Where did proto-IE language start?

[Srbadija]

can also evolve into Sanskrit "as'va".

Hi, hrvclv. Indeed, it can evolve into Sanskrit "as'va" but the real question is did actually Sanskrit "as'va" developed from "h1ekwos" ? For example, it is not 100% sure that all proto-Indo-Europeans spoke literally the same language. So it is not sure that "h1ekwos" was the common word for all ancestral IE languages, perhaps there was some similar-related word. That is what is mistery in the question you raise, but, it could be as you said, but some linguistical problems about PIE are not solved yet, and perhaps, won't ever be, since reconstructions don't give us everything and literally.

 

[hrvclv]

the real question is did actually Sanskrit "as'va" developed from "h1ekwos" ?

Well, there may of course have been various dialects, at any stage in the development of IE languages, before the known major splits just as well as after them. But dialects by definition descend from a common core. So this approach only pushes the problem back in time. I'd say there are a number of things we can have reasonable doubt about, but centuries of reliable academic research have shown that "as'va" is quite regularly descended from "h1ekwos".

There are hundreds of cognates to confirm that. Compare these Latin / Sanskrit cognates :

octo / as'ta ; decem / das'a ; viginti / wims'ati ; ocu(lus) / as'i ; tex(ere) / tas'(ti) ; canis / s'van ; etc...

 

[arvistro]

Yes, BS-II languages underwent Satemization after Celtic and Germanic already left the core area.
Reasons to Satemization are unclear. It is a repeating phenomenon in languages. French had their own Satemization during Middle Ages (if I am not mistaken), such as “century”, where originally k sound became s before i/e just like in Late PIE dialects that gave rise to BS/II.

 

[Srbadija]

Well, there may of course have been various dialects, at any stage in the development of IE languages, before the known major splits just as well as after them. But dialects by definition descend from a common core. So this approach only pushes the problem back in time. I'd say there are a number of things we can have reasonable doubt about, but centuries of reliable academic research have shown that "as'va" is quite regularly descended from "h1ekwos".

There are hundreds of cognates to confirm that. Compare these Latin / Sanskrit cognates :

octo / as'ta ; decem / das'a ; viginti / wims'ati ; ocu(lus) / as'i ; tex(ere) / tas'(ti) ; canis / s'van ; etc...

Well, i don't say your statement is false, but just, that 1 word (example) can't explain us whole situation about proto-IE languages. For example, it is hard to say how R1a languages (Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian) sounded with a certain amount of certitude before Satemization.

 

[Cpluskx]

If PIE doesn't come from South of Caucasus, doesn't it come (ultimately) from Siberia (ANE-EHG)?

 

[CrazyDonkey]

The Dnieper Rapids.

 

[Neander]

There is no common word neither for copper nor for iron. That means it was not spread during copper or iron age. It was spread during neolithic from Anatolia, in Balkans and Danube valley. Danubian neolithic culture based on bull power and 4 wheeled chariot, was civilization which spoke PIE. We must know that barbarian s take the language and culture from civilization and not vice versa. Neolithic was civilization while steppe people were nomads, without civilization, they were barbaric people. They were incorporated into Old Europe just like Visigoths and others were incorporated into Roman Empire, and just like them they were assimilated into the language of the civilization.
Also there was no only one spread. It is against all linguistic evidence, which tells us that every IE language in itself is mixing of 2 or more IE dialects, for example english bull and cow, albanian buall and kau, slavic bivo and goved etc. These are variants PB and KG.
The word for copper varies from one language to another: copper and other derivatives are later dvelopment from name Cyprus which produced it. Bakar in balkans is borrowed from turkish. So we must exclude the two names.
In latin copper was called AES, AERIS
In baltic it is called varš, varis, (latin and baltic, seems a bit simmilar)
In slavic it is called MED, медь, медзь, мідь, miedź
In greek it was called chalkós
In italian it is called rame, just like in albanian rem, although I don't where this word comes from.

Iron on the other hand:
Latin ferrum
baltic dzelzs, geležies (simmilar to slavic, but not others)
Slavic Zhelez, железо, but also GVOZDE, гвожђе
Albanian hekur, from gr. anchyra
greek Sidero
Germanic Eisen,
Celtic iarann (iron), iarainn

So there was no Whole IE spread in the copper or iron age, but it was earlier. Barbaric people from the east were incorporated and assimilated into Old Europe becaming IE, and they spred in diffrent times in all directions.

