Corded Ware roots of Levite DNA?

[BenjaminD]

I cannot see any logical reason for coming to such a definitive conclusion.
The link between ancient North Ukraine and Sintashta per se is clear. A Ukrainian sample from the early 4th millennium BC is indistinguishable autosomally from Sintashta samples, despite both having major differences to samples from other parts of the Steppe, Middle East and Central Asia.
I think this has been asked before - what is this ancient Kazakh Z93 sample to which you refer? I would be grateful if you would supply details.

Sintashta is located in Kazakhstan. By ancient Kazakh Z93 I mean Andronovo, Sintashta horizon. R1a in Sintashta, modern day Kazakhstan was Z93 and not Z283. What I'm saying is that Z93 was already present in Kazakhstan even before Sintashta. It is even mentioned on eupedia page of r1a:

A third possibility is that R1a tribes split in two around Kazakhstan during the Late Paleolithic, with one group moving to eastern Europe, while the other moved south to Iran.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

Where is evidence that Mitanni were from Sintashta? Who is saying that Mitanni came from Sintashta? If Mitanni had R1a it was most probably Z94. Very different from CWC and 'northern Ukraine'. But Mitanni 'Aryans' had also different dna like maybe J2a and R1b and they were very different from Sintashta, let alone CWC. They didn't find Z94 in BMAC, but they found J2a. If part of Mitanni came from central asia, it was most likely bmac and even part of J2a in Mitanni could be also from bmac.

Steppes people from ancient Northern Ukraine to ancient Kazakhstan were autosomally similar to each other but not identical. Some of them had more Uralic dna, some of them had more CHG/Iran_N dna in them. They just lived there next to each without any serious boundaries and were native to that region. The Steppes were just like a highway without boundaries.

Mitanni 'Aryans' were very different from what you do imagine. They were Middle Eastern people at the first place.

Middle Eastern Levite Jews were religiously influenced by other Middle Eastern people. What is the big deal about it?


So, there are to much assumption. We don't know what happened for sure. But Levite Judaism was influenced by Mesopotamian Hurrians & Mitanni and by later Persians. Nothing to do with CWC or Sintashta. Just Middle Easterns influence other Middle Easterns

 

[BenjaminD]

I wish I was as sure about things as you are.

C[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]hild's Torah education begins very early.[/FONT]

 

[Sile]

The answer to your question is that R1a in Levite DNA is actually from Hurrians, Mitanni, Persians and not from CWC or Sintashta.
Judaism has Mesopotamian roots. And Hurrians, Mitanni were Mesopotamian people.
And, how Hurrians, Mitanni or Persians got their R1a is a different question and has nothing to do with the Levite DNA.

Hurrians lived north of the Mitanni...in South Caucasus or as some say the Armenian highlands
They belong to the Kura-Araxes culture ...........they moved south over time and some merged with Mitanni society
.
The term middle-eastern is too broad, be more precise .........plus different scholars have different ideas on what is or is not middle-east

 

[BenjaminD]

Hurrians lived north of the Mitanni...in South Caucasus or as some say the Armenian highlands
They belong to the Kura-Araxes culture ...........they moved south over time and some merged with Mitanni society
.
The term middle-eastern is too broad, be more precise .........plus different scholars have different ideas on what is or is not middle-east

Ok. I do agree with you that Hurrians, Urartu, Kura-Araxes were all related people. I'm only troubled with when people try to portrait ancient cultures in the Mesopotamia as something from the Steppes or CWC in this case. Ancient Aryans, like Mitanni or ancient Persians were very different from people who they associate with. Mitanni Aryans were actually much more similar to the modern native population of Mesopotamia than to other people outside the Middle East. Their language is still spoken in the Middle East and their genetic and cultural influeces are still all over the Middle East.

Modern population tha inhabit ancient CWC land has nothing to do with the Aryans. They are very different people and belong to different dna (not Z94, J2a), speak different non-Aryan languages and have nothing in common with people like Mitanni at all.


