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Thread: Ari* etymon has an PIE word for Nobility or Free Men Assembly

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    Ari* etymon has an PIE word for Nobility or Free Men Assembly

    Aristokratos : Greek term for the ancient greek Nobility.

    Arimanni : Langobardi Freeman that could take weapons.

    Aire : Old Irish term for a Freeman or a Noble.

    Multiple Ancient Germanic and Celtic personal names start with Ari* ( Ariovistus )

    With all this, i wonder why linguists stay focus on the ethnic indo-aryan derivation. For me it seems obvious that the somehow Ari* etymon was in PIE the term that design the men in arms, not necessarily the proper nobility but at least those who gonna in war.

    Especially ancient germanic speakers seems to have used a lot of the Ari* term in various context ( Männerbund, personnal names, tribe names ). If we assume Proto-Germanic in the Centum group and Proto-Indo-Iranian in the Satem group, so the word must have been common in PIE.

    Any other exemple is welcome.

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    In Greek the word 'aristos' meant litterally 'best' (and then 'bravest', 'noblest', 'morally best', 'finest' etc) and -istos is the superlative suffix.

    So, the primary meaning of the root ar- in Greek was 'good' and R.S.P. Beekes (rightly or not) doesn't consider the word IE.

    'Aristokratia' is litterally "the political system where 'the best' (aristoi) have the power (kratos)"

    In Greek sources we read that the Medes used a similar term ('arioi' in Greek sources) as an ethnonym and so did the Persians ('artaioi') [here probably two different roots are reflected ar- & arta- (?) and can have different etymologies]

    But we can't say that 'Proto-Indoeuropeans' used that or a similar term as an ethnonym.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    In Greek the word 'aristos' meant litterally 'best' (and then 'bravest', 'noblest', 'morally best', 'finest' etc) and -istos is the superlative suffix.

    So, the primary meaning of the root ar- in Greek was 'good' and R.S.P. Beekes (rightly or not) doesn't consider the word IE.

    'Aristokratia' is litterally "the political system where 'the best' (aristoi) have the power (kratos)"

    In Greek sources we read that the Medes used a similar term ('arioi' in Greek sources) as an ethnonym and so did the Persians ('artaioi') [here probably two different roots are reflected ar- & arta- (?) and can have different etymologies]

    But we can't say that 'Proto-Indoeuropeans' used that or a similar term as an ethnonym.
    Hey ! Nice feedback. I dont think PIEans used Ari* has an ethnonym either but more has a social status. If it was an ethnonym so the word would be way more spread in sister cultures. But even in Avesta or Rigveda seems more like Arya have a status meaning like the Nobility or the Freeman assembly that vote the King or the Raj* and goes to war. And for that meaning, we have exemple in a lot of sister languages and cultures from the IE world.

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    Wow wow wow

    there more many explanations about the term Αρειοι Aryan

    1 is the already described above, the nobles Αριστοι

    2 the dwellers of Αρειανη Ariana an area somewhere in Afganistan probably connected with word Arid Greek Αρυς αραιος

    3
    the Medes, do not remember if Herodotus or Xenophon mention about Medeia of Colchis and the previous name of Medes was Aryan Αρειοι

    the expand of the above gives solutions and problem
    !!!! the problem
    here has to do with root,

    a) if Ar means horseman and Cappadokia land of horses, so Aryan means horseman (consider marcomani, God Mars)
    remember horse owners had a higher social class

    b) if Ar is connected with Homeric Αορ Aor (bowstring) and it means ar-chers even Greek god ΑΡΗΣ and male gender from Ανηρ το ρεν
    remember in Mycenean social system there is no Noble that could not hold guns,
    Nobility had to do with ability to serve King in army
    or to protect wider family from outside
    2 kinds of nobility
    a given by King to serve state
    b given by father to claim and rule family

    considering the above and knowing that Scythians means shooters (archers) and conectivity of Scythians with Iranic and especially Medes who Had previous name Areioi (was it inner name? an esonyme)
    then
    ! the word might also archers, Elite warrior class
    !! Ariana as homeland of Aryan people
    !!! by time ment noble, Or from the begin ment Noble and has nothing to do with rest?

    remember
    the ultimate authority of ancient Atheneans was named ΑΡΕΙΟΣ ΠΑΓΟΣ, Aryan strong stability, or the correct is Aryan table comparing with round table
    (Παγος from virb πυγνημι -->πυγμη παγος παγιωσις πακτωσις πηξις etc. modern παγκος)
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Well here is a theory that I find very interesting : Levant Neolithic influenced Iran Chalcolithic which influenced the Steppe, Aryan has an Afro-Asiatic origin Oh if it was true, the irony.

    In the wiktionary entry about arya, after various other etymologies of the word, a last theory is mentioned: "Oswald Szemerényi has suggested that *arya- is a loanword from an Ugaritic word meaning "kinsmen", from Proto-Afro-Asiatic *ħər ‎(“free, noble”)"

    Actually, the Ugaritic word noted by Szemerényi is ’ary 'kinsman', from a different root (*ʔar-), but if we see the meaning of the terms derived from the Afro-Asiatic root proposed above, one is surprised by their close similarity with the meanings of the Indo-European terms.

    From A. Bomhard's Afrasian Comparative Vocabulary (2014):

    Proto-Afrasian *ħar- ‘(vb.) to be superior, to be higher in status or rank, to be above or over; (n.) nobleman, master, chief, superior;

    (adj.) free-born, noble’:

    Semitic: Proto-Semitic *ħar-ar- ‘to be free-born, to be or become free, to set free’, *ħar(r)-/*ħur(r)- ‘noble, free-born’ > Hebrew ḥōr ‘noble’; Arabic ḥurr ‘noble, free-born; free, independent’, ḥarra ‘to liberate, to free, to set free, to release, to emancipate’, ḥurrīya ‘freedom, liberty, independence, unrestraint, license’; Aramaic ḥərar ‘to be or become free’; Ugaritic ḥrr ‘free’; Sabaean ḥrr ‘freemen, free-born men’; Geez / Ethiopic ḥarāwi ‘free-born, nobleman’, ḥarāwənnā ‘freedom’, ḥarənnat ‘freedom’; Tigrinya ḥara ‘free’, ḥarənnät ‘freedom’; Tigre ḥara ‘free; freedom’; Amharic hurr ‘free’; Gurage hurru bālä ‘to become free, to set free’.

    Egyptian ḥry ‘chief, master, overseer, superior’, ḥr ‘on, upon, over’, ḥrw ‘upper part, top’; Coptic hi- [xi-] (< *ḥaryaw) ‘on, in, at’, hray [xrai] ‘upper part’.

    Omotic: North Omotic: Yemsa / Janjero herašo ‘chief, ruler’, herašo ‘chieftainship, rule’.

