = Germanics? Corded = Euro (and not only Euro) Satem?
GAC influences in Corded can be felt as far East as Fatyanovo, with GAC influenced Fatyanovo ceramics present even at Sintashta.

What do we know about GAC genetically (uniparent or autosomal)?

 

[Rethel]

Le Brok,

can you add R1.
This is my vote.

 

[LeBrok]

Le Brok,

can you add R1.
This is my vote.

20-30 thousand years ago is the estimation of R1 coming to existence. You don't believe that any language can exist that long in same or similar form, do you? After 1,500 years Slavs have problems understanding each other, and you want to push one language existance 10 or 20 times as far.

 

[Finalise]

I personally think the assumption Z2103 eastern Yamna samples being descendants of the R1b1* HG because of EHG components is about as ridiculous as modern Spaniards being descendants of the R1b1* Neolithic farmer because of EEF component. There is no way M269, L23, Z2103 all mutated within that short period of time in Volga within a 1-2000 year time frame. We have two R1b1*s scattered in two different sides of the continent in a short amount of time. The R1b1*s were a nomadic bunch with very different autosomal components. The supposed Armenian R1b is also most likely not a descendant of Yamna and upstream of Yamna, making a West Asian origin very much likely. V88 also very much shows R1b was out of Siberia at that point.Cucuteni being originally R1b late neolithic farmers and being Indo-Europianized in EBA is a pretty viable option. Either way anthropologists have to pick whether it was R1a CW that spread PIE language, or R1b BBs that spread PIE, because both of them doing so destroys the Kurgan hypothesis which said PIE was 1 language. If both of them did it, one of them has to be the original IE, and the other Indo-Europeanized.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Cucuteni were some European farmers, so mainly G2a mixed with some herders coming from Anatolia (cfr Hamangia culture). Some local I2a may have mixed with them too.
IMO east of Cucuteni were some more I2a.
Maykop is a bigger mystery than Cucuteni. It is supposed to be a colony of copper miners, because of high demands from Uruk.
We have no DNA from Maykop either.
IMO R1 came from Transcaucasia. Some were HG and crossed Caucasus, see East European HG R1a and R1b in Haak et al. Some others adopted herding, see R1b-V88.
IMO Maykop was the main catalyser, not Cucuteni, but it is clear steppe people had contact with both.
Both studies, Haak et al and Allentoft et al didn't say anything about the Anatolian branch.
Nothing is said about the steppe people that infiltrated and changed the Balkans after the collapse of 'Old Europe' 4300-3800 BC.
Were they R1? Were they IE?

 

[Rethel]

20-30 thousand years ago is the estimation of R1 coming to existence. You don't believe that any language can exist that long in same or similar form, do you? After 1,500 years Slavs have problems understanding each other, and you want to push one language existance 10 or 20 times as far.

You see - you again impute me something, what I didn't say.
You're really liking discuss with your own thoughts. Amazing.

You yourself gave a possibility, that PIE language was originated in the
culture combined with both: R1a and R1b - so, do you have a problem
whith your own statement, or what? If it was R1a and R1b = R1. Isn't?

If you do not belive yourself, maybe you'll belive Angela? She wrote:

If anything, it would be more likely, I think, that R1a was north of the core area, and was Indo-Europeanized by R1b, although I think it might have been that both of them spoke it and participated in the creation of the unique Indo-European culture.

As you see, she has so terrible unscientific and obscure thoughts
about it, like christians unbrained biggots! Is it not shocking for you? etrified:

Btw, the earliest findings shaw us, that this two groups were
coexisted millenia before Yamna - doesn't this tell you anything?

Btw2 - before period of yamna they werent mute, so it doesnt
matter how close were the dialects which they used, and which
were after that totaly replaced by yamna dialect/language.

Roman Latin replaced all dialects of Latinians and all languages
of Italics, Hochdeutsch replaced many germanic languages and
dialects in Deustchland, Beijings dialect is repalaicing/or allready
replaced many dialects of mandarinian and languages of Han
people - did they changed their identity, nationality, heritage,
kinship because of that or what?

Why we're still talking about Slavs or even Indoeuropeans in
present day world, if they are since so long ago disconnected
by language, politics, race, religion and culture...? It does not
make any sense in your point... so many thousands of years,
and they cannot understand each other... we shouldn't talk
about this group any more, because it is 5500-9000 years
since PIE became to existance and was devided!!


20.000? Yea... but even if...

