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Maybe E-V13 was not as dominant as J2b but it probably existed. If it has already been found in Neolithic.
EDIT: Sorry Trojet, back on track. The same can be said for other threads too though.
Aspurg
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I26726 J-Z1297 should be by all accounts another Posušje culture find. This site in MBA belonged to Posušje culture, in EBA it belonged to Cetina culture and in CA/EBA to the Adriatic variant of Ljubljana culture.
So obviously this culture was the hub of early J-L283 expansion.
But considering the fact that Z1297 mutation most likely occurred in Dalmatia, Y21045 and Z1297 could have had some different migratory paths in their southwards expansion independent of each other. Also they could have been part of the same wave.
So obviously this culture was the hub of early J-L283 expansion.
But considering the fact that Z1297 mutation most likely occurred in Dalmatia, Y21045 and Z1297 could have had some different migratory paths in their southwards expansion independent of each other. Also they could have been part of the same wave.
Papayaseeds
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My brother Trojet thank you so much for all the work,that is a badass map. These newa are a great gift for us J-L283, it is unbelievable how all of sudden we have this many more Illyrians in the records. Cant wait to see Hunter Provijn talking about that, the man is gonna be on the top of the world.
I could not be happier with my haplo a very interesting one that is.You guys are amazing, this thread is like a whole new level of cooperation and productivity.
I could not be happier with my haplo a very interesting one that is.You guys are amazing, this thread is like a whole new level of cooperation and productivity.
kingdavid
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yes from non- e-v13 in italy
many of the e-m34 fall on e-fgc18401 ( afcorse others also on e-pf6751 branch)
personally for me i can recognize e-fgc18401 it by marker: y-GATA-H4
they show values of 8
p.s
about those
j2b sample fron british paper
from trojet post and from your post in anthrogenica
total of 11 x J-L283
I26726, 1461 BCE, Croatia_MBA, Gudnja cave, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297
I24345, ~950 BCE, Croatia_MBA_LBA_EIA, Velim-Kosa, J-L283>
I23911, 844 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I23995, 743 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I24638, 681 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I24639, 681 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I26742, 700 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Jazinka Cave, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>Z38241
I24882, 662 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Mala Metaljka, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I4998, 300 BCE, Hungary_IA_LaTene, Vas county, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058
I5691, 666 BCE, Slovenia_EIA, Novo mesto, Kapiteljska njive, J-L283>>Z615>Z597
I22940, 475 BCE, Slovenia_EIA, Zagorje ob Savi, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507
i would say it pretty clear even to non -expert like me that it looks illyrian haplogroup
or for sure associated with those people
Thanks, that would make sense.
I think it's remarkable and quite telling that two of the oldest J-Z2507 samples (dated to MBA), which btw also belong to each of its branches, are found so close to each other. The "brother" clade to J-Z2507, that is J-Y146400, seems pretty western Balkan as well, with one of its branches found in NW Croatia and the other in south Albania. The middle point of these two would roughly correspond to the the region where we have the oldest J-Z2507 samples.
I know you claim Cetina culture had a different character from Posušje, but given this diversity, we may in fact be looking at J-Z597 as a lineage of the Cetina culture.
The Wikipedia article mentions:
It is named after the numerous sites along the Cetina river in Central Dalmatia and Herzegovina. People of this culture were present in caves (Skarin Samograd near Drniš, Gudnja near Ston, Ravlić cave in Drinovci) or in open settlements (Gradac in Kotorac and Krstina near Posušje).
And this MBA J-Z1297 was found precisely in Gudnja cave
It's also quite possible that Cetina and Posušje cultures were genetically very similar, considering they occupied the same regions and roughly the same timeframe (MBA).
In regards to J-Y21045, I don't think it could've been very far away either, but perhaps more inland. Within Albania, J-Y21045>PH4679 does show more of an eastern diversity.
Anyways, I'm sure future aDNA samples will shed more light. Places like Bosnia, much of Serbia, Montenegro, Kosovo, Albania, Macedonia, which should be interesting for J-L283 among others, remain pretty much black holes when it comes to available aDNA.
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Aspurg
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Not just me but recognized archeologists. I mentioned Gudnja was populated by Cetina prior to Posušje and prior to Cetina Ljubljana people lived there.
Genetically in archeological terms they are not related, and it is not possible they were.
