Is most of Europe poorer than the U.S.?

[firetown]

I am not sure why they have decided to leave out Luxembourg, Ireland, Norway, Switzerland, Netherlands and Iceland and started with number 7 for Europe just to do what? Make a point? Since the data is from 2014, Norway would have been number 7 on this list. Luxembourg number 1. Ireland has since taken over the number 2 spot for Europe from Norway.


Home ownership appears to be surprisingly low in Western and Northern Europe with the exception of Norway topping it with 82.8%.


According to the QLI, Norway is also up there.

Why even bother posting something so incomplete and so ultimately misleading?

 

[Angela]

I didn't check the data myself, relying on the fact that it came from the world bank. Perhaps I should have.

Let's examine it, however. Luxembourg has fewer than 600,000 people and is small geographically as well. If I were better at computer graphics and were to lay it over an area going from, say, Darien Connecticut and stretching over to Westchester, how much do you want to bet that 100,000 or so would be chicken feed in comparison? Greenwich, Connecticut, alone has an average income per year of 415,000/yr.
http://thumbnails-visually.netdna-ssl.com/the-wealthiest-zip-codes-in-america_554155e8e6384.jpg

Take a look at other wealthy zip codes.

That leaves us with Switzerland, Norway, and Ireland.

Switzerland benefits from all that money legally invested and illegally hidden there.

If we're going to include havens for money, how about Monaco?

I'll grant you Norway. Like South Dakota it makes a lot of money from fossil fuels and doesn't have a huge underclass. Also low in population. Still comes in 7th.

That leaves Ireland.

"Anyway, in the case of Ireland, the measurement of GDP is significantly distorted by the composition of the Irish economy, whose measurement is particularly volatile due to the corporate tax policy of the country, and how GDP is measured. If you took the numbers at face value, it's GDP grew by 26.3% in 2015 (FT, 2016) which is hilarious. If you actually dig into why the statistic is that way, you'll notice that it stems from multinationals domiciling their assets in Ireland (be it IP, planes to be leased to airlines and corporate tax inversions). As these capital assets are now "Irish", the numerator in the GDP PPP per Capita calculation balloons, even after how you adjust for cost of living, and when you combine it with Ireland's low population you have a high GDP PPP per Capita.

Does this actually reflect living standards in Ireland? Probably not. Those planes, corporations etc. don't really have anything to do with Ireland (little to no local employment for these assets, proportionally low level of tax paid so doesn't generate a lot of tax revenue for the government to spend on services etc.), Ireland is just where they're registered. Hence their GDP measurements are particularly quirky to the point of uselessness."

It all totally makes sense. Still lots of illegal Irish immigrants here.

So, each country has to be looked at individually. None of those you mentioned are a good comparison.

Even in general, comparisons between these tiny in population and until now homogeneous, highly education countries are not meaningful.

 

[LeBrok]

Home ownership appears to be surprisingly low in Western and Northern Europe with the exception of Norway topping it with 82.8%.

If I'm not mistaken, home ownership includes apartments too, not just single family houses. Very roughly speaking, in cities and towns in Europe 80% people own apartments, 20% own single family homes, in America it is reversed 80% own single family homes, 20% apartments.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

See:

https://fee.org/articles/most-of-europe-is-a-lot-poorer-than-most-of-the-united-states/

[/IMG]


Clearly, some countries are more variable, of course.

[/IMG]

In England, the high GDP seems to be the counties around London. How much of that is related to the financial markets? The same is true for southern Ireland, I think, i.e. financial markets.

France, it's just Paris, yes?

Scotland, Norway, oil?

Belgium, perhaps to some extent, the EU headquarters?

"As a quick caveat, it’s worth noting that there’s not a one-to-one link between gross domestic product and actual living standards. Some of the economic activity in energy-rich states such as North Dakota, for instance, translates into income for shareholders living elsewhere in America.But if you look at the US average ($54,629), it obviously is higher than economic output in European nations. And if you prefer direct measures of living standards, then data on consumption from the OECD also shows that America is considerably more prosperous.

