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The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations.

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Jovialis said:
Fascinating,



So early Helladic cultures were mostly Anatolian_N/CHG-IN, while Northern Greeks later in the middle bronze age were 50% steppe?
Click to expand...

It would seem so, but that is very far north. As I've said previously in this thread, as they moved south the steppe percentage became lower and lower.

As I also speculated upthread (and provided data for the changes between the EBA and MBA in Greece), the coming of the steppe heavy "proto-Greeks", far from bringing civilization, almost completely destroyed EBA Greece, bringing poverty and decline, probably disease too; settlements abandoned, poor grave goods etc.

It's been the same story everywhere.

Other than the domesticated horse, their language, their "sky" gods, and a hugely militaristic and aggressive bent to society, they brought nothing of value except the domesticated horse.

The authors are naïve if they think there has been 90% survival since the Log samples. Even if the Slavs didn't have the impact people have speculated (which I always tended to doubt), they must have had some, even if the overall similarity in terms of very ancient samples is the same as LOG samples. You have to have samples in every period, so you can see the proximate populations involved.
 
Angela said:
It would seem so, but that is very far north. As I've said previously in this thread, as they moved south the steppe percentage became lower and lower.

As I also speculated upthread (and provided data for the changes between the EBA and MBA in Greece), the coming of the steppe heavy "proto-Greeks", far from bringing civilization, almost completely destroyed EBA Greece, bringing poverty and decline, probably disease too; settlements abandoned, poor grave goods etc.

It's been the same story everywhere.

Other than the domesticated horse, their language, their "sky" gods, and a hugely militaristic and aggressive bent to society, they brought nothing of value except the domesticated horse.

The authors are naïve if they think there has been 90% survival since the Log samples. Even if the Slavs didn't have the impact people have speculated (which I always tended to doubt), they must have had some, even if the overall similarity in terms of very ancient samples is the same as LOG samples. You have to have samples in every period, so you can see the proximate populations involved.
Click to expand...

My results: EBA very distant, MBA better but not great; I guess I have too much steppe.
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Angela[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8D00, align: right"]10.83918355[/TD]
[TD]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log02[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1800, align: right"]14.29946852[/TD]
[TD]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F300FF, align: right"]22.86250861[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Helladic_Manika:Mik15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4400FF, align: right"]27.98950875[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3E00FF, align: right"]28.18854555[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Minoan_Petras:Pta08[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3B00FF, align: right"]28.25157164[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou01
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
i have horrible distance to all of them ::laughing:

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]adam[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF001C, align: right"]15.83015793[/TD]
[TD]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log02[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00C4, align: right"]20.76650669[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00C7, align: right"]20.85608305[/TD]
[TD]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F600FF, align: right"]22.77068510[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Minoan_Petras:Pta08[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C100FF, align: right"]24.32685964[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou01[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BC00FF, align: right"]24.46153102[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Helladic_Manika:Mik15
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Angela said:
It would seem so, but that is very far north. As I've said previously in this thread, as they moved south the steppe percentage became lower and lower.

As I also speculated upthread (and provided data for the changes between the EBA and MBA in Greece), the coming of the steppe heavy "proto-Greeks", far from bringing civilization, almost completely destroyed EBA Greece, bringing poverty and decline, probably disease too; settlements abandoned, poor grave goods etc.

It's been the same story everywhere.

Other than the domesticated horse, their language, their "sky" gods, and a hugely militaristic and aggressive bent to society, they brought nothing of value except the domesticated horse.

The authors are naïve if they think there has been 90% survival since the Log samples. Even if the Slavs didn't have the impact people have speculated (which I always tended to doubt), they must have had some, even if the overall similarity in terms of very ancient samples is the same as LOG samples. You have to have samples in every period, so you can see the proximate populations involved.
Click to expand...

"Civilization" in the meaning of walled cities, taxation, etc. was never a Western European invention. It was imposed by sources like the Romans (who had significant contact with Greeks and others).
 
Angela said:
It would seem so, but that is very far north. As I've said previously in this thread, as they moved south the steppe percentage became lower and lower.

As I also speculated upthread (and provided data for the changes between the EBA and MBA in Greece), the coming of the steppe heavy "proto-Greeks", far from bringing civilization, almost completely destroyed EBA Greece, bringing poverty and decline, probably disease too; settlements abandoned, poor grave goods etc.

