Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Archetype0ne]

Happy New Year Fellas!

 

[enter_tain]

It's New Year and this man is still crying about bogeyman called Matzinger.

Obviously masks have fallen. If anything not in their favor, they start crying like babies.

Aren't you the guy that is desperate for Proto-Illyrians/Albanians to be EV-13 and are making up theories? Obviously, you fall right in line with Matzinger: make up stuff to fit your narrative.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

Again, let me clarify a bit better of what I meant what this Matzinger is claiming if you look at some of his work in 2009 - 2016 etc

Matzinger claims 'Sharr' and 'Shkoder' do not follow Albanian phonetic laws and that Sc / Sk must of eventually entirely changed into 'h' using, in which he claims is some Greek loan word, 'hurdher' which had originally started with Sk or Sc or that the 'Sc' in Latin should of turned into 'h' in Albanian and not 'Shk'

Yet claims the Ancient city 'Skopje' in North Macedonia which was 'Scupi' turned in this case into 'Shkup' in Albanian and does follow such laws (which is agreed by linguists) In this case there was a or 'sh' 'shk' change from 'Sc' similar to 'Shkoder' , 'Sharr' etc . The last ones which he claims do not follow such laws despite they changed in a similar way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skopje

This argument was basically used by Schramm earlier which Matzinger copied.


I quote again, it was basically shown by Cabej and Noel Malcolm that many Albanian words or Latin loan words changed like this which I had quoted above and I quote again:

This claim is put forward as a prime argument against the 'Illyrian' origins of the Albanians by Schramm: Eroberer, pp. 33-4; Anfange, p. 23. It had already been answered by Cabej, who pointed out that the shift to 'h' belonged to a much earlier (pre-Roman) period of Albanian: 'Problem of Autochthony', p. 44. Schramm's case can be disproved by a series of Albanian borrowings from Latin, such as shkorse (rug) from scortea, shkendije (spark) from scantilla, shkemb (rock-formation) from scamnum, and shkop (staff) from scopae: see Capidan, 'Raporturile'. pp. 546-8; Philippide, Originea Rominilor, vol. 2, pp. 653-4; Cabej, 'Zur Charakteristik', p. 177; and the entries in Meyer, Etymologisches Worterbuch.

Noel Malcolm claims Shkoder, Nish, Shtip, Shkup etc follow Albanian development, I quote again.

including the towns of Shkodra, Drisht, Lezha, Shkup (Skopje) and perhaps Shtip (Stip, south-east of Skopje) - follow the pattern of continuous Albanian development from the Latin. [48] (One common objection to this argument, claiming that 'sc-' in Latin should have turned into 'h-', not 'shk-' in Albanian, rests on a chronological error, and can be disregarded.) [49] There are also some fairly convincing derivations of Slav names for rivers in northern Albania - particularly the Bojana (Alb.: Buena) and the Drim (Alb.: Drin) - which suggest that the Slavs must have acquired their names from the Albanian forms.

As does Katicic which I quoted above and I quote again

Niš from Ναϊσσός, Štip from Ἄστιβος, Šar from Scardus, and Ohrid from Lychnidus presuppose the sound development characteristic for Albanian.

In antiquity, the mountains were known as Scardus, Scodrus, or Scordus (το Σκάρδον ὂρος in Polybius and Ptolemy)

So 'Scardus' turned into Albanian 'Sharr' and was picked up by Slavs as 'Sar' . This is also in a similar fashion to how 'Scutari' turned to 'Shkoder' or how 'Scupi' turned into Albanian 'Shkup' .

So 'Mat' is also not Albanian toponym according to Matzinger. Neither Drin, Bojana, Ulqin, Shkoder, Sharr etc. yet somehow 'Shkup' , 'Shtip', 'Nish' which
seemed to of changed in a similar fashion follow such laws apparently.


