J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Riverman]

Point being, if even the exact same populations lives in a place, after 3500 years, the Y-DNA ratios are going to change drastically. The most important thing is that it's the same lineages and nothing new.

You could easily have a population with 5% of one Y-DNA, and after 3-4000 years, that Y-DNA becomes 30% or higher. Especially if it's a small population. I don't know what's up with EV-13, but it could easily be the case that it was a minority Y-DNA in antiquity and got bigger over thousands of years.

It was small in the Neolithic, grew in the MBA, got big in the LBA to Iron Age, did still held ground in the Roman era and being reduced especially in the migration period. However, there were secondary expansions, like those of the Albanians and Southern Vlachs, which kind of "brought it back" in some areas.
But more generally speaking, the time of greatest success and expansion was in the Late Bronze Age to Middle Iron Age, with an absolute high in the transitional period, because then Channelled Ware and its successors got the technological edge with these Naue II slashing swords first and being among the first mass producers of iron weapons.

The Viminacium case is pretty straightforward, because there is no modern population with such a high E-V13 frequency as the Balkan Iron Age cluster of this sample.

 

[Fustan]

Point being, if even the exact same populations lives in a place, after 3500 years, the Y-DNA ratios are going to change drastically. The most important thing is that it's the same lineages and nothing new.

You could easily have a population with 5% of one Y-DNA, and after 3-4000 years, that Y-DNA becomes 30% or higher. Especially if it's a small population. I don't know what's up with EV-13, but it could easily be the case that it was a minority Y-DNA in antiquity and got bigger over thousands of years.

Damn, you're making too much sense. By the way you're talking to a guy who for the longest time thought J2B2 entered the Balkans from Sardinia. Not a very good track record.

 

[Hawk]

It was small in the Neolithic, grew in the MBA, got big in the LBA to Iron Age, did still held ground in the Roman era and being reduced especially in the migration period. However, there were secondary expansions, like those of the Albanians and Southern Vlachs, which kind of "brought it back" in some areas.
But more generally speaking, the time of greatest success and expansion was in the Late Bronze Age to Middle Iron Age, with an absolute high in the transitional period, because then Channelled Ware and its successors got the technological edge with these Naue II slashing swords first and being among the first mass producers of iron weapons.

The Viminacium case is pretty straightforward, because there is no modern population with such a high E-V13 frequency as the Balkan Iron Age cluster of this sample.

Funny thing is, he is quoting a staunch anti-Albanian blogger Dienekes Pontikos and his hypothesis of 10 years old. Well, he does that to twist reality.

The only E-V13 bottleneck in Kosovo was of Berisha-Sopi, especially Sopi on it's initial phase, then Berisha after their dispersal after a certain war with an Ottoman-Albanian Pasha.

Look at Kosovo Serbs for instance, they have increased E-V13, and very low J2b2-L283 which might be an indicator at which Y-DNA was more widespread in the region after the Serbs migrated and assimilated/incorporated the native population.

 

[Fustan]

Yes, believing in bottlenecks is anti-Albanian but believing that Viminacium, a cosmopolitan Roman region is the model for ancient Y-DNA in Illyrian regions is not.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

Funny thing is, he is quoting a staunch anti-Albanian blogger Dienekes Pontikos and his hypothesis of 10 years old. Well, he does that to twist reality.

The only E-V13 bottleneck in Kosovo was of Berisha-Sopi, especially Sopi on it's initial phase, then Berisha after their dispersal after a certain war with an Ottoman-Albanian Pasha.

Look at Kosovo Serbs for instance, they have increased E-V13, and very low J2b2-L283 which might be an indicator at which Y-DNA was more widespread in the region after the Serbs migrated and assimilated/incorporated the native population.

Serbs did not even conquer the region until the late 12th century. Under the law of Dusan before the Ottoman period there was even a marriage against Vlachs. Many Kosovo Serbs are also migrants from other areas like Montenegro, Serbia proper, Hercegovina, Northern Albania. Many were also settled with the colonization by the Yugoslav government.
Serbs also invaded and settled Albania. For example Shkoder was at one point a capital. This happened before their expansion into Kosovo. They also invaded Macedonia where Shkup was used as a capital. So how come they don't have elevated J2b2-L283 or any other haplogroup if we apply your logic ? Or Balkan Slavs in general for that matter ?

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

You have been chimping too much lately, i can spot your vibe from miles away, hence we will not leave it on your own.

I can bring 300 samples from neighboring regions all Berishas, and spike up the percentage. You see what i am talking?

South to North, West to East E-V13 is the single most spread Y-DNA among Albanians.