It's been the same story everywhere.

Other than the domesticated horse, their language, their "sky" gods, and a hugely militaristic and aggressive bent to society, they brought nothing of value except the domesticated horse.

The authors are naïve if they think there has been 90% survival since the Log samples. Even if the Slavs didn't have the impact people have speculated (which I always tended to doubt), they must have had some, even if the overall similarity in terms of very ancient samples is the same as LOG samples. You have to have samples in every period, so you can see the proximate populations involved.
Click to expand...

The EBA Helladics look fairly close to the LBA Mycenaeans too, autosomally.
 
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Jovialis[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA400, align: right"]10.17582920[/TD]
[TD]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log02[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0007, align: right"]15.21679993[/TD]
[TD]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00EB, align: right"]21.91432865[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EB00FF, align: right"]23.10205402[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Helladic_Manika:Mik15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D500FF, align: right"]23.73475721[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Minoan_Petras:Pta08[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B500FF, align: right"]24.68769937[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou01

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9B00, align: right"]10.43492693[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Helladic_Manika:Mik15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6400, align: right"]12.06881519[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Minoan_Petras:Pta08[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6300, align: right"]12.07672555[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou01[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5E00, align: right"]12.23097707[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0059, align: right"]17.61742603[/TD]
[TD]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log02[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8C00FF, align: right"]25.89092505[/TD]
[TD]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8C00, align: right"]10.88073067[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Helladic_Manika:Mik15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0030, align: right"]16.40191147[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou01[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0031, align: right"]16.44074512[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Minoan_Petras:Pta08[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0043, align: right"]16.95989092[/TD]
[TD]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log02[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF004B, align: right"]17.21235022[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C600FF, align: right"]24.17193000[/TD]
[TD]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE200, align: right"]8.35844483[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Helladic_Manika:Mik15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4B00, align: right"]12.78122842[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Minoan_Petras:Pta08[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3300, align: right"]13.50211835[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou01[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF000F, align: right"]15.44432906[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF007E, align: right"]18.71543748[/TD]
[TD]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log02[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #5D00FF, align: right"]27.25182012[/TD]
[TD]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EEFF00, align: right"]6.99439776[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE300, align: right"]8.32957982[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou01[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBB00, align: right"]9.51363758[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Minoan_Petras:Pta08[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5200, align: right"]12.59342289[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Helladic_Manika:Mik15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DB00FF, align: right"]23.57097580[/TD]
[TD]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log02[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]31.43262954[/TD]
[TD]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log02[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A7FF00, align: right"]4.90509939[/TD]
[TD]Albanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCFF00, align: right"]5.99123526[/TD]
[TD]Albanian_Kosovo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D4FF00, align: right"]6.24177058[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Romagna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D7FF00, align: right"]6.32433396[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DEFF00, align: right"]6.52834589[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thrace[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E3FF00, align: right"]6.66853807[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EDFF00, align: right"]6.97383682[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaloniki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EFFF00, align: right"]7.02855632[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FDFF00, align: right"]7.43986559[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_South[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEF00, align: right"]7.97242748[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEB00, align: right"]8.10203678[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_Vardar[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE600, align: right"]8.23196210[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDE00, align: right"]8.45814992[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Athens[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDB00, align: right"]8.56168792[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Central[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFCD00, align: right"]8.96979375[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Emilia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFCD00, align: right"]8.97196745[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian_Thrace[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFCB00, align: right"]9.02161848[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_East[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC400, align: right"]9.24909185[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB700, align: right"]9.62003638[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA900, align: right"]10.03277629[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_Polog[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA700, align: right"]10.09873259[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Makedonya[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA400, align: right"]10.18243095[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8E00, align: right"]10.81044402[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8E00, align: right"]10.83489732[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8D00, align: right"]10.85424341[/TD]
[TD]French_Corsica
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]



