Corded Ware roots of Levite DNA?

[BenjaminD]

My provisional view is that Z93 was an offshoot from most likely Southern Polish/NW Ukrainian Corded Ware that for the most part migrated eastwards across the Steppe towards the Caspian Sea on Corded Ware's demise.

Z93 is at least 5800 years old. It is much older than CWC. Z93 was already in Kazakhstan before any Sintashta or Corded Ware Cultures were formed.

Like as you said that Corded Ware was not only limited to Z283, but also I1, I2, R1b and other haplogoups. So, ancient Aryans were not only limited to Z94, but also other haplogroups that can be found in Asia.
By the time when people started to call themselves Aryans in Asia, Z93 already involved into Z94. That means that Z94 was already part of the Aryans. And Z94 (evolved from Z93) has nothing to do with 'Southern Polish/NW Ukrainian Corded War'.

CWC was not 'Aryan' since it belonged to a diffent branch of R1a than 'Aryan' Z94. Also, like you said R1a was not the only DNA in CWC. CWC had also dna like R1b, I1.

And Z94 was not the only dna in Mitanni. Mitanni were also J2a and other dna.

If Mitanni had some R1a, than it would be most likely Z94, since by that time there was already a split of Z94 from Z93. But nevertheless, autosomally speaking, Mitanni 'Aryans' from 1600 BC were very different from CWC from 2200 BC or Sintashta.

Z94 in Levite Jews has nothing to do with CWC or Sintashta, but came most likely from the Hurrians and ancient Mitanni, Persians, Medes or Parthians.

 

[BenjaminD]

The answer to your question is that R1a in Levite DNA is actually from Hurrians, Mitanni, Persians and not from CWC or Sintashta.

Judaism has Mesopotamian roots. And Hurrians, Mitanni were Mesopotamian people.

And, how Hurrians, Mitanni or Persians got their R1a is a different question and has nothing to do with the Levite DNA.

 

[BenjaminD]

Doesn't Sintashta-Petrovka and CW R1a clades ultimately derive from an earlier M417 clade and probably have a common origin in the same Pontic-Caspian to North/Northeast Europe (and later back to the steppes) expansion?

Split of Z93 from M417 took place around 3800 BC and it was even before Yamnaya. R1a in Kazakhstan predate any CWC and Sintashta cultures.

 

[Ygorcs]

Z94 in Levite Jews has nothing to do with CWC or Sintashta, but came most likely from the Hurrians and ancient Mitanni, Persians, Medes or Parthians.

Well, then it probably does have something to do with Sintasha and/or CWC, because Hurrians probably took it from the Mitanni, Persians, Medes and Parthians, as you say, who by their turn probably derived from Sintashta. And Sintashta is certainly linked to earlier CWC, though not necessarily derived directly from it. It's just that the chain of chronological connection is not direct, but the link is there.

 

[Ygorcs]

Split of Z93 from M417 took place around 3800 BC and it was even before Yamnaya. R1a in Kazakhstan predate any CWC and Sintashta cultures.

What's your source for that claim? Are you talking about ancient DNA in Kazakhstan?

 

[BenjaminD]

What's your source for that claim? Are you talking about ancient DNA in Kazakhstan?

Actually ancient and modern, because ancient became part of a modern population.

I got it from a study on R1a. They estimate the splintering of R1a-M417 to have occurred ~5800 years ago (Underhill et al, p. 130). And this was really way before CWC.

 

[BenjaminD]

Well, then it probably does have something to do with Sintasha and/or CWC, because Hurrians probably took it from the Mitanni, Persians, Medes and Parthians, as you say, who by their turn probably derived from Sintashta. And Sintashta is certainly linked to earlier CWC, though not necessarily derived directly from it. It's just that the chain of chronological connection is not direct, but the link is there.

If we folow the chain of chronological connections, we could end up with the early primates.

Chains don't matter. All what matters is direct ancestry and the autosomal distribution of those direct ancestors.

So, there is no direct connection at all. So, R1a in Levite Jews was not the same (autosomally) as R1a of people before Mitanni etc.

Levite Jews could have R1a arguably from Mitanni. The roots could be Mitannian etc. (directly) and not CWC at all. Where Mitanni got it, is up to a different duscussion and we can speculate about it for hours. But that is not the point.

Mitanni were not the same as CWC or Sintashta, that is for sure.


The question was Corded Ware roots of Levite DNA? The answer is no, because R1a was maybe from Mitanni. And Mitanni were by far not the same as CWC. And Levite Jews have also different major haplogroups. R1a is actually a minor dna in Levite Jews.

 

[BenjaminD]

If we folow the chain of chronological connections, we could end up with the early primates.

And are modern humans the same as early primates? Of course not. There were many evolutions.

