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Thread: Living DNA launching One Family One World Project in cooperation with Eupedia

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by srdceleva View Post
    it is still in beta mode and sucks at the moment. My father gets a broad eastern european grouping, which consists of Poland, the czech rep., and a few slovak samples. My sister gets Czechs lol and neither my mother or me and my brother get any sort of eastern Population(though we have high eastern euro rates in our ethnicity estimate). Im excited for living dna to do better than all These generic testing companies. At least they are trying to work with People and break down populations how they should be broken down.
    Ancestry...........another crappy site
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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    14 days to perform a simple split second database query? Or are they that horribly lacking in bandwidth?
    On top of that...14 BUSINESS DAYS??? Why business days? Do servers shut down over the weekend? Am I missing something here?
    14 business days before they'll actually may delete your profile/data. Once you ask & they acknowledge you asked, which may take a few days of "shouting" at them for them to even acknowledge the request.

    As for missing something ... it seems to be a rather crappy company.

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    nevermind, double post

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I discussed this with them and participants who upload their genome should normally be offered to have their genome analysed in exchange for a small fee. However, those who do qualify for a specific region will become part of the reference population for that region, which means that their results will be mostly from that region.

    The more I read the more LivingDNA seems like a rather unprofessional company. Comparable to 23&me and the screwup with their health testing / FDA approval a while back. However, 23&me had the benefit of running for a while before the health test issue came to light. Living DNA doesn't and they've already done a sledgehammer's worth of damage to their reputation with this seemingly poorly written OneWorld project.


    There was, after all, no mention of a fee originally. Makes one wonder what was the actual purpose of the OneWorld when it seems they had no intentions of honouring the seeming agreement in their piss-poor summary. The "matching" idea seems sort of like an "oops" response - a better offer them something sort of deal - than anything professionally thought out. It'd be available sooner than what 10 months otherwise.




    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    However, those who do qualify for a specific region will become part of the reference population for that region, which means that their results will be mostly from that region.

    So LivingDNA has no references? Nothing from the various databases out there? That's odd because they have implied - as like in the Scottish project - they are getting data from somewhere. Or was that some sort of a fib to attract interest? Either way, this makes the initial purpose of OneWorld questionable.


    Results will be mostly from that region - so does that mean references [or their relatives] won't get much in relation to secondary populations? And for people who are not related to the references how useful [or useless] is the test going to be?


    The latter is, after all, a problem with Ancestry's Genetic Communities for some people. As someone elsewhere put it people with "homogenous" ancestry - e.g. small towns, remote, not a lot of movement, etc. - don't often get a "Community" on Ancestry. And Ancestry's data is mostly composed from their clients I believe, sort of like LivingDNA's snap decision OneWorld.

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    I've heard LivingDNA won't give you your negative Y-DNA SNPs, which will be over 15,000+ SNPs for most people. I haven't been able to find a public list of all the SNPs they test for either.

    DNA companies seem to favor obscurity so their claims cannot be independently verified.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoloWarrior View Post
    So LivingDNA has no references? Nothing from the various databases out there? That's odd because they have implied - as like in the Scottish project - they are getting data from somewhere. Or was that some sort of a fib to attract interest? Either way, this makes the initial purpose of OneWorld questionable.
    Living DNA already has tens of thousands of reference samples used to differentiate the 80 regions of ancestry worldwide. The aim of the One Family Project is to further refine that to many more regions and subregions in the Old Wolrd. In order to achieve this as many samples from each region are necessary. If you don't want to contribute to this project, nobody forces you. But there is no point in joining and bitching for two weeks that you want to quit. That's very immature.

    "Results will be mostly from that region" - so does that mean references [or their relatives] won't get much in relation to secondary populations? And for people who are not related to the references how useful [or useless] is the test going to be?
    That is not clear to me yet. I know that 23andMe customers who were selected to be part of the reference population got 100% of their ancestry from that reference region. I proposed to Living DNA to have several views based on the depth of ancestry. For example, what is your ancestry in the last 300 years, or 1000 years ago or 2000 years ago, or 5000 years ago. It is theoretically possible to do this as smaller segments of inherited DNA mean older ancestry. However it is difficult to implement in practice, especially without thousands of ancient samples from each period. If Living DNA eventually implements this, being a participant to a regional project will only affect recent ancestry (under 500 years), so people could still get an idea of the percentage of, say, ancient Germanic, Celtic, Roman, Greek or Slavic ancestry they inherited. I think that is much more interesting than recent ancestry anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Living DNA already has tens of thousands of reference samples used to differentiate the 80 regions of ancestry worldwide. The aim of the One Family Project is to further refine that to many more regions and subregions in the Old Wolrd. In order to achieve this as many samples from each region are necessary. If you don't want to contribute to this project, nobody forces you. But there is no point in joining and bitching for two weeks that you want to quit. That's very immature.



