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I was referring to Lazaridis' 2014 work, (i wasn't totally right) Still they are 50% Italian - 50% Levantine. That's ultimately mostly Middle Eastern.
There are only two possibilities for Ashkenazim.
Either they are part Levantine part Italian.
Either they are 60% Greek, 30% Levantine.
The most Northern-shifted Levantine are Alawites, Northern most Syrians and (salty) Cypriots but none of them are like Ashkenazim genetically.
Ashkenazim are also in their basal ancestry identical to Sephardic, Romaniote and old standing Italian Jews.
Corded Ware spoke already a some kind of proto-Germanic dialect. Iranic (Aryan) dialects were older then Corded Ware and much older than Balto-Slavic. Corded Ware has nothing to do with the ancient Aryans.
Aryans belonged to many haplogroups, but some 'Aryans' were already Z94 and not Z93.Z93, and indeed many other haplogroups, have probably been constantly entering the Jewish gene pool for thousands of years.
Why do you specify Mesopotamia as the place where all of these multiple entries of Z93 would have occurred?
The more interesting question is whether Z93 was already in the gene pool by Judaism's outset. As you have said that it 'entered' the Jewish gene pool, I wonder whether you are thinking that Z93 was an interpolator into a pre-existing Jewish population from which it was previously wholly absent? If so, I would be interested to learn how you might have come to this conclusion.
yfull estimates that the joint ancestor of typical Corded Ware Z283 and typical Aryan Z93 populations lived 3,000 BC (and my own estimate using a different methodology comes to a similar conclusion). This date equates quite closely to the onset of Corded Ware, so it would be difficult for the core Aryan populations to have diverged from the core Corded Ware populations much before Corded Ware began.
Haplogroups in CWC are ancestral to some haplogroups in Germanic people. But not in other (Asian) populations at all. Native Jewish haplogroups are very different from CWC haplogroups. R1a in CWC was already very different from ancient Asian R1a. Germanic was partly formed by CWC, that's why CWC was partly a proto-Germanic language and also some haplogroups of CWC ended up in some modern Germanic populations in Germany.nothing at the present stage of knowledge, links CWC with proto-Germanic as a basis - the dates of apparition of well defined and separated modern languages families do not prove or disprove their possible connexions.
Not possible. R1a in CWC has been associated with Z283, while Aryans had already Z94. Z283 and Z94 are 2 very different things.I see these Corded Ware offshoots as perhaps catalysing the expansionary movements of populations from the Northern Middle East southwards into the Levant, Arabia and Egypt, (e.g. Mitanni, Hyksos) and eastwards into India (e.g. Aryans). As such, I see Z93 as most likely integral in the formative period of Judaism.
Furthermore, it seems that Judaism was also heavily influenced by ancient Zoroastrians.Genesis starts with the creation of our world and the history of Adam and Eve. Those stories were directly imported from the Mesopotamia. Also the national god of Israel and Judah, Yahweh, was from the Mesopotamia, came most probably from the Hurrians.
Notice that the Mitanni were not 'Zoroastrians'. They were like early Medes 'Magi'. Zoroastrians came later after the Mitanni and Judaism was even highly influenced by the Zoroastrians from Iran. There is a DNA of ancient Zoroastrians.Furthermore, it seems that Judaism was also heavily influenced by ancient Zoroastrians.
jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/15283-zoroastrianism
Aryans belonged to many haplogroups, but some 'Aryans' were already Z94 and not Z93.
Z94 in Aryans and Z283 in Corded Ware went through different evolutions. R1a in CWC was already very different from Asian R1a.
Genesis starts with the creation of our world and the history of Adam and Eve. Those stories were directly imported from the Mesopotamia. Also the national god of Israel and Judah, Yahweh, was from the Mesopotamia, came most probably from the Hurrians.
The predominant Corded Ware haplogroup was R1a-M417 and its population included men who were M417xZ283. Z94 is also a branch of M417. If we look at the M417 today that is neither Z283 nor Z93/Z94, it is found almost exclusively in the Corded Ware zone.Haplogroups in CWC are ancestral to some haplogroups in Germanic people. But not in other (Asian) populations at all. Native Jewish haplogroups are very different from CWC haplogroups. R1a in CWC was already very different from ancient Asian R1a. Germanic was partly formed by CWC, that's why CWC was partly a proto-Germanic language and also some haplogroups of CWC ended up in some modern Germanic populations in Germany.