Also just some 'ul', 'ur', I found in Albania

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macukull
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burrel_(town)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulëz
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurrë


Matzinger, in his older work, claims that the structure of Thracian and Dacian could of existed in Albanian and been lost, this was in responding to Noel Malcolm (See Matzinger 2009, provides no evidence or examples) yet claims Illyrian is an extinct language based on some dubious claims of 'ul' 'ur' 'um' , 'ae', which supposedly could never of been lost in Albanian or Messapian and that we are supposedly looking at different languages. Claims also the connection between Albanian and Messapian could of happened randomly in the Ancient Balkans at a time when cultures and people there were similar (Matzinger 2009), yet seems to claim Illyrian is something totally different and now extinct based on some dubious claims. Again makes no sense. (There is evidence to debunk all these claims, see Coon and see Messapian)

To me this guy makes no sense.

 

[enter_tain]

Is Matzinger the only guy that argues that? Everyone I've read pretty much states that Albanian cities follow sound laws.

Even Durres, both the Italian/Albanian versions (independent of one another) have the "u/y" from Doric Greek, not the later Byzantine "i". Meaning they have a very ancient tie to that city.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

Also according to Matzinger the town of Drisht in Northern Albania which changed from 'Drivastum' to 'Drisht' does not follow Albanian changes despite it changed like pretty similar to places like Astibos(Shtip), Naissos(Nish), Scupi(Shkup) , in this case the town of Viciana in Kosovo (known in Latin as Vicianium) followed a similar pattern of change into 'Vushtrri'.

 

[torzio]

Is Matzinger the only guy that argues that? Everyone I've read pretty much states that Albanian cities follow sound laws.

Even Durres, both the Italian/Albanian versions (independent of one another) have the "u/y" from Doric Greek, not the later Byzantine "i". Meaning they have a very ancient tie to that city.

Clearly your history starts when you want it to start to fit your criteria

Durrës was founded by Ancient Greek colonists from Corinth and Corcyra under the name of Epidamnos around the 7th century BC

It was clearly founded by Greeks ...............what fairy tale book do you read?



Durrës


Founded as Epidamnus by Greeks from Corcyra and Corinth in the 7th century bce, it was seized by the Illyrian king Glaucias in 312 bce. It later passed to the Romans, who called it Dyrrhachium and made it the terminus of their military highway (Via Egnatia),


Via Egnatia ....the main road from Durres to Constantinople ..............a very important road for the Romans ..............clearly the Romans knew who lived there

 

[Hawk]

I wouldn't be surprised if it is Central Balkans aka Ancient Dardania and Paeonia.

After all it's so close, and we already have had the lesson from aDNA that people were constantly moving from prehistoric times.

 

[Hawk]

I wouldn't be surprised if it is Central Balkans aka Ancient Dardania and Paeonia.

After all it's so close, and we already have had the lesson from aDNA that people were constantly moving from prehistoric times.

E-V13 has far more powerful demographics than J2b2-L283 who is very weakly presented among Tosks, and likely it's because very recent Northern influences, like in case of Fier where Kosovar migrants are noted.

On the other hand E-V13 is universally present among Albanian populations with marginal differences in percentage. So, i assume E-V13 was the core founder of Albanoid population. Skanderbeg and Frasheri brothers widely considered as key figures of modern Albanian nation even belong to the same E-V13 subclade: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z17107/

 

[Fustan]

Tosks have an incredibly high amount of foreign Y-DNA and should not be used into the inquiry of proto-Albanian Y-DNA. The fact that they have more J2a than J2b shows that even much of their E-V13 might not even be of Albanian origin either. If we want to look at the haplogroups that the Illyrians/Proto-Albanians used it makes much more sense to look at Ghegs, especially the most mountainous ones, which show as much J2-L283 as E-V13 and even more in some cases.

 

[Hawk]

Tosks have an incredibly high amount of foreign Y-DNA and should not be used into the inquiry of proto-Albanian Y-DNA. The fact that they have more J2a than J2b shows that even much of their E-V13 might not even be of Albanian origin either. If we want to look at the haplogroups that the Illyrians/Proto-Albanians used it makes much more sense to look at Ghegs, especially the most mountainous ones, which show as much J2-L283 as E-V13 and even more in some cases.

Not the Labs, who have far more higher E-V13 and lower J2b2-L283.

As for those J2b2-L283 in Tropoj, it was likely targeting Krasniqi tribe lol.

