Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Aspurg]

He is obviously posting non sense but still all of J2b-L283 can't be just Komani-Kruja or Dalmatia derived. How does Eastern and Central Kosovo get solid high J2b-L283 rates?

I am not saying it is. Especially regarding the PH1751. There are (Serbian) linguistic opinions claiming shepherd proto-Albanians or proto-Vlachs encountered remnants of Illyrian speaking Dardanians (and assimilated them) in the Early Medieval times. And obviously this could have occurred only in Dardania, not modern Albania..

 

[mount123]

I am not saying it is. Especially regarding the PH1751. There are (Serbian) linguistic opinions claiming shepherd proto-Albanians or proto-Vlachs encountered remnants of Illyrian speaking Dardanians in the Early Medieval times. And obviously this could have occurred only in Dardania, not modern Albania..

Doubt it was only medieval times as autosomal IA Northern Illyrian component would be much higher in modern Albanians. My dad gets 26 something percent North Atlantic on Eurogenes K13. I myself got 25 something percent. We also get less Baltic I have about 15% my dad 14.87% which is also quite interesting since the reference for Ghegs gets at least 17 something % Baltic and higher and not so much North Atlantic. I also get more IA Illyrian components in calculators regarding my autosomal DNA. Reason might be that my fathers line (Krasniqi) often married women from East Kosovo (my mothers paternal line are Korbi from East Kosovo they are J2b-Z631) which as a region also has high Illyrian patrilineage survival. Also my paternal great grandmother was a Kastrati woman so perhaps also a daughter of an Illyrian descendant.

 

[enter_tain]

Proto-Thracians were per Russian archeologists late newcomers into Balkan/Thrace, LBA/EIA. And they were right. Some sort of Proto-Thracians likely existed back then but they were not important. Also V13 is of that age..

Anyway why don't you do something?? You, Bruzmi, Kelmendasi.. Some of these people write things that are known by anybody and receive "thanks" on these fora for debunking nonsensical postulations.. I've noticed that on anthrogenica, someone writes something laughable which everybody knows is not truth, and then somebody "debunks" this and receives "thanks".. 10 year old who read a little bit can debunk that.

Just as you are not hard to debunk. I have around 350 books and articles on Scythians and Sarmatians alone. And 1000 about Paleobalkans. What can you quote?

I've just noticed something interesting about real proto-Albanians, something that provides some exact information about them before even it seems before their first mention in 11st century. And ofc this just reaffirms what most authors were saying about proto-Albanians.

Any idea that proto-Albanians were not pastoral shepherds is a pure phantasy on steroids.. And because of that, for example they couldn't have descended of Komani-Kruja culture automatically. The other reason this culture being Latin/Roman ofc.

When did I say when Proto-Thracians moved into the Balkans? I'm talking about the ancestral components that lived outside of the Balkans (Channelled Ware or whomever).

Again, learn what "Proto" means. If you collect all those books, trying actually reading them.

 

[Hawk]

Serbs as all South Slavs have neglible amounts of J2b-L283 so they are not a good source in determining in what quantity Illyrians were present in Dardania. Also Serbs in Kosovo have mostly roots in Bosnia. Most of E1b-V13 in Serbs has generally been picked up in the Panonnian plain or Moesia rather than the southern Balkans.

Thought Enchelii were part of Illyrii Proprie Dicti​?

I quoted Pasko Kuzman, lead Macedonian archeologist, he described on detail the Enchelei burial in Lake Ohrid, cremation on a pyre on low-mound, despite that various other aspect of this culture called Trebeniste make people wonder about their true ethnic affiliations.

 

[enter_tain]

Any idea that proto-Albanians were not pastoral shepherds is a pure phantasy on steroids.. And because of that, for example they couldn't have descended of Komani-Kruja culture automatically. The other reason this culture being Latin/Roman ofc.

Any idea that Romans didn't have arms is a pure phantasy on steroids. And because of that, English people are not descendants of Russians. Thanks for your discerning insight.

I already showed you like 10x times that Albanians and Greeks are Western Balkan populations, and Daco-Thracians etc... have too much Iran-CHG to be ancestral to them. But of course don't let that stop your nonsense.

 

[enter_tain]

We've established 10,000 times that Geg/Tosk was split around Shkumbin from 4th century to 6th century AD. This is because how Latin/Slavic loans are treated.

Komani culture is AFTER the Geg/Tosk split 7th century to 9th century AD. The odds that Komani is not Albanian is literally 0%.

 

[mount123]

I quoted Pasko Kuzman, lead Macedonian archeologist, he described on detail the Enchelei burial in Lake Ohrid, cremation on a pyre on low-mound, despite that various other aspect of this culture called Trebeniste make people wonder about their true ethnic affiliations.

