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Thread: Early Medieval Slavic DNA (years 600-900 AD)

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    Early Medieval Slavic DNA (years 600-900 AD)

    From Eurogenes:

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/0...m-bohemia.html

    "Two Bohemian Bell Beaker genomes from Allentoft et al. 2015 - RISE568 and RISE569 - are labeled as early Czech Slavs in the new Mathieson et al. 2017 preprint (see rows 148 and 149 in the spreadsheet here).

    Obviously these samples were initially wrongly dated to the Bronze Age and misidentified. They really date to 600-900 CE and 660-770 calCE, respectively. It's an unfortunate mistake, but also an interesting situation, because they've been analyzed in great detail in several papers and on this blog, and no one suspected that anything was wrong.

    So the fact that these two Medieval Slavs from East Central Europe passed so convincingly for eastern Bell Beakers is a hint of very strong genetic continuity in the region since the Bronze Age. Indeed, they're very similar to present-day Czechs, western Poles (from Poznan), and eastern Germans, except perhaps with lower excess Western Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) ancestry and higher Yamnaya-related ancestry.

    This is where RISE569, the higher coverage of the two genomes, clusters in my Principal Component Analysis (PCA) of West Eurasian populations:



    Unfortunately, both are females, so there's no Y-DNA data. But I suspect that if there was, we'd probably know something was wrong, because their Y-chromosome haplogroups may have turned out to be relatively young Slavic-specific subclades of R1a-M548 and/or R1a-Z280."

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    Great find. What are their GedMatch kit numbers?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post

    So the fact that these two Medieval Slavs from East Central Europe passed so convincingly for eastern Bell Beakers is a hint of very strong genetic continuity in the region since the Bronze Age. Indeed, they're very similar to present-day Czechs, western Poles (from Poznan), and eastern Germans, except perhaps with lower excess Western Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) ancestry and higher Yamnaya-related ancestry.
    ."
    Half a Europe passed convincingly as Bell Beakers, because it was a cultural phenomenon over huge area, and not one genetically coherent group. Having said that, these showen BB are mostly from Northern Europe (Not Spain) and are already mixed with EEF farmers the most of all the Steppe invaders. As much as today's Northern Europeans or Medieval Slavs for that matter. On other hand CW and Unetice cultures were different from Medieval Slavs, or today's Poles and Czechs, who have more EEF, Hungarian BA and Caucasian.
    Last edited by LeBrok; 20-05-17 at 21:52.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    From Eurogenes:

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/0...m-bohemia.html

    "Two Bohemian Bell Beaker genomes from Allentoft et al. 2015 - RISE568 and RISE569 - are labeled as early Czech Slavs in the new Mathieson et al. 2017 preprint (see rows 148 and 149 in the spreadsheet here).

    Obviously these samples were initially wrongly dated to the Bronze Age and misidentified. They really date to 600-900 CE and 660-770 calCE, respectively. It's an unfortunate mistake, but also an interesting situation, because they've been analyzed in great detail in several papers and on this blog, and no one suspected that anything was wrong.

    So the fact that these two Medieval Slavs from East Central Europe passed so convincingly for eastern Bell Beakers is a hint of very strong genetic continuity in the region since the Bronze Age. Indeed, they're very similar to present-day Czechs, western Poles (from Poznan), and eastern Germans, except perhaps with lower excess Western Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) ancestry and higher Yamnaya-related ancestry.

    This is where RISE569, the higher coverage of the two genomes, clusters in my Principal Component Analysis (PCA) of West Eurasian populations:



    Unfortunately, both are females, so there's no Y-DNA data. But I suspect that if there was, we'd probably know something was wrong, because their Y-chromosome haplogroups may have turned out to be relatively young Slavic-specific subclades of R1a-M548 and/or R1a-Z280."
    And what he admitted is that he cannot separate a person that became a slav via learning the slav language or an ethnic slav , clearly these czechs cannot be ethnic slavs in this point in history.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post

    "
    Interesting how progressively, with every new culture and few hundred years passing by, Yamnaya genome moves constantly and unidirectionally South, towards European Late Neolithic Farmers, and a little bit towards WHG. Yamnaya->CW->Unetice->BB (I'm sure, only Northern BB). I think in case of NW Europe there were enough local farmers to do instant trick turning CW into BB. However in case of Eastern Europe (like Poland and Czechs) I'm expecting some farmer migration from BA Hungary (or alike) pulling genetics towards EEF and BA Hungary.

    Hungarian Bronze is very interesting, and too bad bronze and iron age of South Europe is missing. This is where we start seeing the Caucasian/Anatolian Chalcolithic coming in effect. Hungarian BA is stretched toward today's Near East, and Anatolia, but also BA Jordan, but not as much yet as today's Balkans. The right time and the confirmation, as some of us could see the Caucasian influence over SE Europe in BA samples.
    It is also stretched towards WHG, on the other end. What was the fresh source of it?