Yes, Aryan is not really a very helpful word, as it postcedes Corded Ware. Z283 is a branch of the M417 population that remained in the Corded Ware zone, and Z93 is a component of the same population that formed the Aryans several centuries later.Z283 is not 'Aryan'.
Haplogroups in CWC are ancestral to some haplogroups in Germanic people. But not in other (Asian) populations at all. Native Jewish haplogroups are very different from CWC haplogroups. R1a in CWC was already very different from ancient Asian R1a. Germanic was partly formed by CWC, that's why CWC was partly a proto-Germanic language and also some haplogroups of CWC ended up in some modern Germanic populations in Germany.
We cannot know the exact date for the Z93/Z283 split, but even if it were as early as 3,800 BC, it would still show a relatively recent common point of origin.But Z93 and Z283 branched off around 3800 BC according to some sources, so a simple shift from CWC to Sintashta seems excluded, spite strong links at the autosomal level, all that does not prove they did not share an heavy common ancestry. But the EEF in Sintashta can being come from a common donor (Ukraine?) but not by force through CWC origin. And there is still a long way to go to Mitanni (not to Tipperary LOL). I don't give my opinion otherwise because I lack detailed date for this very question of Levites. Sorry.
Sorry, should have said posts. It's often discussed in threads on Jewish genetics.
"Also the only R1a CTS6* found today are from Spain and Armenia. Also upstream are found in Palestinians but not in Iran and Central Asia.
Most probably this lineages are from Mitanni Aryans."
See:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...ish-lineages-by-haplogroup?highlight=Z93+Jews
I don't know why you have to try to connect this to Corded Ware.
Ashkenazi Levites are mainly CTS-6, which is downstream of Z93, the sister clade of Z283, which was the main Corded Ware haplogroup. Z93 is not associated with Corded Ware but rather with Sintashta-Petrovka, and at any rate the R1a CTS-6 entered the Jewish community in what is now Iraq long after the Corded Ware culture ended.
True, Corded Ware was not limited to Z283. And there are no other haplogroups in Asia that would come from CWC. That's why it is not logical that Z93 came from CWC.Thank you for all your information, which helps with my research.
I don't think any Aryans could have been Z94 and not Z93, as Z94 is simply one of the branches of Z93.
Yes, Z94 in Aryans and Z283 in Corded Ware would have gone through different evolutions, although from a very recent common starting point. Corded Ware, however, was not limited to Z283. And Z94 had to have evolved differently from other Corded Ware populations, as yfull estimates that it only came into existence in 2,200 BC (after Corded Ware had ended). My own date estimate for it, using different methodology, is almost identical.
Yes, Asian R1a is different from R1a in Corded Ware, but only because it had admixed with other populations after having left Corded Ware. While the Asian R1a was in Sintashta, before it had spread into Asia, it was autosomally very similar to Corded Ware.
I do not want to get into theology, nor to dispute that the Jewish religion developed from Mesopotamia or the Hurrians. Although, as far as I am aware, the date for the earliest source of the Mesopotamian creation stories is 2,000 BC, so we cannot even be sure that they preceded the arrival of Z93 into Asia.
I do agree with you. There there was no shift from CWC to Sintashta. Z93 is at least from 3800 BC and it predates CWC.I 'll try to be clear if I can.
I 'm not defending the Pip's thesis, I just try to weight some arguments. NO, being part of the autosomal basis of a pop DOES NOT imply an heavy part in the making of this new pop's language (here, Germanic), nor it exclude it completely. SO, the connexions between unkown but supposed language of CWC with the proto-Indo-Arian is not proved or disproved.
But Z93 and Z283 branched off around 3800 BC according to some sources, so a simple shift from CWC to Sintashta seems excluded, spite strong links at the autosomal level, all that does not prove they did not share an heavy common ancestry. But the EEF in Sintashta can being come from a common donor (Ukraine?) but not by force through CWC origin. And there is still a long way to go to Mitanni (not to Tipperary LOL). I don't give my opinion otherwise because I lack detailed date for this very question of Levites. Sorry.
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