Is most of Europe poorer than the U.S.?

[Tutkun Arnaut]

@Tutkun Arnaut

@Davef

I’m not wrong.

We are talking about money, not inventions.
I said that the USA ARMY (US Department of Defense) financed the Internet development.
I didn’t say who Invented the Internet.
As a Government I stated Who Paid for it, to develop (enhance) and it was NOT the Europeans to do it at first as Tutkun Arnaut asserted in his 1st post, but the Americans.



@Angela - lol

@Davef - Al Gore invented the Internet lol

If you talk about money How come USA has a trade deficit with every single western European country? Does it mean to you USA is selling more stuff to Europe or vice versa? Germany alone has a trade deficit of 300 billion dollars with the world. It means that Germany is selling to the world including USA not vice versa. Not to confuse with surplus trade China has with the USA which is based in lower labour cost. European exports are high quality products? And by the way a lot of money was made by the internet from Europe

 

[Tutkun Arnaut]

You all are wrong! It was the Indo Europeans who invented the Internet

Do you know what world wide web mean? Before there were no internet cables and infrastructure for internet for masses. Europe stepped in and made internet what is today. Internet for masses not army? As for those Indos who work in the internet field is you who let them get into your necks and taking your jobs. In Europe its not easy.

 

[Salento]

If you talk about money How come USA has a trade deficit with every single western European country? Does it mean to you USA is selling more stuff to Europe or vice versa? Germany alone has a trade deficit of 300 billion dollars with the world. It means that Germany is selling to the world including USA not vice versa. Not to confuse with surplus trade China has with the USA which is based in lower labour cost. European exports are high quality products? And by the way a lot of money was made by the internet from Europe

The United States negative trade deficit and imbalance with most of the World, has many reasons.
- Favorable trade deal with EX-Developing-Countries (China, India, S.Korea, ..) were not revised as their Status changed.
- To lure away Communist and Extreme Socialist countries (Europe Eastern Bloc, Soviet, China, Vietnam, ...) toward Capitalism.
- Many are OUTDATED Geopolitical Trade Deals signed in the Past to have access, or control to strategic assets (sea, roads, ports, airports, Islands, Army bases, ...) important to US National Security.
The USA has still 1000s and 1000s of Soldiers in Germany, Japan and many places, and in the past they were incentivized for that.
- The USA is revising the outdated Trade Deals.

 

[Angela]

Beware of what you want to claim, Tutkun....Who knows what they hid in there? It could turn out to be like Skynet!

Btw, when Davef said the Indo-Europeans invented it he meant these guys, not INDIANS! It was a joke.

As for the OP, given where I live, I know lots of people from different parts of Europe who are working here temporarily, and lots of Americans who work in Europe for a time, mostly Britain. Take any job: cop, nurse, teacher, tech worker, engineer, doctor,stockbroker, or whatever, their standard of living is higher here. Speaking of Britain, people still immigrate to commonwealth countries because the opportunities are better.

This isn't a competition thing. The better off everyone is, the better for everyone.

@Salento,
I was only half kidding!

 

[firetown]

So basically this is now a competition whom to give credit? At least don't forget https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machine_Stops

The story, set in a world where humanity lives underground and relies on a giant machine to provide its needs, predicted technologies such as instant messaging and the Internet.

You can't build it without imagining it. You cannot build it without it being financed.

I meant world wide web! It did not start by US army! The center of WWW was in Switzerland and its development was payed by Europe. The network of US army was private and minuscule in scope

 

[firetown]

True. But when I look at last year's revenue, then my question is whether or not and how soon this will change. For example: I wouldn't bet on Walmart, but rather Amazon when it comes to value of the brand. Market capitalisation is an indicator, a strong one, for the companies listed.

Market capitalisation does not take into account privately held (i.e. not publicly listed) companies like Ikea, Lego, Aldi, Schwarz Group, Airbnb, Deloitte, Koch Industries, etc. Europe has more unlisted companies (family businesses) and in fact many of the billionaires mentioned above own unlisted companies.

 

[Tutkun Arnaut]

The United States negative trade deficit and imbalance with most of the World, has many reasons.
- Favorable trade deal with EX-Developing-Countries (China, India, S.Korea, ..) were not revised as their Status changed.
- To lure away Communist and Extreme Socialist countries (Europe Eastern Bloc, Soviet, China, Vietnam, ...) toward Capitalism.
- Many are OUTDATED Geopolitical Trade Deals signed in the Past to have access, or control to strategic assets (sea, roads, ports, airports, Islands, Army bases, ...) important to US National Security.
The USA has still 1000s and 1000s of Soldiers in Germany, Japan and many places, and in the past they were incentivized for that.
- The USA is revising the outdated Trade Deals.