[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C0FF00, align: right"]5.64006206[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_Vardar[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D0FF00, align: right"]6.12159293[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_Polog[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DAFF00, align: right"]6.41073319[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Friuli_VG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DAFF00, align: right"]6.41352477[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_East[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E8FF00, align: right"]6.83537124[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_South[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F3FF00, align: right"]7.15973463[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F9FF00, align: right"]7.30935018[/TD]
[TD]Albanian_Kosovo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF800, align: right"]7.69858429[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEB00, align: right"]8.10115424[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEA00, align: right"]8.11762280[/TD]
[TD]Moldovan_Gagauz[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE000, align: right"]8.40295186[/TD]
[TD]Romanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDB00, align: right"]8.56334631[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian_West[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD800, align: right"]8.63729124[/TD]
[TD]Moldovan_South[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD800, align: right"]8.64762973[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD800, align: right"]8.65971131[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian_Central[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD600, align: right"]8.70143092[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian_East[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC100, align: right"]9.33067522[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC000, align: right"]9.34067985[/TD]
[TD]Montenegrin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBC00, align: right"]9.47814328[/TD]
[TD]Pomak_Bulgaria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBB00, align: right"]9.49851041[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Trentino[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB800, align: right"]9.58237444[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Emilia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB400, align: right"]9.70237600[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Makedonya[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFAC00, align: right"]9.92730578[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thrace[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFAB00, align: right"]9.98512394[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian_Thrace[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFAA00, align: right"]10.00701754[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Liguria

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
View attachment 12671
This makes sense .. I mean, Logkas sample is like The Albania but little close to Sardinia
 
I think yes
 
Archetype0ne said:
So if I interpreted this correctly? This supports the current consensus that during the BA, IE populations moved north of the Black Sea into the Balkans contributing to modern populations?
Click to expand...

However, it also shows that the early Bronze Age Helladics in the south, had very little steppe.
 
Jovialis said:
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9B00, align: right"]10.43492693[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Helladic_Manika:Mik15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6400, align: right"]12.06881519[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Minoan_Petras:Pta08[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6300, align: right"]12.07672555[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou01[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5E00, align: right"]12.23097707[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0059, align: right"]17.61742603[/TD]
[TD]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log02[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8C00FF, align: right"]25.89092505[/TD]
[TD]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8C00, align: right"]10.88073067[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Helladic_Manika:Mik15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0030, align: right"]16.40191147[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou01[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0031, align: right"]16.44074512[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Minoan_Petras:Pta08[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0043, align: right"]16.95989092[/TD]
[TD]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log02[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF004B, align: right"]17.21235022[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C600FF, align: right"]24.17193000[/TD]
[TD]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE200, align: right"]8.35844483[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Helladic_Manika:Mik15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4B00, align: right"]12.78122842[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Minoan_Petras:Pta08[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3300, align: right"]13.50211835[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou01[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF000F, align: right"]15.44432906[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF007E, align: right"]18.71543748[/TD]
[TD]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log02[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #5D00FF, align: right"]27.25182012[/TD]
[TD]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EEFF00, align: right"]6.99439776[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE300, align: right"]8.32957982[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou01[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBB00, align: right"]9.51363758[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Minoan_Petras:Pta08[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5200, align: right"]12.59342289[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Helladic_Manika:Mik15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DB00FF, align: right"]23.57097580[/TD]
[TD]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log02[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]31.43262954[/TD]
[TD]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...

It's good that it's finally settled that " Despite their distinct cultures, the EBA Helladic, Cycladic, and Minoan genomes resemble one another in all analyses."

Once again, the archaeologists got it right:

"ADMIXTURE results indicate that the EBA Aegean population consists mostly of an ancestry component shared with Neolithic Aegeans (accounting for >65%), whereas most of the remaining ancestry can be assigned to Iran Neolithic/Caucasus HG-related populations (17%–27%) (Figure 3). These results were replicated with qpWave/qpAdm (STAR Methods) using Dataset I (Tables 3 and S3). When considering early Neolithic populations and HG populations as potential sources, EBA individuals were in general found to be consistent with the majority of their ancestry deriving from populations related to Anatolia_N (∼69%–84%) (Table 3). This suggests that the people behind the Neolithic to BA transition largely had ancestors from the preceding Aegean farmers, in line with archaeological theories for the EBA transformation (Dickinson, 2016; Renfrew, 1972; Tsountas and Manatt, 1897)"