All in all, you can not artificially pump your Y-DNA and without passing bullshit radar.

To me it looks like a bulk of J2b2-L283 somewhere in Montenegro border were assimilated by Proto-Albanoids. This is the pattern i see.

 

[ihype02]

Tosks have an incredibly high amount of foreign Y-DNA and should not be used into the inquiry of proto-Albanian Y-DNA. The fact that they have more J2a than J2b shows that even much of their E-V13 might not even be of Albanian origin either. If we want to look at the haplogroups that the Illyrians/Proto-Albanians used it makes much more sense to look at Ghegs, especially the most mountainous ones, which show as much J2-L283 as E-V13 and even more in some cases.

Malsors have only 14% R1b-Z2103 and very minimal Slavic Y-Dna compared to Tosks. Imagine how low would R1b go for them if they had more Slavic Y-Dna. Tosks, imo, had lower J2b from the beginning pretty much around 10-15%.

 

[Hawk]

A very nice and detailed analysis by user Aspar.

The thing is, Brnjica can't be really connected to Dardanians directly, only indirectly.
That's one big mistake some archaeologists made, trying to connect Brnjica with the Dardanians.

But chronological wise things just don't fit because Brnjica Culture was mainly associated with the territory of Kosovo and the surrounding during the LBA, just before the bronze age collapse. The Dardanians are only attested for the first time in their core area around Kosovo during the IA, well after the the very turbulent times of the bronze age collapse. So what happened after the bronze age collapse with the bearers of the Brnjica Culture? They migrated southwards to Central Macedonia. This is documented by the archaeologists who prescribed the destruction of the local Ulanci-Vardar group to the bearers of the Brnjica Culture who in their turn were pushed southwards by the bearers of the Channeled Ware Belegish II - Gava. During the IA in Central Macedonia there were no Dardanians but Paeonians. These were mysterious group of people and as of now it can't be said for sure whether they were mostly Thracian, Illyrian or Greek. They seem to have had both the Thraco-Illyrian and Greek elements. Many of the names of the Paeonians are perfectly explainable with the Greek language. It seems in their push southwards, the Paeonians from the Brnjica Culture intermingled with the bearers of the local Ulanci-Vardar group who were heavily Mycenaecized sort of, producing local Mycenaean like(monochrome and matt painted) pottery. Whether the Ulanci-Vardar group can be connected to the Phrigians is hard to say but it's tempting nevertheless.
Later, the bearers of the Brnjica Culture pushed northwards and took some of the previously lost territory around the Pcinja region in north-east Macedonia, south-west Bulgaria and south-east Serbia. They brought some non-local elements with them such as the 'Macedonian bronze' evidencing of their cultural intermingling with population further south. These perfectly corresponds with the territory of the Paeonians and not the Dardanians that were located mainly just north of the Paeonians.

So what about the territory of Kosovo which was considered the core area of the Dardanians?
Well, the local Pcinja group directly descended from the Brnjica Culture didn't have any influence there. There were other people there who came from the north, mainly bearers of the Channeled Ware of the Belegish II - Gava Culture that fused with migrants from the Pshenicevo group coming from the territory of Bulgaria. These were the real Dardanians.Later on the Glasinac Culture would expand towards Kosovo further shaping the identity of the Dardanians. The mention of Dardanians and Mysians in Anatolia goes hand in hand with the bearers of the Channeled or the Knobbed Ware whose material elements were found in the layers of Troya and not only, but in Greece as well. These Channeled Ware migrants probably brought various E-CTS9320 lineages with them, and CTS9320 without doubts is very diverse among the Albanians. That's why I associate the Albanians as directly descended from the Dardanians. Who knows, it could be that the Carpathian and the Beskid mountains that were the place from where these Gava people expanded are really Albanoid toponyms with reason!

 

[Johane Derite]

"We have to reckon with a distinct, non-Albanian population occupying the lowland plains of the Albanian Adriatic coast."Martin Huld

 

[broder]

I would agree that V13 definitely has more structure and is a lot more divers among us than other linages, so wouldn’t be surprised if they carried the Albanoid language. However, questions remains how they acquired it and from what group. If we assume that Albanian belongs to the older group of paleo Balkan languages, and has no relation to Illyrian, Albanian should have been in the region at least since Bronze Age. When Greek, Armenian etc dispersed. Greek was most definitely brought by Z2103 considering that Mycenaean sample.

