Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Hawk]

In some earlier posts of yours you were shouting E-V13 Illyrians Urnfield etc. I am not trolling I was just writing to "entertain" about the possibility of Illyrians being the reason for the more light phenotype in some Gegs than in Tosks. You then came with your Iranian/Zagros stuff which had nothing to do with Proto-Illyrians whatsoever.

Why don't you take that courage to speak Albanian when your Serbian neighbours in Lugina are around you or are you probably too afraid and talk turkish or smth as most of you turkophone people over there.

In what kind of utopia do you live? Who is afraid of whom lol? I think you are referring to completely the wrong people for this stuff. And, it's past midnight, still running in circles.

 

[mount123]

Use your head. Last time I checked we refer to it as ‘mahrame’ and ‘qefin’ at the same time. Both words obviously entered our language during the ottoman period.

I don’t give a rats ass where Berbers got it.

I mean again anything Balkan does not necessarily have to be Turkish. But yeah my bad there was just this docu in which a Berisha elder from Rugova claimed it to be much older due to their folkloric saga. But it seems to be genuinely Middle Eastern/ North African derived and entered that region via the Ottomans.

 

[Trojet]

I said 7000 years ago, the ancestor of L283 was probably living in Sumerian territories, and this is true.

I guess you mean J2b-M12 mutation, an "ancestor" of L283, ~16000 years ago arose in that region, but we actually don't have any evidence the J2b-L283 branch itself was there 7000 years ago (it split 9700 ybp from the ME/South Asian J-Z2432 branch). Also, the two J2b samples from Neolithic Hajji Firuz (NW Iran) turned out to be under J2b-Z2453.

 

[mount123]

I guess you mean J2b-M12 mutation ~16000 years ago arose in that region, but we actually don't have any evidence the J2b-L283 branch was there 7000 years ago (it split 9700 ybp from the ME/South Asian J-Z2432 branch). Also, the two J2b samples from Neolithic Hajji Firuz (NW Iran) turned out to be under J2b-Z2453.

Thanks for pointing this out.

 

[Johane Derite]

I guess you mean J2b-M12 mutation ~16000 years ago arose in that region, but we actually don't have any evidence the J2b-L283 branch was there 7000 years ago (it split 9700 ybp from the ME/South Asian J-Z2432 branch). Also, the two J2b samples from Neolithic Hajji Firuz (NW Iran) turned out to be under J2b-Z2453.

Yes, it was just based on this, and nothing dogmatic claiming that Sumerians moved to Albania or something

 

[torzio]

Ok then, here are some ancient historians that clearly said Dardani of Balkans and Dardanoi of Troy were related:

https://www.academia.edu/33029236/_Liburni_gens_Asiatica_Anatomy_of_Classical_Stereotype


Therefore, it seems that the comment of Solinus about the Liburni being an ‘Asian tribe’ is not a result of his carelessness, wild imagination or inclination for writing ction. It shows that Solinus was acquainted with textual tradition, which imagined the Liburni as a society dominated by women. Connecting them with Asia Minor and Amazons was just a logical thinking and reasoning with the ava-ilable information and existing ‘knowledge’ that we nd in Servius and Solinus. It is a pity that we cannot know whether the explicit link between the Liburni and the Amazons was an indigenous self-appropriation of the Greek mythologi-cal pseudo-history or an information deriving from outside informants familiar with both the Greek and indigenous tradition and ‘local knowledge’ from the 5th or 4th century BC. The self-appropriation of the Greek mythological discourse might seem to be a legitimate strategy, by which indigenous communities in the eastern Adriatic such as the Hyllaei, used to ‘insert’ themselves within the Greek pseudo-past. Solinus’ remark about the Liburni being an ‘Asian tribe’, does not say much about the relationship between the Adriatic and Asia Minor.

 

[torzio]

https://www.academia.edu/33029236/_Liburni_gens_Asiatica_Anatomy_of_Classical_Stereotype
Therefore, it seems that the comment of Solinus about the Liburni being an ‘Asian tribe’ is not a result of his carelessness, wild imagination or inclination for writing ction. It shows that Solinus was acquainted with textual tradition, which imagined the Liburni as a society dominated by women. Connecting them with Asia Minor and Amazons was just a logical thinking and reasoning with the ava-ilable information and existing ‘knowledge’ that we nd in Servius and Solinus. It is a pity that we cannot know whether the explicit link between the Liburni and the Amazons was an indigenous self-appropriation of the Greek mythologi-cal pseudo-history or an information deriving from outside informants familiar with both the Greek and indigenous tradition and ‘local knowledge’ from the 5th or 4th century BC. The self-appropriation of the Greek mythological discourse might seem to be a legitimate strategy, by which indigenous communities in the eastern Adriatic such as the Hyllaei, used to ‘insert’ themselves within the Greek pseudo-past. Solinus’ remark about the Liburni being an ‘Asian tribe’, does not say much about the relationship between the Adriatic and Asia Minor.

Amazons belong to the Scythians group.......Asia minor on the black sea ...
and NOT a fully all female group as some think

 

[Hawk]

Amazons belong to the Scythians group.......Asia minor on the black sea ...
and NOT a fully all female group as some think

And what does that has to do with Liburni?

Just check their material culture, they were Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age continuation en masse, used the same burial rite with tumuli as other Illyrians and just recently Croatian archeologists discovered cremation graves with urns as well indicating some LBA/EIA Urnfield influence.