[FONT=NexusSerif, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, STIXGeneral, Cambria Math, Lucida Sans Unicode, Microsoft Sans Serif, Segoe UI Symbol, Arial Unicode MS, serif]So, all the achievements of the Early Bronze Age owed NOTHING to the steppe, as I've said innumerable times.[/FONT]

[FONT=NexusSerif, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, STIXGeneral, Cambria Math, Lucida Sans Unicode, Microsoft Sans Serif, Segoe UI Symbol, Arial Unicode MS, serif]Interesting that in f3 the EBA Greeks are closest to Sardinians, and then, variably, Basque/North Italian and Pais Vasco before, variably, Albanians and Greeks, and in one case Romanians.[/FONT]

[FONT=NexusSerif, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, STIXGeneral, Cambria Math, Lucida Sans Unicode, Microsoft Sans Serif, Segoe UI Symbol, Arial Unicode MS, serif]Also interesting that Basques are closer to Anatolian Bronze Age than the North Italians.[/FONT]

[FONT=NexusSerif, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, STIXGeneral, Cambria Math, Lucida Sans Unicode, Microsoft Sans Serif, Segoe UI Symbol, Arial Unicode MS, serif]Log 4 and Log2 are quite different, as we can see from our own results, with Log 4 being closest to Scots and Lithuanians, and Log 2 being closest to Basques and Pais Vasco. Clearly that admixture probably didn't last too long.[/FONT]

[FONT=NexusSerif, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, STIXGeneral, Cambria Math, Lucida Sans Unicode, Microsoft Sans Serif, Segoe UI Symbol, Arial Unicode MS, serif]Of course, they didn't include all the regional Italian samples.[/FONT]

[FONT=NexusSerif, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, STIXGeneral, Cambria Math, Lucida Sans Unicode, Microsoft Sans Serif, Segoe UI Symbol, Arial Unicode MS, serif]Table 3 seems to indicate that Log 2 is about 39% MLBA steppe and 61% Kou 1, or 44% Europe LNBA plus the rest Kou 1. [/FONT]

[FONT=NexusSerif, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, STIXGeneral, Cambria Math, Lucida Sans Unicode, Microsoft Sans Serif, Segoe UI Symbol, Arial Unicode MS, serif]Log 4 is more steppe heavy, up to 56%.[/FONT]

[FONT=NexusSerif, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, STIXGeneral, Cambria Math, Lucida Sans Unicode, Microsoft Sans Serif, Segoe UI Symbol, Arial Unicode MS, serif]Their Mycenean figures are 21% and 36% Log 4. (Don't know why it was Log 4 types which made it to the Peloponnese. ) So, using their analysis, that would be 56% of 21 or 56% of 36, or 11.8 and 20%, which is generally in line with what Lazaridis found.

[/FONT]I'm disappointed that they seem to think because modern Greeks in a PCA land closer to Log 2 and Log 4 that there's been continuity since that time. They should know better.
 
There was one Ukrainian-like sample from Bulgaria (I think) during those times. I don't think those 2 samples are good represantives of northern Greece let alone the southern parts during the peak of the Mycenaean civilisation. They must be the unmixed proto-Greeks or the less mixed ones.
Northern Greece was pretty much like the Iron Age Thracian during the time of Alexander IMO.
There was even a Slavic Bulgarian-like sample in Early Medieval Central Europe but I wont take them very seriously either.
 
Last edited:
I have merged the two threads based on the same study.
 
kingjohn said:
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log02[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A7FF00, align: right"]4.90509939[/TD]
[TD]Albanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCFF00, align: right"]5.99123526[/TD]
[TD]Albanian_Kosovo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D4FF00, align: right"]6.24177058[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Romagna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D7FF00, align: right"]6.32433396[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DEFF00, align: right"]6.52834589[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thrace[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E3FF00, align: right"]6.66853807[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EDFF00, align: right"]6.97383682[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaloniki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EFFF00, align: right"]7.02855632[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FDFF00, align: right"]7.43986559[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_South[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEF00, align: right"]7.97242748[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEB00, align: right"]8.10203678[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_Vardar[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE600, align: right"]8.23196210[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDE00, align: right"]8.45814992[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Athens[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDB00, align: right"]8.56168792[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Central[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFCD00, align: right"]8.96979375[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Emilia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFCD00, align: right"]8.97196745[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian_Thrace[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFCB00, align: right"]9.02161848[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_East[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC400, align: right"]9.24909185[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB700, align: right"]9.62003638[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA900, align: right"]10.03277629[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_Polog[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA700, align: right"]10.09873259[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Makedonya[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA400, align: right"]10.18243095[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8E00, align: right"]10.81044402[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8E00, align: right"]10.83489732[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8D00, align: right"]10.85424341[/TD]
[TD]French_Corsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]