None of this suggests that policy in America is ideal (it isn’t) or that European nations are failures (they still rank among the wealthiest places on the planet).
I’m simply making the modest — yet important — argument that Europeans would be more prosperous if the fiscal burden of government wasn’t so onerous. And I’m debunking the argument that we should copy nations such as Denmark by allowing a larger government in the United States (though I do want to copy Danish policies in other areas, which generally are more pro-economic libertythan what we have in America)."

He obviously has an axe to grind. Is there another side of the story?

In England, it is mostly related to financial markets, around London of course. Ireland is due to it being a tax haven for corporations.

But in America, despite the MUCH larger class divide than anywhere in Europe (though here in the UK we have a pretty big one), there is hugely better economic mobility, which definitely lends itself well to greater overall wealth. Also, almost all large companies will have some form of headquarters in America.

 

[Maciamo]

If I'm not mistaken, home ownership includes apartments too, not just single family houses. Very roughly speaking, in cities and towns in Europe 80% people own apartments, 20% own single family homes, in America it is reversed 80% own single family homes, 20% apartments.

I found the statistics by country on Eurostat. There are huge variations between countries. The Benelux is more like the US, with about 20% of apartments vs 80% of houses. The UK and Ireland have even less apartments. Overall Europeans live more in houses than in apartments. Only in southern Europe (Spain, Italy, Malta, Greece), Germany and the three Baltic states, but it is barely above 50% and nowhere near 80%.

It's also interesting to compare the percentage of owners who have a mortgage or loan vs those who completely own their home. In that regard, many of the former Soviet-bloc countries have extremely high full home ownership. 95% of Romanians and 85% of Croatians completely own their home without a loan to repay, while only 10% of Dutch people and 5% of Swiss do. High salaries are one thing, but if you have to spend a big part of your salary either paying back a loan or renting your home, there is much less disposable income left.

 

[bicicleur 2]

It's also interesting to compare the percentage of owners who have a mortgage or loan vs those who completely own their home. In that regard, many of the former Soviet-bloc countries have extremely high full home ownership. 95% of Romanians and 85% of Croatians completely own their home without a loan to repay, while only 10% of Dutch people and 5% of Swiss do. High salaries are one thing, but if you have to spend a big part of your salary either paying back a loan or renting your home, there is much less disposable income left.

house prices are highly influenced by regulations
in Belgium and neighbouring countries scarcity is created by reducing the areas on which houses can be built

furthermore, house prices are simply calculated by what an average couple with double income can pay on a 20 years loan with current intrest rates,
that is what the market is aligned to

the higher the average income and the lower intrest rates, the higher house prices become

 

[Angela]

If I'm not mistaken, home ownership includes apartments too, not just single family houses. Very roughly speaking, in cities and towns in Europe 80% people own apartments, 20% own single family homes, in America it is reversed 80% own single family homes, 20% apartments.

It's the difference in the sizes of the dwellings, both houses and apartments, that always strikes me as I go back and forth (well, unless you're living in NYC), as your chart shows. I know that in Italy a major factor is the cost of heating, never mind air conditioning.

Another factor is their virtual mania for not enlarging the overall human footprint. It drives me mad. I was seriously toying with the idea of buying a country property, which no one wants, by the way, with an abandoned farmhouse. Every single one I found that I liked could only have the square meters footprint on the ground of the original farmhouse. You could built up but not out. What possible difference could it have made when you're on acres?

It affected my family too. My distant cousin still has a lot of land. She wanted to build a house for her two children on it. Couldn't do it. So she had to tack on two floors to her own house, making it effectively a three unit apartment house.

In a lot of places the rules are that you can't change the outside of old buildings for historical reasons. Look, the houses used to be plastered. They weathered when they were abandoned. Why the hell can't you plaster them again?

It's madness in my opinion.