    We can see how the concept of freedom is often equivalent with that of nobility in these cognates, and Hebrew ḥōr 'noble' is also translated 'free man' (see here), but the Hebrew term ḥērūt 'freedom' comes from Aramaic/Syriac ḥēr 'free' (see here). In Arabic ḥurr means 'free' (opposed to ‛abd 'slave') but also 'noble, good'. For instance, ḥurr al-kalām refers to a speech of high literary quality, not to 'free speech'. The feminine ḥurrah may simply mean 'lady' and ḥurr 'gentleman'. As F. Rosenthal observes (here): "This usage of ḥurr had its origin in the general human inclination to ascribe all bad qualities to the slave and his miserable lot, and all good qualities to those who were legally free men."

    http://new-indology.blogspot.com/201...-cognates.html

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    I think that Ugaretic 'arya' cognates with Greek Αρχ-ων meaning high ruler, top commander, master, also First-start-begining
    Αρχαι plural meaning principals, values if its personal, and authorities if it is for public-common-state, but Αρχη means start
    Arch-angel first-high class angel
    Arc-Devil same
    Αρχ-ιερευς top priest compare arcbishop
    Αρχ-ηγος chief leader

    arch- meaning he is free from law, above the law
    and all others must obey him

    I really do not know if Αρ and Aρχ have same root
    cause then Αρειος Παγος could also be Αρχειος Παγος (first table, chief table)
    And
    Greek Aristos Αριστος is the ultimate degree of αγαθος

    Αγαθος good (same root for God)
    Αμεινων better
    Αριστος = Best

    that is what confuses me
    what common can have the word Αριστος best with Αρειανη (Ariana)
    And with word Αρμα - chariot Αρ-ης-Mars
    and with Medes Αριοι
    probably you connect them 2 but not more


    Ηροδοτος Πολυμνεια
    herodotos Polymneia

    Αριοι δε τοξοσιν μεν εσκευασμενοι εσαν Μηδηκοισι
    τα δε αλλα καταπερ Βακτριοι

    Aryan archers were Medes
    the rest were Bactrians

    Remember Τοξον = Bow and Arc in architecture like Arc de triumph
    but in Homeric Bow = Αορ Aor from the string Αορτη


    BUT in Ηροδοτου ΘΑΛΕΙΑ THALEIA

    Παρθοι δε και Χορασμιοι και Σογδοι και Αρειοι
    τριακοσια ταλαντα

    Partans and Chorasmioi and Sogdians and Aryans
    300 talants


    on a second thought the term Ar exists also in words like Ar-amaic but also Ar-menia as Arianes the Thracians, Arideoi
    but also as Ararat - Urartu (Greek ορος = high mountain)
    Last edited by Yetos; 29-12-17 at 23:36.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Aristokratos : Greek term for the ancient greek Nobility.

    Arimanni : Langobardi Freeman that could take weapons.

    Aire : Old Irish term for a Freeman or a Noble.

    Multiple Ancient Germanic and Celtic personal names start with Ari* ( Ariovistus )

    With all this, i wonder why linguists stay focus on the ethnic indo-aryan derivation. For me it seems obvious that the somehow Ari* etymon was in PIE the term that design the men in arms, not necessarily the proper nobility but at least those who gonna in war.

    Especially ancient germanic speakers seems to have used a lot of the Ari* term in various context ( Männerbund, personnal names, tribe names ). If we assume Proto-Germanic in the Centum group and Proto-Indo-Iranian in the Satem group, so the word must have been common in PIE.

    Any other exemple is welcome.
    The original word for Albanian is "Arbër". A famous 11th century albanian noble family is called thr Arianiti famility.

    Ari in albanian means gold as it does in many other indo european
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The original word for Albanian is "Arbër". A famous 11th century albanian noble family is called thr Arianiti famility.
    Ari in albanian means gold as it does in many other indo european
    Yes i remember the Arianiti familly in the Skanderberg time, and Arbëresh was the original ethnonym of the albanian before the popular term Shqip take the place, we can again found this origin in the albanian personal name Arben. If i recall good albanians from south italy that run away the turks still call themselves Arberesh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Well here is a theory that I find very interesting : Levant Neolithic influenced Iran Chalcolithic which influenced the Steppe, Aryan has an Afro-Asiatic origin Oh if it was true, the irony.
    In the wiktionary entry about arya, after various other etymologies of the word, a last theory is mentioned: "Oswald Szemerényi has suggested that *arya- is a loanword from an Ugaritic word meaning "kinsmen", from Proto-Afro-Asiatic *ħər ‎(“free, noble”)"
    Actually, the Ugaritic word noted by Szemerényi is ’ary 'kinsman', from a different root (*ʔar-), but if we see the meaning of the terms derived from the Afro-Asiatic root proposed above, one is surprised by their close similarity with the meanings of the Indo-European terms.
    From A. Bomhard's Afrasian Comparative Vocabulary (2014):
    Proto-Afrasian *ħar- ‘(vb.) to be superior, to be higher in status or rank, to be above or over; (n.) nobleman, master, chief, superior;
    (adj.) free-born, noble’:
    Semitic: Proto-Semitic *ħar-ar- ‘to be free-born, to be or become free, to set free’, *ħar(r)-/*ħur(r)- ‘noble, free-born’ > Hebrew ḥōr ‘noble’; Arabic ḥurr ‘noble, free-born; free, independent’, ḥarra ‘to liberate, to free, to set free, to release, to emancipate’, ḥurrīya ‘freedom, liberty, independence, unrestraint, license’; Aramaic ḥərar ‘to be or become free’; Ugaritic ḥrr ‘free’; Sabaean ḥrr ‘freemen, free-born men’; Geez / Ethiopic ḥarāwi ‘free-born, nobleman’, ḥarāwənnā ‘freedom’, ḥarənnat ‘freedom’; Tigrinya ḥara ‘free’, ḥarənnät ‘freedom’; Tigre ḥara ‘free; freedom’; Amharic hurr ‘free’; Gurage hurru bālä ‘to become free, to set free’.
    Egyptian ḥry ‘chief, master, overseer, superior’, ḥr ‘on, upon, over’, ḥrw ‘upper part, top’; Coptic hi- [xi-] (< *ḥaryaw) ‘on, in, at’, hray [xrai] ‘upper part’.
    Omotic: North Omotic: Yemsa / Janjero herašo ‘chief, ruler’, herašo ‘chieftainship, rule’.
    We can see how the concept of freedom is often equivalent with that of nobility in these cognates, and Hebrew ḥōr 'noble' is also translated 'free man' (see here), but the Hebrew term ḥērūt 'freedom' comes from Aramaic/Syriac ḥēr 'free' (see here). In Arabic ḥurr means 'free' (opposed to ‛abd 'slave') but also 'noble, good'. For instance, ḥurr al-kalām refers to a speech of high literary quality, not to 'free speech'. The feminine ḥurrah may simply mean 'lady' and ḥurr 'gentleman'. As F. Rosenthal observes (here): "This usage of ḥurr had its origin in the general human inclination to ascribe all bad qualities to the slave and his miserable lot, and all good qualities to those who were legally free men."
    http://new-indology.blogspot.com/201...-cognates.html
    The thing is, with the current genetic data that we have, one could also argue that by the Kura-Araxes culture times, some steppic loanwords spring in the middle-eastern elite, like the Mitanni. I remember also once in Eupedia someone made a link between the Ari* term and Uralic and Altaic loanwords were the Ari* term means something like be a Slave. I can't discuss of linguistic more often because i'm not linguist, but i'm pretty sur Semitic languages and Afro-Asiatic are very two different things that linguists have to figure it out and that the Afro-Asiatic group is something like Indo-Uralo-Altaic. Before 2000, historians had a very very Middle-Eastern bias in every type of studies, whatever it was archeology, linguistic, etc. My brother, study languages and when i once talk a little about indo-european languages his only thing was to repeat that it originally comes from Middle-East, without all the knowledge that comes from the 2000's and especially the genetic link that we make between Yamnaya and the spread of indo-european languages. He was absolutely not aware of that theory, meaning before we knew what we knew, everyone look at the Kurgan Hypothesis as a kid thing, sirens on horse as some says, well seems that they were all very wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Well here is a theory that I find very interesting : Levant Neolithic influenced Iran Chalcolithic which influenced the Steppe, Aryan has an Afro-Asiatic origin Oh if it was true, the irony.

