Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[PaleoRevenge]

Funny that you mention possible "back" migrations, I actually also have roots in Kotorr on the maternal side of my paternal grandfathers side which have been brutally expelled by the Serbs who got that land thanks to the West and the Ottomans. The architecture of the buildings there is so similar to how our ancestors from where I come from used to build our houses and many still do. I totally agree with you on the extension hypotheses too. Also, notice how a more North Western origin is also part of the Hoti origin folklore who are J2b-L283.

J2B reminds me of this quote describing Albanians in the early 1300s.

There are two Albanias, one in Asia near India of which we are not speaking here, and the other in Europe which is part of the Byzantine Empire and of which we are speaking here. It contains two provinces: Clisara (Këlcyra) and Tumurist (7). In addition to these two provinces, it has other provinces next to it: Cumania (8), Stophanatum (9), Polatum (Pult) and Debre (Dibra) which are provinces tributary to the Albanians and more or less subjected to them, for they are active in farming, tend their vineyards and take care of the necessities of life at home. The inhabitants of these provinces do not move from place to place as the aformentioned Albanians do, but live rather in solid mansions and towns

Pulat was a remant of the Komani culture. The Hoti migration might be more of a primordial memory than an actual event of the 1400-1500s. Johan posted material that came to the conclusion, that the Komani were Latin Illyrian migrants from Montenegro and Herzegovina, fleeing the Slavs in the 6th-7th century. This old memory of the migration from the north probably got mixed in with the story about the movements that occurred during the Ottoman turmoil.
There are some EV-13 tribes in Montenegro that are related to Albanians, but they seem to be nomadic medieval Albanians that got trapped/enveloped when Slavs took refuge in the mountains after the Turks took over the low lands. These movements and story's got merged with the older migration story.

Unless one more migration wave of J2b did actually occur in the 1400-1500s, that would be interesting if it did happen.

 

[Excine]

The crazy thing about the Illyrian diehards, they have been reduced to making an argument that pretty much comes down to this; "yes Albanians are not related to 95% of Illyrians, but they could be related to the remaining 5% that has not been tested." LMAO

In terms of Albanian's linguistic origins, one cannot assert with confidence that "Thracian" or "Dacian" are more plausible than Illyric. Hopefully, further linguistic research will be conducted in the future, as well as genetic studies. Perhaps we will be one straw closer to finding more evidence.

 

[blevins13]

You are witnessing your own stupidity. The Albanian language was split into Geg/Tosk before the Slavic migrations, while the Bessi lived in Bulgaria deep into the Slavic migrations. Not to mention the Bessi were very Hellenized, and the Albanian language is not so.

The Albanians are the descendants of the Albanoi in northern Albania. There's not much more to it. It also explains why the northern Geg dialect is more conservative and closer to Proto-Albanian, while the Tosk dialect is more divergent.

Albanoi territory is in central Albania, between Mat and Shkumbin not very isolated after all. For this reason, if Albanian language really came from them, would be probably more similar to Tosk than Geg.
In this scenario considering Avaric and Slavic movements, Gegs probably were located in north of Drin river moved south, pushing Albanoi south of Shkumbin.

The spilt Tosk and Geg provides some support for this scenario.


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[Illyria]

If these J2b2 were Latin speakers, why weren't they absorbed by Slavs like the E-V13 Latin speakers (Vlachs)? Surely if they were Latin speaking, we'd see plenty of J2b2 in Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, but we don't! Lots of E-V13 though, they must have only been assimilating Latin speaking Thracians, lol.

Funny how E-V13 maxis wanna reach for the stars to say E-V13 is the Proto-Albanoid haplogroup, when it's widespread all over the Balkans and Italy, while J2b2 is rare everywhere, spiking only in the mountains of Northern Albania, lol.

Hmm.. which one seems more likely the Latin speaking haplogroup, and the Albanoid haplogroup? The J2b2 that didn't get assimilated everywhere, or the E-V13 that did?

