Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Hawk]

Another interesting thing to note is that according to Hammond Bardyllis belonged to Peresadyes tribe:

"The Peresadyes, then, were the rulers of Trebenishte, and Hecataeus wrote of them when they were at the height of their power. It is likely, as we have, seen, that they came from the north; they may have been Dardanii, forerunners of the fourth-century dynasty of Bardylis, and they had contact with the Thracians,..."

It looks like either Peresadyes were ruling over Enchelei/Taulanti or belonged to Trebeniste Culture. As far as Enchelei are considered, although they were considered Illyrian, material culture doesn't indicate like it, especially not burial rite, and the burials with golden masks ( similarity with Agamemnon golden mask, and Odrysian golden mask of King Teres).

On this occasion, special attention is given to the Tomb of the Warriors (Tomb 1) in which 6 warriors were buried together with their complete military armor. The tomb (dimensions: 5.50 x 4.50 m) was built with a row of larger limestone blocks, and after the cremation burial it was filled with amorphous stones and earth, shaping a low mound-like structure. The pyre was set in the central part of the tomb, and around it, embedded and arranged in a specially brought lake sand, were the military attributes: 6 bronze helmets, 11 greaves, and 15 iron spears, with features suggesting some military subordination or simply warriors who have died in a battle being “the Leader and his comrades.”

https://pebasite.wordpress.com/peba-2020/representations-of-power-an-ancient-macedonian-elite/

So, they used this variation of cremation on a pyre on top of a tumuli, Dacians used this burial rite as well. In Homer's Iliad Achaeans wrongly assumed by Homer used this burial rite when in reality it was completely different, but during Homer's time this burial rite was common among Iron Age Greeks.

Now what about the name Peresadyes? This name is very similar to one of the Spartokid rulers descended from Odrysians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paerisades_I

A lot of historians believe Spartakos was an Odrysian who usurped the Black Sea kingdom from the Greeks. We even have an Odrysian prince named Berisades: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berisades

So, it could be that Peresadyes/Berisades was a name used by Gava/Channeled-Ware people and funny enough modern Albanian tribe Berisha spelled correctly as Berissa whose closest subclade can be found in Bulgaria/Plovdiv.

In the end, who were the Encheleians? A Brnjica group with Gava/Channeled-Ware influence/rulers, and latter during classical time Illyrian influence on the west and Thracian influence on the East?

All of these people and cultures interaction happened during Late Bronze Age to Classical times in Central Balkans, the presumed origin of Proto-Albanoid.

 

[Johane Derite]

This is the archeological part of the story. Which historical people should be associated with Brnjica descendants? Paeonians, Albanoids? I don't know.

In the regions of the roman Dardanian borders we have at least these 4 different archaeological cultures as possible contenders for being the source of the Dardani:


1. Brnjica Culture (middle bronze age to late bronze age)
2. Channeled Ware (late bronze age to Iron age)
3. Low mounds/dented ware (starting 700s BC)
4. Glasinac-Mati-Drini complex (which was present at least in western Kosova regions.)




This scheme of Brnjica being discontinous with Chanelled ware comes form Lazic. I take Lazic with a grain of salt, as he argues that Dardani came from Anatolia to Kosova and not the other way around (based on two quotes from antiquity), and he uses the third low mound/dented ware culture which seems to have origins from lower danube/eastern balkans to argue that (which doesn't make sense).


It is quite obvious that Dardani must have migrated to anatolia with Mysians and Phrygians.

But can we then use these to try tease out different linguistic stratums in Dardania?


The Glasinac-Mati-Drini Complex is obviously responsible for the Illyrian linguistic anthroponyms and toponyms in Kosova. This is the clearest cut case.


The low mounds/dented ware culture has finds in it with parallels in Bassarabi and so-called "Thraco-Cimmerian" finds and is said to have close relations to lower danube / thrace.


The options are that either the chanelled ware or the low mound/dented ware people must have contributed the Thracian toponymy and anthroponymy we see in Eastern Kosova, and the other possibly contributed a language that was neither Thracian nor Illyrian, or they were both Thracian-like but separated dialects by ~500 years.