What matters is, peer reviewed scientific papers, not random Johns collecting samples and making statistics.

2019 Macedonian paper:

has Albanians in Macedonia carrying 35% E-V13, 18% R1b, ~14% J2b2, and Albanians from Macedonia are very good representatives of Ghegs, having both South/Central/North Gheg origin. This just mimicks what we already know, not what you want to twist.

You are using Kosovo Serbs who are migrants from all over the place during the Ottoman and Yugoslav period, and who show high R1a and I2a, together with what most likely was a EV-13 bottleneck of Kosovo Albanians to claim some EV-13 domination in the region. Many Kosovo Serbs aren't natives in Kosovo but came from neighboring areas as did many Albanians.

I actually have nothing to do with these project but I looked them up. http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/ And there used to be another project too if I recall I remember I came over it. And they tested a lot of Berisha, Kelmend and Sopi which spikes up the EV-13 so funny how you accuse them of unreliable results since they all seem to of tested EV-13.

The Y-DNA study on Kosovo is old and out dated. In the Macedonian result they only tested 100 people or so for each ethnic group. Come and talk when they have tested 900 people.

There are studies on Northern Albania / Malsia that shows J2b2-L283 is higher than EV-13 from these projects and they are certainly not sample biased. How could they possibly be when they tested people from all tribes ? You need to stop this. The mountains there have been one of the core areas of Albanians after the incursion of Slavs. And one of the first Albanian principalities was founded in North-Central Albania.

Just because I don't believe in your dubious conspiracy theories doesn't mean I'm chimping. You're trying to claim Proto-Albanians as some EV-13 migrants from the Carpathians and believing in conspiracy theories. I would like to look more into your conspiracy theories to clearly see they make no sense. But you chose to believe in that charlatan Matzinger who talks on about a language we don't have a single inscription in despite there is strong cultural material evidence that goes against everything he claims.

 

[Hawk]

You are using Kosovo Serbs who are migrants from all over the place during the Ottoman and Yugoslav period, and who show high R1a and I2a, together with what most likely was a EV-13 bottleneck of Kosovo Albanians to claim some EV-13 domination in the region. Many Kosovo Serbs aren't natives in Kosovo but came from neighboring areas as did many Albanians.

I actually have nothing to do with these project but I looked them up. http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/ And there used to be another project too if I recall I remember I came over it. And they tested a lot of Berisha, Kelmend and Sopi which spikes up the EV-13 so funny how you accuse them of unreliable results since they all seem to of tested EV-13.

The Y-DNA study on Kosovo is old and out dated. In the Macedonian result they only tested 100 people or so for each ethnic group. Come and talk when they have tested 900 people.

There are studies on Northern Albania / Malsia that shows J2b2-L283 is higher than EV-13 from these projects and they are certainly not sample biased. How could they possibly be when they tested people from all tribes ? You need to stop this. The mountains there have been one of the core areas of Albanians after the incursion of Slavs. And one of the first Albanian principalities was founded in North-Central Albania.

Just because I don't believe in your dubious conspiracy theories doesn't mean I'm chimping. You're trying to claim Proto-Albanians as some EV-13 migrants from the Carpathians and believing in conspiracy theories. I would like to look more into your conspiracy theories to clearly see they make no sense. But you chose to believe in that charlatan Matzinger who talks on about a language we don't have a single inscription in despite there is strong cultural material evidence that goes against everything he claims.

What a tribalistic low IQ mindset, no wonder you eat shit around in different foras, but time has come to actually to hold on because you don't just **** around with us. It's the matter of how samples randomly are taken, they are peer reviewed scientific papers, and there is couple of them with the same pattern. When new ones come, they will totally destroy your sampling bias because first and foremost the aim of peer reviewed papers is statistics not subclade determination like the other Albanian projects had in mind without taking in consideration statistics deviation.

Your wild theories in foras, about making E-V13 Middle Age phenomenon can rest in piece. Now i can see why you guys insist on it.

 

[Davidtab]

So... does someone know the correspondence of I4998 (BY162321) in Gedmatch? I would like to compare my autosomal with him, because I am BY162321 too, I am actually waiting for the results of FT273354 analysis, does someone know nationality of YF94724 and YF93731 in YFULL?

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

''[FONT=&quot]See van Wijk, 'Taalkunde gegevens'; quotation from p. 71. The modern dialect of Serbo-Croat which borders Macedonian and Bulgarian territory, the 'Timok-Prizren' dialect, does have some transitional features; but research has shown that it picked them up only after the medieval expansion of the Serbian state into Kosovo and the Morava valley, which brought its speakers into closer contact with Bulgarian ([/FONT]ibid., pp. 62, 71).''