Cetina was a syncretic culture involving primarily Ljubljana, Neolithic locals, then Bell Beaker and some Yamnaya, Glina. In the upcoming Pannonian study there are multiple Ljubljana samples with more EEF ancestry, and they seem to have Z2103. I don't think this fits into J2b2, based on this it seems they would have been more EEF shifted than Posušje, primarily based on these new Ljubljana finds. Maybe even approaching Mycenean like.
Doesn't Albania have 2 samples already? (I know you don't count them yet) Plus those (genuine) Daunians are from Albania. They give at least a partial picture of Albanian (more southern) areas prior to their migration.
torzio
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The daunian samples as per the August paper states they came from modern Croatia and not albania ..............read the paper
enter_tain
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J2B2-L283 was a proto-Illyrian marker, not an Illyrian marker. Look at the Slavic migrations. Slovenia/Croatia/Bosnia had an almost complete population turnover, while Albania only had a chunk of Slavic DNA. There's a geographical reason for that (Prolektije).
The proto-Illyrians descended from Central/Eastern Europe and caused an almost complete population turnover in the Slavic part of the Western Balkans. But I assume the areas around Albania will have some native EV-13/RZ2103 holdouts from IE populations like the Bryges. The southern Balkans were a lot more populated. This is generally the case, and it's why northern Europe has more steppe DNA = southern Europe was always more populated.
Read on the Bryges
"according to the Macedonians, the Bryges "changed their name" to Phryges after migrating into Anatolia,[3] a movement which is thought to have happened between 1200 BC and 800 BC[4] perhaps due to the Bronze Age collapse, particularly the fall of the Hittite Empire and the power vacuum that was created. In the Balkans, the Bryges occupied central Albania and some parts of northern Epirus,[5] as well as Macedonia, mainly west of the Axios river, but also Mygdonia, which was conquered by the kingdom of Macedon in the early 5th century BC.[6] They seem to have lived peacefully next to the inhabitants of Macedonia."Illyrians came to Albania maybe in 1500-1000 BC, but there is IE archeological presence there even before that. Very similar to the early Beakers in England before Celts settled.
The proto-Illyrians descended from Central/Eastern Europe and caused an almost complete population turnover in the Slavic part of the Western Balkans. But I assume the areas around Albania will have some native EV-13/RZ2103 holdouts from IE populations like the Bryges. The southern Balkans were a lot more populated. This is generally the case, and it's why northern Europe has more steppe DNA = southern Europe was always more populated.
Read on the Bryges
"according to the Macedonians, the Bryges "changed their name" to Phryges after migrating into Anatolia,[3] a movement which is thought to have happened between 1200 BC and 800 BC[4] perhaps due to the Bronze Age collapse, particularly the fall of the Hittite Empire and the power vacuum that was created. In the Balkans, the Bryges occupied central Albania and some parts of northern Epirus,[5] as well as Macedonia, mainly west of the Axios river, but also Mygdonia, which was conquered by the kingdom of Macedon in the early 5th century BC.[6] They seem to have lived peacefully next to the inhabitants of Macedonia."Illyrians came to Albania maybe in 1500-1000 BC, but there is IE archeological presence there even before that. Very similar to the early Beakers in England before Celts settled.
enter_tain
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The huge news from these samples is that Illyrians are clearly 1 set of people. It's not a mixture of a bunch of tribes like it was thought.
This is a very homogenous group of people and there is a clear continuum from northern Greece to Slovenia.
This is a very homogenous group of people and there is a clear continuum from northern Greece to Slovenia.
I agree with you on the rest, but both J-L283 and E-V13 were not - in their majority - a native local component. They both came during MBA-EIA. J-L283 spread with the Southern Tumulus culture expansions, E-V13 with South Eastern Urnfield/Channelled Ware. The big unknown is R-Z2103, which was present and widespread before the other too, because of Yamnaya, but might have experienced its own founder effects subsequently, either with some of the other two groups or on its own. Greater numbers did usually save the autosomal profile better, but not necessarily the patrilineages, because out of a big pool of people, conquering groups did usually pick up a couple of local women. What they did with the males depended on various factors, among these was the subsistence pattern and social structure they conquerors and the locals had. Both the Illyrians and the Channelled Ware people which marched South were still largely clanish, so they did pick up males primarily in necessary alliances, not by default. This means where they were strong and really conquered, they oftentimes eliminated most local males. When they were rather trickling in, in smaller groups and didn't really control larger regions, like in Northern Greece, they fused with locals or were later replaced themselves.
Archetype0ne
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What do you mean by the bolded part?