 

[LeBrok]

I found the statistics by country on Eurostat. There are huge variations between countries. The Benelux is more like the US, with about 20% of apartments vs 80% of houses. The UK and Ireland have even less apartments. Overall Europeans live more in houses than in apartments. Only in southern Europe (Spain, Italy, Malta, Greece), Germany and the three Baltic states, but it is barely above 50% and nowhere near 80%.

I ment only cities, metropolitan areas. Europe doesn't have suburbs like american cities. Otherwise it depends where populatin live. If a country has more rural population like Bulgaria or Romania, then most will live in their own homes. There are no apartment buildings in a village.

 

[LeBrok]

It's the difference in the sizes of the dwellings, both houses and apartments, that always strikes me as I go back and forth (well, unless you're living in NYC), as your chart shows. I know that in Italy a major factor is the cost of heating, never mind air conditioning.

Another factor is their virtual mania for not enlarging the overall human footprint. It drives me mad. I was seriously toying with the idea of buying a country property, which no one wants, by the way, with an abandoned farmhouse. Every single one I found that I liked could only have the square meters footprint on the ground of the original farmhouse. You could built up but not out. What possible difference could it have made when you're on acres?

It affected my family too. My distant cousin still has a lot of land. She wanted to build a house for her two children on it. Couldn't do it. So she had to tack on two floors to her own house, making it effectively a three unit apartment house.

In a lot of places the rules are that you can't change the outside of old buildings for historical reasons. Look, the houses used to be plastered. They weathered when they were abandoned. Why the hell can't you plaster them again?

It's madness in my opinion.

I agree, this is craziness. Too strict regulations will lead to abandonment and ruin of many villages. It is not that population of Europe will double anytime soon.

 

[bicicleur 2]

I agree, this is craziness. Too strict regulations will lead to abandonment and ruin of many villages. It is not that population of Europe will double anytime soon.

yes, but population density in Europe is much higher than in America
you have much more space over there

 

[Angela]

yes, but population density in Europe is much higher than in America
you have much more space over there

That's probably a factor I didn't mention: land cost, in addition to heating costs, but I wonder if the building materials themselves are more expensive.

Clearly, houses in the suburbs of New York City or Boston are expensive, but they're still not as expensive as similar sized homes in Europe, while in most states, you can get three times the house that you could get in Europe for the same price.

In my rural area of Italy, really far from major shopping, theaters, far from train stations, highways and airports, this is what you get for 250,000 Euro:
https://www.gate-away.com/property_detail.php?id=375926


In Venice, Florida, a beautiful town with all the conveniences of modern life, close to the beach, close to highways, airport etc., this is what you get for 50,000 dollars more. It includes the Club pool, tennis courts and probably exercise room.
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sa...82.069588,26.905845,-82.65461_rect/10_zm/3_p/

It's mind boggling.

 

[bicicleur 2]

That's probably a factor I didn't mention: land cost, in addition to heating costs, but I wonder if the building materials themselves are more expensive.

Clearly, houses in the suburbs of New York City or Boston are expensive, but they're still not as expensive as similar sized homes in Europe, while in most states, you can get three times the house that you could get in Europe for the same price.

In my rural area of Italy, really far from major shopping, theaters, far from train stations, highways and airports, this is what you get for 250,000 Euro:
https://www.gate-away.com/property_detail.php?id=375926


In Venice, Florida, a beautiful town with all the conveniences of modern life, close to the beach, close to highways, airport etc., this is what you get for 50,000 dollars more. It includes the Club pool, tennis courts and probably exercise room.
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sa...82.069588,26.905845,-82.65461_rect/10_zm/3_p/

It's mind boggling.

it's hard to judge real estate just from pics
but yes, I'd go for Venice, Florida

by the way, did you know Verhofstad, the Belgian ex-prime minister who now is in the EU parlement and can give very emotional speeches there about European values has a large estate and is producing olive oil in Tuscany, all of it subsidised with EU money?
that is the way to go
the EU values are for us, and the money is for him and his colleages

 

[bicicleur 2]

as for building materials, aren't more houses in the US built from wood, while in Europe they are almost allways from stone?
I have the impression European houses are more solid

 

[Salento]

as for building materials, aren't more houses in the US built from wood, while in Europe they are almost allways from stone?
I have the impression European houses are more solid

Most modern home in Europe are not made of Stone, are made of Cylinder Blocks and concrete.
Most modern concrete last 30 years or so. After that the steel will rust and degrade.
Pro and Con.
In the north and center of the US Most homes are made of wood, toward the Southwest and Desert not so much.

