J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[torzio]

the furthest southern Liburnian city in modern croatia is

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skradin

making Dalmatia much smaller than what people thought

 

[enter_tain]

Is there anything we can do to get deeper subclades on those Messapian samples? Or is it just a poor sample and that's it. Deeper subclades would definitely tell us so much in terms of dates and location with regards to their migration to Italy.

 

[Ghurier]

Is there anything we can do to get deeper subclades on those Messapian samples? Or is it just a poor sample and that's it. Deeper subclades would definitely tell us so much in terms of dates and location with regards to their migration to Italy.

I would expect Y15058+, and if we look at modern day surviving clade, we see some BY161113 around.
Regarding the "when", it think as early as 1700 BC, or later but no later than 1200 BC.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

Strabo
part of the Alps which extends as far as the country of the Iapodes,a tribe which is at the same time both Celtic and Illyrian. And thence, too, flow rivers which bring down into Segestica much merchandise p255 both from other countries and from Italy. For if one passes over Mount Ocra​276 from Aquileia to Nauportus,​277 a settlement of the Taurisci, whither the wagons are brought, the distance is three hundred and fifty stadia, though some say five hundred. Now the Ocra is the lowest part of that portion of the Alps which extends from the country of the Rhaeti to that of the Iapodes. Then the mountains rise again, in the country of the Iapodes, and are called "Albian."​278 In like manner, also, there is a pass which leads over Ocra from Tergeste,​279 a Carnic village, to a marsh called Lugeum.​280
276 = Julian alps
277 = Ober-Laibach
278 = lower eastern alps near sava river
279 = Trieste
280 = Lake Zirknitz
the country of the Iapodes; for the Iapodes are situated on the Albian Mountain, which is the last mountain of the Alps, is very lofty, and reaches down to the country of the Pannonians on one side and to the Adrias on the other. They are indeed a war-mad people, but they have been utterly worn out by Augustus. Their cities​ are Metulum,​294 Arupini,​295 Monetium,​296 and Vendo.​297
Their lands are poor, the people living for the most part on spelt and millet. Their armour is Celtic, and they are tattooed like the rest of the Illyrians and the Thracians. After the voyage along the coast of the country of the Iapodes comes that along the coast of the country of the Liburni, the latter being five hundred stadia longer than the former; on this voyage is a river,​298 which is navigable inland for merchant-vessels as far as the country of the Dalmatians, and also a Liburnian city, Scardo.299
294 = Metule
295 = Auersberg
296 = Möttnig
297 = "Avendo," which place was near what are now Crkvinje Kampolje, south-east of Zeng
298 = The Titius, now Kerka
299 = Scardona
The Iapodes are the Daunians of Foggia Italy who speak a messapic language

Yeah there were Celts in Illyrian lands. I think there were even Celts in Albania and Kosovo. He distinguished the Epirote from Greeks, interesting enough.
There is no question to me the Messapians were of Illyrian stock at one point. He mentions the Dardanians as Illyrians also.

 

[Trojet]

Is there anything we can do to get deeper subclades on those Messapian samples? Or is it just a poor sample and that's it. Deeper subclades would definitely tell us so much in terms of dates and location with regards to their migration to Italy.

Unfortunately not, unless they are resequenced in a future paper or something.

These samples are very low coverage (~0.01 to 0.06 for chrY). I did check the BAM files for many J-L283 subclades older than ~3000 ybp and could not get anything useful, besides that ORD014 is negative for a J-Y23094 SNP and SAL001 is negative at J-PH1602.

 

[Ghurier]

I looked at the data published by FTDNA and there are 467 results of Romanians, of which 153 are from haplogroup J, which means 32.76% !! Is it possible that there are so many, or is there something wrong with these results? If so, does that mean we have the highest concentration in the Balkans ! Do we exceed the percentages of Albania, Greece, Italy, and equal those of Armenia ?!

You say J, but J-what ?
Because, I suspect that the fraction of J2a and J1 is far from being negligible.

From here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanians#Genetics , J2 seems to be around ~15% among Romanians, then I would expect J2b to be around ~10% but it seems to significantly across the country:
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_Europe
There is up to ~20% J in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ploiești , I don't find higher values.

Total amount of Js is a complex combo of many migration movements, I'm not sure a the interest of such fraction ...

