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Thread: The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations.

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriele Pashaj View Post
    Yes, you are right. I read it yesterday and I remained astonished. Dark skinned? Puzzling...


    I'm more puzzled about the fact that the word ***mentation is censored on Eupedia, thus you can't even post new genetic papers on skin color since the use of this censored word automatically blocks your post. Anyway, Ageans were largely of Anatolian farmer ancestry but with considerable CH/ Iran Neo admixture. According to several genetic studies Anatolian farmers were light skinned, and spread this trait through Europe. The CHGs were also predicted as being light skinned. In addition to that, there was also a genetic study on ancient Israel that found out, that Anatolian and Zaragos Iranian farmers brought fair complexion and blue eyes to Chalcolithic Israel.

    https://www.livescience.com/63396-ancient-israel-immigration-turkey-iran.html

    So, when going by these facts, all the ancestral groups of the Aegeans were not particularly dark- skinned but at least moderately light. Therefore, I try to make sense out the fact, that the Ageans despite carrying both alleles for light skin were predicted as dark here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    I'm more puzzled about the fact that the word ***mentation is censored on Eupedia, thus you can't even post new genetic papers on skin color since the use of this censored word automatically blocks your post. Anyway, Ageans were largely of Anatolian farmer ancestry but with considerable CH/ Iran Neo admixture. According to several genetic studies Anatolian farmers were light skinned, and spread this trait through Europe. The CHGs were also predicted as being light skinned. In addition to that, there was also a genetic study on ancient Israel that found out, that Anatolian and Zaragos Iranian farmers brought fair complexion and blue eyes to Chalcolithic Israel.

    https://www.livescience.com/63396-ancient-israel-immigration-turkey-iran.html

    So, when going by these facts, all the ancestral groups of the Aegeans were not particularly dark- skinned but at least moderately light. Therefore, I try to make sense out the fact, that the Ageans despite carrying both alleles for light skin were predicted as dark here.
    maybe it is a mistake in the paper that could be
    slc24a5 and slc45a2 are crucial for skin color
    so if those aegeans were derived for it they were light skined ....
    but afcorse everything is relative
    it could be that they were homozygous for the derived allells of slc24a5 and were hetrozygous for the derived allells of slc45a2
    in that case they were liklely not white skin like northwestern european ( english ) but more olive skin like me
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC7391/

    https://yfull.com/mtree/H3ap/

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    maybe it is a mistake in the paper that could be
    slc24a5 and slc45a2 are crucial for skin color
    so if those aegeans were derived for it they were light skined ....
    but afcorse everything is relative
    it could be that they were homozygous for the derived allells of slc24a5 and were hetrozygous for the derived allells of slc45a2
    in that case they were liklely not white skin like northwestern european ( english ) but more olive skin like me
    If that is you on the picture. I wouldn't say you are olive skinned. Quite pale/pink.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    Who introduced the steppe ancestry in Greece? so far they have not found even R1b-Z2103, or it was female mediated?. It certainly does not appear to have been R1b-L51 or any of its subclades. In both Greece (Mycenaean) and Anatolia (Hittites) the IE speakers are J2, not R1b. I suppose at some point they will find R1b-Z2103 coming from Serbia.

    There is an African Mit L3d1/b1- Manika, Euboea island-MIK04 approx 2,800 BC, maybe they have considered that sample (dark skinned).


    Well, the analyzed samples Pta08, Kou01,and Log02 who were predicted to be most likely dark- skinned didn't carry an African mtdna. In addition to that, they all had both genes that are responsible for light skin. Besides, let's assume the Steppe ancestry was female meditated in Greece. The question remains, could, and would Indo-European females impose a very warlike and highly patriarchal culture on the indigenous Aegans? How realistic is that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    If that is you on the picture. I wouldn't say you are olive skinned. Quite pale/pink.

    it could be that those aegeans were like
    pete sampras i mean (in skin color) it is logic given the environment they were
    living in


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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    it could be that those aegeans were like
    pete sampras i mean (in skin color) it is logic given the environment they were
    living in

    Could be. Personally not really that interested in p*i*g*mentation. 1 I dont really care. 2. I am sure we have no clue, we know couple of genes out of countless that could affect p*i*g*mentation a number of ways. So really with the resources we have, hard to make definitive claims.