    That is not clear to me yet. I know that 23andMe customers who were selected to be part of the reference population got 100% of their ancestry from that reference region. I proposed to Living DNA to have several views based on the depth of ancestry. For example, what is your ancestry in the last 300 years, or 1000 years ago or 2000 years ago, or 5000 years ago. It is theoretically possible to do this as smaller segments of inherited DNA mean older ancestry. However it is difficult to implement in practice, especially without thousands of ancient samples from each period. If Living DNA eventually implements this, being a participant to a regional project will only affect recent ancestry (under 500 years), so people could still get an idea of the percentage of, say, ancient Germanic, Celtic, Roman, Greek or Slavic ancestry they inherited. I think that is much more interesting than recent ancestry anyway.
    I like so far everything you keep saying about them. Maybe living dna isnt perfect but at least they are willing to work with people. Please help them update their ydna and mtdna descriptions. They could finish that earlier than next august.

    Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Kosovo was always listed as a separate region from Serbia. The colours were the same because the programme assigned colours randomly. They now have clearly distinct colours.

    Kosovo has now been added in the list of countries. It was an oversight of the person encoding the countries.

    NO it is not.



    Their E-V13 description doesn't even list or acknowledge KOSOVA! the highest E-V13 concentrated place. Oh wait, they do mention Serbia. Oh yea,, thats because they chose to include Kosova as part of Serbia. Again, tell them to make the change. piss poor reflection on them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Living DNA already has tens of thousands of reference samples used to differentiate the 80 regions of ancestry worldwide. The aim of the One Family Project is to further refine that to many more regions and subregions in the Old Wolrd. In order to achieve this as many samples from each region are necessary.
    I can only see that resulting in LivingDNA telling you that you are 2.3% Berlinian, which is completely pointless. It will amuse the average Joe to no end however, and that's where money is to be made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I proposed to Living DNA to have several views based on the depth of ancestry. For example, what is your ancestry in the last 300 years, or 1000 years ago or 2000 years ago, or 5000 years ago. It is theoretically possible to do this as smaller segments of inherited DNA mean older ancestry.
    Autosomal DNA completely recombines in 600-800 years. Whenever autosomal haplotypes occur it is because they are positively selected for, which means that it's very difficult to guess their age. This is likely why 23andme ancestry goes much further back than 500 years because they are comparing series of mutations that influence gene expression, some of which go back 40,000 years.

    This implies we're best off looking at single mutations, something we can do ourselves, which is probably what they fear because people will realize their recent ancestry is pointless unless you're adopted and want to know your roots, and if you go back far enough everyone is more or less identical which is not information that is of personal interest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by srdceleva View Post
    I like so far everything you keep saying about them. Maybe living dna isnt perfect but at least they are willing to work with people. Please help them update their ydna and mtdna descriptions. They could finish that earlier than next august.
    I offered several times to help them update their Y-DNA and mtDNA descriptions, but never heard back from them. They did supposedly quote my work on Eupedia (as "Hay 2017") but among what I have seen that is often quite different from what I wrote and sometimes something entirely different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I offered several times to help them update their Y-DNA and mtDNA descriptions, but never heard back from them. They did supposedly quote my work on Eupedia (as "Hay 2017") but among what I have seen that is often quite different from what I wrote and sometimes something entirely different.
    They want to keep catering to british customers and are afraid changing the descriptions will some how alienate them I think, which is ridiculous if u want to have an international customer base.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Living DNA already has tens of thousands of reference samples used to differentiate the 80 regions of ancestry worldwide. The aim of the One Family Project is to further refine that to many more regions and subregions in the Old Wolrd. In order to achieve this as many samples from each region are necessary. If you don't want to contribute to this project, nobody forces you. But there is no point in joining and bitching for two weeks that you want to quit. That's very immature.
    Sorry Maciamo, but they can't have thousands references from Poland. Ask Davidski how many academic samples from Poland exist. One hundred maybe? And for few regions only (but some of them are useless like Wroclaw sample).
    For many countries it's the same situation. We have only those samples which were published in Lazaridis, Behar or similar studies. Unless we don't know about secret testing by LivingDNA of thousands people from regional population from all over the world. You know it's bullshit. I understand you cooperate with them, but be serious...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    NO it is not.