So as I understand the German cars are sold in abundance in USA as result of productivity, otherwise Germans make those cars cheaper and USA customers profit from them?!!!!! Or Italian fashion is not that expensive? Thats what you are saying. My understanding is Americans lack the quality of goods. Car makers there are mostly run by Indian CEO, and what do you expect Indians make better cars than Germans? Or AIRPLANES by the way? As I said with Asian countries surplus of them comes from cheap labor, With Europeans superior quality of goods. Have you seen major USA trading partner is Mexico? Thats the only olace where you can actually sell.

 

[Tutkun Arnaut]

So basically this is now a competition whom to give credit? At least don't forget https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machine_Stops

You can't build it without imagining it. You cannot build it without it being financed.

As I understand it what you saying is smoke. I cant really get the meaning of it!!

 

[Tutkun Arnaut]

Beware of what you want to claim, Tutkun....Who knows what they hid in there? It could turn out to be like Skynet!

Btw, when Davef said the Indo-Europeans invented it he meant these guys, not INDIANS! It was a joke.

As for the OP, given where I live, I know lots of people from different parts of Europe who are working here temporarily, and lots of Americans who work in Europe for a time, mostly Britain. Take any job: cop, nurse, teacher, tech worker, engineer, doctor,stockbroker, or whatever, their standard of living is higher here. Speaking of Britain, people still immigrate to commonwealth countries because the opportunities are better.

This isn't a competition thing. The better off everyone is, the better for everyone.

@Salento,
I was only half kidding!

Davef is mostly wrong but the joke about Indo Eurpeans touched a cord with me, I had a good laugh. He meant Indians own the internet at the moment and he is right.

 

[Salento]

So as I understand the German cars are sold in abundance in USA as result of productivity, otherwise Germans make those cars cheaper and USA customers profit from them?!!!!! Or Italian fashion is not that expensive? Thats what you are saying. My understanding is Americans lack the quality of goods. Car makers there are mostly run by Indian CEO, and what do you expect Indians make better cars than Germans? Or AIRPLANES by the way? As I said with Asian countries surplus of them comes from cheap labor, With Europeans superior quality of goods. Have you seen major USA trading partner is Mexico? Thats the only olace where you can actually sell.

I don’t understand how you could possibly reach that conclusion about my post.
Clearly, you just resent the USA, that’s your prerogative, knock yourself out.
...........

 

[Salento]

The United States negative trade deficit and imbalance with most of the World, has many reasons.
- Favorable trade deal with EX-Developing-Countries (China, India, S.Korea, ..) were not revised as their Status changed.
- To lure away Communist and Extreme Socialist countries (Europe Eastern Bloc, Soviet, China, Vietnam, ...) toward Capitalism.
- Many are OUTDATED Geopolitical Trade Deals signed in the Past to have access, or control to strategic assets (sea, roads, ports, airports, Islands, Army bases, ...) important to US National Security.
The USA has still 1000s and 1000s of Soldiers in Germany, Japan and many places, and in the past they were incentivized for that.
- The USA is revising the outdated Trade Deals.

Goodbye Forever NAFTA

Hello USMCA

... The deal has a new name, new rules for cars and trucks, and labor and IP protections. ...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...hats-it/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.fd6cc414fca1

 

[Angela]

Fix the China problem, Trump.

 

[firetown]

Germany is great at making powerful cars. So is Italy. But there is not that much of a need to have high HP ones in a nation where the speed limit is 65.

So as I understand the German cars are sold in abundance in USA as result of productivity, otherwise Germans make those cars cheaper and USA customers profit from them?!!!!! Or Italian fashion is not that expensive? Thats what you are saying. My understanding is Americans lack the quality of goods. Car makers there are mostly run by Indian CEO, and what do you expect Indians make better cars than Germans? Or AIRPLANES by the way? As I said with Asian countries surplus of them comes from cheap labor, With Europeans superior quality of goods. Have you seen major USA trading partner is Mexico? Thats the only olace where you can actually sell.

 

[Maleth]

Reading of all the opportunities and the circulation of money in the USA one would have thought that as a country it should make it at least in the top 10 of the happiest. Things cant be all that bad in Europe.

 

[Maleth]

Germany is great at making powerful cars. So is Italy. But there is not that much of a need to have high HP ones in a nation where the speed limit is 65.

65? some autobahns in Germany have no speed limits.....

 

[Gnarl]

Talk to me when a huge percentage of your population is an underclass like ours, with all the problems that they have, including drug and alcohol addiction. I never said everyone in American society can prosper and move up the latter economically. A lot of people are incapable of it, for various reasons, and the more automation takes hold, the more of them there will be. All any government can try to provide is equal opportunity; it can't guarantee equal outcomes.