    Edit:Not sure why p-i-g is censored. Its just an animal. Gonna test smth: Testing complete. So I delete the cuss word. So offensive words are not censored but pi-g is, very wierd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    maybe it is a mistake in the paper that could be
    slc24a5 and slc45a2 are crucial for skin color
    so if those aegeans were derived for it they were light skined ....
    but afcorse everything is relative
    it could be that they were homozygous for the derived allells of slc24a5 and were hetrozygous for the derived allells of slc45a2
    in that case they were liklely not white skin like northwestern european ( english ) but more olive skin like me
    In that context olive complexion would make sense, since Europeans with that skin tone are often considered dark- skinned. However, intermediate is usually used for describing olive skin by researchers. The thing is the word "dark" can mean anything from light olive till very brown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    In that context olive complexion would make sense, since Europeans with that skin tone are often considered dark- skinned. However, intermediate is usually used for describing olive skin by researchers. The thing is the word "dark" can mean anything from light olive till very brown.

    my advice:
    send emaill to the researches of this paper
    to clarify what they realy mean in the term dark skin
    for those individual remains
    ?
    i am sure they will answere


    p.s

    by the way gaska sharp eye notice the ancient bronze age individual with mtdna L is pretty cool
    they did found some mtdna L cases in bronza age iberia but to found it in greece is amazing

    from paper supplementry tables pdf :

    MIK08: haplogroup L The MIK08 individual was associated with the African haplogroup L3d1b1. Haplogroup980 L3 sits at the root of the mtDNA phylogenetic tree of haplogroups found outside of Africa,and thus it is associated to the out of Africa expansion (Behar et al., 2008; Van Oven andKayser, 2009). A HG individual with the haplogroup L was found in the African MotaCave (Llorente et al., 2015) and in Iberia associated with the Bell Beaker culture (Olaldeet al., 2018).

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    my advice:
    send emaill to the researches of this paper
    to clarify what they realy mean in the term dark skin
    for those individual remains
    ?
    i am sure they will answere


    p.s

    by the way gaska sharp eye notice the ancient bronze age individual with mtdna L is pretty cool
    they did found some mtdna L cases in bronza age iberia but to found it in greece is amazing

    from paper supplementry tables pdf :

    MIK08: haplogroup L The MIK08 individual was associated with the African haplogroup L3d1b1. Haplogroup980 L3 sits at the root of the mtDNA phylogenetic tree of haplogroups found outside of Africa,and thus it is associated to the out of Africa expansion (Behar et al., 2008; Van Oven andKayser, 2009). A HG individual with the haplogroup L was found in the African MotaCave (Llorente et al., 2015) and in Iberia associated with the Bell Beaker culture (Olaldeet al., 2018).
    I don't know why you find this so surprising. Geneticists should consult European databases before making such considerations because this sample in Greece is more related to the sample found in the CWC-Poland-Mit-L3c'd- (Proszowice-CWC-cw420-2. 390 BC-Linderholm, 2.020) than with the sample from Camino de las Yeseras (Madrid-BBC-which is L1b1/a-2.376 BC-Olalde, 2.018). Another Mit L3 appeared in the British Isles (If I remember well, in the site of Bryn yr HenBobl-2.802 BC). Samples with African origin (male and female) have appeared in Iberia, France, Greece, Poland and the British Isles. These are sporadic cases but it should not surprise anyone if they appear more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Besides, let's assume the Steppe ancestry was female meditated in Greece. The question remains, could, and would Indo-European females impose a very warlike and highly patriarchal culture on the indigenous Aegans? How realistic is that?
    Evidently the answer is NO, women are not the only ones responsible for the spread of IE languages, nor were they able to impose a patriarchal society neither in Greece nor in Western Europe. But then, we have to find which are the paternal lineages responsible for that process, because so far the only lineage that has been found both in Anatolia (Chalcolithic and Hittite Empire) and in Greece (Cycladic, Minoan and Mycenaean culture) is J2a>M410- I suppose that Z2103 also participated, because it has been found in some deposits of the eastern domain of the BBC and in Mocrin (Serbia), but this will have to be demonstrated by geneticists. It certainly does not seem that R1b-L51>P312 has anything to do with IE in Eastern Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    my advice:
    send emaill to the researches of this paper
    to clarify what they realy mean in the term dark skin
    for those individual remains
    ?
    I read the whole study again and found out, that the authors used Hirisplexskin color predictor. Modern Sardians score with this predictor "intermediate" to "dark". Hence, I now assume, that these tested Ageans were probably as "dark" as modern Sardians, thus on the olive tone spectrum.