    I meant on the map. I can't believe that they are still listing Yugoslavia as a country! Did you tell them?

    Their E-V13 description doesn't even list or acknowledge KOSOVA! the highest E-V13 concentrated place. Oh wait, they do mention Serbia. Oh yea,, thats because they chose to include Kosova as part of Serbia. Again, tell them to make the change. piss poor reflection on them.
    I am not going to contact them every time there is a mistake or omission on their site. I proposed to review their haplogroup descriptions and maps and they didn't seem to care. Their site is their responsibility. I am enough work as it is. But feel free to contact them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mlukas View Post
    Sorry Maciamo, but they can't have thousands references from Poland. Ask Davidski how many academic samples from Poland exist. One hundred maybe? And for few regions only (but some of them are useless like Wroclaw sample).
    For many countries it's the same situation. We have only those samples which were published in Lazaridis, Behar or similar studies. Unless we don't know about secret testing by LivingDNA of thousands people from regional population from all over the world. You know it's bullshit. I understand you cooperate with them, but be serious...
    I didn't say that they have thousands of samples for every country! I meant in total. The point of the project is to have at least 100 samples for each region listed. This is going to be hard for some poorer parts of Asia like some Indonesian islands or tribal groups. But in Europe it is achievable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I meant on the map. I can't believe that they are still listing Yugoslavia as a country! Did you tell them?



    I am not going to contact them every time there is a mistake or omission on their site. I proposed to review their haplogroup descriptions and maps and they didn't seem to care. Their site is their responsibility. I am enough work as it is. But feel free to contact them.
    Hi Maciamo,

    No they didn't. 2 emails in, and no response. Even addressed David Nicholson through Anthro, and he hasn't responded either. Seems unprofessional honestly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by srdceleva View Post
    They want to keep catering to british customers and are afraid changing the descriptions will some how alienate them I think, which is ridiculous if u want to have an international customer base.
    They did update all (or most) of the haplogroup descriptions since April when I proposed to help them. They did quote my work but I was not offered to review the updated descriptions and since I only saw the haplogroup descriptions that a few people shared with me, I cannot guarantee that everything is correct. For example, in the R1b-U106 description they say "Central Europe represents where two different branches of this expansion would have met again and mingled, with R-U106 (as a branch of R1b) being more common in the west of Germany, whilst R1a lineages are more common further east (Hay 2017)". They are quoting me but I never wrote that. In fact, most of the R1a in East Germany is of Slavic origin, not Germanic. The Germanic R1a is either Z284 is Scandinavia (esp. Norway) or L664 in West Germany, which is found more of less uniformly among Germanic people, and is probably more common in West Germany than East Germany. I never wrote that there were two branches of Germanic expansion from central Europe either. Proto-Germanics came carrying R1b-U106, R1a-L664 and other R1b branches (DF19, L238 and possibly some L21 and U152) and perhaps also some E-V13, G2a and J2b2a into Scandinavia c. 1700 BCE, where they mixed with the local R1a-Z284, I1 and probably also I2a2a-L801 (unless it was in Germany), where the merger of these people slowly created Germanic ethnicity and culture during the Nordic Bronze Age (1700-500 BCE).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    They did update all (or most) of the haplogroup descriptions since April when I proposed to help them. They did quote my work but I was not offered to review the updated descriptions and since I only saw the haplogroup descriptions that a few people shared with me, I cannot guarantee that everything is correct. For example, in the R1b-U106 description they say "Central Europe represents where two different branches of this expansion would have met again and mingled, with R-U106 (as a branch of R1b) being more common in the west of Germany, whilst R1a lineages are more common further east (Hay 2017)". They are quoting me but I never wrote that.
    They have to dumb things down significantly, and the main requirement is that the description leaves most people happy and satisfied. Every question customer service has to answer costs them money.