After the iron age the first god of Israel and Judah was Yahweh (YHWH). YHWH has been associated with the metallurgy and was equivalent to the Hurrian god Kumarbi and the Greek god Cronus.

Later on Judaism was influenced by Mitanni, ancient Persians and other native Aryan people in the Middle East

 

[Pip]

By ancient Kazakh Z93 I mean Andronovo, Sintashta horizon. R1a in Sintashta, modern day Kazakhstan was Z93 and not Z283. What I'm saying is that Z93 was already present in Kazakhstan even before Sintashta.

But Andronovo began after Sintashta.

They didn't find Z94 in BMAC, but they found J2a.

Exactly, there was no sign of R1a Z93 Levite DNA in BMAC. It presumably came from somewhere else, and analysis of the data suggests its most likely trail into Asia was by the Eastern Caucasus at an estimated date of around 2,000 BC.

Mitanni could be also from bmac.

Possibly, but not any Z94 component in it.

Mitanni 'Aryans' were very different from what you do imagine. They were Middle Eastern people at the first place.

I'm not sure I imagine anything very much. I'm just looking at the DNA data.

Middle Eastern Levite Jews were religiously influenced by other Middle Eastern people. What is the big deal about it?

It's not a particularly big deal to me, and I'm sorry to have prompted you to do so much posting on this thread. I could have tracked the different developmental routes of other Jewish yDNA haplogroups, but felt R1a-Z93 was an interesting one.

Levite Judaism was influenced by Mesopotamian Hurrians & Mitanni and by later Persians. Nothing to do with CWC or Sintashta. Just Middle Easterns influence other Middle Easterns

Perhaps that is it. I see data suggesting that the Middle East was influenced from all sides over the millennia (from North East Africa, from the Indian sub-continent, from the Steppe, from Europe and from the Near East), and not just existing in its own bubble.

 

[Pip]

I'm only troubled with when people try to portrait ancient cultures in the Mesopotamia as something from the Steppes or CWC in this case.

May I ask why this troubles you? (Especially as I'm not even saying that the culture came from the Steppe or CWC, but merely that a small proportion of its people appear to have had ancestors who lived there several hundred years previously.)

After the iron age the first god of Israel and Judah was Yahweh (YHWH). YHWH has been associated with the metallurgy and was equivalent to the Hurrian god Kumarbi and the Greek god Cronus.
Later on Judaism was influenced by Mitanni, ancient Persians and other native Aryan people in the Middle East

Israel's iron age ended about 600 BC. Judaism surely cannot have been influenced by the Mitanni later on, as the Mitanni empire collapsed circa 1300 BC.

 

[BenjaminD]

Exactly, there was no sign of R1a Z93 Levite DNA in BMAC. It presumably came from somewhere else, and analysis of the data suggests its most likely trail into Asia was by the Eastern Caucasus at an estimated date of around 2,000 BC.

bmac has been associated with the indo-iranian people. There are a lot cimilarities between Mitanni kingdom and bmac. If Mitanni came from outside, they most probably came from the bmac. Ancient bmac dna is still very similar to the modern Iranian populations.

If Z94 in India never came from the Eastern Caucasus, then why would Z94 in the Middle East come from the Eastern Caucasus? Z94 entered India from the Indus Valley and southcentral asia.

Perhaps that is it. I see data suggesting that the Middle East was influenced from all sides over the millennia (from North East Africa, from the Indian sub-continent, from the Steppe, from Europe and from the Near East), and not just existing in its own bubble.

The history of the Mesopotamia is dominant and the most influential because the Neolithic [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]agricultural revolution started there. It started there and that's why this region was very important.
[/FONT]
The main and most important first civilizations started in the Mesopotamia, and not in Africa, India, the Steppes, Europe. This has something to do with the first neolithic farmers and t[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]he Neolithic agricultural revolution.[/FONT] It is possible that civilizations in China started separately, though. And no, Judaism is not from CWC or other parts of Europe.
Judaism started locally and was influenced by the ancient people from the Mesopotamia and Babylon and by later Persians. Ancient Mesopotamian Mitanni and Persians were just natives. Jews wrote their books and laws in ancient Israel.