Chain of chronological connections doesn't matter. If Mitanni had R1a, than it would be most likely Z94. I think so because R1a in modern populations (Arabs, Assyrians, Kurds) who live around the ancient Mitanni region is moslty Z94. 'Aryan' Z94 went through very different evolutions and has nothing to do with CWC.


Mitanni were Mesopotamian people and this region is where Judaism has got some of its influences. Judaism has got also a lot native Levant (Red Sea) roots.

 

[Pip]

Z93 is at least from 3800 BC and it predates CWC.

yfull dates the age of the Z93 mutation as somewhere between 2700 and 3000 BC. Its dating is based on SNP mutations over the entire yDNA sequence. My own analysis is based on an entirely different methodology (STR mutations analysed within precise SNPs) and dates the age of the Z93 mutation as somewhere between 2730 and 3250 BC. Z93 might be older than these dates, but I am not aware of any certain evidence that it is at least from 3800 BC.

There is no evidence that EEF in Sintashta is of CWC origin. EEF (Anatolian from ancient Armenia) in Sintashta could be from southcentral Asia, can be even from BMAC culture.

There is no definite evidence that EEF in Sintashta is of CWC origin, nor is there any evidence that it is not of CWC origin. The EEF in Sintashta is highly unlikely to be of South Central Asian origin, as Sintashta's autosomal mix is starkly different to that in prior South Central Asian samples. It is, however, almost identical to the mix and proportions found in prior-dated Corded Ware samples.

Mitanni 'Aryans' were very different from Sintashta. The distance and a gap in space between Mitanni Culture and Sintashta doesn't feed the theory at all that both cultures are related to each other. Mitanni Kingdom is located in a very different area than a Sintashta Culure. Why would they travel that far at the first place?

Yes, Mitanni were probably different from Sintashta, as they were formed from a mix of Sintashta with Middle Eastern peoples. People travelled long distances for all sorts of reasons - to find a more amenable environment or climate in which to live, to raid, to flee. We know that Anatolians and Steppe people moved into Central Europe - why should we presume that they would not also move in the opposite direction?

 

[Pip]

True, Corded Ware was not limited to Z283. And there are no other haplogroups in Asia that would come from CWC. That's why it is not logical that Z93 came from CWC.

It is perfectly logical that a small branch of Corded Ware with Z93 might migrate away from Europe, whilst most other branches of Corded Ware were collapsing and becoming extinct.

Z93 predate CWC culture, this leads toward an assuption that Z93 was not derived from CWC. It is in conflict with chronology.

Even if this were true, there is no conflict. L51 predates Yamnaya, but this does not rule out the possibility that L51 in Western Europe derives from Yamnaya.

Sintashta's R1a was in that region before CWC.

What evidence do you have of this? My understanding is that Sintashta only dates back to 2100 BC, shortly after Corded Ware ended.

Sumerian creation stories are very old. Epic of Gilgamesh is at least as old as the earliest Sumerian writings

I have read that the earliest record of the Epic of Gilgamesh dates to approximately 2000 BC. Yes, very old, but not as old as Sintashta, Z93 or Corded Ware.

 

[BenjaminD]

yfull dates the age of the Z93 mutation as somewhere between 2700 and 3000 BC. Its dating is based on SNP mutations over the entire yDNA sequence. My own analysis is based on an entirely different methodology (STR mutations analysed within precise SNPs) and dates the age of the Z93 mutation as somewhere between 2730 and 3250 BC. Z93 might be older than these dates, but I am not aware of any certain evidence that it is at least from 3800 BC.

The mutation is still older than CWC and Sintashta.

There is no definite evidence that EEF in Sintashta is of CWC origin, nor is there any evidence that it is not of CWC origin. The EEF in Sintashta is highly unlikely to be of South Central Asian origin, as Sintashta's autosomal mix is starkly different to that in prior South Central Asian samples. It is, however, almost identical to the mix and proportions found in prior-dated Corded Ware samples.

Yeah, the population in the ancient Steppes was not diverse and all of them were related to each other. What we know for sure is that EEF was not native to the Steppes and that it came from somewhere else outside the Steppes.

Yes, Mitanni were probably different from Sintashta, as they were formed from a mix of Sintashta with Middle Eastern peoples. People travelled long distances for all sorts of reasons - to find a more amenable environment or climate in which to live, to raid, to flee. We know that Anatolians and Steppe people moved into Central Europe - why should we presume that they would not also move in the opposite direction?

Mitanni Aryans were very different from Sintashta. Exactly, Mitanni Aryans were Middle Eastern people. If Mitanni came from somewehere else outside the Middle East, they should have some direct links with BMAC and not Sintashta. To enter the Middle East ancient people from Kazakhstan shoult pass BMAC area first and travel all the way via Iran. Nevertheless, Mitanni has more links with BMAC than Sintashta.