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

I looked at the data published by FTDNA and there are 467 results of Romanians, of which 153 are from haplogroup J, which means 32.76% !! Is it possible that there are so many, or is there something wrong with these results? If so, does that mean we have the highest concentration in the Balkans ! Do we exceed the percentages of Albania, Greece, Italy, and equal those of Armenia ?!

It depends on what J. In Albania it's mostly J2b2-L283 and in some regions of Northern Albania/Kosovo J2b2-L283 reaches 30%-40%.

I don't know about Romanian. Romanians, genetically speaking, have Dacian, Thracian, Slavic and other ancestry too. But I know there is some J2b2-L283 in Romanians and Aromanians.

 

[Ghurier]

FTDNA has 65 J1 (13.92%) and 88 J2 (18.84%) out of 467. In total it means 32.76% !? Either I counted wrong or something is wrong with their data. Or it is probably not about the Romanians but more about the population of other ethnic groups as a Jew from Romania who emigrated for the most part for some time.

Which database did you used to arrive at these numbers ? Did you count manually all flags ?

After, even without mistakes, there is many things to take into account with such "sampling":
--> 1st : statistical uncertainties, with such number of sample, even if the sampling is perfectly random, you have 2.5% of uncertainty at 68% confindence level. Meaning that the 95% condidence interval for your total percentage is in fact ~[27%,38%].
--> 2nd : the sampling, if the country contains different population with different cultures, you may except a bias in the fraction of people of each culture performing such DNA test, that may bias low/high the real fraction inside the country.
--> 3rd : correlated sampling, when a guy is doing a test, the likely hood that family member are also doing one is higher, therefore you didn't have 467 uncorrelated samples. You have 467 samples but some are related to each other, which means that the poisonnian uncertainty I was quoting in my first point is under-estimated.

Therefore, the number you are quoting didn't look crazy compared to what some other studies (also with small number of sample) are quoting.

 

[enter_tain]

Unfortunately not, unless they are resequenced in a future paper or something.

These samples are very low coverage (~0.01 to 0.06 for chrY). I did check the BAM files for many J-L283 subclades older than ~3000 ybp and could not get anything useful, besides that ORD014 is negative for a J-Y23094 SNP and SAL001 is negative at J-PH1602.

Yeah that's too bad.

 

[Hawk]

It depends on what J. In Albania it's mostly J2b2-L283 and in some regions of Northern Albania/Kosovo J2b2-L283 reaches 30%-40%.

I don't know about Romanian. Romanians, genetically speaking, have Dacian, Thracian, Slavic and other ancestry too. But I know there is some J2b2-L283 in Romanians and Aromanians.

In Kosovo the only Y-DNA reaching over 30% is E-V13 in various peer reviewed scientific papers. 40-45% in two papers.

 

[Fustan]

In Kosovo the only Y-DNA reaching over 30% is E-V13 in various peer reviewed scientific papers. 40-45% in two papers.

What sample size do these studies and papers range from?

 

[Hawk]

What sample size do these studies and papers range from?

They have targeted uniformly the population, well known peer reviewed papers accessible to everyone by a simple google search, they don't target specifically Krasniqi tribe like that J2b2 Borat Sagdiyev project. You guys have become worse propagandists than Serbs. Serbs have left it over, you have taken to completely new level.

 

[Fustan]

They have targeted uniformly the population, well known peer reviewed papers accessible to everyone by a simple google search, they don't target specifically Krasniqi tribe like that J2b2 Borat Sagdiyev project. You guys have become worse propagandists than Serbs. Serbs have left it over, you have taken to completely new level.

Whut? I was literally just asking a genuine question because I wanted to compare it to the sample size from Gjenetika which is quite high and shows J2-L283 at almost the same levels as E-V13 in Kosovo.
I think you need to chill out. Maybe I'll ask Matzinger how to translate "chill out" into Illyrian because he seems to know a ton about an almost completely undocumented language.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

They have targeted uniformly the population, well known peer reviewed papers accessible to everyone by a simple google search, they don't target specifically Krasniqi tribe like that J2b2 Borat Sagdiyev project. You guys have become worse propagandists than Serbs. Serbs have left it over, you have taken to completely new level.