There were no CWC roots in ancient Levite Jews. There was only some influence by people from the Mesopotamia (like Mitanni and Hurrians) and Babylon, that's all.

And to the question why the Mesopotamia was such a culturally dominant powerhouse? Well, that's due to the Neolithic revolution and advanced metallurgy that kicked off from that region.

 

[BenjaminD]

May I ask why this troubles you? (Especially as I'm not even saying that the culture came from the Steppe or CWC, but merely that a small proportion of its people appear to have had ancestors who lived there several hundred years previously.)


Israel's iron age ended about 600 BC. Judaism surely cannot have been influenced by the Mitanni later on, as the Mitanni empire collapsed circa 1300 BC.

Like I mentioned earlier after the early Mesopotamian influences, the Judaism was influenced later on by the Jews who came back to Israel [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]after the Babylonian exile. [/FONT]The ancient [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]Achaemenids (Persian Zoroastrians)[/FONT] set them free and the Judaism was inluenced by those Zoroastrians.

What troubles me is your pushing that Z94 in Jews has to be from CWC. But how? CWC has never been Z94 and Judaism in not from CWC.


Z94 in Jews can be from the Mitanni, but it can be also from the Zoroastrian Persians. But all those people were autosomally just native to the Middle East and have never seen CWC in their live.

 

[Sile]

Like I mentioned earlier after the early Mesopotamian influences, the Judaism was influenced later on by the Jews who came back to Israel [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]after the Babylonian exile. [/FONT]The ancient [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]Achaemenids (Persian Zoroastrians)[/FONT] set them free and the Judaism was inluenced by those Zoroastrians.

What troubles me is your pushing that Z94 in Jews has to be from CWC. But how? CWC has never been Z94 and Judaism in not from CWC.


Z94 in Jews can be from the Mitanni, but it can be also from the Zoroastrian Persians. But all those people were autosomally just native to the Middle East and have never seen CWC in their live.

Persians ( Parsi ) originate in modern Tajik and Uzbekistan lands ( south Central asia )...they departed these lands bringing Zorastrian with them in circa 1000BC and headed to modern Iran

 

[Ygorcs]

Chain of chronological connections doesn't matter. If Mitanni had R1a, than it would be most likely Z94. I think so because R1a in modern populations (Arabs, Assyrians, Kurds) who live around the ancient Mitanni region is moslty Z94. 'Aryan' Z94 went through very different evolutions and has nothing to do with CWC.


Mitanni were Mesopotamian people and this region is where Judaism has got some of its influences. Judaism has got also a lot native Levant (Red Sea) roots.

I think nobody is disputing that, and also nobody - I presume you neither - is confusing genetics and culture (since you're repeatedly talking about the influences on the Jewish religion, but those are cultural aspects, not genetic ones, and there is no claim in this topic that Judaism came from CWC or was strongly influenced by it or by partially CWC-derived cultures).

But I still think it's a bit of a stretch to say that Aryan Z93 has nothing to do with CWC, even if can be proven that CWC did have both Y-DNA and autosomal connections with Sintashta (hypothetically, in the future, but there already reliable evidences pointing out to that). Even if the relation is indirect and weak, with a lot intervening autosomal admixture and cultural change, that can hardly be described as nothing to do, especially because we're not talking about huge time spans (early primates compared to moder humans, really? What a false symmetry), but about a period of about ~1500 years at most between the Mitanni and the beginning of the R1a-M417 expansion out of the steppes with CWC.

 

[Angela]

Unfortunately, I think this attempt to connect the Levites to Corded Ware is just another try at claiming Jewish accomplishments for Aryans. I realize it sounds insane, but I do think that's what's going on.

Perhaps "nothing to do" is a bit strong, but "virtually nothing to do" would be accurate I think.

On general principles, given how Eastern Europeans treated Jews, it's almost blasphemous to suggest a connection. If our poster is indeed Jewish, I would just say I can completely understand why the entire idea is distasteful.