    People can't expect to pay $100 for a DNA test and get $200 worth of customer service. I expect this is why 23andme has removed most functionality, if a new tool or feature generates too many questions and complaints they simply remove it.

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    ^^ yeah it'll be hard to explain these things to Tucker Joe from west falls Missouri, especially if he starts questioning why the villages in Scotland, England, and Germany he traced his lineages back to isn't showing up in his results.
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    That is not clear to me yet. I know that 23andMe customers who were selected to be part of the reference population got 100% of their ancestry from that reference region. I proposed to Living DNA to have several views based on the depth of ancestry. For example, what is your ancestry in the last 300 years, or 1000 years ago or 2000 years ago, or 5000 years ago. It is theoretically possible to do this as smaller segments of inherited DNA mean older ancestry. However it is difficult to implement in practice, especially without thousands of ancient samples from each period. If Living DNA eventually implements this, being a participant to a regional project will only affect recent ancestry (under 500 years), so people could still get an idea of the percentage of, say, ancient Germanic, Celtic, Roman, Greek or Slavic ancestry they inherited. I think that is much more interesting than recent ancestry anyway.
    That would be an extremely good idea, maybe their 'Your Ancestry through time" maps addresses this to some extent. Breaking it down into percentages, would be better however, and far easier to understand and more interesting.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 23-12-17 at 11:19. Reason: broken tags

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    "To say thank you for your support, each uploader from now until October 31st, 2018 will soon be able to choose to see how they match and connect to other Living DNA participants. This feature is rolling out to small groups of users at a time, starting August 8th, 2018."

    Just a few days away.

    Does this mean this project will be completed at this time?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    "To say thank you for your support, each uploader from now until October 31st, 2018 will soon be able to choose to see how they match and connect to other Living DNA participants. This feature is rolling out to small groups of users at a time, starting August 8th, 2018."

    Just a few days away.

    Does this mean this project will be completed at this time?
    No, the One Family One World project will last for 5 years as there is a lot of data to collect from all over the world.

    On 8th August it will only be the "Relative Finder" function that will be activated. If I understood well, this will also allow Living DNA members (and people who uploaded their genome from another company) to compare their percentage of inheritance with other family members, like on 23andMe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    No, the One Family One World project will last for 5 years as there is a lot of data to collect from all over the world.

    On 8th August it will only be the "Relative Finder" function that will be activated. If I understood well, this will also allow Living DNA members (and people who uploaded their genome from another company) to compare their percentage of inheritance with other family members, like on 23andMe.
    Thanks for clarifying. It will be interesting to compare my LivingDNA results (the saliva sample I sent to them) to the 23andme raw data upload I sent for this one in particular.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Haplogroup R-L20
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    U5a2b1a

    Country: Sweden



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    No, the One Family One World project will last for 5 years as there is a lot of data to collect from all over the world.

    On 8th August it will only be the "Relative Finder" function that will be activated. If I understood well, this will also allow Living DNA members (and people who uploaded their genome from another company) to compare their percentage of inheritance with other family members, like on 23andMe.
    Now is the question if the »Relative Finder» function will be activated for all who signed up to the beta list or if only a selected group will have it activated from start?

  24. #99
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    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Central European
    Country: Slovakia



    A/ Living DNA: We should support such projects as the LivingDNA Global Research Project (or One Family One World) is. Not only within LivingDNA, but other renowned companies as well. There is definitely selfish business interest from the LivingDNA owners/shareholders, but where is it not? On the other hand, it helps to deepen understanding on all questions, we all are asking on our family or mankind heritage / history.

    Unfortunately, i am not able to join those projects, because of mixed heritage (and some of my "ancestral" regions do not fully genetically work either, because some of my relatives were forcibly expulsed from their homes after WWII).

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    On wider regions: I think the best division of regions (working and very logical) has Mr. Lukasz macuga, who is doing the reports on Eurogenes K36. I have no reason to do advertisement for him, but up till now I did not see better report what he is provoiding.

    especially on very difficult Central European geografical space, his regional divisions are working, and if I understand it well, he considers also historic beckground into strong account and chooses genetic regional data accordingly.

    I can only confirm that even in my difficult mixed backgroung (Glatzer Grafschaft, Orava region, Northern Slovakia, Karpatendeutsche, Western Slovakia, Croatia) his report was considerably good. And I have noticed that there is a strong logic in his regional divisions, at least in this part of Central/Eastern Europe.

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