    In the wiktionary entry about arya, after various other etymologies of the word, a last theory is mentioned: "Oswald Szemerényi has suggested that *arya- is a loanword from an Ugaritic word meaning "kinsmen", from Proto-Afro-Asiatic *ħər ‎(“free, noble”)"

    Actually, the Ugaritic word noted by Szemerényi is ’ary 'kinsman', from a different root (*ʔar-), but if we see the meaning of the terms derived from the Afro-Asiatic root proposed above, one is surprised by their close similarity with the meanings of the Indo-European terms.

    From A. Bomhard's Afrasian Comparative Vocabulary (2014):

    Proto-Afrasian *ħar- ‘(vb.) to be superior, to be higher in status or rank, to be above or over; (n.) nobleman, master, chief, superior;

    (adj.) free-born, noble’:

    Semitic: Proto-Semitic *ħar-ar- ‘to be free-born, to be or become free, to set free’, *ħar(r)-/*ħur(r)- ‘noble, free-born’ > Hebrew ḥōr ‘noble’; Arabic ḥurr ‘noble, free-born; free, independent’, ḥarra ‘to liberate, to free, to set free, to release, to emancipate’, ḥurrīya ‘freedom, liberty, independence, unrestraint, license’; Aramaic ḥərar ‘to be or become free’; Ugaritic ḥrr ‘free’; Sabaean ḥrr ‘freemen, free-born men’; Geez / Ethiopic ḥarāwi ‘free-born, nobleman’, ḥarāwənnā ‘freedom’, ḥarənnat ‘freedom’; Tigrinya ḥara ‘free’, ḥarənnät ‘freedom’; Tigre ḥara ‘free; freedom’; Amharic hurr ‘free’; Gurage hurru bālä ‘to become free, to set free’.

    Egyptian ḥry ‘chief, master, overseer, superior’, ḥr ‘on, upon, over’, ḥrw ‘upper part, top’; Coptic hi- [xi-] (< *ḥaryaw) ‘on, in, at’, hray [xrai] ‘upper part’.

    Omotic: North Omotic: Yemsa / Janjero herašo ‘chief, ruler’, herašo ‘chieftainship, rule’.

    We can see how the concept of freedom is often equivalent with that of nobility in these cognates, and Hebrew ḥōr 'noble' is also translated 'free man' (see here), but the Hebrew term ḥērūt 'freedom' comes from Aramaic/Syriac ḥēr 'free' (see here). In Arabic ḥurr means 'free' (opposed to ‛abd 'slave') but also 'noble, good'. For instance, ḥurr al-kalām refers to a speech of high literary quality, not to 'free speech'. The feminine ḥurrah may simply mean 'lady' and ḥurr 'gentleman'. As F. Rosenthal observes (here): "This usage of ḥurr had its origin in the general human inclination to ascribe all bad qualities to the slave and his miserable lot, and all good qualities to those who were legally free men."

    http://new-indology.blogspot.com/201...-cognates.html
    Very interesting comparison, though to me a bit far-fetched. However, shouldn't a possible source of the loanword be found in much older times, maybe as far back as Proto-Semitic? Ugaritic is regarded to be contemporary with Hittite, Ancient Greek or Indic. It seems increasingly likely that a common Late PIE didn't exist any further than the Chalcolithic and was certainly broken into several languages by 2,500 BC, when Semitic languages were still apparently very close to each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Ari in albanian means gold as it does in many other indo european
    This has no relation with the root *ari-, *aryo-. Albanian "ari" actually means "bear", doesn't it? But "ar", "gold", comes directly and through regular sound changes from Latin "aurum" (> *aur), which is a much more plausible explanation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    This has no relation with the root *ari-, *aryo-. Albanian "ari" actually means "bear", doesn't it? But "ar", "gold", comes directly and through regular sound changes from Latin "aurum" (> *aur), which is a much more plausible explanation.
    The lack of the Latin diphthong 'au' is typical for the Albanian and the Western Romance languages,opposed to the Southern Italian and Romanian dialects,see the R. aur,taur vs. A. ar,tar.
    Still,this term exists,along with others that don't have any diphthongs,in the so-called rhotacized dialects,which is the speech with the most additional Western Romance,Albanian features and n-r shifts amongst the Northern Romanian.
    In contrast to Wallachian,that has the least,see riNichi(kidney), from reNiculus ,opposed to Northern Romanian raRunchi.

    https://books.google.ro/books?id=uUl...talian&f=false
    Last edited by Litovoi; 30-12-17 at 15:11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    This has no relation with the root *ari-, *aryo-. Albanian "ari" actually means "bear", doesn't it? But "ar", "gold", comes directly and through regular sound changes from Latin "aurum" (> *aur), which is a much more plausible explanation.
    Yes ariu means bear, but in indo european cult there was a Bear tabboo that you couldnt reffer to bears directly. The english word bear comes from Proto-Germanic *bero, literally "the brown (one)".

    Most indo european lamguages word for bear are like this.