It is really so hard to add this one answer?

Could you be so nice and do this for me once?

 

[Finalise]

P.S. Here's a THEORY since I do not have any convictions. However, I think this makes much more sense, in that Maykyop L23*/Z2103s Indo-Europianized R1a north of them, which also explains the L23*/Z2103 in Eastern Europe.

 

[Rethel]

Cucuteni were some European farmers, so mainly G2a mixed with some herders coming from Anatolia (cfr Hamangia culture). Some local I2a may have mixed with them too.

How many simples I2 and G2 are known for Cucuteni?

Maykop is a bigger mystery than Cucuteni. It is supposed to be a colony of copper miners, because of high demands from Uruk.
We have no DNA from Maykop either.

That suggest, that this can be a mix.

 

[bicicleur 2]

How many simples I2 and G2 are known for Cucuteni?



That suggest, that this can be a mix.

zero samples for Cucuteni
zero samples for Maykop

also zero samples for Usatovo / Cernavoda / Troy (looking for Anatolian branch)

 

[arvistro]

PIE is the latest reconstruction stage of language that satisfies all IE branches. Some pre-forms of IE go deeper into past, and some form of dialectal continuity is possible long before PIE, where proto-PIE itself is one dialect.

Indo-Uralic is proposed by Kortlandt, but other linguists have looked for Semitic connections. For farmer theory Indo-Basque or Indo-Etruscan would be great proposals, I dont know such theories with big names supporting them.

Instead Basques-Caucasian links are sought for. If so, it does make sense to mark those as Neolithic Farmers - derived (at least for non-pro and Baltic biased like me). Because what else would such unity represent?

 

[Arame]

LeBrok
"Teal" component peaks in Caucasus and Hindukush, so it is similar to West Asian component. Davidski who introduced this term think they are farmers. http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2015/04/the-teal-people-did-they-actually-exist.html
Maciamo thinks it is related to the G1 farmers.

The problem of Cucuteni is also linguistic. It can't explain Kartvelian connection. Or we must made the assumption that the Kartvelian is linked to Cucuteni farmers.
Also let's not forget about some important connections with Semitic even the Sumerian.

I am not saying that Cucuteni didn't play any role. But itcan't explain all farmer like influence IMHO.

 

[LeBrok]

I personally think the assumption Z2103 eastern Yamna samples being descendants of the R1b1* HG because of EHG components is about as ridiculous as modern Spaniards being descendants of the R1b1* Neolithic farmer because of EEF component. There is no way M269, L23, Z2103 all mutated within that short period of time in Volga within a 1-2000 year time frame. We have two R1b1*s scattered in two different sides of the continent in a short amount of time. The R1b1*s were a nomadic bunch with very different autosomal components. The supposed Armenian R1b is also most likely not a descendant of Yamna and upstream of Yamna, making a West Asian origin very much likely. V88 also very much shows R1b was out of Siberia at that point.Cucuteni being originally R1b late neolithic farmers and being Indo-Europianized in EBA is a pretty viable option. Either way anthropologists have to pick whether it was R1a CW that spread PIE language, or R1b BBs that spread PIE, because both of them doing so destroys the Kurgan hypothesis which said PIE was 1 language. If both of them did it, one of them has to be the original IE, and the other Indo-Europeanized.

So you put your bet that Cucuteni were IE speakers but also R1b. Interesting.
The only thing not going for it might be that no R1b was not found in Late Hungarian Neolithic, which was just next door.

 

[LeBrok]

You see - you again impute me something, what I didn't say.
You're really liking discuss with your own thoughts. Amazing.

You yourself gave a possibility, that PIE language was originated in the
culture combined with both: R1a and R1b - so, do you have a problem
whith your own statement, or what? If it was R1a and R1b = R1. Isn't?

I suggest you work on your communication skills. By R1 you implied the times before R1a and R1b existed.

Btw, the earliest findings shaw us, that this two groups were
coexisted millenia before Yamna - doesn't this tell you anything?

They didn't coexist together. We don't have mixed tribes so far. If you aware of one, post it.
This means thousands of years of separation since the split from R1 mother clade. This suggest separate languages, very different languages. Read post 1 again.

Roman Latin replaced all dialects of Latinians and all languages
of Italics, Hochdeutsch replaced many germanic languages and
dialects in Deustchland, Beijings dialect is repalaicing/or allready
replaced many dialects of mandarinian and languages of Han
people - did they changed their identity, nationality, heritage,
kinship because of that or what?