    Furthermore, we used the capture data to infer eye-, hair- and skin color for the individuals Kou01, Log02 and Pta08 using the HIrisPLex-S DNA Phenotyping Webtool (https://hirisplex.erasmusmc.nl/). We compared our data set with the 41 SNPs published as HIrisPlex-S (Chaitanya et al., 2018; Walsh et al., 2017) and found an overlap of 30 SNPs (Table S1, “Nuclear capture” tab). Note that HIrisPLex-S is an extension of the previously published HIrisPLex, which contains 24 SNPs for eye and hair color determination (Walsh et al., 2014) and that our data cover 23 of those 24 SNPs. The HIrisPLex-S webtool calculates individual prediction probabilities and associated values for the loss of prediction accuracy (AUC loss) depending on the available set of SNPs. The results for Kou01, Log02 and Pta08 are given in Table S1. The most supported eye, hair and skin color is the one with the highest prediction probability (Table S1). A discussion about lactose intolerance can be found in Document S1....



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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Hi, Angela, can you please explain why the 3 tested Aeagans in that paper were predicted as most likely dark despite carrying both de***mentation genes SLC24A5 and SLC45A2? And what does “dark-skinned mean here- light brown/beige, olive complexion or reddish/ chestnut brown? As far as I can remember the Minoans and Mycenaeans from the Lazardis study were predicted as moderately light-skinned.
    If you go to the actual table in the Supplement and keep clicking until you get nuclear capture, you can see that they used Hirisplex S which tests a LOT of snps, not just the two well known ones. So, the results are supposedly more accurate than just using SLC24A5 and SLC45A2.

    For SLC24A5, the derived is A. All three samples are derived for that.

    For SLC45A2, sometimes called the European skin allele, the derived allele is G.

    In the chart you can see that both Kou 1 and Log 2 are homogeneous ancestral, with the Crete sample being heterogeneous. Now, it shouldn't be surprising that SLC45A2 was not present in our one steppe admixed sample. The majority of the people of the Pontic Caspian Steppe did not have it, and were predicted to be "darker" than any present day Europeans. Light skin did not come from the steppe. They picked it up in Central Europe and then brought it back east.

    Still, I'm surprised that the prediction was actually not "dark", but "very dark", except for the Cyclades sample.


    Perhaps there is something wrong? If someone has access to the Hirisplex S system, they could run the markers through it again just to check. If it still comes out "very dark" perhaps the authors should be contacted to see if they're sure of the ancestral state of some of the other alleles. It does seem a bit odd.

    Unless, of course, this is what the Hirisplex S system means by "very dark": i.e. the Mycenaean Warrior

    It won't let me upload the picture, but you can find it here.
    http://cdn.sci-news.com/images/enlar...in-Warrior.jpg

    Ignore the attempt to "lighten" him up; this is the original picture from the cave.

    I always assumed some of that was tan, but apparently not.

    If everything is legit it certainly proves that de***mentation is a relatively recent phenomenon based on selection in place and had nothing to do with the steppe, which was populated by people darker than modern Europeans. Also, the WHG would probably have been "black", not dark brown, since they had none of these snps.

    Just FYI, Google is limiting access to any paper which has the word ***mentation in it if it applies to human population studies (i.e. not diseases etc.) I couldn't find either the Wilde paper or the Mathiesen ones. They still show up on Bing searches. That's it for Google. I'm switching to Bing.