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    I found those Czechs, Rise577 (F999951) looks exactly like Nordic/German Late Neolithic - Rise71. When farmers where already heavily mixed with first wave from Steppe. I don't think it is Slavic, more like Slavicized local, if anything.
    Rise569 (F999954) is very close to my genome, Polish genome. I wish I had modern Czech gedmatch run to compare. This could be Slavic.

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    RISE569 is kit F999954. RISE568 is not on GEDmatch yet, but I will upload it.

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    RISE569, Early Czech Slav (660-700 AD). Eurogenes K13:

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Baltic 41.29
    2 North_Atlantic 38.59
    3 West_Med 16.76
    4 West_Asian 3.36

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 East_German 10.43
    2 South_Polish 10.59
    3 Southwest_Finnish 10.64
    4 Polish 10.66
    5 North_Swedish 11.56
    6 Ukrainian 12.01
    7 Ukrainian_Lviv 12.35
    8 Austrian 13.07
    9 Estonian 13.82
    10 Russian_Smolensk 13.97
    11 Estonian_Polish 14.31
    12 Hungarian 14.37
    13 Belorussian 14.39
    14 Croatian 14.39
    15 Swedish 14.45
    16 Finnish 14.84
    17 Southwest_Russian 15.87
    18 Ukrainian_Belgorod 16.25
    19 North_German 16.36
    20 Lithuanian 16.62

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 69.9% Lithuanian + 30.1% French_Basque @ 3.68
    2 74.3% Estonian + 25.7% French_Basque @ 4.62
    3 69.2% Estonian + 30.8% Southwest_French @ 5.77
    4 80.8% Polish + 19.2% French_Basque @ 5.93
    5 74.1% Belorussian + 25.9% French_Basque @ 5.99
    6 64.6% Lithuanian + 35.4% Southwest_French @ 6.13
    7 74.9% Russian_Smolensk + 25.1% French_Basque @ 6.2
    8 56.4% Lithuanian + 43.6% Southwest_English @ 6.2
    9 74.3% Estonian_Polish + 25.7% French_Basque @ 6.25
    10 70.7% Estonian + 29.3% Spanish_Cantabria @ 6.29
    11 73% Estonian + 27% Spanish_Aragon @ 6.51
    12 70.1% Polish + 29.9% Southwest_English @ 6.52
    13 66% Lithuanian + 34% Spanish_Cantabria @ 6.78
    14 55% Lithuanian + 45% Southeast_English @ 6.79
    15 61% Estonian_Polish + 39% Southwest_English @ 6.81
    16 68.6% Polish + 31.4% Orcadian @ 6.82
    17 72.4% Estonian + 27.6% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 6.85
    18 68.5% Lithuanian + 31.5% Spanish_Aragon @ 6.85
    19 70.8% Polish + 29.2% West_Scottish @ 6.86
    20 69.7% Polish + 30.3% Irish @ 6.86

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    It still has more of "Baltic" than of "North_Atlantic", so this sample doesn't really look Celtic.

    I think that Davidski is wrong when claiming that it shows continuity since the Bronze Age.

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    Here is the other individual (RISE568), also from Brandysek.

    RISE568 Early Czech Slav (600-900 AD). Eurogenes K13:

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Baltic 53.69
    2 North_Atlantic 31.67
    3 West_Med 11.82
    4 East_Med 2.82

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Lithuanian 6.33
    2 Belorussian 7.23
    3 Estonian_Polish 7.33
    4 Estonian 7.39
    5 Russian_Smolensk 8.34
    6 Polish 9.03
    7 Southwest_Russian 10.88
    8 Ukrainian 11.41
    9 Finnish 11.51
    10 Ukrainian_Belgorod 11.71
    11 East_Finnish 12.13
    12 South_Polish 12.26
    13 Kargopol_Russian 12.32
    14 Southwest_Finnish 13
    15 Ukrainian_Lviv 13.17
    16 Erzya 14.78
    17 Croatian 18.6
    18 La_Brana-1 19.4
    19 North_Swedish 20.01
    20 East_German 20.81