 

[Ghurier]

Hi,

Here are some maps to summarize migrations possibilities for some J-L283 clades.

First, a "northern" theory :

Placement of J-Z585 is a little bit random, I have yet to make sense of the 5100 bp diversification event.
This is the migrations route I'm currently considering the most likely, mainly because of Z631 diversification around 800 bc.
Lack of Z631 ancient samples could find an explanion if these guys were heavily practicing cremation instead of burials.
Key elements here are the localisation of J-Z597 and J-Z638. Finding J-Y15058 all over the Adriatic coast might indicates remants of Bell-Beaker influence on Cetina Culture. Wide diffusion of this clade, would have occured later around 1800-1700 bc, including some migrations toward Italy (Etruria) during Iron Age.
The clades behind Daunians are not known, surviving clades in southern Italy today didn't give a clear picture , I would say that they would likely show up as being either J-Y15058 or some early albanian clades under J-Z638.
I placed the entrance of J-L283 in Sardinia very early, around 3100 bc, because making them enter around 1200 bc after bronze age collapse is way too complicated to explain for the admixture and the set of "imported" clades.


Alternative southern theory :

I think the alternative for J-Z585 following a more southern road is not out of the picture.
Then, the location of Z597 is not really convincing me in this case, a south --> north dispersal on the Adriatic coast seems unlikely at this epoch.
I also still have the same issues with placing Z631 there waiting for the Romans to diffuse them :
1) if we see some impact of the roman times on Illyrians subclades, we see nothing for the Z631 at the supposed time of roman diffusion.
2) to make this work, Z631 should be massively displaced (to a point were no specific subclade stayed only among Illyrians), and installed directly in some places without to much "mobility", to avoid the creation of surviving diversity at that moment.
3) However, such scenario is challenged by the other typical Illyrian subclades that didn't exited at all Illyria during roman times.


Maybe the correct version is a little mix of hypothesis from both the southern and the northern diffusion model.

 

[Pax Augusta]

Hi,

Here are some maps to summarize migrations possibilities for some J-L283 clades.

First, a "northern" theory :

For the Etruscans, in the case of J-L283 archaeologists support the 'northern theory' as an arrival in the late Bronze age or very early Iron Age, from the northern-western Balkans, Danubian-Carpathian plain, arrived in Italy from the border between Slovenia and Friuli-Venezia Giulia, not from the sea.

 

[torzio]

Hi,
Here are some maps to summarize migrations possibilities for some J-L283 clades.
First, a "northern" theory :

Placement of J-Z585 is a little bit random, I have yet to make sense of the 5100 bp diversification event.
This is the migrations route I'm currently considering the most likely, mainly because of Z631 diversification around 800 bc.
Lack of Z631 ancient samples could find an explanion if these guys were heavily practicing cremation instead of burials.
Key elements here are the localisation of J-Z597 and J-Z638. Finding J-Y15058 all over the Adriatic coast might indicates remants of Bell-Beaker influence on Cetina Culture. Wide diffusion of this clade, would have occured later around 1800-1700 bc, including some migrations toward Italy (Etruria) during Iron Age.
The clades behind Daunians are not known, surviving clades in southern Italy today didn't give a clear picture , I would say that they would likely show up as being either J-Y15058 or some early albanian clades under J-Z638.
I placed the entrance of J-L283 in Sardinia very early, around 3100 bc, because making them enter around 1200 bc after bronze age collapse is way too complicated to explain for the admixture and the set of "imported" clades.
Alternative southern theory :

I think the alternative for J-Z585 following a more southern road is not out of the picture.
Then, the location of Z597 is not really convincing me in this case, a south --> north dispersal on the Adriatic coast seems unlikely at this epoch.
I also still have the same issues with placing Z631 there waiting for the Romans to diffuse them :
1) if we see some impact of the roman times on Illyrians subclades, we see nothing for the Z631 at the supposed time of roman diffusion.
2) to make this work, Z631 should be massively displaced (to a point were no specific subclade stayed only among Illyrians), and installed directly in some places without to much "mobility", to avoid the creation of surviving diversity at that moment.
3) However, such scenario is challenged by the other typical Illyrian subclades that didn't exited at all Illyria during roman times.
Maybe the correct version is a little mix of hypothesis from both the southern and the northern diffusion model.

your maps are flawed.........clearly you did not read the Daunian paper ........



as it states ...daunians come from modern Croatia

on your map , you need to link cetina with Foggia Italy as the Daunian path

 

[Archetype0ne]

your maps are flawed.........clearly you did not read the Daunian paper ........



as it states ...daunians come from modern Croatia

on your map , you need to link cetina with Foggia Italy as the Daunian path

Where does it state that mate?