If there was survival of some Brnjica linguistic stratum even post-channeled ware migration then that would be another possible linguistic stratum in Dardanian territories as a possible candidate for the "Dardanian language".


So from these four archaeological cultures these might be some linguistic spectrums:


1. Brnjica Culture (Some Paeonian-like related language?)
2. Channeled Ware (Possibly Thracian-like language?)
3. Low mounds/dented ware (Possibly Thracian-like language?)
4. Glasinac-Mati-Drini complex (Illyrian)




Some quotes from the paper:


It has long been suggested that the Brnjica culture people formed the ethnic substratum of the Dardani. The dating of the Brnjica culture to Br C/D–Ha A2 or between 1300 and 1000 BC is almost generally believed to be correct. The fact, however, that the pottery recovered from Brnjica burials bears no channelled decoration, which firstrst appears in the central Balkans in Ha A1 and continues even later, is central for establishing an ac-curate date of its disappearance, because it clearly shows that the Brnjica culture came to an end before the first appearance of the channelled ware in the area or, more precisely, that Br D/Ha A1 (13th c. BC) is its
terminus ante quem.


Given that the Brnjica pottery is undecorated and uniform in shape (fig. 1), we are left with jewellery and other bronze artefacts to date the beginning of the culture. The most important in that sense are the artefacts from Brnjica necropolises and on the necropolises with inhumation burials at Iglarevo and LatinskoGroblje (Latin Cemetery) which are precisely dated to the Middle Bronze Age or Br B1–Br C (17th –14thc.BC), suggesting the existence of the Brnjica culture from the end of the Early and during the Middle Bronze Age.IIIThe evolution of the Brnjica, Paraćin and Gamzigrad cultures was disrupted in the 12th century BC(Ha A1).


Namely, it is then that previously unknown types of pottery (amphorae with channelled necks, bowls with inverted, channelled or facetted rims, cups with channelled bellies) become predominant in their areas, which is a reliable indicator of major ethnocultural change (Map 1). The change is recognizable in the pottery of Phase II of the Mediana cultural group (figs. 2 and 3), where new channelled shapes predominate. It seems certain, therefore, that the Middle Bronze Age populations of the central Balkans could not have been a pre-dominant or a significant component of the ethnic substratum of the Dardani.


IV


The central Balkan “dark ages” began after the Aegean migration and lasted for several centuries. It is only from the beginning of the Early Iron Age (Ha B3 or 8th c. BC) that first signs of the upcoming ethnocultural mergings become recognizable in the material and spiritual culture of Balkan populations. In Kosovo, south Metohija, the south Morava valley and the upper Vardar valley, there began to grow numerous settlements inwhich pottery decorated with a dented tool was produced (Map 2; figs. 4–7). In Kosovo-Metohija, to the settlements and hoards of the 8th –7th century BC correspond the contemporaneous necropolises at Široko (near Suva Reka), Vlaštica and Karagač, where there are cremation burials under low mounds, a newly-introduced burial rite in the areas. Discussion about the origin of the pottery and bronze artefacts of the 8th –6th centuries BC from thesettlements in Kosovo-Metohija, the south Morava valley and the upper Vardar valley ended long ago with theconclusion linking the decoration and shapes of these finds with the lower Danube and eastern Balkan areas.


Thus, the archaeological finds dated to the 8th–6th centuries BC clearly show the appearance in the future Dardanian area of a people closely related to the inhabitants of Thrace and the lower Danube Basin.


According to the historical sources, these were Dardani, whom Greeks first encountered in 344 or 343 BC, during Philip II’s (359–336) campaign against the neighbours encroaching on Macedonia’s northern borders. It seems clear, therefore, that the earlier assumptions about their central-Balkan origin and appearance in the 2nd millennium BC should be dismissed as unfounded.

Link to Lazic "Who were the Dardani":


https://www.academia.edu/4104746/КО_СУ_БИЛИ_ДАРДАНЦИ_Who_Were_the_Dardani

 

[Hawk]

I assume Peresadyes/Berisades was a personal name used by the Gava/Channeled-Ware people, previously they were wrongly assumed to be Illyrian.