    Its very possible that the reason the word for bear is Ariu is because of the bear taboo, i.e. The Gold One

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Very interesting comparison, though to me a bit far-fetched. However, shouldn't a possible source of the loanword be found in much older times, maybe as far back as Proto-Semitic? Ugaritic is regarded to be contemporary with Hittite, Ancient Greek or Indic. It seems increasingly likely that a common Late PIE didn't exist any further than the Chalcolithic and was certainly broken into several languages by 2,500 BC, when Semitic languages were still apparently very close to each other.
    No, the word has a reconstructed proto-Afro Asiatic root *ħar, Semitic languages as well as Egyptian and Omotic (an extremely divergent branch in East Africa) all have the derived word with the same meaning; given that Afro-Asiaitc is really old (older than PIE by six millennia) I see it very likely to be a borrowing from Afro Asiatic (AA) to IE, there is linguistic evidence that AA languages influenced Elamite and Dravidian (here) both languages associated with Iran (a fact in the case of Elamite), we know from Lazaridis et al (genetic structure of the world's first farmers) that Iran Chalcolithic can be modelled as a mixture of the previous Iran Neolithic, CHG, and Levantine Neolithic, and we know that Steppe EBA can be modelled as EHG and Iran Chalcolithic, Levantine Neolithic lineages spread in the same areas that AA speakers would dominate, and they all have significant amounts of this ancestry, there is linguistic evidence that AA languages spread to Africa with farming (here).

    I'll post them again:

    Proto-Afrasian *ħar- ‘(vb.) to be superior, to be higher in status or rank, to be above or over; (n.) nobleman, master, chief, superior;

    (adj.) free-born, noble’:

    Semitic: Proto-Semitic *ħar-ar- ‘to be free-born, to be or become free, to set free’, *ħar(r)-/*ħur(r)- ‘noble, free-born’ > Hebrew ḥōr ‘noble’; Arabic ḥurr ‘noble, free-born; free, independent’, ḥarra ‘to liberate, to free, to set free, to release, to emancipate’, ḥurrīya ‘freedom, liberty, independence, unrestraint, license’; Aramaic ḥərar ‘to be or become free’; Ugaritic ḥrr ‘free’; Sabaean ḥrr ‘freemen, free-born men’; Geez / Ethiopic ḥarāwi ‘free-born, nobleman’, ḥarāwənnā ‘freedom’, ḥarənnat ‘freedom’; Tigrinya ḥara ‘free’, ḥarənnät ‘freedom’; Tigre ḥara ‘free; freedom’; Amharic hurr ‘free’; Gurage hurru bālä ‘to become free, to set free’.

    Egyptian ḥry ‘chief, master, overseer, superior’, ḥr ‘on, upon, over’, ḥrw ‘upper part, top’; Coptic hi- [xi-] (< *ḥaryaw) ‘on, in, at’, hray [xrai] ‘upper part’.

    Omotic: North Omotic: Yemsa / Janjero herašo ‘chief, ruler’, herašo ‘chieftainship, rule’.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Johane Derite's Avatar
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    Also the word "Arë" means field/land in albanian.

    Agro as in agriculture means field also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Yes ariu means bear, but in indo european cult there was a Bear tabboo that you couldnt reffer to bears directly. The english word bear comes from Proto-Germanic *bero, literally "the brown (one)". Most indo european lamguages word for bear are like this. Its very possible that the reason the word for bear is Ariu is because of the bear taboo, i.e. The Gold One
    Some Indo-Europeans seem to have lost this taboo or didn't take it so seriously, because Latin "ursus", Greek "artos" and Albanian "ari" do look like they came directly from the root of the animal name "bear" in PIE, not from any euphemism or pseudonym, i.e. from *hrtkos. I can see Albanian "ari" coming from that. Wikitionary proposes that it comes from a back-formation from plural "arinj", since the Old Albanian "arth" (artkos > artos > arth) had the --th being misinterpreted as a diminutive suffix. Also, I don't think that "aurum" or its descendants like "ar" could have any relationship with the root *ari-, *aryo-o, because through the regular sound rules of Latin it does seem rather that "aurum" was one of the many situations where Classical Latin rhotacized Old Latin "s" or "z", so the word was actually *auzom in Proto-Italic and is probably more related and semantically close to *h2ews, "to dawn, glow, enlighten".

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    No, the word has a reconstructed proto-Afro Asiatic root *ħar, Semitic languages as well as Egyptian and Omotic (an extremely divergent branch in East Africa) all have the derived word with the same meaning; given that Afro-Asiaitc is really old (older than PIE by six millennia) I see it very likely to be a borrowing from Afro Asiatic (AA) to IE, there is linguistic evidence that AA languages influenced Elamite and Dravidian (here) both languages associated with Iran (a fact in the case of Elamite), we know from Lazaridis et al (genetic structure of the world's first farmers) that Iran Chalcolithic can be modelled as a mixture of the previous Iran Neolithic, CHG, and Levantine Neolithic, and we know that Steppe EBA can be modelled as EHG and Iran Chalcolithic, Levantine Neolithic lineages spread in the same areas that AA speakers would dominate, and they all have significant amounts of this ancestry, there is linguistic evidence that AA languages spread to Africa with farming (here)..
    Ah, now that really makes sense. That is a fascinating hypothesis for us to investigate further. It'd be really nice if we found other reliable AA loanwords in PIE that demonstrated to us the pattern of vowel and consonant changes and adaptations from an AA language to a possible Iranian Chalcolithic intermediary and then to IE. However, we would still have to be lucky to have an AA loanword that happened to come from the same AA language branch as the derived form of *ħar. I would bet that this language was not Semitic not even Proto-Semitic, but a previous Afro-Asiatic perhaps related to Semitic or even to Egyptian, since the Semitic-speaking tribes proper seem to really pop up in the Fertile Crescent only when Yamnaya was already a mature culture.

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    Elite member IronSide's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Ah, now that really makes sense. That is a fascinating hypothesis for us to investigate further. It'd be really nice if we found other reliable AA loanwords in PIE that demonstrated to us the pattern of vowel and consonant changes and adaptations from an AA language to a possible Iranian Chalcolithic intermediary and then to IE. However, we would still have to be lucky to have an AA loanword that happened to come from the same AA language branch as the derived form of *ħar. I would bet that this language was not Semitic not even Proto-Semitic, but a previous Afro-Asiatic perhaps related to Semitic or even to Egyptian, since the Semitic-speaking tribes proper seem to really pop up in the Fertile Crescent only when Yamnaya was already a mature culture.
    But from where did Semitic come from ? Bronze Age Levant differs from its predecessor in having a significant portion of ancestry from Caucasus.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Right, but most subclades of J1-P58 are downstream of Z2331, tmrca is 5800 ybp, which may be the date for proto-Semitic,

    Bayesian phylogenetic analysis of Semitic languages identifies an Early Bronze Age origin of Semitic in the Near East.