[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C0FF00, align: right"]5.64006206[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_Vardar[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D0FF00, align: right"]6.12159293[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_Polog[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DAFF00, align: right"]6.41073319[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Friuli_VG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DAFF00, align: right"]6.41352477[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_East[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E8FF00, align: right"]6.83537124[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_South[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F3FF00, align: right"]7.15973463[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F9FF00, align: right"]7.30935018[/TD]
[TD]Albanian_Kosovo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF800, align: right"]7.69858429[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEB00, align: right"]8.10115424[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEA00, align: right"]8.11762280[/TD]
[TD]Moldovan_Gagauz[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE000, align: right"]8.40295186[/TD]
[TD]Romanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDB00, align: right"]8.56334631[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian_West[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD800, align: right"]8.63729124[/TD]
[TD]Moldovan_South[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD800, align: right"]8.64762973[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD800, align: right"]8.65971131[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian_Central[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD600, align: right"]8.70143092[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian_East[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC100, align: right"]9.33067522[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC000, align: right"]9.34067985[/TD]
[TD]Montenegrin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBC00, align: right"]9.47814328[/TD]
[TD]Pomak_Bulgaria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBB00, align: right"]9.49851041[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Trentino[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB800, align: right"]9.58237444[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Emilia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB400, align: right"]9.70237600[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Makedonya[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFAC00, align: right"]9.92730578[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thrace[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFAB00, align: right"]9.98512394[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian_Thrace[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFAA00, align: right"]10.00701754[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...

Very, very interesting KingJohn. Thanks for providing that. Where was this sample from?

This early population seems to hint that Albanians and Greeks, and it seems Paeonians (If I understood this right, based on those Skopje samples) are related going as far back as MBA. Despite what some propagandists on this forum claim to be Middle Age mixing due to barbarious North Albanians into the South (cough* Parapolitikos cough*).
 
Archetype0ne said:
Very, very interesting KingJohn. Thanks for providing that. Where was this sample from?

This early population seems to hint that Albanians and Greeks, and it seems Paeonians (If I understood this right, based on those Skopje samples) are related going as far back as MBA. Despite what some propagandists on this forum claim to be Middle Age mixing due to barbarious North Albanians into the South (cough* Parapolitikos cough*).
Click to expand...


from the paper:
one EBA Helladic individual from the site of Manika on the island of Euboea (Mik15), one EBA Minoan from the site of Kephala Petras (the burial rock shelter) on the island of Crete (Pta08), two EBA Cycladic individuals from the island of Koufonisi (Kou01 and Kou03), and two MBA individuals from the site of Elati-Logkas in northern Greece (Log02 and Log04) (Figures 1A and S1)


yes it is interesting and pretty cool :cool-v:
and show significant continuity
( take in considiration that this distance are according to dodecad k12b calculator (dienekes calculator)
 
kingjohn said:
from the paper:
one EBA Helladic individual from the site of Manika on the island of Euboea (Mik15), one EBA Minoan from the site of Kephala Petras (the burial rock shelter) on the island of Crete (Pta08), two EBA Cycladic individuals from the island of Koufonisi (Kou01 and Kou03), and two MBA individuals from the site of Elati-Logkas in northern Greece (Log02 and Log04) (Figures 1A and S1)


yes it is interesting and pretty cool :cool-v:
and show significant continuity
( take in considiration that this distance are according to dodecad k12b calculator (dienekes calculator)
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot John.

Here is mine according to vahaduo, using k13.
XA0RIAw.png

5FsObBj.png

XA0RIAw

XA0RIAw

cc4Ss0e.png


Not awfully close. But given 4k years distance still surprising how close.

I suspect if I add the L283 from Maros or Dalmatia to the mix, with a two way calculation, that could be incredibly revealing.

Do we happen to have the autosomal data for those?
 
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