 

[Ghurier]

your maps are flawed.........clearly you did not read the Daunian paper ........

... probably, this is a model with its limitations.
However, I do read this paper, and I think it didn't says what you believe it is saying.

as it states ...daunians come from modern Croatia

No, it states that there is affinity with IA-Croatia, truth to be said I expect "proper-Illyria" to show the same affinity (hard to tell without any sample). But I expect J-PH4679 to have followed the same migration patern than Y15058/Y38240, and thus this population to be very similar.

you need to link cetina with Foggia Italy as the Daunian path

As I said, this is a possibility, I think we can fairly assume that Daunians are under either J-Y15058 or J-PH4679.
Without a clear message from modern DNA, let wait ancien DNA.


Nevertheless, here is another map with way more details, sometimes placement is made for the map to be "readable" therefore it is more to see as general idea of the migration rather than a GPS-level exact localisation of clades and diversification events.

Still no real Idea of what is related to the 5100 ybp diversification event of Z585 (working on it).
One big thing changed since the previous map, Y86181 have been replaced in Albania by Y82533 with a later arrival during Roman times.
The main reason for that is that the Y23094 diversity center is in fact in Italy. Therefore, I think this solution is the one making the most sense, with Y82533 being a later Roman injection after the conquest of Illyria.
Another argument to support that is the number density of J-L283 in Albania, if you remove J-PH4679, you basically remove most of the J-L283 in this country. And you fall back on the "background" level of J-L283 you find everywhere else in Europe.
Thus, I'm now more aligned to think that for "proper"-Illyria, the clade tracing the Illyrians is PH4679 and correspond to a north-south migration that occured likely around 1800-1700BC, with a later diversification during Illyrian Ethnogenesis around 1200bc.

Other interesting point, I noticed after finishing the map. For Z631, we have a "sort-of" coherence for thediffusion, with a western expansion around 2700-2600 bp and an eastern expansion around 2400 bp. A pre-roman spatial coherence which is hard to fit with a roman diffusion model for this clade.
The real way Y12000 as been injected in Russia is only a rough assumption. I don't know if more is known about the carrier of this haplogroup to better understand what is the migration related to this diffusion.

 

[Trojet]

... probably, this is a model with its limitations.
However, I do read this paper, and I think it didn't says what you believe it is saying.

He doesn't like your map because it implies Daunian J-L283 is related to the Albanian clades

No, it states that there is affinity with IA-Croatia, truth to be said I expect "proper-Illyria" to show the same affinity (hard to tell without any sample). But I expect J-PH4679 to have followed the same migration patern than Y15058/Y38240, and thus this population to be very similar.

I think you mean Z38240. I've seen you made this typo before, so just wanted to point it out.

As I said, this is a possibility, I think we can fairly assume that Daunians are under either J-Y15058 or J-PH4679.
Without a clear message from modern DNA, let wait ancien DNA.
Nevertheless, here is another map with way more details, sometimes placement is made for the map to be "readable" therefore it is more to see as general idea of the migration rather than a GPS-level exact localisation of clades and diversification events.

Still no real Idea of what is related to the 5100 ybp diversification event of Z585 (working on it).
One big thing changed since the previous map, Y86181 have been replaced in Albania by Y82533 with a later arrival during Roman times.
The main reason for that is that the Y23094 diversity center is in fact in Italy. Therefore, I think this solution is the one making the most sense, with Y82533 being a later Roman injection after the conquest of Illyria.
Another argument to support that is the number density of J-L283 in Albania, if you remove J-PH4679, you basically remove most of the J-L283 in this country. And you fall back on the "background" level of J-L283 you find everywhere else in Europe.
Thus, I'm now more aligned to think that for "proper"-Illyria, the clade tracing the Illyrians is PH4679 and correspond to a north-south migration that occured likely around 1800-1700BC, with a later diversification during Illyrian Ethnogenesis around 1200bc.

I believe your theories will not hold once we get some relevant aDNA for these subclades. We can't rely on modern distribution and YFull TMRCA estimates (which merely tell us when the lineages split, not when migrations occured), and assume things were the same over 2000 ybp, and on top of that ignore ancient DNA! We have a ~J-Z1297* dated ~1450 BC, (where btw J-Y23094, J-Y21878, J-Z631 stem from) just north of Albania while lacking elsewhere. So logic would say there was likely more than just J-PH4679 in the region, likely including J-Y23094 lineages among others.