    It's unbelievable. I would suggest keeping your list of the appropriate papers or you may never find them again. In fact, save them or print them out. So much for objectivity in science.

    I never thought I'd see the day this would happen in western countries.

    This is the Wilde paper on the Pontic Caspian steppe.
    https://www.pnas.org/content/111/13/4832

    Mathiesen has a paper out in 2021.


    P.S. Only one of the samples had the derived allele for SLC45A2, and he was heterogeneous and from Crete.

    The prediction labels come from Hirisplex S. It is very dark to black for Log 2 and the Cretan sample. Only the Cyclades sample came out "dark".

    People are getting information from unreliable sources. I always check the data myself from the paper.





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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    I don't know why you find this so surprising. Geneticists should consult European databases before making such considerations because this sample in Greece is more related to the sample found in the CWC-Poland-Mit-L3c'd- (Proszowice-CWC-cw420-2. 390 BC-Linderholm, 2.020) than with the sample from Camino de las Yeseras (Madrid-BBC-which is L1b1/a-2.376 BC-Olalde, 2.018). Another Mit L3 appeared in the British Isles (If I remember well, in the site of Bryn yr HenBobl-2.802 BC). Samples with African origin (male and female) have appeared in Iberia, France, Greece, Poland and the British Isles. These are sporadic cases but it should not surprise anyone if they appear more.
    You're right. The mtDNA L3, although of African origin(debated) isn't that exotic outside the continent and in Eurasia. L3 is strongly associated with the OoA event of modern humans 70-50, 000 years ago.

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    My Dodecad K12B results based on coordinates provided by Jovialis (post #74)

    Distance to: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
    5.70363919 MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log02
    8.03052925 MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04
    27.91290562 EBA_Helladic_Manika:Mik15
    30.70116284 EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou03
    31.07440587 EBA_Minoan_Petras:Pta08
    31.79075495 EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou01

    2 way mode

    Distance to: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
    4.44805889 65.20% MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log02 + 34.80% MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04
    4.75862217 19.00% EBA_Helladic_Manika:Mik15 + 81.00% MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04
    5.28385242 16.40% EBA_Minoan_Petras:Pta08 + 83.60% MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04
    5.43205124 15.80% EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou01 + 84.20% MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04
    6.06659526 14.80% EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou03 + 85.20% MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04
    27.88157533 9.40% EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou03 + 90.60% EBA_Helladic_Manika:Mik15
    30.66569933 22.80% EBA_Minoan_Petras:Pta08 + 77.20% EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou03

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    So if I interpreted this correctly? This supports the current consensus that during the BA, IE populations moved north of the Black Sea into the Balkans contributing to modern populations?
    I doubt it. They should have used Balkans EBA as one source population, either the samples from Croatia or the ones from Bulgaria, although there could have been a movement from somewhere in between.

    These samples from the Balkans do not have real 'steppe' ancestry but basically increased 'European Hunter gatherer like' admixture.

    The models with 'Steppe EMBA' are defenitely nonsensical. Yamnaya was the result of West to East movement either way and it was definetely not PIE. (too late, dominated by 1 hg, largely replaced by other groups etc.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    ..........


    P.S. Only one of the samples had the derived allele for SLC45A2, and he was heterogeneous and from Crete.

    The prediction labels come from Hirisplex S. It is very dark to black for Log 2 and the Cretan sample. Only the Cyclades sample came out "dark".

    People are getting information from unreliable sources. I always check the data myself from the paper.



    Thanks a lot for clarifying the conclusions of this paper. Very surprising to say at least, that the BA Northern Greek individual with high steppe admixture is darker than the Cretans . So, going by this paper BA Greeks could've been dark brown to black. Who'd have thought this? Anyway, Afrocentric cranks like Clyde Winters will have their field day since they argued for a long time that the original Greeks, Minoans and Mycenaeans were "black". It almost seems that fringe and crazy theories do have some elements of truth..