So perhaps some sort of south western Thracians? Edit: since they moved to the south and are historically mentioned as being Illyrian I doubt they were anything else. (The possibility of them assimilating into another culture in the southern Balkans might be possible). Also leading „macedonian“ archeologist? Hahaha

 

[enter_tain]

This thread is a riot. I can understand Greeks and ex-Yugoslavians making up random nonsense about the Albanians. That's always happened.

But there's some weird Kosovars who want to claim a "Dardanian" legacy and get offended when you point out that their language and most of their DNA comes from Albania 300 years ago. This is what community projects like Rrenjet studies were created for and has pointed out

https://youtu.be/ng5DUbAZtPY?t=1627

They even mention in the video that people in Kosovo are not going to like this Sorry to break it to you all, but you're for the most part no different than any other northern Albanian. Any weird %Y-DNA ratios are a recent genetic bottleneck, not because of the "Dardanians" or "Thracians" or whatever.

 

[Johane Derite]

In "The Albanian autochthony hypothesis from the perspective of linguistics", Matzinger argues:


-Proto-Albanians migrated to Albania ~300-900 AD
-North Albania has older Albanian presence than South
-Albanian ethnogenesis is result of Christian Albanian pastoral communities [shepherds] coming into confrontation with non-Christian Slavs
-The area they migrated from are the late antiquity provinces of Dardania, Moesia, Dacia Mediterranea, Dacia Ripensis

He says that the approximate window of 300-900AD for the proto-Albanian migration is enough for the Gheg Tosk isogloss to have developed

The Gegë / Tosk isogloss happened before heavy contact with Slavic speaking populations, but from this it cannot be inferred that this split happened on the Shkumbin river, especially since the area around Shkumbin is full of slavic placenames.

Also, the loans from Slavic in Albanian took time to happen, proto-Albanians didn't just all of a sudden absorb all their Slavic loans the moment the Slavs came to the balkans. This would have been a protracted process that required intense contacts.

Matzinger has already discussed this:


"The historical phonology of Proto-Albanian in relation to the adaptation of place-names of the placenames in question suggests a period from 300-900 AD. i.e. to about 500 years.

(b) That would be enough time for the expression of an isogloss.

(c) The geographical spread of an isogloss can also take place from an initially relatively small area to a larger area in the course of time"


We know proto-Albanian speakers are unlikely to have been in Komani-Kruja culture because no scholars (archaeologist, historians, linguists) accept this for multiple reason.

One basic one is that they seem to have been a Dalmatian Latin speaking people, and if proto-Albanians had been living in their Romanised societies, Albanian would need to have had an entirely Dalmatian strain of latin, when it is known for a century now that Albanian has mostly Latin loans of the same type as Romanians, hence it couldn't have been in the Komani culture.

 

[enter_tain]

The Gegë / Tosk isogloss happened before heavy contact with Slavic speaking populations, but from this it cannot be inferred that this split happened on the Shkumbin river, especially since the area around Shkumbin is full of slavic placenames.

Also, the loans from Slavic in Albanian took time to happen, proto-Albanians didn't just all of a sudden absorb all their Slavic loans the moment the Slavs came to the balkans. This would have been a protracted process that required intense contacts.

Matzinger has already discussed this:


"The historical phonology of Proto-Albanian in relation to the adaptation of place-names of the placenames in question suggests a period from 300-900 AD. i.e. to about 500 years.

(b) That would be enough time for the expression of an isogloss.

(c) The geographical spread of an isogloss can also take place from an initially relatively small area to a larger area in the course of time"


We know proto-Albanian speakers are unlikely to have been in Komani-Kruja culture because no scholars (archaeologist, historians, linguists) accept this for multiple reason.

One basic one is that they seem to have been a Dalmatian Latin speaking people, and if proto-Albanians had been living in their Romanised societies, Albanian would need to have had an entirely Dalmatian strain of latin, when it is known for a century now that Albanian has mostly Latin loans of the same type as Romanians, hence it couldn't have been in the Komani culture.

Who are these people? You keep saying "no one" and "everyone". Who?

This is from Wikipedia with multiple sources

The two main Albanian dialect groups (or varieties), Gheg and Tosk, are primarily distinguished by phonological differences and are mutually intelligible in their standard varieties,^[14][15] with Gheg spoken to the north and Tosk spoken to the south of the Shkumbin river.^[16] Their characteristics^[17][18] in the treatment of both native words and loanwords provide evidence that the split into the northern and the southern dialects occurred after Christianisation of the region (4th century AD),^[19][20] and most likely not later than the 5th–6th centuries AD,^[21][22][23] hence occupying roughly their present area divided by the Shkumbin river since the Post-Roman and Pre-Slavic period, straddling the Jireček Line.^[24][25][26]

You have Demiraj, Hamp, Orel, a bunch of other people. For the last time, stop making stuff up.