With regards to J-PH4679, it's not as "exclusive" to Albania as the YFull tree suggests. There is actually already an American sample (likely western European origin) who splits this subclade, as he is showing positive for PH2967 and negative for PH4679 itself. There is also a sample with Italian paternal origin who is SNP tested Z1296+, Z1297- and STR signature suggests he probably splits J-PH4679>Z38300>Y20899. But of course, you won't see these samples on YFull (at least not yet). So by this logic, you can make the same argument, that J-PH4679 was either spread by "Urnfield" and related movements or "injected to Albania" in the Roman times. You get the idea. Pretty much all these J-L283 subclades show similar distribution: Regional subclade diversity in the western Balkans (J-Z38240 subclades more northern, while J-Z638 subclades more common among Albanians), and then isolated lineages of these subclades throughout Europe with usually no deep regional subclade diversity which would point to no regional continuity, but likely a combination of different migrations (including the Roman period).

One should also study and understand Balkans history and put things into context. Ex: The Illyrians were the first in the Balkans to be conquered by the Romans. Later, during late antiquity/early medieval migrations, the Slavic tribes heavily settled these regions, which would contribute towards a "replacement and displacement" of Y-lineages that were there before.

 

[Ghurier]

I think you mean Z38240. I've seen you made this typo before, so just wanted to point it out.

Yes indeed, thanks for pointing it.
I'm always messing around with "Z"s and "Y"s subclades name ... and I wrote my last message very quickly, without a single re-reading.

I believe your theories will not hold once we get some relevant aDNA for these subclades. We can't rely on modern distribution and YFull TMRCA estimates (which merely tell us when the lineages split, not when migrations occured)

I think, I already point this out, but basically, to create some degree of diversity you need a minimum level of migration, or at least some "diffusion".
If not, lineage are screening each other and you cannot build significant surviving diversity. Basically, an explosion of diversity == migration/expansion of the carriers.
It is hard to migrate without creating diversity, the migration need to be very quick to not let significant clades behind, or in a population poorly interacting with others during their migration.
Mobility create diversity (that will be convolved by later migrations or partially erased by later invasions).

and assume things were the same over 2000 ybp, and on top of that ignore ancient DNA! We have a ~J-Z1297* dated ~1450 BC, (where btw J-Y23094, J-Y21878, J-Z631 stem from) just north of Albania while lacking elsewhere.

And you have Z2507- in the north.
We already made this disucussion. You find this clade, cousin to Y15058 in an area where a clear Y15058 diffusion occured between J-Z1297 definition-time and the sample lifetime.
Then, this sample is not very indicative, like the Z2507-. Because we know of a convolution event that can explain both samples either with a north-south or a south-north migration.

Then, you should apply to this samples the same logic you use for discarding modern diversity. And then, you can't consider this sample because it is too "recent" compared to what you want to probe. If it was in the range 2200-1800bc it would have been more relevent.

You have two big things when you play with data :
--> Transfert function
--> Statistical noise
Modern data have a significantly better statistical noise, but a more complexe transfert function (more migrations/invasions).
Ancient DNA have a very poor Statistical noise, making it barely relevent in area where the population was significantly moving when you let pass few hundreds of years (because transfert function is already very complicated).

I know what I chose, because I didn't know a single case where diversity fails completely.
I think it was you who mentioned some R1b clades weird diversity centers, some L283-diversity center in Americas ... none of that exists.
It only shows that you don't really know how a proper diversity analysis works.
Which is not a big deal, but then it is weird to see you discarding such approach when you obviously didn't understand well this methodology.

So logic would say there was likely more than just J-PH4679 in the region, likely including J-Y23094 lineages among others.

Not really, maybe this is the conclusion you like. But diversity is not going there. And ancient DNA didn't support such conclusion, especially with one single sample, very late, compared to the clade diversification, and in an area were cousin clades diffused.

With regards to J-PH4679, it's not as "exclusive" to Albania as the YFull tree suggests. There is actually already an American sample (likely western European origin) who splits this subclade, as he is showing positive for PH2967 and negative for PH4679 itself.

PH2967+ ? Thus he is Z21045, or nearly Z21045. But PH4679- ... thus this sample is not PH4679.
Good point, it match exactly with what I'm saying.
I would place Z21045 either around north Italy or Slovenia by ~1800 BC, then the branch that will give PH4679, migrated south with the 1800-1700 BC expansion on the Adriatic coast, and started diversification way later around 1200 BC in southern Illyria.
Thus, I'm not surprised that some PH2967 will be found in western Europe if digging a bit more. Be sure there is some in France ... maybe me, who knows ? (Yes because my Z631 call is a two-SNPs* based argument ... it is not super robust yet).

