Modelling Admixture with D-stats

What the hell has Religion got to do with Genetics?
 
These are the type of Jews I see. Orthodox Jews, so I doubt many are admixed.
orthodox-jews-590x393-custom.jpg


Less than a mile from my house is the center for Jews in Chicago. And Chicago has a lot of Jews. They do look very white. Before DNA, I thought they were descended of German and Polish converts. I don't consider them exotic looking at all. Maybe if I saw more of them I'd notice a difference.

I think the most logical explanations are: They have a lot of Southern European admixture and or some West Asians look more similar to Europeans than we think(like Angela was saying).

In my D-stat admixture spreadsheet using ancient West Eurasian outgroups, Ashenazi Jews can fit as 55% Tuscan and 45% Druze. Ashkenazi's relationship to EEF is too weak to simply be converts from Greece or Rome-area. They also clearly have East African admixture, which makes it impossible for them to be South European converts(Not Sicily either, because Sicily has North African admixture not East African). IBD stats would be needed to confirm recent common ancestry with an ethnicity/region in South Europe. I saw IBD stats between Ashkenazi, Italian, and Greek, and it doesn't suggest any recent common ancestry.

Ashkenazi: 55% Tuscany + 45% Druze @ D = 0.0094
Ashkenazi: 55% Greek + 45% Druze @ D = 0.0115
 
Fire Haired14 said:
I thought they were descended of German and Polish converts.
Click to expand...

There were large statistical differences in eye and hair colours between Jews and host populations, though.

For example according to pre-war data from Virchow on pigmentation of Jewish and Christian school-children in four provinces of Germany, among Jews dark-haired school-children were consistently (no matter in which of those four regions) ca. 4 times more common than light-haired ones. By contrast, among Christian school-children, the proportion of dark-haired to light-haired individuals was between 1 to 3 (in Prussia) and around 1 to 1 (in Bavaria and Baden). This data from Virchow does not include children with "intermediate" hair colours (large percentages of both Jewish and Christian children). Anyway, it shows that even the "most brunette" of surveyed Christian groups - Bavarians - were still much blonder than Ashkenazim.

In Poland there were similar differences. According to Polish-Jewish author Henryk Szpidbaum, among Polish Jews only 20,6% had light eyes. Among Polish Christians frequency of light eyes is much higher - I have seen one source saying 68%, another one which says 72,4%. But it also depends on what definitions we are using, because some sources divide eye colours not just into "light" and "dark", but into "light", "intermediate" and "dark" - if we use this system, then in such case % of light eyes in Poland is smaller, ca. 45%, with another ca. 38% being "intermediate" and ca. 17% "dark" eyes.

Anthropologists such as Fishberg, Elkind, Yakowenko and Talko-Hryncewicz also found out, that the frequency of so called "pure brunette types" (defined as people with both dark hair and dark eyes - rather than for example dark hair + light eyes) among regional European Jewish populations ranged from 44 to 76 percent. And frequency of "pure blonds" (people with both light hair and light eyes) among the same groups ranged from 1 percent to 16 percent.
 
Tomenable said:
There were large statistical differences in eye and hair colours between Jews and host populations, though.

For example according to pre-war data from Virchow on pigmentation of Jewish and Christian school-children in four provinces of Germany, among Jews dark-haired school-children were consistently (no matter in which of those four regions) ca. 4 times more common than light-haired ones. By contrast, among Christian school-children, the proportion of light-haired to dark-haired individuals was between 3 to 1 (in Prussia) and around 1 to 1 (in Bavaria and Baden).

In Poland there were similar differences. According to Polish-Jewish author Henryk Szpidbaum, among Polish Jews only 20,59% had light eyes. While among Polish Christians according to various other sources, between 68% and 72,4% have light eyes (by comparison among ethnically English Christians about 74% or more).
Click to expand...

You're right and those stats are consistent with DNA. SNP data says about 70% of Ashkenazi Jews have Dark eyes, while 40% of Germans and Poles do. Ashkenazi Jews also have a lower frequency of SLC2A4, but most still have it unlike West Asians and pre-2500 BC Europeans. Obviously this is because they are mostly SW Asian.

But, still they look much more like Germans than say Palestinians or Syrians. IMO, it's most likely because many SW Asians look more white than we think.
 