Aspurg
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It is irrelevant what it states. Such papers also state things such as Mesolithic I2a Din etc. Per archeological evidence Daunians were from Albania, not from modern Croatia.
Archetype0ne
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Don't bother with him Aspurg. He lies and tries to manipulate through his teeth.
Often falsely claiming facts about published papers that if you were to try to find you would not be able to.
When the Daunian paper was published seeing as what he is stating was not part of the paper, he was quoting some 2nd paper that claimed what he is now attributing(if it even did, did not bother with it) to the Daunian paper. Now that its not so fresh in peoples memories he is attributing the false claim to the Daunian paper.
I have seen a lot of scum over fora, but never such deceptive manipulative scum as this fella that has to change account every couple of years.
Thrako_Illyrian
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Albanians only only show high IBD sharing within the last 1500 years and it is most likely related to the Slavic incursions and not so much from expanding
from a small population necessarily. Before 1500 years, Albanians show normal IBD sharing like all other Europeans. Albanians also show high IBD sharing
within the last 1500 years with their neighbours such as Greeks, Macedonians and Italians. Indicating Albanians weren't isolated and a lot of Albanians
were assimilated into these populations possibly.
Regarding the claim of reshaped Y-DNA frequency or founder effect, they seem to mainly be baseless claims at this point.
Thrako_Illyrian
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Romanians and Bulgarians in totality don't have much to do with ancient Balkan autosomally due to heavy Slavic admixture, no modern people is a good proxy of ancient Balkans, including Albanians or Greeks (except Dodecanese etc). Italians are a better proxy. The whole of ancient Balkan was sort of Italian-like in many ways, some Northern-like, some Southern-like etc. Ancient Western Balkan and Eastern Balkan had plenty of similarities but differences as well..
I suggest you do not devolve into useless drivel inspired by.And this is not a thread for E-V13 either.
Also Roman, Roman-MENA autosomal influence in modern Balkanites is underestimated.
We don't really have an urge to be something that we clearly are. I tested J2b2-L283 myself. And it's obvious to me at this point these people are the ones who carried the proto-proto-Albanian language and Messapian language probably which Eric Hamp links to Albanian.
Y-DNA is not the only thing we inherited from these people but also part of the Albanian autosomal DNA comes from these people such as Italian_Bergamo, Italian_Veneto that these samples cluster with I have seen many Kosovo and Gheg Albanians get that on calculators etc. So part of the autosomal has also been inherited.
Then we have archaelogical evidence such as the Glasinac culture which was shown by Carleton Coon that Albanian mountaineers used the same tools
from that Iron Age culture. There was also some Thracian and Roman influence. Large part of the Albanian folk mythology is also from Illyrian.
enter_tain
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The Proto-Illyrians were an IE-speaking people. As such, they clearly didn't originate in the Balkans. Illyrians are a Balkanic people. Proto-Illyrians no.
Like Maciamo put it, this is associated with the Illyrian colonisation of the Balkans. But I don't think it was complete population replacement through and through, especially in the areas close to Greece.
The entire Balkan was homogenous though. Look how close Thracians are to Mycenaeans.
It just looks like most of these conquering IE did took a lot of local brides, even in zones in which the patrilineages led to a near total replacement. To put it simple, in the Balkans it was most of the time more like Iberian Bell Beakers rather than British Bell Beakers. This is true for Proto-Greeks, Proto-Illyrians and Proto-Thracians.
All three branched off as they penetrated the region, by picking up more and more local ancestry. Greeks probably the most of those, Southern, Lower Danubian Thracians come second place.
All three branched off as they penetrated the region, by picking up more and more local ancestry. Greeks probably the most of those, Southern, Lower Danubian Thracians come second place.
enter_tain
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I'm talking about paternal lineages. The western Balkans (including Slovenia) where Illyrians lived were J2B2-L283/Z517 heavy, with south Dalmatia -> Montenegro/Albania is where the Z638 line started becoming dominant. This also proves that Z631 being "Celtic" is nonsense. It's a southwest Balkans lineage like all Z638.
PCA plots in general are MASSIVELY overrated when it comes to establishing close kinship. You had a lot of steppe populations that plotted closely on a PCA plot, but shared no close kinship. The new big thing will be IBD analysis, which David Reich already started using to determine kinship between Yamnaya and Corded Ware.
Yeah, there's two types of replacements. Total and Patriarchical 50/50. Spanish people are almost 100% IE patrilineally but less than 50% autosomally.