    The Iran Chalcolithic/Caucasus ancestry in Bronze age Levant might have been a result of Semitic people migrating from the north east, this blogger I think got it right on the Semitic homeland.

    Mathildas Anthropology Blog: Proto Semitic; dating and locating it.
    The Levant Neolithic advance that was detected in Iran Chalcolithic might have also gave rise to Semitic in Caucasus, but the frequency of the Levant Neo might have been higher in the proto-Semitic population and thus explaining its clear membership in the AA family.

    Lexical similarities between Semitic and Indo-European:

    http://grzegorj.w.interia.pl/lingwen/iesem3.html

    Akk. appāru ‘wild boar’ Ger. Eber, OE eofor < *ebura-, Lat. aper, Pol. wieprz ‘boar’, Greek kápros
    Arab. ˀaḥadun, ˀwāḥidun ‘one’, ḥidatun ‘be the only one’ (the root ḥid- ~ ḥad-)
    • Pol. jeden ‘one’ < IE *ed-oinos;
    • Pol. dziewięć, Gr. ennéa < IE *ed-newm̥ ‘nine’
    Arab. ˀakara ‘to plough’, Hbr. ˀikkār ‘farmer with no own land’, Akk. ikkaru, inkaru ‘(little) farmer, ploughman’ (? < Sum. engar) Engl. acre (formerly ‘field’), Ger. Acker ‘field’ (formerly ‘meadow’), Lat. ager ‘field, ploughland’, Gr. agrós, Skr. ájra- ‘pasture; field’; usually interpreted as IE *aǵro- from the root *aǵ- ‘to drive (cattle)’
    Arab. ˀalfun ‘thousand’, Akk. alpu ‘cattle’, Phoenician ˀ-l-p ‘ox’ Engl. calf, Ger. Kalb < PG *kalba- (referred, probably incorrectly, to IE *gel-bh- ‘to swell’, cf. Lat. globus ‘globe’)
    Arab. ˀarḍun, Hbr. ˀereṣ ‘earth’, Akk. erṣetu Engl. earth < *erþō, but also Gr. erā and Welsh erw ‘field’
    Arab. ˁanzatun ‘goat’, Akk. enzu, ezzu, azzatu, ḫazzatu the hesitation k- ~ 0- similar like in Akk. ḫ- ~ 0-:
    • Pol. koza < IE *koǵā, Alb. keth, kedhi ‘kid’ (cf. Engl. kid), OE hǣcen (see also Tatar käǯä, Chuv. kačaga);
    • without k-: Skr. ajā́, Lith. ožỹs, ožkà;
    • Gr. aĩks, D aigós, Arm. ayc, Skr. eḍa- ‘kind of sheep’, Av. izaēna- ‘of leather’
    Arab. ˁaqrabun ‘scorpion’, Akk. aqrabu Engl. crab, Ger. Krabbe and Krebs, Gr. kárabos ‘crab’ and skorpiós
    Ugaritic ˁ-ṯ-t-r-t ‘Ashtarte – Ishtar (goddess)’, Phoenician ˁ-š-t-r-t (hence Arab. ˁaštarūtu), Akk. ištaru < *ˁiṯtar- < *ˁičtar-
    • Gr. ástēr ‘star’, Lat. stella < *sterela, Engl. star < steorra, Ger. Stern < sterno < IE *H2ster-;
    • possibly Engl. iron, Ger. Eisen < *īsarna- (from Celtic)
    Arab. baˁlun ‘lord; husband; sir’, Hbr. baˁal ‘sir; god's name’ Celtic Bel ‘god's name’, Slavic bol- ‘more’ (cf. Pol. Bolesław), Skr. balin- ‘strong, powerful’, Gr. bélteros ‘better’, Frisian pall ‘strong, hard’, Lat. dē-bilis ‘weak’
    Hbr. barzel ‘iron’, Akk. parzillu (in other AA languages the same root denotes other metals, e.g. Egyptian b-j-ˀ ‘copper’, Chadic and Cushitic bir- ‘iron’, ‘silver’ or ‘metal’ in common)
    • Lat. ferrum < *fersom ~ *fersilom;
    • with a shift and a meaning change Pol. srebro ‘silver’ < PS *serbro, Lith. sidãbras, prus. sirablan, Engl. silver, Ger. Silber, Goth. silubr; bask. zilhar;
    • perhaps also Gr. sídēros ‘iron’, Dor. sídāros (cf. the Lith. form!)
    Arab. burrun ‘wheat’, Hbr. bār ‘threshed grain’
    • Pol. perz ‘wild wheat, Triticum repens’ < pyrь, OCS pyro ‘spelt, Triticum spelta’, OE fyrs ‘wheat-grass’, Gr. pȳrós ‘wheat’, Old Lith. pūras ‘grain of wheat’;
    • maybe also Pol. ber, gen. bru < PS bъrъ ‘a gender of millet, Setaria sp, Panicum miliaceum or Milium effusum’
    Akk. dunnunu ‘fortified’
    • Engl. down ‘sand-drift’ < OE dūn ‘hill’ < *dūna-, a Germanic borrowing from Celtic dunum ‘stronghold’;
    • the same in PG *tūnaz > Engl. town, Ger. Zaun ‘fence’
    Arab. darkun, darakun ‘way, round’, Hbr. derek̲ ‘way’ Pol. droga ‘way’, Russ. doróga < PS *dórga < IE *dhorHg- without convincing IE etymology
    Arab. dārun ‘house’, dūrun ‘houses’, dāˀiratun ‘circle’ Engl. thorp, Ger. Dorf < PG *þurp-, Lat. turba ‘mob’, Gr. túrbē ‘confusion’; Engl. twirl < PG *þweril-
    Akk. dūru ‘long time’ Lat. dūrāre ‘to endure, to persist’, skąd Ger. Dauer ‘duration’
    Arab. d̲irāˁun ‘arm’, Hbr. zərōăˁ Engl. steer < PG *steur-
    Akk. epūšu ‘sacrifice, offering’ Lat. opus, D operis < *opes-is ‘work’, OE efnan ‘to make’ < *ōbjan < *ōp- ~ *op- ‘offering’, Skr. apas ‘work’
    Akk. gadū ‘kid’, Arab. gadjun Engl. goat, Goth. gaits, Lat. haedus (cf. also ˁanzatun above)
    Arab. gamalun, gamlun ‘camel’, Hbr. gāmāl, pl. gəmallīm, Akk. gammalu
    • Engl. camel < Lat. camelus, Gr. kamēlos ‘camel’, Russ. komolyj ‘hornless’;
    • Lith. kumelỹs ‘horse’, kumẽlė ‘mare’, Latv. kumē ̧ļš ‘foal’, Skr. kumārá- ‘baby, son, child’;
    • Lat. caballus ‘horse’, Pol. kobyła ‘mare’, OTurk. käväl, Pers. kaval ‘swift horse’;