 

[Pip]

There are a lot cimilarities between Mitanni kingdom and bmac. If Mitanni came from outside, they most probably came from the bmac. Ancient bmac dna is still very similar to the modern Iranian populations.

If the Mitanni came wholly from BMAC, then the data seems to indicate that Z94 did not come from the Mitanni.

If Z94 in India never came from the Eastern Caucasus, then why would Z94 in the Middle East come from the Eastern Caucasus? Z94 entered India from the Indus Valley and southcentral asia.

From the yDNA data I have seen, it appears unlikely that Z94 entered India from Central Asia (the East Caspian) and more likely that it entered it via the Eastern Caucasus/West Caspian. However, the two places are not on opposite sides of the world, and it would not take much to go round the Caspian shore or to cross it in a boat.

Judaism started locally and was influenced by the ancient people from the Mesopotamia and Babylon and by later Persians. Ancient Mesopotamian Mitanni and Persians were just natives. Jews wrote their books and laws in ancient Israel.

The question of where Jews wrote their laws is not really relevant to DNA.
Also, as I have said, I am not discussing Judaism per se, merely the DNA inheritance of one fraction of it.
When do you define Judaism, and in particular the Levites, as having started? How tightly do you define 'locally' as being the starting place of Judaism? When you say Judaism was 'influenced' by people from Mesopotamia, do you mean merely cultural influence, or do you accept that non-Jews from Mesopotamia joined it and become an integral part of the Jewish mix?

 

[Pip]

Unfortunately, I think this attempt to connect the Levites to Corded Ware is just another try at claiming Jewish accomplishments for Aryans. I realize it sounds insane, but I do think that's what's going on.

Perhaps "nothing to do" is a bit strong, but "virtually nothing to do" would be accurate I think.

On general principles, given how Eastern Europeans treated Jews, it's almost blasphemous to suggest a connection. If our poster is indeed Jewish, I would just say I can completely understand why the entire idea is distasteful.

Angela, I'm very surprised that you think my posts are anything whatsoever about claiming Jewish accomplishments for Aryans. I have only written about DNA data and haven't mentioned, or indeed thought, anything about Jewish accomplishments or otherwise; and also have been at pains to mention that the Z93 I am looking at represents only a small fraction of the Jewish DNA mix. I am also a little confused by how it might be blasphemous to suggest where people from Chalcolithic Eastern Europe might have migrated; but if you (and perhaps Benjamin) consider it distasteful to discuss such a thing, I am happy to desist from posting any further on this thread. The last thing I want to do is to upset anyone.

 

[Ygorcs]

There is no evidence that EEF in Sintashta is of CWC origin. EEF (Anatolian from ancient Armenia) in Sintashta could be from southcentral Asia, can be even from BMAC culture.

EEF in South-Central Asia or in BMAC without any Iran_Neolithic and any of the South Asian affinities already found in the Turan area (source: "the" Central/South Asian paper), but with a lot of extra WHG (after all, EEF is not ANF, it's a mix with varying amounts of WHG)? Unlikely. It probably came from the west, it's the less convoluted explanation.

Mitanni 'Aryans' were very different from Sintashta. The distance and a gap in space between Mitanni Culture and Sintashta doesn't feed the theory at all that both cultures are related to each other. Mitanni Kingdom is located in a very different area than a Sintashta Culure. Why would they travel that far at the first place? And even culturally they were not really similar to each other.

Well, people change their culture even if their ancestors came from elsewhere and another culture not long ago. I don't think people would expect modern white Americans to have the same culture of Angles and Saxons in the North Sea coast 1500 years ago, but the strong genetic connection (and even cultural remnants) is there. As for why would they travel that far at the first place, why don't you ask that same question about the Turks and Mongols who came originally from even farther than the Sintasha and/or Srubna people? Perhaps that didn't happen at all, as they had no "reason" to travel that far into a region that, by the way, was the most civilized and wealthy part of the globe 3500 years ago? Maybe...