Seems to me like by the time of Slavic migrations, J2b2 was sparsely populated in the mountains of the West Balkans, the remainder non-Latinized, unwilling to assimilate, the remaining survivors fled to Northern Albania. It seems like E-V13 became Roman elite in the Central/East Balkans, under the Latin rite, and with the Slavic migrations, some assimilated under Slavs, and some fled to Albania to re-group with other Paleo-Balkan people to create the Albanian ethnos. A mixture of non-Latin speakers, and Latin speakers, to create the partially Latinized Albanian language.

Also, Vlachs are rarely ever J2b2, if J2b2 was Latin speaking, where are all the J2b2 Vlachs in Albania?

Or maybe, since E-V13 was in Albania way before Romans, these E-V13 in Albania became Illyrian over time due to Illyrian rule in the Iron Age. There is record of Thracian slaves in Dardania, and record of Illyrian and Dardanian tribes being allied several times and having close relations. Some Illyrians under Queen Teuta left the Ardiaei and joined the Dardani, so there was definitely kinship between J2b2 and E-V13 in ancient times. Even the tribes in the Nish-Sharr-Shtip area, mingled with Illyrians, such as Paeonians, Triballi to an extent, but that's ignored too, Illyrians were apparently only in the West Balkans, even though Dardania and Paeonia became Illyrian at one point in time lol.

 

[Hawk]

There was no record of Thracian slaves in Dardania. Those slaves bore Central Dalmatian names anyway.

I would rather focus on your own kind whom most of Dalmatians ended up with terrible destiny and enslaved by Romans in South Italian mines, devastating the Dalmatian region hence why we have so few J2b2 there.

 

[mount123]

If these J2b2 were Latin speakers, why weren't they absorbed by Slavs like the E-V13 Latin speakers (Vlachs)? Surely if they were Latin speaking, we'd see plenty of J2b2 in Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, but we don't! Lots of E-V13 though, they must have only been assimilating Latin speaking Thracians, lol.

Funny how E-V13 maxis wanna reach for the stars to say E-V13 is the Proto-Albanoid haplogroup, when it's widespread all over the Balkans and Italy, while J2b2 is rare everywhere, spiking only in the mountains of Northern Albania, lol.

Hmm.. which one seems more likely the Latin speaking haplogroup, and the Albanoid haplogroup? The J2b2 that didn't get assimilated everywhere, or the E-V13 that did?

Seems to me like by the time of Slavic migrations, J2b2 was sparsely populated in the mountains of the West Balkans, the remainder non-Latinized, unwilling to assimilate, the remaining survivors fled to Northern Albania. It seems like E-V13 became Roman elite in the Central/East Balkans, under the Latin rite, and with the Slavic migrations, some assimilated under Slavs, and some fled to Albania to re-group with other Paleo-Balkan people to create the Albanian ethnos. A mixture of non-Latin speakers, and Latin speakers, to create the partially Latinized Albanian language.

Also, Vlachs are rarely ever J2b2, if J2b2 was Latin speaking, where are all the J2b2 Vlachs in Albania?

Or maybe, since E-V13 was in Albania way before Romans, these E-V13 in Albania became Illyrian over time due to Illyrian rule in the Iron Age. There is record of Thracian slaves in Dardania, and record of Illyrian and Dardanian tribes being allied several times and having close relations. Some Illyrians under Queen Teuta left the Ardiaei and joined the Dardani, so there was definitely kinship between J2b2 and E-V13 in ancient times. Even the tribes in the Nish-Sharr-Shtip area, mingled with Illyrians, such as Paeonians, Triballi to an extent, but that's ignored too, Illyrians were apparently only in the West Balkans, even though Dardania and Paeonia became Illyrian at one point in time lol.