 

[mount123]

This thread is a riot. I can understand Greeks and ex-Yugoslavians making up random nonsense about the Albanians. That's always happened.

But there's some weird Kosovars who want to claim a "Dardanian" legacy and get offended when you point out that their language and most of their DNA comes from Albania 300 years ago. This is what community projects like Rrenjet studies were created for and has pointed out

https://youtu.be/ng5DUbAZtPY?t=1627

They even mention in the video that people in Kosovo are not going to like this Sorry to break it to you all, but you're for the most part no different than any other northern Albanian. Any weird %Y-DNA ratios are a recent genetic bottleneck, not because of the "Dardanians" or "Thracians" or whatever.

Lol we know that for at least six generations we are in Kosovo (me being the 7th) and most f'ing likely since our Illyrian ancestors first set foot on this soil. Only migration in my family I know of is my paternal Great Great grandmother who was from Kotorr, hell, we even know when she was baptised so keep your non sense to yourself.

 

[enter_tain]

Who are these people? You keep saying "no one" and "everyone". Who?

This is from Wikipedia with multiple sources

The two main Albanian dialect groups (or varieties), Gheg and Tosk, are primarily distinguished by phonological differences and are mutually intelligible in their standard varieties,^[14][15] with Gheg spoken to the north and Tosk spoken to the south of the Shkumbin river.^[16] Their characteristics^[17][18] in the treatment of both native words and loanwords provide evidence that the split into the northern and the southern dialects occurred after Christianisation of the region (4th century AD),^[19][20] and most likely not later than the 5th–6th centuries AD,^[21][22][23] hence occupying roughly their present area divided by the Shkumbin river since the Post-Roman and Pre-Slavic period, straddling the Jireček Line.^[24][25][26]

You have Demiraj, Hamp, Orel, a bunch of other people. For the last time, stop making stuff up.

Btw, this guy Johan Derite guy 2 weeks ago was saying Komani were Asiatic. Now he's saying they're Latin/Dalmatian. Every week it's something new. This is how desperate he's getting.

 

[Johane Derite]

The Gegë / Tosk isogloss happened before heavy contact with Slavic speaking populations, but from this it cannot be inferred that this split happened on the Shkumbin river, especially since the area around Shkumbin is full of slavic placenames.

Also, the loans from Slavic in Albanian took time to happen, proto-Albanians didn't just all of a sudden absorb all their Slavic loans the moment the Slavs came to the balkans. This would have been a protracted process that required intense contacts.

Matzinger has already discussed this:


"The historical phonology of Proto-Albanian in relation to the adaptation of place-names of the placenames in question suggests a period from 300-900 AD. i.e. to about 500 years.

(b) That would be enough time for the expression of an isogloss.

(c) The geographical spread of an isogloss can also take place from an initially relatively small area to a larger area in the course of time"


We know proto-Albanian speakers are unlikely to have been in Komani-Kruja culture because no scholars (archaeologist, historians, linguists) accept this for multiple reason.

One basic one is that they seem to have been a Dalmatian Latin speaking people, and if proto-Albanians had been living in their Romanised societies, Albanian would need to have had an entirely Dalmatian strain of latin, when it is known for a century now that Albanian has mostly Latin loans of the same type as Romanians, hence it couldn't have been in the Komani culture.

As Matzinger, Schumacher, De Vaan, and countless of the most updated linguist specialists of Albanian demonstrate, this 500 year period (which is a rough estimate) is enough time for the Tosk isogloss (rhotacism N ->R to develop).

It cannot be inferred from the modern distribution however that this isogloss began on the Shkumbin. As Matzinger comments, the geographical spread of an isogloss can take place from an initially small area.

So it is possible that the first proto-Albanians that rhotacised N->R were not even south of the shkumbin, etc, but that their eventual spread would match this distribution.

This 300-900AD 500 year window period meets the criteria of being both Post Roman and Pre-Slavic.

Also given that proto-Albanians were shepherds at this point, it is unlikely they would have immediately begun to have had intense contacts with Slavs, but rather that these contacts only intensified once Slavs established their societies:

 

[Johane Derite]

Lol we know that for at least six generations we are in Kosovo (me being the 7th) and most f'ing likely since our Illyrian ancestors first set foot on this soil. Only migration in my family I know of is my paternal Great Great grandmother who was from Kotorr, hell, we even know when she was baptised so keep your non sense to yourself.

That is only ~150 years ago. It is extremly improbable, if not impossible, that you descend from Illyrians of the exact region you are living in today. There were countless wars over the last 2000 years and countless retreats and expansions of the Albanian people. The proto-Albanians (tosks and Geges) probably migrated into Albania, and from there expanded in surrounding regions.