    • Lat. cabō, gen. cabōnis ‘horse’, Fin. hepo ‘steed’, hevonen ‘horse’;
    • Pruss. camnet ‘horse’, Pol. koń < PS *kom(o)nь (cf. komonica ‘birdfoot trefoil, Lotus’) < *kamni-
    Hbr. gal ‘wave; spring’ (in Chadic and Cushitic sim. ‘river, lake’) Engl. well, Ger. Quelle ‘spring’ without IE etymology
    Arab. ġaranun ‘eagle’, Akk. urinnu, erū Hittite ḫara(n), OE earn, Ger. Aar, Swedish örn, Ger. Adler < *edel-ar ‘a noble bird of pray’ < *arnu-, *arōn ‘eagle, bird of pray’, Pol. orzeł ‘eagle’ < PS *orьlъ < *orilo-, Gr. órnīs, órnīth- ‘bird’
    Arab. ġirnīqun, ġurnūqun ‘crane’
    • Engl. crane, Gr. géranos < IE *gerH-no-;
    • Pol. żuraw < *žeravjь, Lith. gérvė, Lat. grūs < *gerH-w-
    Arab. ġurābun ‘raven’, Akk. āribu, ēribu, ḫērebu ‘raven, crow’, Hbr. ˁōrēb̲ ‘raven’
    • Engl. crow (echoic?);
    • raven < PG *xrabnaz, Lat. corvus, Gr. kóraks
    Arab. ḫuffun ‘paw, foot; shoe, slipper’ Engl. hoof < PG *xuf-, Pol. kopyto ‘hoof’ with unclear -yt-, Skr. śapha < IE *ḱopH-
    Arab. ḫarīfun ‘autumn’, Akk. ḫarpu
    • Engl. harvest, Ger. Herbst ‘autumn’ < PG *xarbista < IE *karp- with untypical -a-;
    • also Lat. carpere ‘to pick fruit’, Gr. karpós ‘fruit’;
    • unclear reference to Engl. harp, Ger. Harfe < PG *xarpō
    Akk. ḫussu ‘reed hut’ Engl. house < PG *xūs
    Ugar. ḥrt ‘to plough’, Hbr. ḥrš, Akad. erēšu ‘till land’ Hitt. ḫaršawar ‘tillage, agriculture’, ḫarš- ‘to tillage without the help of an animal’ (< IE *Har-s- ?)
    Arab. kalbun ‘dog’ Hitt. ḫuelpi ‘newborn animal’, Engl. whelp < PG *xwelp-, Welsh colwyn
    Arab. labwat-, labāt- ‘lioness’, Akk. labbu (labˀu, lābu) ‘lion’, Hbr. poet. lāb̲īˀ (together with normal ˀarjē < *ˀarwaj); Hbr. lajiš, Arab. lajṯun, lājiṯun (maybe contamination of the previous and *najṯu- > Akk. nēšu, but also Arab. nahhāsun, nahūsun, minhasun) Pol. lew < PS lьvъ < OHG lëwo < Lat. leō, Gr. léōn, līs
    Arab. lawḥun ‘lath, board’, lawḥatun ‘shield’ Engl. lath < OE *læþþ and lætt (from Nordic), without etymology
    Arab. lisānun ‘tongue, language’, laḥwasa ‘to lick’, Hbr. lāšōn ‘tongue, language’, lāqaq ‘to lick’
    • Engl. tongue, Goth. tungo, Lat. lingua, Old Lat. dingua, Skr. juhū-, jihvā-, Avestan hizū, hizvā, Pol. język, Pruss. insuwis, Lith. liežùvis, Gr. glõtta, glõssa, glátta, maybe also Lat. gingīva ‘gum (of a tooth)’, Gr. gamphēlaí ‘muzzle, mouth’;
    • Pol. lizać ‘to lick’, Lith. liẽžti, Skr. lḗḍhi, líhati, Gr. leíkhō, Lat. lingō, Engl. lick
    Arab. malaga ‘to suck’ Engl. milk < PG *mel(u)ka-, borrowed to Slavic (Pol. mleko), together with Old Pol. młodziwo ‘beestings, colostrum’ instead of *młoziwo from IE *melHǵ- ~ *mlaHǵ-t-, Lat. lāc, lactis, Gr. gala, galaktos, also Georgian rʒe < *mlǵe
    Akk. manū ‘to count, to measure’, Arab. manā ‘to check, to try’, Hbr. mānā(h) ‘to count’ (maybe of the root *man ‘to think’, related to Nostratic *manu ‘think’ in Altaic, Uralic, Dravidian, IE)
    • Engl. moon < PG *mēnō, Engl. month < PG *mēnōþ < IE *mē-n-, Lat. mēnsis < IE *mē-n-s-, Pol. miesiąc ‘month’ < PS *měsęcь < IE *mē-s-;
    • Skr. māti ‘to measure’, Lat. mētior ‘t.s.’, Hittite meḫḫur ‘time’, Pol. mierzyć ‘to measure’, miara ‘a measure’ < měr- < IE *mē-, *mē-t-, *mē-r-, *mē-n- < *meH-;
    • Engl. meal < *mē-l- ‘meal time’;
    • Gr. métron ‘a measure’, Lith. me͂tas ‘year’ < IE *me-t-;
    • Gr. medímnos, médimnos ‘a measure of grain’, OE metan, Ger. messen ‘to measure’, Lat. modus ‘a measure’ < IE *me-d-, *mo-d-
    Arab. muhrun ‘foal’, Akk. mūru Engl. mare, ir. marc ‘horse’ < IE *mark-, also Mongolian moŕ ‘horse’< *mori, Korean mal < Middle Korean mằr
    Arab. nahrun ‘river’, Akk. nāru Pol. Ner ‘name of a river’ < Nyr, nur ‘diver, loon’, zanurzać się ‘to plunge, to dive’ < IE *nuHr-, nouHr-, cf. also nora ‘burrow, den’, Lith. nérti < *nerH- ~ *norH-
    Hbr. pā(j) ‘mouth’, st.constr. pī, Akk. pū, Arab. fumun Pol. pić ‘to drink’, Lat. bibere and pōtāre, Skr. pāti, pipati ‘he is drinking’ (IE irregular *pei-, *pō-, *pipe-, *bibe-)
    Akk. padānu ‘path’; bask. haran < *padan Engl. path, Ger. Pfad < PG *paþ- (? from Iranian path-)
    Akk. perdu ‘horse, mule’, Hbr. pered̲ ‘mule’, and also Arab. farasun ‘horse’, Hbr. pārāš ‘equipage’; Arab. faraˀun ‘onager, wild donkey’, Akk. parû, paraḫu, Hbr. pereˀ (with related words in Cushitic, Chadic and Omotic); cf. also Syrian bardūnā ‘mule’, Arab. bird̲awn- ‘not thoroughbred horse’, Eth. bāzrā ‘mare’; cf. also Arab. barīd- ‘carrier horse’ (from Greek?) Ger. Pferd ‘horse’ < OHG pferīd, pferifrīd < PG *parafrid-, from Lat. verēdus,*paraverēdus ‘carrier horse, huntsman's horse’ (from that also Gr. béraidos, beredos), from Gallic (Welsh gorwydd ‘horse’)