 

[firetown]

Imbalance and confusion kick in when Western Europeans travel to countries where their money has more buying power. I have seen it a lot in Eastern Europe where Western Europeans travel and are able to afford a nice vacation which they couldn't in their own country. Many save all year for it and then are able to enjoy things for a month. Only problem: In their own country they are often deep in debt and their lifestyle doesn't allow much and people in the countries they visit have a much better lifestyle than they do in their own countries.

I found the statistics by country on Eurostat. There are huge variations between countries. The Benelux is more like the US, with about 20% of apartments vs 80% of houses. The UK and Ireland have even less apartments. Overall Europeans live more in houses than in apartments. Only in southern Europe (Spain, Italy, Malta, Greece), Germany and the three Baltic states, but it is barely above 50% and nowhere near 80%.

It's also interesting to compare the percentage of owners who have a mortgage or loan vs those who completely own their home. In that regard, many of the former Soviet-bloc countries have extremely high full home ownership. 95% of Romanians and 85% of Croatians completely own their home without a loan to repay, while only 10% of Dutch people and 5% of Swiss do. High salaries are one thing, but if you have to spend a big part of your salary either paying back a loan or renting your home, there is much less disposable income left.

 

[firetown]

Financial obligations is a factor often ignored. In the US they are sometimes huge. But also we should measure opportunities. It is one thing to own a home fully, but not have too many opportunities to step things up. In the US, we have huge levels of opportunities. But not as much of a safety net as in Western Europe.

I found the statistics by country on Eurostat. There are huge variations between countries. The Benelux is more like the US, with about 20% of apartments vs 80% of houses. The UK and Ireland have even less apartments. Overall Europeans live more in houses than in apartments. Only in southern Europe (Spain, Italy, Malta, Greece), Germany and the three Baltic states, but it is barely above 50% and nowhere near 80%.

It's also interesting to compare the percentage of owners who have a mortgage or loan vs those who completely own their home. In that regard, many of the former Soviet-bloc countries have extremely high full home ownership. 95% of Romanians and 85% of Croatians completely own their home without a loan to repay, while only 10% of Dutch people and 5% of Swiss do. High salaries are one thing, but if you have to spend a big part of your salary either paying back a loan or renting your home, there is much less disposable income left.

 

[Maciamo]

Financial obligations is a factor often ignored. In the US they are sometimes huge. But also we should measure opportunities. It is one thing to own a home fully, but not have too many opportunities to step things up. In the US, we have huge levels of opportunities. But not as much of a safety net as in Western Europe.

What kind of opportunities for example?

 

[firetown]

In Europe it is for example much harder to move up in the pay scale unless you have a degree. In the US, if you are a hard worker, it is literally possible to go from part-time clerk to district manager if you work hard. Regardless of what your education level and degree might be.

What kind of opportunities for example?

 

[Angela]

Credit for starting up a country is much easier to obtain, also, although things aren't as good as when he came to America.

Eighteen months after arriving, having found an Italian American partner who had some experience and could translate for him (and whom out of loyalty he then carried for decades), he got a start up loan with no collateral other than his skill, job history and character. Oh, and without a university degree, either.

Within five years he was employing hundreds and hundreds of people. That couldn't have happened where he came from minus an education and connections, either legit or criminal.

 

[Piro Ilir]

I can't tell much, but there's something for sure; if you want to make money, USA is the right place. Forged about Europe or EU. My compatriots whom migrated into USA, generally bought two houses. While these working in Europe in the best case bought only one house. USA , and generally north America is the best.