As for the assertion that the Mitanni were not culturally and genetically like the CWC, that is really undisputable, but I don't think anyone claimed that in this topic. If the proposed chain is for example pre-CWC steppe > Easternmost CWC > Sintashta > Indo-Aryan somewhere in Central Asia (perhaps along the Tian Shan and Hindu Kush and later into Turan and East Iran) > North Mesopotamia along ~1500 years, there was plenty of time, geographical variation and contact with other peoples for them to become autosomally and culturally very distinct (especially since the Mitanni seem to have been a military elite, not a mass of immigrants, a transfer of an entire people).

 

[Ygorcs]

Unfortunately, I think this attempt to connect the Levites to Corded Ware is just another try at claiming Jewish accomplishments for Aryans. I realize it sounds insane, but I do think that's what's going on.

Perhaps "nothing to do" is a bit strong, but "virtually nothing to do" would be accurate I think.

On general principles, given how Eastern Europeans treated Jews, it's almost blasphemous to suggest a connection. If our poster is indeed Jewish, I would just say I can completely understand why the entire idea is distasteful.

Yes, but that remains totally subjective (and unfortunately, if Pip is right, facts don't care about feelings, especially not ancient facts vis a vis modern feelings). Besides, CWC were not the modern Eastern Europeans and, in any case, the connection purported here is very indirect (and is just genetic, not cultural). Modern Eastern Europeans aren't even perfect proxies for the ancient CWC individuals AFAIK, are they?

 

[Ygorcs]

bmac has been associated with the indo-iranian people. There are a lot cimilarities between Mitanni kingdom and bmac. If Mitanni came from outside, they most probably came from the bmac. Ancient bmac dna is still very similar to the modern Iranian populations.

Are you sure about that? We don't have many BMAC ancient DNA samples or samples from areas near BMAC, but the few scientists have analysed did not seem to have any R1a at all (far less Z94) and, though their genetic structure has clear and strong affinities to modern Iranians, they were not "very similar" to them, and above all they lacked all the (minor, but still relevant) steppe ancestry present in modern Iranians (and I also believe they had less ANF and Levant_Neolithic than the modern ones, but I'm not sure about that).

 

[Ygorcs]

Sintashta is located in Kazakhstan. By ancient Kazakh Z93 I mean Andronovo, Sintashta horizon. R1a in Sintashta, modern day Kazakhstan was Z93 and not Z283. What I'm saying is that Z93 was already present in Kazakhstan even before Sintashta. It is even mentioned on eupedia page of r1a:
Where is evidence that Mitanni were from Sintashta? Who is saying that Mitanni came from Sintashta? If Mitanni had R1a it was most probably Z94. Very different from CWC and 'northern Ukraine'. But Mitanni 'Aryans' had also different dna like maybe J2a and R1b and they were very different from Sintashta, let alone CWC. They didn't find Z94 in BMAC, but they found J2a. If part of Mitanni came from central asia, it was most likely bmac and even part of J2a in Mitanni could be also from bmac.

But how do you know Z93 was already present in Kazakhstan well before Sintashta? Sorry, but you clearly misread what the Eupedia page on R1a states. It's about the very old/basal and divergent clades of R1a found in Iran, which led some people to hypothesize R1a appeared or at least diversified in Iran. The text is talking about other clades of R1a that have nothing to do with the downstream descendants of M417. So, that assertion is most definitely NOT about R1a-Z93, which is very obviously a muuuuch more recent clade that is brother to Z283 and definitely not any older than the Late Chalcolithic era, but in fact probably - if yFull and other sources are considered, not just the source you prefer and its 3800 BC estimate - during the Early Bronze Age. In any case, considering Z283 and Z93 were together as the same Z645 clade (downstream of M417) in the Late Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age, and that coincidentally or not M417 or Z645 has been found only in Pontic-Caspian DNA samples from that period (3000-4000 BC), then I think it's fair to say that it's just wrong to say that the Indo-Iranian peoples (Mitanni included) had absolutely nothing to do with the earlier steppe-derived populations, mainly Sintashta and perhaps Srubna. Of course, to say two peoples are connected is not to claim that they were the same people, as if hundreds of years of migrations, admixture events and cultural changes didn't have any impact.