 

[Johane Derite]

Matzinger doesn't include "Dardanus" among possible Illyrian names as he seems to see a possible correlate in the Macedonian royal "Derdas".

Interestingly, in Livy's history of rome we see that one of the chief magistrates of the Epirotes held the name "Dardas".

So there seems to be some sort of possible Dardani contact or component in the Epirotes and Macedonians

 

[Hawk]

 

[Johane Derite]

Of the 69 placenames recorded within the Dardania region by Procopius (not including Naissus region):


7 are Illyrian
36 are Thracian
2 are Celtic
4 are Greek
17 are Latin


Some Thracian examples are "Dardapara", "Besiana", etc.

 

[Riverman]

Of the 69 placenames recorded within the Dardania region by Procopius (not including Naissus region):


7 are Illyrian
36 are Thracian
2 are Celtic
4 are Greek
17 are Latin


Some Thracian examples are "Dardapara", "Besiana", etc.

That's valuable information indeed. Kind of backs up a strong Thracian influence on them and Supports the idea that they might have carried a lot of E-V13.

 

[Johane Derite]

The peculiar "Knobbed Ware" or "Buckelkeramik" that appears in Troy in the late bronze age is long thought to have come with Balkan migrants.


Were those Balkan migrants that brought the Knobbed Ware the same that brought the names of the "Mysians" and "Dardanoi" to Troy?



"It seems likely that here is one of the rare cases where the incursion of a new population element into the citadel at Troy (or anywhere else) can be demonstrated on the basis of a marked change in material culture."

 

[Riverman]

The Knobbed Ware is largely Gava derived, came with Channelled Ware people. Basically it came from the Upper Tisza, moved through Moldova, into the Lower Danube area of Bulgaria and from there to Asia minor.
The Thyni and Bithyni were Thracians and Phrygians related people.

 

[Hawk]

I wonder if Gava was derived from Otomani-Füzesabony, the Knobbed Ware pottery looks similar to Otomani-Füzesabony ceramic from Beskidy mountains.

Otomani-Füzesabony had the finest metal workers in Europe during Early Bronze Age, it's rose to prominence was halted down by Hugelgraberkultur nomadic warriors crossing the Alps and attacking Carpathian basin cultures initially but then during Late Bronze Age they must have gotten the upper hand.

 

[Riverman]

I wonder if Gava was derived from Otomani-Füzesabony, the Knobbed Ware pottery looks similar to Otomani-Füzesabony ceramic from Beskidy mountains.

I once brought up the different candidate cultures and how they compare with each other, was a nice table. F?zesabony is one of the groups which shared the most with G?va, but also lacked some elements. Among others, they were not cremating. From what I read on the matter, G?va was the result of a complex fusion of local and intrusive elements (including from the North (Lusatian related) and East (Noua = steppe pastoralists) which makes it particularly difficult to trace back one dominant element from one preceding culture. Simple put, a lot of innovative groups got cornered in the Upper Tisza area or expanded into it, and in the end one homogenised horizon emerged = Channelled Ware/G?va. We don't even know how homogeneous they were on a genetic level, like Northern Transcarpathian vs. Eastern Holigrady vs. Upper Tisza G?va core vs. Lower Danube Fluted Ware vs. Knobbed Ware vs. Belegis II-G?va etc. Very hard to tell at this point because the story doesn'T end there.

In any case, from the ceramics and cultural perspective, the case is absolutely clear and we see pottery of this kind in neighbouring cultures, among which F?zesabony is one of the first and more important ones. Both the sample from Kyjatice and G?va are more WHG and Southern than the F?zesabony sample, but they are cultural outlier, special burials, hard to tell how representative they are.
It would make sense however if we consider that F?zesabony like groups mixed already in Piliny and later Kyjatice too with those other grousp I talked about, of which some were way more Neolithic-WHG.

 

[enter_tain]

I love how this thread has just descended into random conspiracy theories with 0 factual backing.