 

[Pip]

Like as you said that Corded Ware was not only limited to Z283, but also I1, I2, R1b and other haplogoups.
CWC was not 'Aryan' since it belonged to a diffent branch of R1a than 'Aryan' Z94. Also, like you said R1a was not the only DNA in CWC. CWC had also dna like R1b, I1.

Corded Ware was almost exclusively R1a-M417, but of different branches of M417, not just Z283.

And Z94 was not the only dna in Mitanni. Mitanni were also J2a and other dna.

I don't believe we have any information to determine for sure what Mitanni's yDNA was, but it was likely to have included J2a that was picked up predominantly by a Sintashta-related Z93 population as it moved into the Caucasus region.

If Mitanni had some R1a, than it would be most likely Z94, since by that time there was already a split of Z94 from Z93. But nevertheless, autosomally speaking, Mitanni 'Aryans' from 1600 BC were very different from CWC from 2200 BC or Sintashta.

Agreed, this is likely.

Z94 in Levite Jews has nothing to do with CWC or Sintashta, but came most likely from the Hurrians and ancient Mitanni, Persians, Medes or Parthians.

I agree that it probably came from the Hurrians and ancient Mitanni, Persians, Medes or Parthians, and before this from a Sintashta and Corded Ware-related population.

I estimate from current data that the extant branches of the R1a-M417 population all most likely roamed over the entire area of Northern Ukraine and surrounding districts at around 4000 BC (including those giving rise to Corded Ware, Sintashta, and the likely Z94 bearers within the Mitanni and Levite Judaism), and did not have a significant presence anywhere else.

 

[BenjaminD]

It is perfectly logical that a small branch of Corded Ware with Z93 might migrate away from Europe, whilst most other branches of Corded Ware were collapsing and becoming extinct.

To much assumptions. Z93 is older than CWC and there is no Z93 in CWC. So, we can easily rule out CWC origin of Z93.

I have read that the earliest record of the Epic of Gilgamesh dates to approximately 2000 BC. Yes, very old, but not as old as Sintashta, Z93 or Corded Ware.

Epic of Gilgamesh takes place in a mountainous area between 2 rivers, which refers of course to the northern parts of the Mesopotamia.

Mountains and rivers are a crucial part to the Epic of Gilgamesh. And the environment in Epic of Gilgamesh doesn't look like as an environment in Kazakhstan.

Epic of Gilgamesh is clearly a native Mesopotamian story.

 

[Pip]

If we folow the chain of chronological connections, we could end up with the early primates.

Chains don't matter. All what matters is direct ancestry and the autosomal distribution of those direct ancestors.

So, there is no direct connection at all. So, R1a in Levite Jews was not the same (autosomally) as R1a of people before Mitanni etc.

Levite Jews could have R1a arguably from Mitanni. The roots could be Mitannian etc. (directly) and not CWC at all. Where Mitanni got it, is up to a different duscussion and we can speculate about it for hours. But that is not the point.

Mitanni were not the same as CWC or Sintashta, that is for sure.


The question was Corded Ware roots of Levite DNA? The answer is no, because R1a was maybe from Mitanni. And Mitanni were by far not the same as CWC. And Levite Jews have also different major haplogroups. R1a is actually a minor dna in Levite Jews.

Agreed, Benjamin. I'm not trying to equate modern, or even ancient, Judaism with Corded Ware. Autosomally and culturally, they are very different. I am hypothesising, based on data, that a Corded Ware-related population became a minor component within early Judaism, just as many other ancient peoples were. This R1a-M417 component is perhaps more striking, because it appears to have more distant and divergent origins, that is all.

 

[BenjaminD]

I don't believe we have any information to determine for sure what Mitanni's yDNA was, but it was likely to have included J2a that was picked up predominantly by a Sintashta-related Z93 population as it moved into the Caucasus region.

The only Iranian speaking people in that area are Kurds and further east Iranians. Like Mitanni they are speakers of Indo-Iranian dialects. Most of R1a in them is Z94. So, we can assume that Mitanni were similiar to moderday Iranian people in the Middle East. And that's why I do assume that Mitanni were Z94 like other modern Iranian people in that region.

I agree that it probably came from the Hurrians and ancient Mitanni, Persians, Medes or Parthians, and before this from a Sintashta and Corded Ware-related population.

No, Mitanni were just native Middle Eastern people, but if Mitanni came from outside, BMAC is better fit for them that Sintashta. Corded Ware-related populations have nothing to do with the Mitanni in the Middle East. Mitanni have also many cultural links with the BMAC.

Autosomally Mitanni and CWC were 2 totally different populations and R1a doesn't match at all.