 

[Trojet]

Yes, it was just based on this, and nothing dogmatic claiming that Sumerians moved to Albania or something

Yes, that would be correct, the likely origin and expansion of haplogroup J2b-M12 (~15,800 ybp). With regards to the L283 branch, considering it split off 9700 ybp and the rumored J2b from Eneolithic Moldova, it's quite possible it was in Europe or nearby ~7000 ybp, although I don't think we can say for certain which path it took to get there (the above picture is one possibility).

 

[mount123]

I guess you mean J2b-M12 mutation, an "ancestor" of L283, ~16000 years ago arose in that region, but we actually don't have any evidence the J2b-L283 branch itself was there 7000 years ago (it split 9700 ybp from the ME/South Asian J-Z2432 branch). Also, the two J2b samples from Neolithic Hajji Firuz (NW Iran) turned out to be under J2b-Z2453.

He clearly meant and means J2b-L283 and continues to claim this in various foras as I have heard: https://twitter.com/AlbHistory/status/1243889093945294849

 

[Johane Derite]

He clearly meant and means J2b-L283 and continues to claim this in various foras as I have heard: https://twitter.com/AlbHistory/status/1243889093945294849

No I didn't, and you seem to have a problem with reading comprehension... wonder why.

The quote you linked yourself says:


~7,000 years ago, the ancestors of the 3 main Albanian paternal groups had not yet met, they were in 3 different places.

 

[broder]

I mean again anything Balkan does not necessarily have to be Turkish. But yeah my bad there was just this docu in which a Berisha elder from Rugova claimed it to be much older due to their folkloric saga. But it seems to be genuinely Middle Eastern/ North African derived and entered that region via the Ottomans.

There are no Berisha in Rugove to my recollection. Majority are Kelmend that trace their ancestry to Malesi e Madhe, with few families that identify as Shale and some Shkrel. They didn’t bring their Qefin thing from Malesi e Madhe, they adopted it in Rugove after they converted post 16th century.

 

[Excine]

Are you sure @broder?

How can you explain Piperi tribesmen wearing the same garment? Also same w the Shala in Albania? It just seemed widespread in tribes during that era regardless.

 

[broder]

Yes, I am sure. Catholics of Malesi started wearing similar head gear later, 18th century the earliest, and mostly what we call Shalle/Mahrame though. Especially Kelmendi, Shale etc that had intensive interactions with Kosove/Tropoje region.

Rugove’s Qefin is distinct though and it’s only worn there. The rest of Kosove and Malesi wore the Shalle/Maherame thing around the Plis. My grandfather wore such a head gear around the plis, but brown in colour whith black tirqe and xhamadan which was typical for Drenice back then.

 

[broder]

Interestingly, the authentic Albanian folkloric element of the Plis (Pileus/Pilos) hat also supports origin from nomadic shepherds.

This was made from wool felt, so the materials did not need to be imported or have a complex threading process, locally made.

Worn by shepherds and associated with wandering, liberty, in antiquity due it its connection with nomadic shepherds.

We should keep it in mind though that in ancient times a very similar cap was worn under the helmet as a buffer/protection. Classical Greeks definitely wore such a thing, and I know later Romans used it too when they freed slaves that served in their legions.

So back then it symbolized/was associated with military service. Maybe that’s how it stuck with us, considering fighting seems to have been one of the most important trades that our ancestors practised. Like a badge of honour.

 

[Excine]

Broder, and your explanation for Piperi wearing them as well in similar era of the 18th to 17th century? Idk, it all seems a bit too widespread. My great grandfather had a shorter shalle, with a plis, it was more tight and not as loose as you see in other photos. Regardless, it is a pretty cool outfit, and some ethnographers I believe used it to distinguish people ethnically.

 

[Excine]

We should keep it in mind though that in ancient times a very similar cap was worn under the helmet as a buffer/protection. Classical Greeks definitely wore such a thing, and I know later Romans used it too when they freed slaves that served in their legions.

So back then it symbolized/was associated with military service. Maybe that’s how it stuck with us, considering fighting seems to have been one of the most important trades that our ancestors practised. Like a badge of honour.

Tbh, the Plis seems to have gained popularity in the early 20th century as well, its either that or the Ottoman influence was stronger that other clothing was seen more often too, that's what I've noticed.

 

[Excine]

I will send some snips of Andromaqi's book about Albanian clothing before the Ottoman occupation tomorrow.

 

[broder]

Broder, and your explanation for Piperi wearing them as well in similar era of the 18th to 17th century? Idk, it all seems a bit too widespread. My great grandfather had a shorter shalle, with a plis, it was more tight and not as loose as you see in other photos. Regardless, it is a pretty cool outfit, and some ethnographers I believe used it to distinguish people ethnically.

Same thing like Kelmendi. Influence from the neighbouring tribes. In the past they may have had more interactions with Alb tribes considering their origin.

 

[broder]

Tbh, the Plis seems to have gained popularity in the early 20th century as well, its either that or the Ottoman influence was stronger that other clothing was seen more often too, that's what I've noticed.

Maybe it got more widespread but it definitely was in use since the ancients time or otherwise it would have been lost.

Reason I think it may be as a badge of honour is because it’s not practical at all to wear a white hat for shepherds, like Malcom thinks. Material however makes sense. But look at Vlahs for example, who were similar to us in some traditions, almost all groups wore some sort of dark coloured felt hat.