You historical geniuses are aware that the Dardanians were called Illyrians by Greeks and were in constant alliances with other Illyrian tribes from Albania/Bosnia against Macedonians/Epirotes? Illyrian alliances like Dardani, Autaritae, and Taulanti happened all the time, and Greeks grouped them together.

 

[torzio]

I love how this thread has just descended into random conspiracy theories with 0 factual backing.

You historical geniuses are aware that the Dardanians were called Illyrians by Greeks and were in constant alliances with other Illyrian tribes from Albania/Bosnia against Macedonians/Epirotes? Illyrian alliances like Dardani, Autaritae, and Taulanti happened all the time, and Greeks grouped them together.

as you say

The Greeks called everyone that was north of them, Illyrian ............it was a term meaning barbarian for the Greeks ................clearly the Greeks where 100% in error

They even said that the failed invasion Greece was of the Illyrians , when we know it was the failed Celtic invasion of Greece........which led to the remnants of this celtic army ( scordisci ) settling eventually in Dardanian lands

 

[Hawk]

Desperate ad-hominems. This thread is for bringing all perspectives and so far i don't see anything faulty on Derites sources, in fact they were looong time known in European archeology. That's a fact.

I have the feeling, that's all you can offer, that's the limit of your mental capacity. First just screaming how Matzinger is a hoax/liar then accusing us of conspiracy theory.

 

[Riverman]

I love how this thread has just descended into random conspiracy theories with 0 factual backing.

You historical geniuses are aware that the Dardanians were called Illyrians by Greeks and were in constant alliances with other Illyrian tribes from Albania/Bosnia against Macedonians/Epirotes? Illyrian alliances like Dardani, Autaritae, and Taulanti happened all the time, and Greeks grouped them together.

I wasn't suggesting that they have to be Thracians, but its known from archaeology that especially their Eastern territories had Channelled Ware/Daco-Thracian substrate populations. If this substrate population would have given them Thracian place names, it would just make sense. That doens't make the Dardanians non-Illyrians. They are the mirror image of the Triballi, which were Daco-Thracians with Illyrian and Celtic admixture. Just like them, the Dardanians were most likely Illyrians, but with a significant Thracian substrate. This would explain an Illyrian speaking population with a lot of Thracian genetic, including patrilineages possibly, influences.

 

[Hawk]

I wasn't suggesting that they have to be Thracians, but its known from archaeology that especially their Eastern territories had Channelled Ware/Daco-Thracian substrate populations. If this substrate population would have given them Thracian place names, it would just make sense. That doens't make the Dardanians non-Illyrians. They are the mirror image of the Triballi, which were Daco-Thracians with Illyrian and Celtic admixture. Just like them, the Dardanians were most likely Illyrians, but with a significant Thracian substrate. This would explain an Illyrian speaking population with a lot of Thracian genetic, including patrilineages possibly, influences.

Glasinac-Mat was present only in Western part of Kosovo, Central-Eastern part and whole ancient Dardania was more of other elements.

Why don't we try to break this loop-thought of Daco-Thracians and Illyrians. Gava/Channeled-Ware and Danubian Urnfield migration brought more people into inner Balkans, distantly related with different substrate yes.

The Dardani were already mentioned in Late Bronze Age in Western Anatolia ( and logic dictates that either they were Brnjica or Channeled-Ware related.) long time before Thracians and Illyrians were mentioned but then again those terms were just a classical age wrap ups of similar/related tribes and it is expected ancient Greeks to be confused on many stuffs.

 

[enter_tain]

Desperate ad-hominems. This thread is for bringing all perspectives and so far i don't see anything faulty on Derites sources, in fact they were looong time known in European archeology. That's a fact.

I have the feeling, that's all you can offer, that's the limit of your mental capacity. First just screaming how Matzinger is a hoax/liar then accusing us of conspiracy theory.

My mental capacity is big enough to quote every single Greek/Byzantine historian that says the Albanoi and Dardanians were Illyrian tribes. Were they all making stuff up?