I estimate from current data that the extant branches of the R1a-M417 population all most likely roamed over the entire area of Northern Ukraine and surrounding districts at around 4000 BC (including those giving rise to Corded Ware, Sintashta, and the likely Z94 bearers within the Mitanni and Levite Judaism), and did not have a significant presence anywhere else.

Northern Ukrainians or Slavic people had and have nothing to do with the Aryans. Those were 2 different populations with different roots.

People in what you mention Northern Ukraine have different haplogroups (not only R1a-Z283, but also other dna), but they are also autosomally very different. But not only what matter dna, but also in regard to language and culture. Language and culture of the Mitanni Aryans was very different from people in Northern Ukraine. There is no ancient link between them, neither direct, nor indirect.

Once again, there is no Z94 in CWC and even Z93 is older than CWC let alone Sintashta. And there was also no Z94 what came after CWC. Z93 was already present in Kazakhstan before Sintashta.

 

[Pip]

The mutation is still older than CWC and Sintashta.


Yeah, the population in the ancient Steppes was not diverse and all of them were related to each other. What we know for sure is that EEF was not native to the Steppes and that it came from somewhere else outside the Steppes.


Mitanni Aryans were very different from Sintashta. Exactly, Mitanni Aryans were Middle Eastern people. If Mitanni came from somewehere else outside the Middle East, they should have some direct links with BMAC and not Sintashta. To enter the Middle East ancient people from Kazakhstan shoult pass BMAC area first and travel all the way via Iran. Nevertheless, Mitanni has more links with BMAC than Sintashta.

I certainly don't dispute that any Z2124 found in BMAC (estimated age 2700 BC) would be related to the Z2124 found in Sintashta or any to be found in Mitanni. However, Narasimhan's study of the BMAC tested the yDNA of 18 BMAC samples, and none were found to be R1a (let alone Z2124).

 

[Pip]

Epic of Gilgamesh takes place in a mountainous area between 2 rivers, which refers of course to the northern parts of the Mesopotamia.

Mountains and rivers are a crucial part to the Epic of Gilgamesh. And the environment in Epic of Gilgamesh doesn't look like as an environment in Kazakhstan.

Epic of Gilgamesh is clearly a native Mesopotamian story.

Not disputed. I have no opinion on it. I was just saying its earliest source was dated to 2000 BC.

 

[Pip]

People in what you mention Northern Ukraine have different haplogroups (not only R1a-Z283, but also other dna), but they are also autosomally very different. But not only what matter dna, but also in regard to language and culture. Language and culture of the Mitanni Aryans was very different from people in Northern Ukraine. There is no ancient link between them, neither direct, nor indirect.

Once again, there is no Z94 in CWC and even Z93 is older than CWC let alone Sintashta. And there was also no Z94 what came after CWC. Z93 was already present in Kazakhstan before Sintashta.

I cannot see any logical reason for coming to such a definitive conclusion.
The link between ancient North Ukraine and Sintashta per se is clear. A Ukrainian sample from the early 4th millennium BC (I6561) is indistinguishable autosomally from Sintashta samples, despite both having major differences to samples from other parts of the Steppe, Middle East and Central Asia.
I think this has been asked before - what is this ancient Kazakh Z93 sample to which you refer? I would be grateful if you would supply details.

 

[BenjaminD]

Agreed, Benjamin. I'm not trying to equate modern, or even ancient, Judaism with Corded Ware. Autosomally and culturally, they are very different. I am hypothesising, based on data, that a Corded Ware-related population became a minor component within early Judaism, just as many other ancient peoples were. This R1a-M417 component is perhaps more striking, because it appears to have more distant and divergent origins, that is all.

There are 5 official books of Written Torah. Written Torah was also heavily influenced by Talmud (Oral Torah). Both, Written and Oral Torah have links with the Babylonian captivity and were mostly completed during the period of Achaemenid rule (Iranians).

Like I mentioned, Written Torah consists of 5 books. Bəreshit/Genesis, Shəmot/Exodus, Vayikra/Leviticus, Bəmidbar/Numbers and Dəvarim/Deuteronomy.

The Book of Leviticus is related to the Levites. It was developed during the Achaemenid (Median/Aryan) era. Nothing to do with the Mitanni and definately nothing to do with the Sintashta.

 

[Pip]

There are 5 official books of Written Torah. Written Torah was also heavily influenced by Talmud (Oral Torah). Both, Written and Oral Torah have links with the Babylonian captivity and were mostly completed during the period of Achaemenid rule (Iranians).

Like I mentioned, Written Torah consists of 5 books. Bəreshit/Genesis, Shəmot/Exodus, Vayikra/Leviticus, Bəmidbar/Numbers and Dəvarim/Deuteronomy.

The Book of Leviticus is related to the Levites. It was developed during the Achaemenid (Median/Aryan) era. Nothing to do with the Mitanni and definately nothing to do with the Sintashta.

I wish I was as sure about things as you are.