For best comparison, find known situation when farmers' language replaces hunter gatherer one. How many languages English, Spanish and French replaced in America? With handful exceptions, now they all are Christians, speaking farmer language, wearing jeans and watching Hollywood movies.

Why we're still talking about Slavs or even Indoeuropeans in
present day world, if they are since so long ago disconnected
by language, politics, race, religion and culture...? It does not
make any sense in your point... so many thousands of years,
and they cannot understand each other... we shouldn't talk
about this group any more, because it is 5500-9000 years
since PIE became to existance and was devided!!

No idea what is your point here.

 

[Rethel]

I suggest you work on your communication skills.

Le Brok: I wanted to say R1 - and I said this. That's all.

Btw - you try to understand another points of view, because I see clearly, that
you with Angela don't even bother to trying to get, what others people wrote.
You are both like machine repeated always the same idiology often even on
another theme imputing things which someone didn't was saying or denying.
What is it, some kind of nonreligious cult or what?

By R1 you implied the times before R1a and R1b existed.

Even LeBrok if you think so - what this has happen to do with my vote?
I want to vote R1. Cannot have I that wish?

It realy doesn't matter why I want vote like that.

They didn't coexist together.

This we don't know exactly. By coexist I was mean at least neigboring.
There are simples R1b from Kazań-area from about 6-7.000 years, and
we known that about in Smoleńsk-area and in Karelia in similar time (6
to 7.5 thousand y.a.) could be R1a populations. After ca. 2000 years we
have this people in Yamna nearby each other. So, I suspect, that they
were living nearby, and are representatives of the same ethnos, even
if their dialects were diffrent languages or even if they temporarly in the
process changed their language in some differet language-family.

This is my hypothesis.
do you allow me have this one, or it is forbidden?

This means thousands of years of separation since the split from R1 mother clade.
This suggest separate languages, very different languages. Read post 1 again.

And what? Couldnt be this languages from one source in the past?

For best comparison, find known situation when farmers' language replaces hunter gatherer one.

Why? I didn't sugessted that.
But if you wish, there are planty of exaples.
English (farmers) replaced Aboriginal or Indian languages (HG).
Afrikaans (farmers) replaced Khoisan (HG).
Spanish (farmers) replaced many Indians languages (HG).
Russian (farmers) replaced many Uralic and syberian languages (HG)

How many languages English, Spanish and French replaced in America? With handful exceptions, now they all are Christians, speaking farmer language, wearing jeans and watching Hollywood movies.

So why were you asking me

No idea what is your point here.

Try harder
It is really obvious.
And it is closly bind whith your previous statement.

 

[LeBrok]

Le Brok: I wanted to say R1 - and I said this. That's all.

Btw - you try to understand another points of view, because I see clearly, that
you with Angela don't even bother to trying to get, what others people wrote.
You are both like machine repeated always the same idiology often even on
another theme imputing things which someone didn't was saying or denying.
What is it, some kind of nonreligious cult or what?

So it is now mine and Angela's fault and not your perfect English skills?

Even LeBrok if you think so - what this has happen to do with my vote?
I want to vote R1. Cannot have I that wish?

It realy doesn't matter why I want vote like that.

Then create your own world.

This we don't know exactly. By coexist I was mean at least neigboring.
There are simples R1b from Kazań-area from about 6-7.000 years, and
we known that about in Smoleńsk-area and in Karelia in similar time (6
to 7.5 thousand y.a.) could be R1a populations. After ca. 2000 years we
have this people in Yamna nearby each other. So, I suspect, that they
were living nearby, and are representatives of the same ethnos, even
if their dialects were diffrent languages or even if they temporarly in the
process changed their language in some differet language-family.

This is my hypothesis.
do you allow me have this one, or it is forbidden?

Keep it to yourself.

And what? Couldnt be this languages from one source in the past?

All the options are possible at the moment. Think rather what is most likely, most possible, most probable. Use statistical part of your brain.

Why? I didn't sugessted that.
But if you wish, there are planty of exaples.
English (farmers) replaced Aboriginal or Indian languages (HG).
Afrikaans (farmers) replaced Khoisan (HG).
Spanish (farmers) replaced many Indians languages (HG).
Russian (farmers) replaced many Uralic and syberian languages (HG)

Exactly my point. From myriad of smaller languages we have one unifying language (farmer one) covering big area, and not necessarily related to the smaller ones. See the pattern?