You're right and those stats are consistent with DNA. SNP data says about 70% of Ashkenazi Jews have Dark eyes, while 40% of Germans and Poles do.
Click to expand...

Good to know that there is consistency in this case, between observed traits and actual DNA.
IMO, it's most likely because many SW Asians look more white than we think.
Click to expand...
I have noticed that there is a considerable variation of skin colour among Syrians. Even among Palestinians too.

Many Syrians (and much fewer Palestinians, but still) actually have light skin by European standards.

But most are brown-skinned (especially when it comes to Palestinians).
 
BTW, do we have pigmentation SNPs from that Roman-era gladiator/soldier of Middle Eastern origin from York?

I think the most logical explanations are: They have a lot of Southern European admixture and or some West Asians look more similar to Europeans than we think (like Angela was saying).
Click to expand...
In my D-stat admixture spreadsheet using ancient West Eurasian outgroups, Ashenazi Jews can fit as 55% Tuscan and 45% Druze. Ashkenazi's relationship to EEF is too weak to simply be converts from Greece or Rome-area. They also clearly have East African admixture, which makes it impossible for them to be South European converts(Not Sicily either, because Sicily has North African admixture not East African). IBD stats would be needed to confirm recent common ancestry with an ethnicity/region in South Europe. I saw IBD stats between Ashkenazi, Italian, and Greek, and it doesn't suggest any recent common ancestry.
Click to expand...
I guess they are really descended mostly from those Ancient Jews/Israelites of the Roman province of Palestine.

As their tradition claims: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUlM2a2tsOM
 
Tomenable said:

Gross had a hypothesis, that mostly "Aryan-looking" Jews survived the Holocaust (they had a greater chance to pass as Non-Jews). However, the vast majority of Jewish-Americans descend from Eastern & Central European Jews who emigrated to America between 1800 and 1939, before the Holocaust. So this hypothesis is baseless, at least as far as American Jews are concerned.

Check this thread - Eran Elhaik (who used to be a supporter of the so called Khazar hypothesis), now has a new theory, about Eastern Anatolian origins of Ashkenazi Jews: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32082-Guess-the-ethnicity-of-this-lady?p=476359#post476359

Proposed homeland:

Aszkenaz.jpg


According to a Polish Jew, Henryk Szpidbaum, the most common phenotype among Polish Jews was Armenoid (or Hither Asiatic or Anatolid). This hypothetical Eastern Anatolian homeland corresponds well to prevalence of Armenoid phenotype.

But Armenoid / Anatolid / Hither Asiatic phenotype is common in all of West Asia, not just in Eastern Anatolia.

A population of Ancient Levantine origin could also have a high percentage of this phenotype.

========================

As for light skin of Ashkenazi Jews:

Maybe in Ancient times, before Arabic expansion and Muslim Sub-Saharan slave trade, Middle Easterners were "whiter"? Some Non-Muslim populations of the Middle East still tend to be light, even if they never moved out of the region (e.g. Samaritans).

Or, alternatively, it could be that Ancient Jews had swarthy skin pigmentation until relatively late in time, but after that the same selective sweep favouring light skin tone made them light, which had made everybody else in Europe white before.
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That map is where 15-20% of T1 Ydna is , yet you show zero % .........why is that?
 
Fire Haired14 said:
These results are so accurate it's scary. I didn't manipulate the data :). Modelling Europeans as Yamnaya+HungaryNeolithic+CHG+WHG.

South EuropeEN_HungaryYamnayaWHGCHG@ D
Sardinian89%1%6%4%0.0045
Tuscan71%21%2%6%0.0056
Bulgarian62%30%2%6%0.0055
BasqueSpain61%18%18%3%0.002
WestSicily77%12%0%11%0.0148
North EuropeEN_HungaryYamnayaWHGCHG@ D
Lithuanian36%44%20%0%0.0031
BeloRussian43%44%13%0%0.0064
Cornwall_England45%44%11%0%0.002
Hungarian53%39%8%0%0.0056
French56%34%9%1%0.0033
Ancient EuropeEN_HungaryYamnayaWHGCHG@ D
Spain_MN76%0%24%0%0.0157
Sintashta36%55%5%4%0.0075
HungaryBA46%28%22%4%0.0049
Click to expand...