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    I don't know why you find this so surprising. Geneticists should consult European databases before making such considerations because this sample in Greece is more related to the sample found in the CWC-Poland-Mit-L3c'd- (Proszowice-CWC-cw420-2. 390 BC-Linderholm, 2.020) than with the sample from Camino de las Yeseras (Madrid-BBC-which is L1b1/a-2.376 BC-Olalde, 2.018). Another Mit L3 appeared in the British Isles (If I remember well, in the site of Bryn yr HenBobl-2.802 BC). Samples with African origin (male and female) have appeared in Iberia, France, Greece, Poland and the British Isles. These are sporadic cases but it should not surprise anyone if they appear more.

    Well i am intrested to know the way this L3d1b1 arrived to
    Greece
    Was it :
    1) africa > levant> anatolia > greece
    Or
    2) africa > iberia>rest of europe (including greece)

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    Just as a collaboration, next I put my phenotype analyzed from my combination of SNPs, according reports from Tellmegen and YourDNAportal.
    rs1426654 AA

    https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs1426654(A;A)

    rs16891982 CG


    https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs16891982Oh

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    In that context olive complexion would make sense, since Europeans with that skin tone are often considered dark- skinned. However, intermediate is usually used for describing olive skin by researchers. The thing is the word "dark" can mean anything from light olive till very brown.
    Agree. Question of vocabulary. for the most, by instance in France, when we say 'olive' colour skin we think rather mediterranean light skin in winter (compared to the allover variety of mondial shades); for other, it's rather an already 'brunet' skin, not middle bron, but darker. Ans so on... it would seem that the accumulation of SLC24A5+SLC45A2 produce at homozygoty level fairer skin, but it's hard to prove.
    By the way, ***mentation is an element of identification among others; interesting concerning natural selection (when studied with caution) and history on a relatively short span of time in similar climates; In France hair ***mentation is one of diverse ones which seems showing Germanics inputs here and there, if not sufficient in itself of course!

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    yes
    and anyway this result and overlapp is not something
    nordicist would like
    but we are not in battle here of med- nordic
    Let's not wake them up, please. No noise!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Now, it shouldn't be surprising that SLC45A2 was not present in our one steppe admixed sample. The majority of the people of the Pontic Caspian Steppe did not have it


    According to Mathieson 2015/2018 they did:




    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4918750/
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6091220/

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    it could be that those aegeans were like
    pete sampras i mean (in skin color) it is logic given the environment they were
    living in

    Here, they are tanned; I'm not even 'light olive' skinned in winter, but when full tanned, I'm brownish skinned, evidently!

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    Dark to black skin is a very surprising diagnostic, I think!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Dark to black skin is a very surprising diagnostic, I think!
    also probably completely wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Agree. Question of vocabulary. for the most, by instance in France, when we say 'olive' colour skin we think rather mediterranean light skin in winter (compared to the allover variety of mondial shades); for other, it's rather an already 'brunet' skin, not middle bron, but darker. Ans so on... it would seem that the accumulation of SLC24A5+SLC45A2 produce at homozygoty level fairer skin, but it's hard to prove.
    By the way, ***mentation is an element of identification among others; interesting concerning natural selection (when studied with caution) and history on a relatively short span of time in similar climates; In France hair ***mentation is one of diverse ones which seems showing Germanics inputs here and there, if not sufficient in itself of course!

    The thing is, that very dark to black can’t be translated into the typical Mediterranean olive, light brown or beige skin color. If the ancient Aegeans were largely of WHG instead of EEF/ANF extraction, I wouldn't be surprised that they apparently turned out be super dark. However, over the years in multiple scientific papers, geneticists were asserting that Anatolian farmers had introduced"light/fair skinned" allele into Europe. So, it was like WHGs= very dark to black, and Anatolian farmers= light skinned. Hence, I expect all kinds of surprises from all directions in upcoming studies about ancient DNA, and it won't be boring. By the way, I read on the internet, that Hirisplex updated their skin color predictor in 2018, for being more able to predict skin colour variation within West Eurasia, from brown to white.

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