    Hbr. pered̲ ‘odd number’, Arab. fardun ‘one, the only one’ Pol. pierwszy ‘first’, Engl. first, Gr. prõtos, Lat. prīmus; also Georgian p̣irveli, Turkish bir ‘one’, Mongolian bür ‘everyone’, Korean piroso ‘in the beginning’, Japanese hitótsu < *pitə- ‘one’, from Altaic *bi̯uri
    Akk. puluḫtu ‘fright, fear’ Engl. fright < fryhta < *furxtīn, Goth. faúrhts ‘fear’
    Arab. qadda ‘to cut’, qaṭṭa ‘to cut off’, Hbr. qāṭam ‘to cut down’ Engl. cut, OIc. kuta, with no further etymology
    Arab. qāla ‘to speak’
    • Engl. call from Nordic kalla, Briton galw; Pol. głos ‘voice’ < PS *gols-, Ossetian γalas < *golḱ-;
    • Gr. kaléō ‘to call, to name’
    Arab. qāma ‘to stand up, to become’ Engl. come, become, Goth. qiman, Skr. gámati, gácchati ‘goes’, Lat. veniō, Gr. baínō (with irregular change *m > n) < IE *gʷem-
    Akk. qarābu ‘war, battle’, Hbr. qərāb̲, maybe also Arab. qurḥatun ‘wound, injury’ OE here ‘army’, Ger. Heer < PG *xarjaz; cf. also herald < *xariwald-
    Arab. qarjatun, qirjatun ‘housing estate, town, village’, Aram. qurəjātā, Phoenician qart ‘city, town’, Ugaritic q-r-t Pol. gród ‘(old) city, castle’, Engl. yard, Lith. gar̃das, Skr. gr̥has ‘house’, Tocharian A kerciye
    Arab. qarnun ‘horn’ (also ‘vertex’, not related to qarana ‘to bind, to tie’)
    • Engl. horn < PG *xurnaz, Lat. cornū, Skr. śŕ̥ŋga-;
    • Gr. karā ‘head’ (> Lat. cara ‘face’ and Engl. cheer) < IE *ḱr̥-H-;
    • Gr. kéras ‘horn’, Persian sar ‘head’ < IE *ḱer-H-s-;
    • Lat. cerebrum ‘brain’ < IE *ḱr̥-H-s-ro-;
    • Gr. kraníon ‘skull’ (> Lat. cranium and Pol. migrena < French migraine < hemicranium) < IE *ḱr̥-s-no-;
    • Engl. hornet < PG *xurznuta, Lat. crabrō, Pol. szerszeń < PS *šŕ̥š-en-;
    • Gr. krios ‘ram’ < IE *ḱr̥-ī-;
    • Engl. rein-deer < OE hreinn < PG *xrajna ‘horned animal’ < IE *ḱr̥-oi-n-;
    • Engl. rinder-pest < OE hrind ‘ox’, Ger. Rinder ‘cattle’ < PG *xrinda;
    • Pol. krowa ‘cow’, Russ. koróva < IE *ḱr̥-Hw-;
    • Lat. cervus ‘deer’, cervix ‘neck’ < IE *ḱr̥-w-;
    • Engl. hart < PG *xerutaz < IE *ḱer-u-do-;
    • Gr. korynē ‘club, cudgel’, koryphē ‘head’, korymbos ‘the highest part’
    Arab. qatala ‘to kill’, maybe also Arab. qatta ‘to tell lies’ Engl. hate, Ger. hassen < PG *xat-; OE heaþu ‘war’, Ger. Hader ‘quarrel’ < PG *xaþ-; Gr. kḗdō ‘I worry’, Welsh cas ‘hate’, cawdd ‘anger’; maybe also Engl. kill, quell, Old Irish. at-baill ‘he is dying’ < IE *gwel-
    Arab. qaṭara ‘to drip; to cover with birch tar’, qaṭrānun ‘birch tar’, Hbr. qəṭār ‘incense’ Ger. Ruß ‘soot’ < PG *xrōtō, probably unrelated to Engl. rot, rust < PG and IE *ru-
    Hbr. qōp ‘ape, monkey’, Egyptian kefi ON api, Engl. ape, Germ. Affe, ORuth. opica, Skr. kapí-
    Akk. sīsū, Hbr. sūs ‘horse’ Luwian azzuwa < IE *eḱwos ‘horse’
    Akk. šaḫū ‘pig’ (perhaps also Egyptian šˀy) Lat. sūs, Gr. hūs, sūs < IE *sū- ‘pig’
    Hbr. šeb̲aˁ, šib̲ˁā ‘seven’ (m and f resp.), Akk. šiba, šibittu, Arab. sabˁun, sabˁatun < PSem *šibˁum, Egyptian *'safxaw, Shilha sa Engl. seven, Ger. sieben, Lat. septem, Pol. siedem < IE *septm̥
    Hbr. šēš, šiššā ‘six’ (m and f resp.), Arab. sittun, sittatun, Eth. seds, sedestū, Aram. šeṯ, štā, Ugaritic ṯeṯ, Old South Arab. s-d-ṯ < PSem *šidṯum; Egyptian *sar'saw, *saj'saw, Shilha sd̲is
    • Engl. six, Ger. sechs, Lat. sex, Gr. heks, Pol. sześć, Skr. ṣaṣ < IE *ksweks (the presence of *k- is proved with Balto-Slavic, Albanian, Indo-Iranian facts);
    • Finnish kuusi < *kuute, Hungarian hat < *kūt- ~ *kutt-;
    • Dravidian *caru;
    • Georgian ekvsi
    Akk. šalḫu, šulḫu ‘wall’ (cf. also Egyptian swˀḥ.t ‘stronghold’) or Hbr. ṣēlāˁ, Arab. ḍilˁun ‘rib’, Eth. ṣəlle, ṣəlla ‘beam’ Ger. Säule, OE sȳl < PG *sūlj- ‘column’
    Arab. tajsun ‘he-goat’, Hbr. tajiš, Akk. daššu, taššu, but also Hbr. dīšōn ‘aurochs, Bison bonasus’, Akk. ditānu, didānu ‘t.s.’ Ger. Ziege, OHG ziga ‘she-goat’ < PG *tīgō (unknown outside German), Alb. dhi < IE *dīk-, maybe related to Pol. dziki ‘wild’, Old Pol. dziwy, dziwoki, Lith. dỹkas
    Arab. tawˀamun ‘twins’ Engl. twins < IE *du- ‘two’
    Arab. ṯawrun, Akk. šūru ‘bull’
    • Engl. steer, Goth. stiur, Avestan staōra < IE *steuro-;
    • Pol. tur ‘urus, Bos primigenius’, Lat. taurus ‘bull’, Gr. tauros < IE *tauro-
    Arab. wajnun, Hbr. jajin ‘wine’ Engl. wine, Gr. (w)oĩnos, Lat. vīnum; Hitt. wijanaš, cf. also Georgian γvino
    Arab. waqā ‘to preserve, to defend’ Engl. wake, watch, wait < PG *wak-, *waxt-, Lat. vegere ‘to be active’, Skr. vāja ‘strength, speed’
    Arab. warada ‘to come’, wardijānun ‘guardian’ Engl. guard < Old French garder < Frankish warden
    Akk. zību ‘sacrifice, offering’ OE tiber ‘sacrifice, offering’; Ger. Ungeziefer ‘vermin’
    [/QUOTE]