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 93.7% Lithuanian + 6.3% French_Basque @ 5.36
    2 92.7% Lithuanian + 7.3% Southwest_French @ 5.46
    3 95.2% Lithuanian + 4.8% Sardinian @ 5.53
    4 93.8% Lithuanian + 6.2% Spanish_Aragon @ 5.58
    5 93.3% Lithuanian + 6.7% Spanish_Cantabria @ 5.58
    6 93.7% Lithuanian + 6.3% Spanish_Valencia @ 5.65
    7 94% Lithuanian + 6% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 5.69
    8 93.6% Lithuanian + 6.4% Spanish_Cataluna @ 5.7
    9 93.8% Lithuanian + 6.2% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 5.7
    10 93.8% Lithuanian + 6.2% Spanish_Galicia @ 5.75
    11 94.4% Lithuanian + 5.6% Spanish_Andalucia @ 5.75
    12 94.2% Lithuanian + 5.8% Spanish_Murcia @ 5.75
    13 94% Lithuanian + 6% Portuguese @ 5.78
    14 94.4% Lithuanian + 5.6% Spanish_Extremadura @ 5.8
    15 93.3% Lithuanian + 6.7% Southwest_English @ 5.87
    16 93% Lithuanian + 7% Southeast_English @ 5.87
    17 93.6% Lithuanian + 6.4% French @ 5.87
    18 90% Lithuanian + 10% East_German @ 5.93
    19 93.3% Lithuanian + 6.7% South_Dutch @ 5.94
    20 93.4% Lithuanian + 6.6% Orcadian @ 5.95

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    In case if you have doubts - this is how these samples are described:

    See rows 148 and 149: http://biorxiv.org/highwire/filestre.../135616-2.xlsx

    http://i.imgur.com/STnF3Zk.png



    They are listed here as well: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/medievaldna.shtml

    And you can download their genomes on your own if you want, here:

    RISE569:

    https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...WY2YURRQmtVcjQ

    RISE568:

    https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...zdnWkZqY3Y5UUE

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    From the Comments section:


    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/0...m-bohemia.html


    Szkx said...
    Here is a PCA based on Eurogenes K15 results with merged northeastern and northwestern components with my 28 Czech samples from GEDMatch plus some Slovaks and Rusyns. Not very scientific, but informative enough. Note RISE577, Czech sample from Unetice culture and RISE569, Czech Slav.
    http://jpeg.cz/images/2017/05/19/NPeg5.png

    RISE577 = Unetice culture Czech Rep.
    RISE569 = Early Slavic Czech Rep.


    http://i.imgur.com/xasWt29.png



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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    From the Comments section:


    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/0...m-bohemia.html





    RISE577 = Unetice culture Czech Rep.
    RISE569 = Early Slavic Czech Rep.


    http://i.imgur.com/xasWt29.png


    His results resemble mine and it's why we cluster together ( me as the Slovak American) I am most definitely a mixed Slav and I guess he is too, that's what it most likely seems like any ways. He's far too Baltic to be Celtic and saying he is Germanic.. I don't know, he looks like a slav mix, his Baltic is quite high.

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    K36 genetic similarity of RISE568 to modern populations:

    http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm

    Last edited by Tomenable; 07-06-17 at 12:15.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    K36 genetic similarity of RISE569 to modern populations:



    RISE569 according to DNA.Land:

    50% North Slavic
    41% Northwest Euro
    3.6% Balkan
    1.9% South/Central Euro
    2.4% Sardinian
    1% Ambiguous


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    K36 genetic similarity of RISE568 to modern populations:

    http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm



    Map of archaeological cultures of Barbaricum in 415 AD:



    Both maps mentioned above merged:

    you claiming west-balts as slavs? ...............west-balts are a mix of finns and swedes

    east-balts are a mix of estonians and finns

    slavs are a mix or north-ukraines and belarus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    It still has more of "Baltic" than of "North_Atlantic", so this sample doesn't really look Celtic.

    I think that Davidski is wrong when claiming that it shows continuity since the Bronze Age.
    I think he is closer to Swedes, so in fact is more Germanic than Celtic. This would be more consistent with historical facts that there were Celts (Boii and others), than mixed with or replaced by Germanics (Marcomanni, Lombards, Thuringii, Vandals and others) and then West Slavs, who probably mixed with local peoples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syky View Post
    I think he is closer to Swedes
    But Northern Swedes? They have higher "Baltic" due to being mixed with Finns / Saami.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syky View Post
    I think he is closer to Swedes, so in fact is more Germanic than Celtic. This would be more consistent with historical facts that there were Celts (Boii and others), than mixed with or replaced by Germanics (Marcomanni, Lombards, Thuringii, Vandals and others) and then West Slavs, who probably mixed with local peoples.
    I did K36 nMonte for RISE569, with ancient and modern samples. Here are the results:

    1) With modern populations (322 populations included):

    RISE569

    Poland_North 47.55
    Dutch_Frisian 35.50
    GR_Thrace 6.55
    Albania_South 6.35
    South_Holland 2.50
    Poland_Sudovia 0.70
    Kosovo 0.60
    Holland 0.20
    IT_Marche 0.05

    (...)