There are 4 genetic groups linked to IE:
1. R1a were blonde, blue-eyed, blood group B, mtDna U5, satem language, they formed balto-slavic, and indo-iranian families of peoples.
2. R1b were red-haired, freckling, Rh-, some of them Alpine race, in the begining basque language, and the assimilated into IE by civilized neolithic farmers, and today speaking kentum language.
3. Haplogroup I in the north, blonde, blue-eyed, creating germanic family.
4. True IE, neolithic farmers: G, Ev13, J2b, and mtDna H, blood group A, speaking old Centum, from them were created PaleoBalkanic peoples: Greeks, illyrians, thracians, and Anatolians.

 

[Адам. Б. К.]

Indo-European languages began with a non-Indo-European language. Evidence is hidden in the rich polysynthesis of the northwestern Caucasian languages. Such scientists as N.S.Trubetskoy, S.A. Starostin, V.V.Ivanov, J. Colarusso came very close to the solution.The Caucasus is the only territory geographically combining the Kurgan and Anatolian hypotheses together. I am sure that this is not accidental. If not today, then in 50, 100, 500 years, computer simulation methods will prove it. Everything has its time.

 

[Yetos]

There is no common word neither for copper nor for iron. That means it was not spread during copper or iron age. It was spread during neolithic from Anatolia, in Balkans and Danube valley. Danubian neolithic culture based on bull power and 4 wheeled chariot, was civilization which spoke PIE. We must know that barbarian s take the language and culture from civilization and not vice versa. Neolithic was civilization while steppe people were nomads, without civilization, they were barbaric people. They were incorporated into Old Europe just like Visigoths and others were incorporated into Roman Empire, and just like them they were assimilated into the language of the civilization.
Also there was no only one spread. It is against all linguistic evidence, which tells us that every IE language in itself is mixing of 2 or more IE dialects, for example english bull and cow, albanian buall and kau, slavic bivo and goved etc. These are variants PB and KG.
The word for copper varies from one language to another: copper and other derivatives are later dvelopment from name Cyprus which produced it. Bakar in balkans is borrowed from turkish. So we must exclude the two names.
In latin copper was called AES, AERIS
In baltic it is called varš, varis, (latin and baltic, seems a bit simmilar)
In slavic it is called MED, медь, медзь, мідь, miedź
In greek it was called chalkós
In italian it is called rame, just like in albanian rem, although I don't where this word comes from.

Iron on the other hand:
Latin ferrum
baltic dzelzs, geležies (simmilar to slavic, but not others)
Slavic Zhelez, железо, but also GVOZDE, гвожђе
Albanian hekur, from gr. anchyra
greek Sidero
Germanic Eisen,
Celtic iarann (iron), iarainn

So there was no Whole IE spread in the copper or iron age, but it was earlier. Barbaric people from the east were incorporated and assimilated into Old Europe becaming IE, and they spred in diffrent times in all directions.

There are 4 genetic groups linked to IE:
1. R1a were blonde, blue-eyed, blood group B, mtDna U5, satem language, they formed balto-slavic, and indo-iranian families of peoples.
2. R1b were red-haired, freckling, Rh-, some of them Alpine race, in the begining basque language, and the assimilated into IE by civilized neolithic farmers, and today speaking kentum language.
3. Haplogroup I in the north, blonde, blue-eyed, creating germanic family.
4. True IE, neolithic farmers: G, Ev13, J2b, and mtDna H, blood group A, speaking old Centum, from them were created PaleoBalkanic peoples: Greeks, illyrians, thracians, and Anatolians.

 

[Tamakore]

Indo-European languages began with a non-Indo-European language.

I agree with that statement. PIE must have evolved from an earlier non-Indo-European language that belonged to an earlier language family. Even proto-Nostratic (if it existed) began with a non-Nostratic language. The only language that didn't begin with an earlier language is proto-World (again, if it existed). Proto-World must have arisen from a previous form of communication, but if it wasn't fully grammatical (and every existing human language is fully grammatical) then perhaps it shouldn't be called a human language.

I look forward to computer simulation methods proving the origin of PIE, but I hope I don't have to wait 500 years.

 

[hrvat22]

First we start from the facts that now exist.