Non sense you are making wishful pseudo scientific connections because they are "Albanian"-fitting. Proto-Vlachs were a latinized East Balkan group of people why would they carry J2b-L283 in the first place? As for modern Vlachs, they are pretty much diverse and an inter-Slavic population autosomally some (Aromanians expecially) score a little bit more Paleo-Balkan than Bulgarians. Only significant J2b-L283 in Vlachs is in the Aromanians from Metsovo-Florina North East Greece and most of them are below Z631 some of them share a subclade with the Korbi clan others are in an isolated branch. In one of Hunter Provyn's posts he actually talked about one greek Aromanian whose latin derived family name and origin story is tied to Roman legionaries and indeed his subclade diversification would fit this story. I mean we already have leaked evidence of possibly Dalmatian J2b-L283>Z631 samples present in non Illyrian areas like Moesia (Timacum Minus) who were miners.

 

[mount123]

The crazy thing about the Illyrian diehards, they have been reduced to making an argument that pretty much comes down to this; "yes Albanians are not related to 95% of Illyrians, but they could be related to the remaining 5% that has not been tested." LMAO

You sum it up very well.

 

[Hawk]

Non sense you are making wishful pseudo scientific connections because they are "Albanian"-fitting. Proto-Vlachs were a latinized East Balkan group of people why would they carry J2b-L283 in the first place? As for modern Vlachs, they are pretty much diverse and an inter-Slavic population autosomally some (Aromanians expecially) score a little bit more Paleo-Balkan than Bulgarians. Only significant J2b-L283 in Vlachs is in the Aromanians from Metsovo-Florina North East Greece and most of them are below Z631 some of them share a subclade with the Korbi clan others are in an isolated branch. In one of Hunter Provyn's posts he actually talked about one greek Aromanian whose latin derived family name and origin story is tied to Roman legionaries and indeed his subclade diversification would fit this story. I mean we already have leaked evidence of possibly Dalmatian J2b-L283>Z631 samples present in non Illyrian areas like Moesia (Timacum Minus) who were miners.

We have seen grave classifications, those were either Dardanian or Numeri Dalmatorum, Serbian archaologists studying Timacum Minus are unsure between Dardanian and Dalmatian, the timeline of their grave fit both scenarios.

 

[mount123]

We have seen grave classifications, those were either Dardanian or Numeri Dalmatorum, Serbian archaologists studying Timacum Minus are unsure between Dardanian and Dalmatian, the timeline of their grave fit both scenarios.

Thanks! That is what I was referring to. The numeri Dalmatorum seems more likely to me, also given that there was a bigger proxy of most probably local Moesian miners. Dardania being not far away, and actually being integrated into Moesia Superior, I would assume most of it would be more Moesian-like, so most probably E1b-V13 heavy.

 

[Hawk]

Thanks! That is what I was referring to. The numeri Dalmatorum seems more likely to me, also given that there was a bigger proxy of most probably local Moesian miners. Dardania being not far away, and actually being integrated into Moesia Superior, I would assume most of it would be more Moesian-like, so most probably E1b-V13 heavy.

The two J2b2-L283 and one E-V13 were warriors/soldiers of Roman army and not miners (they had swords, knives in their gravesides and had injuries/blows in their head, arms), also the three of them were not locals of Timacum Minus.

Perhaps the three of them were Dardanian, or the J2b2-L283 ones were Numeri Dalmatorum and the E-V13 was Dardanian, or 1 J2b2 was Dalmatian, 1 Dardanian, we simply have these options in the table, no further information to scope it further.

 

[enter_tain]

The crazy thing about the Illyrian diehards, they have been reduced to making an argument that pretty much comes down to this; "yes Albanians are not related to 95% of Illyrians, but they could be related to the remaining 5% that has not been tested." LMAO

Imagine this dude telling me I'm not Illyrian, when my Z638 clade was literally the southernmost tested amongst the Illyrian samples.

"Illyrians" was a term used by Greeks to refer to southern Illyrians. Only during Roman times was it expanded to northern areas. You're crying that the area that precisely the term "Illyrians" was used for, is not tested.