*Using a two-SNPs based calls, I would also be I2a1 ... showing how a two-SNP based haplogroup can be completely wrong.

There is also a sample with Italian paternal origin who is SNP tested Z1296+, Z1297- and STR signature suggests he probably splits J-PH4679>Z38300>Y20899. But of course, you won't see these samples on YFull (at least not yet).

I discuss, and perform reasoning, with data I can consults ... not with rumored samples.
But ok, let speak about this case :
Y20899 ? Ok, then I would go for a consequence of invasion of Illyria by romans, diversification is in fact right at the good moment ~2100 BP.
But anyway, it is not a problem even for a deeper subclade. Albanians are migrating humans too, I don't understand the point you try to make here ?
Could Albanians cross the Adriatic to enter Italy ? For sure they can. And nothing avoid such thing to happen between 3200 bp and modern day.
Unless you trace the paternal origin deep enough to enter the range of the haplogroup definition-times ... I don't see how this exemple is relevent.

But some clades seems to show that clades are having hard time to exit Albania. It is related to the shape of the philogenic tree. Once in Albania, we don't see many subclades exiting ... whereas, when a clade appear in Alabania, it is embeded in a bunch of non-Albanian subclades.
This is a pattern indicating a migration toward Albania, not from Albania.

So by this logic, you can make the same argument, that J-PH4679 was either spread by "Urnfield" and related movements or "injected to Albania" in the Roman times.

Not working that way.
PH4679 --> Two pre-roman diversity event with Albanian samples. Plus, ancient DNA did in fact proves some Z638 went there by ~1500 BC.
Y82533 --> no Albanian diversity prior 2100 BP. Precedent diversity is in Italy in 1200 BP.
A J-L283 expansion in the adriatic coast occured around 1800-1700 BC (even if for some reasons it appear that you deny that), and Y86181 was not among them.
First moment we find trace of these guys is after Roman conquest, and before that the last diversity point we have is Italy. Unless going for a migration from Italy --> Albania in the range 3200-2100 BP, it sounds more reasonable to go for an arrival date around 2100 BP with the romans.
It might be proven wrong, but yet, it is the more likely.

I think people on this topic are losing from their perspective that L283 is not an Illyrian clade, Illyrian wasn't a thing in 5500 BP.
There is not reasons to belive that L283 travelled as a pack for 2000+ years before becoming Illyrians ! To be correct, such model didn't work (because lineage screening considerations).
Even if some L283 are Illyrians (and Patterson et al. 2021 proved it with a crazy high fraction of J-L283 on the adriatic coast), it didn't means that all L283 that you will found in Albania will be Illyrian lineages.

You get the idea. Pretty much all these J-L283 subclades show similar distribution: Regional subclade diversity in the western Balkans (J-Z38240 subclades more northern, while J-Z638 subclades more common among Albanians), and then isolated lineages of these subclades throughout Europe with usually no deep regional subclade diversity which would point to no regional continuity, but likely a combination of different migrations (including the Roman period).

Weird diversity analysis. We are not at all converging to the same thing.
L283 diversity is fairly homogeneous on the European continent (excluding France, Spain, and Portugal ... but they are poorly sampled countries, when better sampled their diversity will rise Again ... some YP91 are probably lurking around).
Albania didn't show strong diversity despite having a giant oversampling bias.
How do you perform diversity analyses ? Looking at Flags on Y-Full ?

In fact Z638 shows central European diversity (~Slovenia/Austria/Hungary/Slovaquia).
You find a lot of Albanian in some clades because Albania is over-sampled in Y-Full (it is a well known bias).
In non-oversampled data for Albania (FTDNA for instance), diversity in Albania is very small.
With data oversampled in UK, you manage to find diversity center for Z631 in UK ... In this case too, it is simply over-sampling bias.
In fact, what clades distribution in Albania shows is that it received a large number of contribution by L283 peoples through multiple events.

Again, remove PH4679, and your L283 fraction become the same as all other countries. The L283 clade distribution is already similar to all other country.
Therefore, it means that PH4679 has something to do with history of Albanian lands ... but that likely, the history of other clades in Albania is just an history shared by Europeans. Then each clade needs to be considered independely to identify when and how they enter Albanian land.
But not all clades share the same solution.