Sanskrit (English: /ˈsænskrɪt/;^[6] Sanskrit: संस्कृतम्, romanized: saṃskṛtam, IPA: [ˈsɐ̃skr̩tɐm] (listen)) is a language of ancient India with a 3,500-year history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit

R1a Z93, Z94 are people who bring a common (Slavic, Indo-European ) words to India and Sanskrit.

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a_migration_map.jpg

This means that these common Slavic word have been spoken four thousand years ago somewhere in the common homeland(Russian steppes). This is what we know for now based on presented facts.

Who else would bring Croatian or Russian words to India and Sanskrit? These words could only be shared in the same house four thousand years ago, after that part of tribe goes to India part to Europe.

 

[Rlangarrox]

Where did proto IE language start

I hit my bookmark for far future to see if anything new was for sell and all I got was an ad for a violen instructer. Did it go belly up or is it just a web error.

 

[nornosh]

The most exciting theory of them all! could WHG's language were IE then it spread first to Eastern Europe and then R1b tribes were IE-ized when they were living in Balkans around 5000 BC.

 

[MOESAN]

There is no common word neither for copper nor for iron. That means it was not spread during copper or iron age. It was spread during neolithic from Anatolia, in Balkans and Danube valley. Danubian neolithic culture based on bull power and 4 wheeled chariot, was civilization which spoke PIE. We must know that barbarian s take the language and culture from civilization and not vice versa. Neolithic was civilization while steppe people were nomads, without civilization, they were barbaric people. They were incorporated into Old Europe just like Visigoths and others were incorporated into Roman Empire, and just like them they were assimilated into the language of the civilization.
Also there was no only one spread. It is against all linguistic evidence, which tells us that every IE language in itself is mixing of 2 or more IE dialects, for example english bull and cow, albanian buall and kau, slavic bivo and goved etc. These are variants PB and KG.
The word for copper varies from one language to another: copper and other derivatives are later dvelopment from name Cyprus which produced it. Bakar in balkans is borrowed from turkish. So we must exclude the two names.
In latin copper was called AES, AERIS
In baltic it is called varš, varis, (latin and baltic, seems a bit simmilar)
In slavic it is called MED, медь, медзь, мідь, miedź
In greek it was called chalkós
In italian it is called rame, just like in albanian rem, although I don't where this word comes from.
Iron on the other hand:
Latin ferrum
baltic dzelzs, geležies (simmilar to slavic, but not others)
Slavic Zhelez, железо, but also GVOZDE, гвожђе
Albanian hekur, from gr. anchyra
greek Sidero
Germanic Eisen,
Celtic iarann (iron), iarainn
So there was no Whole IE spread in the copper or iron age, but it was earlier. Barbaric people from the east were incorporated and assimilated into Old Europe becaming IE, and they spred in diffrent times in all directions.
There are 4 genetic groups linked to IE:
1. R1a were blonde, blue-eyed, blood group B, mtDna U5, satem language, they formed balto-slavic, and indo-iranian families of peoples.
2. R1b were red-haired, freckling, Rh-, some of them Alpine race, in the begining basque language, and the assimilated into IE by civilized neolithic farmers, and today speaking kentum language.
3. Haplogroup I in the north, blonde, blue-eyed, creating germanic family.
4. True IE, neolithic farmers: G, Ev13, J2b, and mtDna H, blood group A, speaking old Centum, from them were created PaleoBalkanic peoples: Greeks, illyrians, thracians, and Anatolians.

Don't take it as an offense, but I think your grouping in 4 basic groups and their descriptions are like fantasy for me, what has nothing or few to see with the linguistic question. And I think that some IE families are re-grouping of diverse previous linguistic subgroups: mix of family tree and waves, but here I have no pretention to accuracy.

 

[MOESAN]

I think I've been mistaken by the dates: this thread is an old thread, with a false date in the tables. Sorry for blowing on old dust.

 

[Nicu]

One thing that I wonder about is why the Anatolian branch groups of all the IE ones didn't really seem to get any Steppe related ancestry. Some think they were a very early offshoot or even broke off before PIE proper happened. Could it be that before PIE was in the Pontic steppe, they came from further south in the Caucasus, and in this early time, what would become the Anatolian group speakers branched off and went south and west into Anatolia/Asia Minor, while the rest of what would become PIE went north and evolved into Yamnaya and such in the Ukraine/Southern Russia area (this incorporating steppe ancestry and distributing that in some measure to the rest of the later IE groups)?