Since when are out dated peer reviewed studies over 20 years ago that only used like 100 samples more important than an actual project that has used way more samples over all ? In some regions of Kosovo R1b reaches 60% according to some of these project. I'm not just talking about J2b2. But even R1b in some regions of Kosovo and Albania is higher than EV-13.

 

[Hawk]

Since when are out dated peer reviewed studies over 20 years ago that only used like 100 samples more important than an actual project that has used way more samples over all ? In some regions of Kosovo R1b reaches 60% according to some of these project. I'm not just talking about J2b2. But even R1b in some regions of Kosovo and Albania is higher than EV-13.

You have been chimping too much lately, i can spot your vibe from miles away, hence we will not leave it on your own.

I can bring 300 samples from neighboring regions all Berishas, and spike up the percentage. You see what i am talking?

South to North, West to East E-V13 is the single most spread Y-DNA among Albanians.

What matters is, peer reviewed scientific papers, not random Johns collecting samples and making statistics.

2019 Macedonian paper: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1872497319301097

has Albanians in Macedonia carrying 35% E-V13, 18% R1b, ~14% J2b2, and Albanians from Macedonia are very good representatives of Ghegs, having both South/Central/North Gheg origin. This just mimicks what we already know, not what you want to twist.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

In the tribal areas of Northern Albania, J2b2-L283 is very common reaching 30%-40%. And you cannot really claim that these are cherry picked results.

Kosovo might be a different case. I don't know. They should find households in Western Kosovo who have no tribal affiliations and test them. Like Lutovac showed in Opoja over 400 Kosovo Albanian households had no tribal affiliation.

 

[Archetype0ne]

LMAO, now what division over haplogroups? Which haplo has highest %? Which haplo on average has biggest ___ ? Cmon. Having competitive nature is cool and all, but this is just ridiculous.

 

[enter_tain]

You have been chimping too much lately, i can spot your vibe from miles away, hence we will not leave it on your own.

I can bring 300 samples from neighboring regions all Berishas, and spike up the percentage. You see what i am talking?

South to North, West to East E-V13 is the single most spread Y-DNA among Albanians.

What matters is, peer reviewed scientific papers, not random Johns collecting samples and making statistics.

2019 Macedonian paper: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1872497319301097

has Albanians in Macedonia carrying 35% E-V13, 18% R1b, ~14% J2b2, and Albanians from Macedonia are very good representatives of Ghegs, having both South/Central/North Gheg origin. This just mimicks what we already know, not what you want to twist.

It's quite clear EV-13 experience a massive recent founder effect, especially in Kosovo. This is very well documented. You're not going to find people with 50% EV-13 in that region in antiquity.

 

[Riverman]

It's quite clear EV-13 experience a massive recent founder effect, especially in Kosovo. This is very well documented. You're not going to find people with 50% EV-13 in that region in antiquity.

But you might find 75, 80 or more percent in the Balkanic neighbourhood, especially along the Danube, in the Iron Age to Late Antiquity, like some of the first samples from Viminacium, the Balkan Iron Age cluster and Thracians from Kapitan Andreevo, Psenichevo culture suggest. This might be in the Late Bronze Age associated with the spread of Daco-Thracians with G?va/Channelled Ware. Some sites and remains associated with them and their spread in the LBA:

Generally, it seems that so-called Aegean
weapons were used in the southern parts of the Morava valley, while populations
from the northern parts of Morava and the Podunavlje
region had access to weapons from Central European
regions.
The appearance of numerous types of Central European
weapons has been documented for the Transitional
period (Ha A?

in the Velika (Great) Morava valley,
and their number and diversity exceed that of the previous
period (Fig. 7).

That's because Channelled Ware people migrated down, slowly taking over in the Morava valley, as can be seen in the burials too.

Of all these swords, the most instructive is the Reutlingen type,
which is the most common in the Serbian Danube region
but also appears in the Great and South Morava
valleys, with two more examples found in south-western
Albania.
The Reutlingen type is linked to a population
that used the Fluted Ware of Type Gava-Belegi?
II from the Central Balkan area. In a broader context,
examples of this type of sword are found throughout
Europe, with a significant number being found in the
Pannonian Basin. Southwards, their abundance decreases
south of the Sava and Danube rivers, although
some pieces have turned up in Mycenae, Crete, and
even on Kos Island.