But Alexander the Great's half-Illyrian sister that came 20 km across the pond was actually "Spanish-like" in DNA. Pyrrhus that migrated 10 miles north and was raised in Illyria was also raised by "Spanish-like people". Keep spouting idiocies.

Yeah, yeah. Your self-serving bias.

Do you know what "majority" means? Your desperate attempt to make EV-13 some major lineage is pathetic.

 

[mount123]

The two J2b2-L283 and one E-V13 were warriors/soldiers of Roman army and not miners (they had swords, knives in their gravesides and had injuries/blows in their head, arms), also the three of them were not locals of Timacum Minus.

Perhaps the three of them were Dardanian, or the J2b2-L283 ones were Numeri Dalmatorum and the E-V13 was Dardanian, or 1 J2b2 was Dalmatian, 1 Dardanian, we simply have these options in the table, no further information to scope it further.

Had no idea these were soldiers, thanks for the info.

 

[torzio]

Imagine this dude telling me I'm not Illyrian, when my Z638 clade was literally the southernmost tested amongst the Illyrian samples.
"Illyrians" was a term used by Greeks to refer to southern Illyrians. Only during Roman times was it expanded to northern areas. You're crying that the area that precisely the term "Illyrians" was used for, is not tested.

But Alexander the Great's half-Illyrian sister that came 20 km across the pond was actually "Spanish-like" in DNA. Pyrrhus that migrated 10 miles north and was raised in Illyria was also raised by "Spanish-like people". Keep spouting idiocies.

Do you know what "majority" means? Your desperate attempt to make EV-13 some major lineage is pathetic.

IIRC his half sister was Epirote and not Illyrian

But many uneducated link Epirotes as Illyrians

the Enchelae sould be in Budva Montenegro .............the map is at the time after they where pushed out

 

[torzio]

history states that the Enchelae where originally in ancient Budva ( in modern Montenegro ) before moving to western-macedonia

Cadmus of the Greek province of Boeotia together with his wife Harmonia, found refuge with an Illyrian tribe called the Enchelei in Budva ( ancient name was Butua/Buthos.)

 

[Hawk]

history states that the Enchelae where originally in ancient Budva ( in modern Montenegro ) before moving to western-macedonia
Cadmus of the Greek province of Boeotia together with his wife Harmonia, found refuge with an Illyrian tribe called the Enchelei in Budva ( ancient name was Butua/Buthos.)

The case of Enchelei is rather interesting because their burial rite is actually different from Glasinac-Mat where it probably scretched in Budva. So, i don't think they came from Budva at all.

On this occasion, special attention is given to the Tomb of the Warriors (Tomb 1) in which 6 warriors were buried together with their complete military armor. The tomb (dimensions: 5.50 x 4.50 m) was built with a row of larger limestone blocks, and after the cremation burial it was filled with amorphous stones and earth, shaping a low mound-like structure. The pyre was set in the central part of the tomb, and around it, embedded and arranged in a specially brought lake sand, were the military attributes: 6 bronze helmets, 11 greaves, and 15 iron spears, with features suggesting some military subordination or simply warriors who have died in a battle being “the Leader and his comrades.”

https://pebasite.wordpress.com/peba-2020/representations-of-power-an-ancient-macedonian-elite/

The Enchelei were likely some Danubian Urnfielder descendands whose Trebenishte Culture/South-Illyrian contributed into formation of Classical Illyrians, but was not as strong in the identity of Illyrians as Glasinac-Mat.

 

[torzio]

The case of Enchelei is rather interesting because their burial rite is actually different from Glasinac-Mat where it probably scretched in Budva. So, i don't think they came from Budva at all.