Hmmm, what will happen if you use Anatolia Neolithic instead of Hungary Neolithic?

I guess percent of WHG will increase (sicne EN_Hungary were more WHG admixed).
 
Tomenable said:
Now this can be considered a large and representative sample:

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This crowd picture where we can't even see the faces clearly, and of the minority of Hasidic Jews to boot is supposed to tell us what exactly?
 
Tomenable said:
A ridiculous video on how Jewish people supposedly look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Reh8GPFLG64

But before clicking the link above, watch this video below:

Click to expand...

If it's so ridiculous and no doubt anti-Semitic, why give it publicity? I think I'll pass.

As to your second video this is no surprise. The American Civil Liberties Union is a bastion of liberalism. Many of its members are American Jews. They have often defended the free speech rights of bigots of one variety or another, including anti-Jewish bigots.

In one famous case, some of these morons wanted a permit to march down the streets of Skokie, Illinois, which not coincidentally was heavily Jewish, with a lot of Holocaust survivors living there. The ACLU went to court to argue they should get the permit. They did.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Party_of_America_v._Village_of_Skokie

That's government action, though, like the government rulings that a monstrous group of Christian extremists, known as the Westboro Baptist Church, who wants to picket at the funerals of dead military personnel, can picket, but they have to stay well away from the funeral home and the people attending. Just so you get the full picture, they hate Catholics as well as Jews and gays.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church

Both of these organizations are tiny groups of total losers, despised by everyone, right, left, and center. America isn't Europe, where in certain countries there's tolerance for this garbage.

Youtube is not a government or the state. Someone should explain to this girl that the first amendment in the U.S. only prohibits the "government" from interfering with people's free speech rights. I guess she either hasn't yet taken or slept through constitutional law. If I don't want some bigot in my house I can kick him out. If youtube doesn't want bigots, or people advocating the murder of Jews, or people inciting other people to riot, or people explaining how to build bombs, or jihadis recruiting on their site, they have, in my opinion, a perfect right to make that decision.
 
We have a lot of new genomes from the Middle East now (Lazaridis 2016 paper about farmers etc.). What happens if we model Ashkenazi Jews as a mixture of Bronze Age Levant + Europeans? Samples from Bronze Age Levant are for example I1705, I1706 and I1730. After all, Jewish ancient ancestors were Iron Age Hebrews, and it is believed that Hebrews descended from Bronze Age Canaanites, who had lived in the Levant. Some scholars also believe that Hebrews were new immigrants to the region, who replaced Canaanites. But we don't have Iron Age samples yet, so let's examine BA_Levant.
 
Tomenable said:
We have a lot of new genomes from the Middle East now (Lazaridis 2016 paper about farmers etc.). What happens if we model Ashkenazi Jews as a mixture of Bronze Age Levant + Europeans? Samples from Bronze Age Levant are for example I1705, I1706 and I1730. After all, Jewish ancient ancestors were Iron Age Hebrews, and it is believed that Hebrews descended from Bronze Age Canaanites, who had lived in the Levant. Some scholars also believe that Hebrews were new immigrants to the region, who replaced Canaanites. But we don't have Iron Age samples yet, so let's examine BA_Levant.
Click to expand...

What are you trying to say?

The history of Judaism spans more than 3,000 years.[14]

so it is late bronze-age
It developed in southern Levant .............so ,........ some of these Jews became Gentiles in the late iron-age i.e. Christ who married Mary a Phoenician Priestess of what was a "pagan" religion.

I do not know why you want to mix bronze-age markers with european , which European, modern ones?

BTW, I do not believe any Pagans ever existed...........for another thread.
 
Sile,

It is believed that Ashkenazi Jews have some European admixture - so I want to see how much. That's why I asked to model them as a mix of Bronze Age Levantines + Europeans, to see what % of their ancestry is from BA_Levant and what % from Europe. Are you claiming that they are 100% BA Levantines with no any Euro admixture?
 
A) I love discussing jewish genetics!