When the OP question is "Is most of Europe poorer than the US?" it seems entirely relevant that a much larger fraction of the US lives in absolute poverty, and has much less opportunity to work their way out of it. For a long time, the US was the nation with the greatest social mobility, and judging from the comments, it seems a lot of people think it is still that way. It is very far from the reality of the situation.

Also, the health insurance benefits most people get through their employer aren't computed as part of their salaries. (As for employee contributions, I've never contributed a penny in my life toward it) That's part of your total "package", not your total income or salary, and the "dollar value" of your health insurance doesn't go onto your IRS form, which is where the gross and net salaries for these studies are culled. That's all untaxed "extra" income.

My point was that the comparison wasn't income to income, but GDP to GDP. If you are using GDP per person as a basis of comparison it does matter. It reduces your financial situation regardless. When you spend 10 000 $ for health care per citizen, and the nations you are comparing to spends $ 5000 with as good or better results, your GDP figure as it translates to the wealth of the citizens loses 5000 $. You can't even think of it as a stealth tax, because a tax could in theory be spent on things that benefit you. In the end, you have 5000 $ less.

There are of course many such differences between nations, but what is special about health care is size. The difference is several times the total difference in military spending, etc. It doesn't even out.

There is also the fact that you pay more in taxes for health care than most Europeans, and then your employer have to fork out additional money that could have been used on remuneration to provide extra health care for you.

I'm sorry, but there is no comparison between these small, homogenous societies and the U.S.

Then why make an OP that quite specifically compares them ?

We aren't talking about income tax anymore, but total taxes, including corporate taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, inheritance, taxes, license taxes. The biggest share of the taxes is paid by companies. The reason why some European countries have substantially higher tax revenues is because corporate taxes are higher. US federal corporate tax is 21%, while in Europe it is up to 33% in France, 29.5% in Germany and Belgium, 29% in Greece, 28% in Italy, 25% in Austria and Spain, etc.

I am also told that there are more tax loopholes for companies in the US tax code than in most European ones, which means that an even larger share of the total tax burden in the US is borne by the citizens. However, it is just a feeling I get. I cannot cite anything and it sounds like a difficult thing to investigate.

Beyond that though, is the fraction of working population. Many countries in Europe have long maternity leaves and policies that make it easier to return to work after childbirth. This yields a larger fraction of the middle-class population as two income couples. Hence the fraction of the total tax burden that is borne by the taxpayer is shared out among more taxpayers.

Then sales taxes (VAT) are also much higher in Europe, with rates generally between 20 and 25%, while it is between 0% and 11.7% in US States. Nevertheless many European countries have reduced rates and zero rates for essential goods and services (food, children stuff, books, pharmaceuticals, sports, transports).

VAT is normally calculated as a cost of living thing rather than a tax. It has more in common with costs of living than taxes. It is, specifically included in PPP calculations, so the OPs chart already had differences in VAT worked in.

 

[halfalp]

Why are we in grey?

 

[Maciamo]

VAT is normally calculated as a cost of living thing rather than a tax. It has more in common with costs of living than taxes. It is, specifically included in PPP calculations, so the OPs chart already had differences in VAT worked in.

From the point of view of the individual, yes, but here Angela was comparing government tax revenues, and VAT is just as good as any other tax in that regard.

 

[firetown]

My thoughts on the social democratic systems of Europe are not that positive. From the beginning, it was designed to not change much. Meaning: It was created to create a huge middle class where everyone is more or less OK, but nobody can get wealthy meaning never posing a true threat to the families which have always been on top. That goes hand in hand with taxes exceeding 50% once you have reached a certain level of success in Germany. Sure, you can state that you like being able to find an apartment in East Germany, have the government pay for it, give you free health insurance, 400 Euro in cash and plenty of extras such as clothing allowance if you are German citizen or legal resident. But do you really think that this is necessary and that high earners need to lose cash-flow and investment power to make that happen?

Ireland now has the second highest GDP in Europe, because they won't play those games. Yes, a lot of Irish people have told me that they consider their system unbalanced and unfair as the cash is in few hands. But now you have many start-ups and entrepreneurs moving there boosting the economy.

Germany has become a haven for parasites and people who simply don't feel like getting a job. I believe in safety nets. But if you have not worked in 20 years and do your obligatory job searches with coffee stains on your shirt and not having showered in a week to make sure you don't get accidentally hired, then I see a problem. They make it difficult for successful people and easy for those who just want to take it easy without having a big change in lifestyle.

And it halts progress. And it isn't that the social democratic politicians "care about people". They use their situation to enforce stronger tax laws and implement guilt to "justify it".