One should also study and understand Balkans history and put things into context. Ex: The Illyrians were the first in the Balkans to be conquered by the Romans. Later, during late antiquity/early medieval migrations, the Slavic tribes heavily settled these regions, which would contribute towards a "replacement and displacement" of Y-lineages that were there before.

And some J-L283 lineage in Albania were probably brought there by slavic peoples ... there is few very good candidates. But I won't enter this discussion too deeply, I know too well where it goes.

G.

 

[Trojet]

No, I'm not dealing with "rumored" samples. I have access to FTDNA database projects, so I can see what's out there besides the samples you see on YFull, and I was simply trying to help you out understand things better.

Anyways, your theories don't really align with current state of J-L283 knowledge or research, which among others, there is now ancient DNA samples to corroborate modern distribution. Maybe it's because you're trying too hard to "prove" you're a Celt BTW, Phylogeographer has a new writing concerning J-Z631: https://phylogeographer.com/sandzak...99-and-by-implication-j2b-z631-and-j2b-z1043/

PS. I don't think anyone implied that "all" J-L283 is Illyrian or Proto-Illyrian, or that it originated in the western Balkans. Simply, its most prolific branch, J-Z597, shows a center of diversity in the western Balkans, and later contributed (largely) to the ethnogenesis of Paleo-Balkan peoples such as the Illyrians, as it's now proven by ancient samples.

 

[torzio]

... probably, this is a model with its limitations.
However, I do read this paper, and I think it didn't says what you believe it is saying.



No, it states that there is affinity with IA-Croatia, truth to be said I expect "proper-Illyria" to show the same affinity (hard to tell without any sample). But I expect J-PH4679 to have followed the same migration patern than Y15058/Y38240, and thus this population to be very similar.



As I said, this is a possibility, I think we can fairly assume that Daunians are under either J-Y15058 or J-PH4679.
Without a clear message from modern DNA, let wait ancien DNA.


Nevertheless, here is another map with way more details, sometimes placement is made for the map to be "readable" therefore it is more to see as general idea of the migration rather than a GPS-level exact localisation of clades and diversification events.

Still no real Idea of what is related to the 5100 ybp diversification event of Z585 (working on it).
One big thing changed since the previous map, Y86181 have been replaced in Albania by Y82533 with a later arrival during Roman times.
The main reason for that is that the Y23094 diversity center is in fact in Italy. Therefore, I think this solution is the one making the most sense, with Y82533 being a later Roman injection after the conquest of Illyria.
Another argument to support that is the number density of J-L283 in Albania, if you remove J-PH4679, you basically remove most of the J-L283 in this country. And you fall back on the "background" level of J-L283 you find everywhere else in Europe.
Thus, I'm now more aligned to think that for "proper"-Illyria, the clade tracing the Illyrians is PH4679 and correspond to a north-south migration that occured likely around 1800-1700BC, with a later diversification during Illyrian Ethnogenesis around 1200bc.

Other interesting point, I noticed after finishing the map. For Z631, we have a "sort-of" coherence for thediffusion, with a western expansion around 2700-2600 bp and an eastern expansion around 2400 bp. A pre-roman spatial coherence which is hard to fit with a roman diffusion model for this clade.
The real way Y12000 as been injected in Russia is only a rough assumption. I don't know if more is known about the carrier of this haplogroup to better understand what is the migration related to this diffusion.

You placed Daunians to far south in Apulia ..............they arrived circa 1000BC on the Spur of the Italian boot ...................the map below shows you the correct place.
The map also shows you their origins as they are part of the Iapodes ( Japodes ) people ................all italian historians know about their link with the Iapodes .............I even presented the works of Roman historian strabo indicating their original towns that remained in those north Balkans parts when the Romans took them

 

[Ghurier]

No, I'm not dealing with "rumored" samples. I have access to FTDNA database projects, so I can see what's out there besides the samples you see on YFull.

Everybody can have access to FTDNA database (if it is not supposed to be the case ... its a big failure). I recently downloaded almost all group-databases to play with.
In fact, I'm most of the time using FTDNA insteed YFull data ... because for YFULL I don't have coordinates, just countries ... which is less precise.
Funny that you assumed that I used YFULL data, I use them, but not only.

Anyways, your maps and theories don't really align with current state of J-L283 knowledge of research

Can you point toward a paper you published or any paper discussing specifically L283 migrations ? If not peer-reviewed, I won't call that "knowledge".
In fact a recent Nature paper put L283 even more to the north than me ... But I guess, their peer-reviewed paper is not knowledge for you .
Therefore, I have the feeling that what you call "knowledge", is in fact the opinion of a small group of people playing with data (sometime not really understanding what they are doing), and ignoring carefully all people not aligned with their beliefs.
We could have discussed methodological points ... but you didn't speak at all about methodology, despite my very nice attempts to engage the discussion about :
-mecanisms produccing haplogroups diversity
-diversity as a probe of origin when using in-homogeneously sampled data
-...