B) given that european jews don't have any whg ancestry to start with, this in my mind eliminates any theory regarding them as a mixture of the original diasporics plus north euro. The Polish and the Germans have tons of whg ancestry. If they originally plotted with Lebanese and other levantines and mixed with south italians and sicillians, they would plot far south of sicillians as opposed to along side of them (they would be half sicilian half Levant in most calculators instead of half north italian half Levant). They would also show a lot more ibd with South Italy than they do in reality. I can only logically conclude without evidence (I'll admit) that the Middle East was a bit more south euro like. I may be wrong bc I'm a big time amateur.
 
Tomenable said:
We have a lot of new genomes from the Middle East now (Lazaridis 2016 paper about farmers etc.). What happens if we model Ashkenazi Jews as a mixture of Bronze Age Levant + Europeans? Samples from Bronze Age Levant are for example I1705, I1706 and I1730. After all, Jewish ancient ancestors were Iron Age Hebrews, and it is believed that Hebrews descended from Bronze Age Canaanites, who had lived in the Levant. Some scholars also believe that Hebrews were new immigrants to the region, who replaced Canaanites. But we don't have Iron Age samples yet, so let's examine BA_Levant.
Click to expand...

Here are some results for Ashkenazi_Jews compared to Druze.

First of all I have to show that Ashkenazi_Jews behave like European-shifted Druze in these states. So anything ancient Middle Eastern Druze have, Ashkenazi Jews have the same but less of it.

"distance%=0.3247 / distance=0.003247"

Ashkenazi_Jew
"Druze" 61.55
"Anatolia_Neolithic" 22.45
"Yamnaya_Samara" 9.6
"Loschbour" 3.9
"Nganasan" 2.5
"Satsurblia" 0
"Jordan_EBA" 0
"Iran_Neolithic" 0
"Yoruba" 0
"India_South" 0
"Ulchi" 0
"Levant_Neolithic" 0

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My conclusions are Ashkenazi Jews and Druze are mostly LevantN/AnatoliaN-like with minor CHG ancestry(~10%), maybe some South Asian, and for Ashkenazi Jews significant European ancestry(comes out as Yamnaya, Loschbour, and inflated AnatoliaN). Their CHG ancestry probably arrived in Levant via people with lots of LevantN/AnatoliaN ancestry, so in total they might be 50%+ ancient Iran/Northern West Asia.

"distance%=0.7723 / distance=0.007723"
Ashkenazi_Jew
"Belarusian" 34.8
"Iran_Chalcolithic" 28.75
"Anatolia_Neolithic" 20.15
"Levant_Neolithic" 13.85
"Ulchi" 2.05
"India_South" 0.4
"Satsurblia" 0
"Iran_Neolithic" 0
"Yoruba" 0
"Nganasan" 0

"distance%=1.3645 / distance=0.013645"


Druze
"Iran_Chalcolithic" 50.8
"Belarusian" 16.85
"Anatolia_Neolithic" 15.45
"Levant_Neolithic" 13.8
"India_South" 3.1
"Satsurblia" 0
"Iran_Neolithic" 0
"Yoruba" 0
"Ulchi" 0
"Nganasan" 0


"distance%=1.0614 / distance=0.010614"


Ashkenazi_Jew
"Anatolia_Neolithic" 40.85
"Iran_Chalcolithic" 30.7
"Yamnaya_Samara" 15
"Levant_Neolithic" 4.6
"Loschbour" 3.9
"Nganasan" 2.5
"India_South" 2
"Ulchi" 0.45
"Satsurblia" 0
"Iran_Neolithic" 0
"Yoruba" 0

"distance%=1.4836 / distance=0.014836"


Druze
"Iran_Chalcolithic" 48.8
"Anatolia_Neolithic" 28.8
"Yamnaya_Samara" 8.95
"Levant_Neolithic" 8.45
"India_South" 4.8
"Ulchi" 0.1
"Loschbour" 0.1
"Satsurblia" 0
"Iran_Neolithic" 0
"Yoruba" 0
"Nganasan" 0


For Ashkenazi Jews they always choice Anatolia_N as their Western ancestor instead of Levant_N and Jordan_EBA, so when I only use Jordan_EBA as the Western ancestor this is the result.

"Anatolia_Neolithic" 41.75
"Jordan_EBA" 26.3
"Satsurblia" 16.1
"India_South" 7.95
"Yamnaya_Samara" 6.3
"Nganasan" 1.6
"Iran_Neolithic" 0
"Yoruba" 0
"Ulchi" 0
"Loschbour" 0
"Levant_Neolithic" 0


When I do the same with Levant_N.