The Enchelei were likely some Danubian Urnfielder descendands whose Trebenishte Culture/South-Illyrian contributed into formation of Classical Illyrians, but was not as strong in the identity of Illyrians as Glasinac-Mat.

the link belongs to celtic warriors who where found there

The warrior burials at Lychnidos provide further valuable archaeological evidence of the aforementioned events and indicate a significant Celtic presence in this part of Macedonia during this period. Furthermore, evidence such as the Macedonian shield in burial no. 58 clearly illustrates that these Celtic warriors held high positions in the city from the 3rd c. BC onwards, becoming an intrinsic part of the military and social structure of the Hellenistic city.

So what sequence of events brought such ‘barbarian’ warriors to the Hellenistic city of Lychnidos in the 3rd c. BC ?
All helmet and weapons are celtic found in Lychnidos as pe your link

The initial expansion into the Balkans at the end of the 4th / early 3rd c. BC was marked by a brutal clash between the Celtic and Hellenistic worlds, which resulted in the destruction of successive Macedonian armies, and the execution of the Macedonian king Ptolemy Ceraunos.

Subsequently, the Celts became an intrinsic part of the geo-political balance of power in the region, and we are told that, “The kings of the east then carried on no wars without a mercenary army of Gauls; nor, if they were driven from their thrones, did they seek protection with any other people than the Gauls’’ (Justinus. Epit. Pomp. Trogus XXV, 2). Celtic warriors quickly became a vital component in the armies of rulers and city states from the Adriatic to the Black Sea, from the Danube to North Africa from the late 4th to the 1st c. BC. In Macedonia itself, Celtic warriors formed substantial parts of the armies in the Macedonian Wars of Succession of the 3rd c. BC to fill the political vacuum which they themselves had created.

 

[torzio]

https://www.scribd.com/document/251...of-the-divine-Isis-Celtic-warriors-from-Ohrid


https://vdocuments.net/in-the-shadow-of-the-divine-isis-celtic-warriors-from-ohrid.html?page=1

https://issuu.com/sonjcemarceva/docs/in_the_shadow_of_the_divine_isis_-_

 

[torzio]

https://www.academia.edu/15605475/G...а_божествената_Изида_Келтските_воини_во_Охрид

 

[Hawk]

the link belongs to celtic warriors who where found there
The warrior burials at Lychnidos provide further valuable archaeological evidence of the aforementioned events and indicate a significant Celtic presence in this part of Macedonia during this period. Furthermore, evidence such as the Macedonian shield in burial no. 58 clearly illustrates that these Celtic warriors held high positions in the city from the 3rd c. BC onwards, becoming an intrinsic part of the military and social structure of the Hellenistic city.

So what sequence of events brought such ‘barbarian’ warriors to the Hellenistic city of Lychnidos in the 3rd c. BC ?
All helmet and weapons are celtic found in Lychnidos as pe your link
The initial expansion into the Balkans at the end of the 4th / early 3rd c. BC was marked by a brutal clash between the Celtic and Hellenistic worlds, which resulted in the destruction of successive Macedonian armies, and the execution of the Macedonian king Ptolemy Ceraunos.
Subsequently, the Celts became an intrinsic part of the geo-political balance of power in the region, and we are told that, “The kings of the east then carried on no wars without a mercenary army of Gauls; nor, if they were driven from their thrones, did they seek protection with any other people than the Gauls’’ (Justinus. Epit. Pomp. Trogus XXV, 2). Celtic warriors quickly became a vital component in the armies of rulers and city states from the Adriatic to the Black Sea, from the Danube to North Africa from the late 4th to the 1st c. BC. In Macedonia itself, Celtic warriors formed substantial parts of the armies in the Macedonian Wars of Succession of the 3rd c. BC to fill the political vacuum which they themselves had created.

They are not Celtic at all, the author clearly states they are from Archaic period which means Early to Middle Iron Age, hundred of years before Celtic invasion of Balkans.

 

[torzio]

They are not Celtic at all, the author clearly states they are from Archaic period which means Early to Middle Iron Age, hundred of years before Celtic invasion of Balkans.

all archeology states they are celtic

https://www.academia.edu/15605475/G...а_божествената_Изида_Келтските_воини_во_Охрид