Honnestly, when I read what you are saying, i just have cherry-picking vibes : like when you ignore a Z2507- sample and overspeak of a Z638 sample because it suits the conclusion you want to achieve, without carring about the fact that L283s sharing a 1800 BC common ancestor are found on a wide area next to this single Z638 sample.
I'm sorry, this is not a serious way of analysing data.

Apparently, you have hardtime with philogenic-tree dynamics ... in well documented cases, when conclusions derived using such method can be cross-checked, it basically never fails.
Then why not using it here ? Why favoring one-sample based analysis ? Why would be a single sample ~800 years after haplogroup definition be that relevant ?
Sorry, not taking that boat ...

which among others, we now have ancient DNA samples to corroborate modern diversity.

Indeed, then Z2507- indeed proves that Z597 center was likely around Slovenia ?
Spoiler : this argument is not proving that ! Already explained why ... strongely, you never reply, nor argument against this explanation.

Maybe it's because you're trying too hard to "prove" you're a Celt

No, I know who/what I am. I'm not my ancestors, and I don't need them to be anything ... Ancestors aren't magnifying desendants, descendants should try to magnify their ancestors.
And to my knowledge, Celts are not a currently living culture, therefore no-one could say that they are "Celt" today.
And to be even more precise, a culture is not a bijective notion with biological origins.

But, as you want to speak about me, let speak about me, I like to do that :
I have ancestors among Celts obviously, I have ancestors among Romans obviously ... and many many more cultures, probably among Illyrians too.

If my genealogic tree is to be believed (and no ladies made some "extra" on the concerned lines, I have recent ancestry around north-east France during the last ~10 generations). Then extended ancestry is going in Germany, Belgium, Italy, and Wales.

According to my autosomal DNA, the ancient population that is the closest to me is the Hallstatt culture (no surprise looking at my recent ancestry location).
Funny thing, the most closest ancient sample on a G25-PCA is in fact the well known J-Z631 from Italy .

I'm not trying anything. I use a method, and goes where it is pointing.
Roman diffusion of Z631 is like a back magic process barely making sense. You prize ancient DNA ... but you have no ancient DNA to backup such hypothesis. Then, without ancient DNA, rejecting modern diversity**, how can you build a theory ?
Strangely, none of the roman supporters are discussing the dynamical diffusion of this clade and subclades under the Roman-hypothesis.
Maybe an explanation exists, but I'ld love to see which one.

**It is weird, because if rejecting modern diversity, why ancient would be relevant ? What is the timescale you allow for diversity relevance ? In my case it is based on documented migrations vs statistic (like what I was saying about the Y15058 dudes). In your case, the criteria seems to be: "diversity going in the direction of what I want very hard to demonstrate".

I just want to stress that, despite speeking of methodology in my precent post, you just replied agressively using assumptions and trying to put an "agenda" on my back. Such technic is well known in debate ... It speaks volume about the intellectual integrity of the user !

Phylogeographer has a new writing concerning J-Z631: https://phylogeographer.com/sandzak...99-and-by-implication-j2b-z631-and-j2b-z1043/

I'll read that in few days ... Phylogeographer is doing an interesting job for our haplogroup, but in terms of data analysis his work is "young".
The way he compute diversity is "funny" to be polite. Typically, this is the noisest solution you could take to build diversity (especially in genetic).
He should decrease the philogenic tree time-resolution before computing diversity : diversity is an estimator that amplify significantly the noise, it behave very badly with high noise level ... better to "smooth" things before computing diversity.

Then, unless you reply about methodological points (about which I'll gladly give details or argument), I think I'll kindly ignore you in the near future.

G.

 

[Ghurier]

You placed Daunians to far south in Apulia ..............they arrived circa 1000BC on the Spur of the Italian boot ...................the map below shows you the correct place.

Please, carefully read my post before replying :

Nevertheless, here is another map with way more details, sometimes placement is made for the map to be "readable" therefore it is more to see as general idea of the migration rather than a GPS-level exact localisation of clades and diversification events.

I even put a disclaim because I was aware that people here have hard time to understand what is an "acceptable" level of approximation (here for display purpuse).

L283 is crazy-interesting to explore ... compared to european R1b base-kit !
But hell ... if I could have fall on an haplogroup not involved in some existential crisis for a whole country ... it would have been better.

G.