"distance%=1.9845 / distance=0.019845"




Ashkenazi_Jew
"Iran_Chalcolithic" 50.9
"Levant_Neolithic" 20.2
"Yamnaya_Samara" 20.05
"Loschbour" 8.1
"Nganasan" 0.75
"Satsurblia" 0
"Iran_Neolithic" 0
"Yoruba" 0
"India_South" 0
"Ulchi" 0

When i do the same with Druze.

"distance%=1.8875 / distance=0.018875"




Druze
"Iran_Chalcolithic" 59.7
"Jordan_EBA" 27.6
"Yamnaya_Samara" 8.45
"Loschbour" 3.95
"Nganasan" 0.3
"Satsurblia" 0
"Iran_Neolithic" 0
"Yoruba" 0
"India_South" 0
"Ulchi" 0

When I take out Iran_Chl, which has lots of EEF/LevantN-like stuff.

"distance%=1.7206 / distance=0.017206"
Druze
"Anatolia_Neolithic" 41.75
"Jordan_EBA" 26.3
"Satsurblia" 16.1
"India_South" 7.95
"Yamnaya_Samara" 6.3
"Nganasan" 1.6
"Iran_Neolithic" 0
"Yoruba" 0
"Ulchi" 0
"Loschbour" 0
"Levant_Neolithic" 0


"distance%=1.8619 / distance=0.018619"


Druze
"Iran_Chalcolithic" 65.2
"Levant_Neolithic" 19.65
"Yamnaya_Samara" 11.9
"Loschbour" 3.15
"Ulchi" 0.1
"Satsurblia" 0
"Iran_Neolithic" 0
"Yoruba" 0
"India_South" 0
"Nganasan" 0



"distance%=1.1793 / distance=0.011793"




Ashkenazi_Jew
"Anatolia_Neolithic" 50.15
"Yamnaya_Samara" 15.6
"Jordan_EBA" 14.6
"Satsurblia" 9.35
"India_South" 4.4
"Nganasan" 3.6
"Loschbour" 2.3
"Iran_Neolithic" 0
"Yoruba" 0
"Ulchi" 0
"Levant_Neolithic" 0
 
davef said:
A) I love discussing jewish genetics!

B) given that european jews don't have any whg ancestry to start with, this in my mind eliminates any theory regarding them as a mixture of the original diasporics plus north euro. The Polish and the Germans have tons of whg ancestry. If they originally plotted with Lebanese and other levantines and mixed with south italians and sicillians, they would plot far south of sicillians as opposed to along side of them (they would be half sicilian half Levant in most calculators instead of half north italian half Levant). They would also show a lot more ibd with South Italy than they do in reality. I can only logically conclude without evidence (I'll admit) that the Middle East was a bit more south euro like. I may be wrong bc I'm a big time amateur.
Click to expand...

As you can see from the data posted by Fire-Haired, they can indeed be modeled with WHG.

Also, Behar et al 2013 has already shown that there is IBD sharing between Ashkenazim and Poles.

See:
https://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1040&context=humbiol_preprints

"The greatest level of sharingwas observed with Sephardi Jews, considerably greater than with other populations. Substantialsharing with Eastern Europeans was also observed, though at a much lower level."

Numerous older papers found the same thing, but the citations are in the Behar paper

Dienekes also did a fast IBD sharing analysis for various Jewish groups:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/08/fastibd-analysis-of-several-jewish-and.html

Ashkenazi_D.png
http://s12.postimg.org/omaza8osr/Jewish_Diaspora.png

The entire topic is discussed here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28560-Jewish-people-where-they-are-from
 
He did a nice job! Yes I read the thread before I even signed up here and its pretty interesting but is the "whg" in jews actual whg from a northern euro population or is it something that resembles it? What gets to me is that in the lazaridis study mentioned in that thread, jews have absolutely none of it, yet they supposedly mixed with Polish who have a ton of it? And the ibd with Poles could be from jews to poles and not vice versa, according to that thread. I'm not quite convinced that jews have actual ancestry from north or Eastern Europe but I'm open to any counter argument.
 
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