Gava are too late for my liking, at least linguistically speaking.

 

[Hawk]

I would agree that V13 definitely has more structure and is a lot more divers among us than other linages, so wouldn’t be surprised if they carried the Albanoid language. However, questions remains how they acquired it and from what group. If we assume that Albanian belongs to the older group of paleo Balkan languages, and has no relation to Illyrian, Albanian should have been in the region at least since Bronze Age. When Greek, Armenian etc dispersed. Greek was most definitely brought by Z2103 considering that Mycenaean sample.

Gava are too late for my liking, at least linguistically speaking.

In my book, so far, only R1b-Z2103 should be associated with Proto Indo-Europeans, the initial ones. Then after 3rd millennium B.C a lot of lineages might have been incorporated like R1b other clades initially, R1a, I2a2-M223 then just or right after 2nd millenium B.C J2b2-L283, E-V13, some G2a, I2a, I1, J2a.

I know a lot of people will say R1a, but i rather think either R1b-Z2103 or even R1b-PF7562 originally. I cannot say much without having a phylogenetic tree of Albanian in relation to Greek, Armenian, Phrygian, Messapian, so called Balkan IE.

But, i keep hearing none of Yamnaya lineages left any living IE language, i need actual proofs for that, because at least Greek, Armenian should be associated with Yamnaya.

But if Albanian is not Yamnaya, then either some CWC contact in Carpathian Mountains like Riverman proposed for E-V13.

 

[Johane Derite]

I remember someone commenting somewhere that there was a rumour of a R1b-Pf7562 Mycenean sample, don't know if there is any truth to this

 

[Johane Derite]

In Alexander the Great's speech at Opis, he mentions conflicts with the Illyrians, Triballians, and Thracians.


Whoever the proto-Albanians were, we know for sure that they had contacts with Macedonians and would have had contacts with the armies of Philip and Alexander.


"He found you wandering about without resources, many of you clothed in sheepskins and pasturing small flocks in the mountains, defending them with difficulty against the Illyrians, Triballians and neighboring Thracians.


He gave you cloaks to wear instead of sheepskins, brought you down from the mountains to the plains, and made you a match in war for the neighboring barbarians, owing your safety to your own bravery and no longer to reliance on your mountain strongholds. He made you city dwellers and civilized you with good laws and customs.


Those barbarians who used to harrass you and plunder your property, he made you their leaders instead of their slaves and subjects. He annexed much of Thrace to Macedonia, seized the most favorable coastal towns and opened up the country to commerce, and enabled you to exploit your mines undisturbed."

 

[Archetype0ne]

snip

Really interesting thanks for sharing.
I would add though that the influence of Macedon extended all the way to modern Mat, hence those borrowings could have also happened in a different location.

snip

Regarding Troy Dardanians, I think we might find out really soon. Supposedly Troyan samples are on the way.

---

On another note. While all these talks about cultures are really enlightening. I do think we need more caution connecting dots without enough data. The good news a lot of new studies are loading and everything will become more clear. Really hope V13 gets a year similar to 2021 for L283. While most of the theories thrown around are plausible, I would like to know beyond doubt and based on data.

 

[ihype02]

I remember someone commenting somewhere that there was a rumour of a R1b-Pf7562 Mycenean sample, don't know if there is any truth to this

Davidski confirmed it, but it's not R1b-z2103. There is also a screenshot from a video of a study that was supposed to be out within 3 years in 2019. There is a R1b in there not sure if it is related with the one Davidski saw.

 

[Hawk]

Davidski confirmed it, but it's not R1b-z2103. There is also a screenshot from a video of a study that was supposed to be out within 3 years in 2019. There is a R1b in there not sure if it is related with the one Davidski saw.

The one from screenshot was R1b-L51 Classical Greeks, the one that Davidski mentioned is from Mycenean times.