It is unlikely that Dardani survived in KS since 2000 years ago.

 

[mount123]

That is only ~150 years ago. It is extremly improbable, if not impossible, that you descend from Illyrians of the exact region you are living in today. There were countless wars over the last 2000 years and countless retreats and expansions of the Albanian people. The proto-Albanians (tosks and Geges) probably migrated into Albania, and from there expanded in surrounding regions.

It is unlikely that Dardani survived in KS since 2000 years ago.

I was equating "generations" with my "x times great grandfathers", my bad but even then my number was wrong. Our known presence here extends to roughly 1567. Sure should have equated soil generally with the Balkans rather the the modern territory of Kosovo.

 

[Johane Derite]

I was equating "generations" with my "x times great grandfathers", my bad but even then my number was wrong. Our known presence here extends to roughly 1567. Sure should have equated soil generally with the Balkans rather the the modern territory of Kosovo.

I see. I think it is extremely probable L283 would have been at the least in the Illyrian parts of Dardania in antiquity.

I don't think its likely we can have any linear continuity for any one place, as even our collective memory doesn't go back further than ~1300s (oldest tribal geneaologies recorded). Probably we should expect a wave scenario, with expansion periods, periods of decline, and then expansion again, etc.

 

[Hawk]

So perhaps some sort of south western Thracians? Edit: since they moved to the south and are historically mentioned as being Illyrian I doubt they were anything else. (The possibility of them assimilating into another culture in the southern Balkans might be possible). Also leading „macedonian“ archeologist? Hahaha

I see you guys are completely clueless hence your inability to reply thoroughly analyzing what is being written, and the only defense-mechanism you have is chimping on your keyboard with "ancient authors said this", "ancient authors said that".

Pasko Kuzman is the most famous Macedonian archaeologist or North Macedonian, whatever you want to call them. Since Enchelei lived around Lake Ohrid, it is to be expected the archeologist from that country to research about the material culture of the people that resided within the borders of that current country.

And, material culture tells us more about them than just label or wrong assumptions that they moved from Montenegro or whatever.

On this occasion, special attention is given to the Tomb of the Warriors (Tomb 1) in which 6 warriors were buried together with their complete military armor. The tomb (dimensions: 5.50 x 4.50 m) was built with a row of larger limestone blocks, and after the cremation burial it was filled with amorphous stones and earth, shaping a low mound-like structure. The pyre was set in the central part of the tomb, and around it, embedded and arranged in a specially brought lake sand, were the military attributes: 6 bronze helmets, 11 greaves, and 15 iron spears, with features suggesting some military subordination or simply warriors who have died in a battle being “the Leader and his comrades.”

https://pebasite.wordpress.com/peba-2020/representations-of-power-an-ancient-macedonian-elite/

This is not the burial rite which the Illyrians as a group are differentiated by Albanian and Yugoslav archeologists. This is different, cremation on a pyre on a low mound. Then their second burial is rectangular pits.

 

[mount123]

I see you guys are completely clueless hence your inability to reply thoroughly analyzing what is being written, and the only defense-mechanism you have is chimping on your keyboard with "ancient authors said this", "ancient authors said that".

Pasko Kuzman is the most famous Macedonian archaeologist or North Macedonian, whatever you want to call them. Since Enchelei lived around Lake Ohrid, it is to be expected the archeologist from that country to research about the material culture of the people that resided within the borders of that current country.

And, material culture tells us more about them than just label or wrong assumptions that they moved from Montenegro or whatever.



This is not the burial rite which the Illyrians as a group are differentiated by Albanian and Yugoslav archeologists. This is different, cremation on a pyre on a low mound. Then their second burial is rectangular pits.

Why always so passive aggressive Hasan Bey?

Sure, but an adaption or partial assimilation into another culture of that sphere can also be responsible for this. It is a known fact that people's believes and practices changed over time.

 

[Johane Derite]

"Church expressions that Albanian borrowed from Latin show a phonetic form that evinces a connection with the old Romance language of Dalmatia. A smaller portion of church vocabulary is of Greek origin.


The conversion of the early Albanians to Christianity thus took place primarily from Romanised Dalmatia and only to a lesser extent was there contact with the Greek church."

"Thus, the homeland of the early Albanians is located in a region neighbouring Dalmatia, but which was not too far from the Greek language border.


This restricts the location to a smaller region, the basin of Kosovo and the mountain regions of North Albania."

 

[Johane Derite]

Examples of Albanian Christian vocabulary:


Albanian. kryq from Latin. crūx, as opposed to Greek. σταυρός (stauros)


Albanian. shêjntë from Latin. sānctus as opposed to Greek. ἅγιoς (hagios)


This holds true for Tosk also, meaning proto-Tosk wasn't spoken near the Greek church just like proto-Gegë