 

[Ygorcs]

Mitanni Aryans were actually much more similar to the modern native population of Mesopotamia than to other people outside the Middle East. Their language is still spoken in the Middle East and their genetic and cultural influeces are still all over the Middle East.

No, it's not certain that their language is not spoken in the Middle East yet. Most Mitanni actually spoke Hurrian and eventually seem to have shifted entirely to it, anyway, but the elite's IE language had the characteristics of an Indo-Aryan language, not an Iranic language like those that still exist in the Middle East. No Indo-Aryan language is natively found there since a long time ago.

It seems to me you just can't accept the (extremely likely, as with most ancient or present peoples) possibility that any ancient Middle Eastern population may have had multiple ancestral components, and some of them may have come from outside the Middle East. They didn't need to "come from elsewhere" (as their ethnogenesis was obviously local) to be partly descended from migrants from distant lands. That happened even in historic times (in the last 2000 years), so I doubt very much it couldn't have happened earlier, especially given all the genetic, linguistic and cultural evidences available.

 

[Angela]

Yes, but that remains totally subjective (and unfortunately, if Pip is right, facts don't care about feelings, especially not ancient facts vis a vis modern feelings). Besides, CWC were not the modern Eastern Europeans and, in any case, the connection purported here is very indirect (and is just genetic, not cultural). Modern Eastern Europeans aren't even perfect proxies for the ancient CWC individuals AFAIK, are they?

Facts come first, always, and a logical and honest analysis of them. In that regard, however, it's always good to understand the motivations which might lead certain facts, and not others, to be used or, perhaps, misused.

Indeed, modern Eastern Europeans aren't perfect proxies for the ancient CWC, but many of the ones on social media, the Nordicist ones, think they are...

Not, by the way, accusing Pip of those kinds of motivations. He might just be motivated by intellectual curiosity.

As to the merits of the matter, I just think the connection is so tenuous, even if it could be proved to be real, as to be irrelevant. We're talking in the best case scenario a subclade of a brother clade separated by who knows how many years, yes? Also ydna doesn't control as many things as some men would like to believe. It's a very small portion of anyone's genetic make-up. It certainly has nothing to do with intellect.

So, whatever...


I mean, I don't see people thinking it's very important that a few R1b V-88 men made it to Chad in Africa and got lucky there. What could it possibly mean to those African herders?

Looking at it from a woman's point of view, I don't sit and ponder exactly how some U2e woman's line survived from the Paleolithic to get to me in the Lunigiana. Nor do I think it gives me some sort of connection with Finns or wherever else there are a lot of them.

Don't mind me. I just was never much into uniparental markers.

 

[Ygorcs]

Facts come first, always, and a logical and honest analysis of them. In that regard, however, it's always good to understand the motivations which might lead certain facts, and not others, to be used or, perhaps, misused.

Indeed, modern Eastern Europeans aren't perfect proxies for the ancient CWC, but many of the ones on social media, the Nordicist ones, think they are...

Not, by the way, accusing Pip of those kinds of motivations. He might just be motivated by intellectual curiosity.

As to the merits of the matter, I just think the connection is so tenuous, even if it could be proved to be real, as to be irrelevant. We're talking in the best case scenario a subclade of a brother clade separated by who knows how many years, yes? Also ydna doesn't control as many things as some men would like to believe. It's a very small portion of anyone's genetic make-up. It certainly has nothing to do with intellect.

Fair enough. Personally I just think it's yet another interesting stance of a population that resulted from several successive admixture events on a row (so my particular interest is exactly the opposite of what Nordicists love to claim, that is, what I appreciate is exactly the multiple and mixed origins of most peoples). And I certainly don't think the genetic impact was necessarily correlated with cultural impact. Those are two different things, especially because significant cultural impact can happen without any non-negligible genetic flow (just look at the globalized USA influence). But you're right that for some people this topic may not be just about intellectual curiosity, and they conflate modern ideologies and national feelings with the very remote past.