    2) With ancient samples (23 ancient samples included):

    RISE569

    RISE586 (Czech Unetice) 39.30
    PLN17 (Iwno or Trzciniec) 29.40
    RISE568 (Early Slavic Czech) 12.85
    BR1 (Bronze Age Hungary) 8.85
    RISE374 (Bronze Age Hungary) 7.85
    IR1 (Iron Age Hungary) 1.75

    RISE598 0.00
    RISE150 0.00
    RISE577 0.00
    RISE154 0.00
    RISE174 0.00
    RISE276 0.00
    I0803 0.00
    I0099 0.00
    I0247 0.00
    I1955 0.00
    BR2 0.00
    RISE373 0.00
    RISE397 0.00
    RISE412 0.00
    I0047 0.00
    I0116 0.00
    I0164 0.00

    So RISE569 seems like a mix between Celto-Germanic and Balto-Slavic. Bronze Age (BR1 & BR2) / Iron Age (IR1) Hungary was likely something ancestral to Slavs. For example here is what modern Polish regional averages get in this ancient nMonte (the same samples included in comparison, except for RISE568):

    RISE598 = Late Bronze Age Sudovia
    BR2 = Bronze Age Hungary
    IR1 = Iron Age Hungary
    RISE150 = Polish Unetice
    I0116 = East German Unetice
    RISE174 = Iron Age Sweden
    PLN17 = Iwno or Trzciniec
    I0247 = Iron Age Scythian


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    But Northern Swedes? They have higher "Baltic" due to being mixed with Finns / Saami.



    I did K36 nMonte for RISE569, with ancient and modern samples. Here are the results:

    1) With modern populations (322 populations included):

    RISE569

    Poland_North 47.55
    Dutch_Frisian 35.50
    GR_Thrace 6.55
    Albania_South 6.35
    South_Holland 2.50
    Poland_Sudovia 0.70
    Kosovo 0.60
    Holland 0.20
    IT_Marche 0.05

    (...)

    2) With ancient samples (23 ancient samples included):

    RISE569

    RISE586 (Czech Unetice) 39.30
    PLN17 (Iwno or Trzciniec) 29.40
    RISE568 (Early Slavic Czech) 12.85
    BR1 (Bronze Age Hungary) 8.85
    RISE374 (Bronze Age Hungary) 7.85
    IR1 (Iron Age Hungary) 1.75

    RISE598 0.00
    RISE150 0.00
    RISE577 0.00
    RISE154 0.00
    RISE174 0.00
    RISE276 0.00
    I0803 0.00
    I0099 0.00
    I0247 0.00
    I1955 0.00
    BR2 0.00
    RISE373 0.00
    RISE397 0.00
    RISE412 0.00
    I0047 0.00
    I0116 0.00
    I0164 0.00

    So RISE569 seems like a mix between Celto-Germanic and Balto-Slavic. Bronze Age (BR1 & BR2) / Iron Age (IR1) Hungary was likely something ancestral to Slavs. For example here is what modern Polish regional averages get in this ancient nMonte (the same samples included in comparison, except for RISE568):

    RISE598 = Late Bronze Age Sudovia
    BR2 = Bronze Age Hungary
    IR1 = Iron Age Hungary
    RISE150 = Polish Unetice
    I0116 = East German Unetice
    RISE174 = Iron Age Sweden
    PLN17 = Iwno or Trzciniec
    I0247 = Iron Age Scythian

    Wow, very good work. Here is K13 PCA with new Slovak and Hungarian samples, only Northern Europeans. I think it is better than K15.

  20. #20
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    Ancient Polish samples are already published as well !!!

    Analysis of Iron Age and Medieval Polish genomes:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post252846

    PCA with two Iron Age and one Medieval samples:

    http://i.imgur.com/Kwmjsds.png

    I would like to see RISE568 & Niemcza in one PCA graph:


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    Polish Niemcza sample is very similar to Czech RISE568, I think:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...978#post512978

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    Cool!! Watch that and inform us, I have not enough time.

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    "Archaeology of Early Medieval Poland" by Andrzej Buko (English edition):

    https://brego-weard.com/lib/ns/The_A...and_Discov.pdf

    https://books.google.pl/books?id=i6A...%20981&f=false

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    interesting

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    Quote Originally Posted by srdceleva View Post
    His results resemble mine and it's why we cluster together ( me as the Slovak American) I am most definitely a mixed Slav and I guess he is too, that's what it most likely seems like any ways. He's far too Baltic to be Celtic and saying he is Germanic.. I don't know, he looks like a slav mix, his Baltic is quite high.
    How does one add themselves to this map?

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