Of particular inter -
est are pieces with so-called flamed blades, which
are undoubtedly of Central European origin, and can
probably be attributed to the Gava complex. A casting
mould for this type of spearhead was identified at the
Kokino site, together with indigenous pottery of the
Brnjica culture. Flame-bladed spearheads and swords
of the Reutlingen type seem to penetrate the Morava
river valley from north to south during the Transitional
period. In a broader context, flame-bladed spearheads
are found in Poland, 33 Moravia,34 Bosnia and Herzego -
vina,35 Bulgaria36 and even ? albeit rarely ? in Greece.37
During the Transitional period, other types of spears
are found throughout the wider territory of Euro-Asia.
Therefore, a strong circulation of Central European
weapons is evident in the Morava valley during this
period, while some of the types which occured earlier,
as well as some new and localy distributed examples,
appear only in the peripheral parts of the Central Bal -
kans (i.e. in mountainous or hilly areas with limited
accessability).

https://ibb.co/94WZLYj

From:
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._-_changes_in_topography_and_material_culture

You could that map with other finds too, and it would be pretty much the same, like black burnished, fluted/channelled ceramic, hoards and specific cremation burials in combination.

This map from Sabine Pabst shows the wider distribution of the earlier Reutlingen type, note the concentration of finds in the Upper Tisza region, the G?va centre, and how it spread with it southward:

https://ibb.co/J5Vq0zD

From:
Sabine Pabst ? Naue II-Schwerter mit Knaufzunge und die Au?enbeziehungen der mykenischen Kriegerelite
https://journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/index.php/jahrb-rgzm/article/view/20311

Note how there are single finds in Albania, showing some sort of "contact", but that that there are much bigger numbers find upwards, in the core settlement area of Belegis II-G?va along the Danube. The Channelled Ware people had a cult of iron, sun and fire. Their ritual ceramic was burnished black outside and red inside. They burned their dead and their spears were flame shaped quite often. Very common was a sun and fire symbolism, with some mysterious, so far not well understood symbolism and the use of written symbols.
They also had contacts to the Sea Peoples and some of their warbands might have participated. There are finds of ship artefacts as far as in their core territory in Lapoș, Northern Romania.

There were mixed Thraco-Illyrian people, like especially the Dardanians and the Triballi. In these a similar frequency of the main haplogroups of todays Albanians might be found, but that's just speculation at this point.

 

[enter_tain]

But you might find 75, 80 or more percent in the Balkanic neighbourhood, especially along the Danube, in the Iron Age to Late Antiquity, like some of the first samples from Viminacium, the Balkan Iron Age cluster and Thracians from Kapitan Andreevo, Psenichevo culture suggest. This might be in the Late Bronze Age associated with the spread of Daco-Thracians with G�va/Channelled Ware. Some sites and remains associated with them and their spread in the LBA:



That's because Channelled Ware people migrated down, slowly taking over in the Morava valley, as can be seen in the burials too.

https://ibb.co/94WZLYj

From:
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._-_changes_in_topography_and_material_culture

You could that map with other finds too, and it would be pretty much the same, like black burnished, fluted/channelled ceramic, hoards and specific cremation burials in combination.

Note how there are single finds in Albania, showing some sort of "contact", but that that there are much bigger numbers find upwards, in the core settlement area of Belegis II-G�va along the Danube. The Channelled Ware people had a cult of iron, sun and fire. Their ritual ceramic was burnished black outside and red inside. They burned their dead and their spears were flame shaped quite often. Very common was a sun and fire symbolism, with some mysterious, so far not well understood symbolism and the use of written symbols.
They also had contacts to the Sea Peoples and some of their warbands might have participated. There are finds of ship artefacts as far as in their core territory in Lapoș, Northern Romania.

There were mixed Thraco-Illyrian people, like especially the Dardanians and the Triballi. In these a similar frequency of the main haplogroups of todays Albanians might be found, but that's just speculation at this point.

Point being, if even the exact same populations lives in a place, after 3500 years, the Y-DNA ratios are going to change drastically. The most important thing is that it's the same lineages and nothing new.

You could easily have a population with 5% of one Y-DNA, and after 3-4000 years, that Y-DNA becomes 30% or higher. Especially if it's a small population. I don't know what's up with EV-13, but it could easily be the case that it was a minority Y-DNA in antiquity and got bigger over thousands of years.