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    But from where did Semitic come from ? Bronze Age Levant differs from its predecessor in having a significant portion of ancestry from Caucasus.
    My "personal hypothesis", which I also have seen speculated by other people in the blogs and websites on population genetics, is that the Proto-Semitic people didn't come fully formed from anywhere. The J1 majority (with some J2 and possibly also some G2a) came from the Caucasus speaking a non-AA language, possibly more or less related to the East Caucasian family (where very dense pockets of J1, including even J1-P58 AFAIK, are found). This people probably lived to the south of the Caucasians, in the present Turkey-Syria border or in the Taurus mountains, where they directly neighbored what should be the northernmost Afro-Asiatic languages, spoken by people who were probably mostly E1b1b and perhaps also a bit of T, G2 and a bit of J2. From a situation of significant influence living on their periphery, these pastoralist Pre-Semites would've then conquered the former more powerful and more advanced culture that they neighbored and perhaps living in a state of half conflict, half mutualism. And they adopted the language of the numerous and advanced conquered peoples and formed with them a new ethnic identity. That would perhaps be mirrored in the very similar way that the Sumerians were also first the advanced source of influence to Akkadians, later the conquered peoples in a state of bilingualism and finally a people fully subsumed into a new culture and identity with Akkadians.

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    I think that many of those words in the table are more bent on looking for similar words than etymological connections. If there is one generic rule in linguistics that is usually true, it is that when two words, of languages which are supposed to have been somehow related thousands of years ago, are too similar in their present form, then it is unlikely that they are really cognates after milennia of sound changes (compare, for example, English "to have" and Portuguese "haver", not cognates, but the real cognate to the English verb is "caber" or "catar"). It'd be best if, both in the AA and IE words, the comparisons were between the supposed and reconstructed proto-language roots. It's a bit problematic to compare modern Arabic and English, for example, to assess a possible relationship more than 5,000 years ago. In some of those words, also, there is a high probability of a loanword, a Wanderwort affecting both language families: this is famously the case of "wine", which is usually considered to be a word borrowed from Kartvelian *ghwino, since wine production is thought to have become first large-scale in the Caucasus.
    Last edited by Ygorcs; 01-01-18 at 02:08.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    No, the word has a reconstructed proto-Afro Asiatic root *ħar, Semitic languages as well as Egyptian and Omotic (an extremely divergent branch in East Africa) all have the derived word with the same meaning; given that Afro-Asiaitc is really old (older than PIE by six millennia) I see it very likely to be a borrowing from Afro Asiatic (AA) to IE, there is linguistic evidence that AA languages influenced Elamite and Dravidian (here) both languages associated with Iran (a fact in the case of Elamite), we know from Lazaridis et al (genetic structure of the world's first farmers) that Iran Chalcolithic can be modelled as a mixture of the previous Iran Neolithic, CHG, and Levantine Neolithic, and we know that Steppe EBA can be modelled as EHG and Iran Chalcolithic, Levantine Neolithic lineages spread in the same areas that AA speakers would dominate, and they all have significant amounts of this ancestry, there is linguistic evidence that AA languages spread to Africa with farming (here).

    I'll post them again:

    Proto-Afrasian *ħar- ‘(vb.) to be superior, to be higher in status or rank, to be above or over; (n.) nobleman, master, chief, superior;

    (adj.) free-born, noble’:

    Semitic: Proto-Semitic *ħar-ar- ‘to be free-born, to be or become free, to set free’, *ħar(r)-/*ħur(r)- ‘noble, free-born’ > Hebrew ḥōr ‘noble’; Arabic ḥurr ‘noble, free-born; free, independent’, ḥarra ‘to liberate, to free, to set free, to release, to emancipate’, ḥurrīya ‘freedom, liberty, independence, unrestraint, license’; Aramaic ḥərar ‘to be or become free’; Ugaritic ḥrr ‘free’; Sabaean ḥrr ‘freemen, free-born men’; Geez / Ethiopic ḥarāwi ‘free-born, nobleman’, ḥarāwənnā ‘freedom’, ḥarənnat ‘freedom’; Tigrinya ḥara ‘free’, ḥarənnät ‘freedom’; Tigre ḥara ‘free; freedom’; Amharic hurr ‘free’; Gurage hurru bālä ‘to become free, to set free’.

    Egyptian ḥry ‘chief, master, overseer, superior’, ḥr ‘on, upon, over’, ḥrw ‘upper part, top’; Coptic hi- [xi-] (< *ḥaryaw) ‘on, in, at’, hray [xrai] ‘upper part’.

    Omotic: North Omotic: Yemsa / Janjero herašo ‘chief, ruler’, herašo ‘chieftainship, rule’.


    have there been tentatives of explanation for the complete lost of H- in all the I-E languages (ssupposed loanwords here)? Just a question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    have there been tentatives of explanation for the complete lost of H- in all the I-E languages (ssupposed loanwords here)? Just a question.
    I don't think there has been any attempt at that, if my hypothesis is true, it could have been through an intermediary population that was still in Iran/Caucasus before their movement to the steppe.

    Remember that this is all hypothetical, it may never have happened at all.

  23. #23
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    In Albanian *AR* (gold)







    And *ARË* (field)




    AR ''argjiria'' (coins) old.Gr + ARË ''arura'' (field) Byzantine Gr.
    Is it a coincidence that these words are almost similar in Albanian?
    The colour of a wheat field is 'gold', could this be the reason for these words having almost the same pronunciation?
    Gold = Yellow





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