Your mental capacity is not big enough to mask your desperate attempt to seek some form of identity with your EV-13 lineages, because all Illyrian samples have been J2b2 so far. So you cling to some nonsense theories and attack people who quote reality (DNA + historians of that time).

The original proto-Illyrian speakers were J2b2. Deal with it. EV-13 and RZ2103 were just "Greek-like" lineages that were remnants of early Bronze Age Balkans and expanded through genetic bottlenecks. None of Matzinger's or your attempts to delegitimize recorded history with your own "alternate version" is going to change that.

 

[Riverman]

For R-Z2103 its not solved yet whether it was primarily Greco-Armenian in the Balkans or had different associations too, but E-V13 being clearly connected to Daco-Thracians.
Most likely since Gava, but for sure since Psenichevo-Basarabi.
Proto-Albanians came up by a fusion of Illyrian and Daco-Thracians. The question is whether it was an early one, like in Dardanians, ir the result of later movements in Antiquity.
To solve that you need to find ancient DNA from the pre-Slavic Proto-Albanians and their predecessors from the Iron Age.

 

[Hawk]

My mental capacity is big enough to quote every single Greek/Byzantine historian that says the Albanoi and Dardanians were Illyrian tribes. Were they all making stuff up?

Your mental capacity is not big enough to mask your desperate attempt to seek some form of identity with your EV-13 lineages, because all Illyrian samples have been J2b2 so far. So you cling to some nonsense theories and attack people who quote reality (DNA + historians of that time).

The original proto-Illyrian speakers were J2b2. Deal with it. EV-13 and RZ2103 were just "Greek-like" lineages that were remnants of early Bronze Age Balkans and expanded through genetic bottlenecks. None of Matzinger's or your attempts to delegitimize recorded history with your own "alternate version" is going to change that.

We already know the Greek/Byzantine writers. The very same ancient Greek writers who thought Etruscans came from Western Anatolia descending from Lydians led by their prince Tyrrhenos and various superstisious/faulty and wrong interpretations, anyway, they have their own merit/credit, but living 2500 years ago you were more prone to subjectivity/superstitions.

For your information no one is denying any connection of J2b2-L283 with Proto-Illyrians, on contrary, everyone is reiterating the connection (though there are people who think Illyrians were not uniform people, let's wait for Illyrii proprii dictii samples, although i wouldn't be surpised the pattern to repeat itself with J2b2-L283 appearing again), and it's not that Illyrians were an ancient civilization to be obsessed with in any way. They achieved nothing of value. It's just that a model was proposed by a renowned linguist like Matzinger based on his decade research, and we play with the options we have in hand. Because, proofs lead us to Proto-Albanoids living in Central Balkans and either E-V13 or R1b-Z2105 being the primary marker. I see you, jumping from time to time with such an uneasy when we mention this facts. It's like we are hitting your ego.

And, E-V13 is totally lacking in Early Bronze Age context, even on Early Bronze Age Bulgaria where supposedly was quite in huge numbers during ancient times. So, logic so far dictates us it came during Late Bronze Age, various subclades with various Danubian Urnfield cultures and Dardanians unlike Glasinac Illyrians had quite an influence from Danubian Urnfielders based on material culture. This is a fact.

 

[Johane Derite]

The peculiar "Knobbed Ware" or "Buckelkeramik" that appears in Troy in the late bronze age is long thought to have come with Balkan migrants.


Were those Balkan migrants that brought the Knobbed Ware the same that brought the names of the "Mysians" and "Dardanoi" to Troy?



"It seems likely that here is one of the rare cases where the incursion of a new population element into the citadel at Troy (or anywhere else) can be demonstrated on the basis of a marked change in material culture."

While the consensus is pretty clear that these extreme knobs that portrude in Troy came from the Babadag/Pshenicevo regions which seem to have been connected, we can see that even in Vatin culture there were some little variations of these "knobs". These also show up in Paracin II (which also have the spirals and are quite large) and also in Brnjica, but in Brnjica they are smaller, Paracin II seems to be closer to the Babadag and Pshenicevo Troy ones: