The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations.

[Alyan]

Thanks a lot for clarifying the conclusions of this paper. Very surprising to say at least, that the BA Northern Greek individual with high steppe admixture is darker than the Cretans . So, going by this paper BA Greeks could've been dark brown to black. Who'd have thought this? Anyway, Afrocentric cranks like Clyde Winters will have their field day since they argued for a long time that the original Greeks, Minoans and Mycenaeans were "black". It almost seems that fringe and crazy theories do have some elements of truth..

Not really since Greeks being darker skinned than West Euros is hardly news.

 

[Duarte]

Just as a collaboration, next I put my phenotype analyzed from my combination of SNPs, according reports from Tellmegen and YourDNAportal.
[TABLE="class: tabla-resultados tabla-resultados-informe-tecnico, width: 397"]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]rs1426654[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]AA[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs1426654(A;A)

[TABLE="class: tabla-resultados tabla-resultados-informe-tecnico, width: 397"]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]rs16891982[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]CG[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs16891982Oh

 

[MOESAN]

In that context olive complexion would make sense, since Europeans with that skin tone are often considered dark- skinned. However, intermediate is usually used for describing olive skin by researchers. The thing is the word "dark" can mean anything from light olive till very brown.

Agree. Question of vocabulary. for the most, by instance in France, when we say 'olive' colour skin we think rather mediterranean light skin in winter (compared to the allover variety of mondial shades); for other, it's rather an already 'brunet' skin, not middle bron, but darker. Ans so on... it would seem that the accumulation of SLC24A5+SLC45A2 produce at homozygoty level fairer skin, but it's hard to prove.
By the way, ***mentation is an element of identification among others; interesting concerning natural selection (when studied with caution) and history on a relatively short span of time in similar climates; In France hair ***mentation is one of diverse ones which seems showing Germanics inputs here and there, if not sufficient in itself of course!

 

[MOESAN]

yes
and anyway this result and overlapp is not something
nordicist would like
but we are not in battle here of med- nordic

Let's not wake them up, please. No noise!

 

[Philjames100]

Now, it shouldn't be surprising that SLC45A2 was not present in our one steppe admixed sample. The majority of the people of the Pontic Caspian Steppe did not have it

According to Mathieson 2015/2018 they did:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4918750/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6091220/

 

[MOESAN]

it could be that those aegeans were like
pete sampras i mean (in skin color) it is logic given the environment they were
living in

Here, they are tanned; I'm not even 'light olive' skinned in winter, but when full tanned, I'm brownish skinned, evidently!

 

[MOESAN]

Dark to black skin is a very surprising diagnostic, I think!

 

[Philjames100]

Dark to black skin is a very surprising diagnostic, I think!

also probably completely wrong.

 

[real expert]

Agree. Question of vocabulary. for the most, by instance in France, when we say 'olive' colour skin we think rather mediterranean light skin in winter (compared to the allover variety of mondial shades); for other, it's rather an already 'brunet' skin, not middle bron, but darker. Ans so on... it would seem that the accumulation of SLC24A5+SLC45A2 produce at homozygoty level fairer skin, but it's hard to prove.
By the way, ***mentation is an element of identification among others; interesting concerning natural selection (when studied with caution) and history on a relatively short span of time in similar climates; In France hair ***mentation is one of diverse ones which seems showing Germanics inputs here and there, if not sufficient in itself of course!

The thing is, that very dark to black can’t be translated into the typical Mediterranean olive, light brown or beige skin color. If the ancient Aegeans were largely of WHG instead of EEF/ANF extraction, I wouldn't be surprised that they apparently turned out be super dark. However, over the years in multiple scientific papers, geneticists were asserting that Anatolian farmers had introduced"light/fair skinned" allele into Europe. So, it was like WHGs= very dark to black, and Anatolian farmers= light skinned. Hence, I expect all kinds of surprises from all directions in upcoming studies about ancient DNA, and it won't be boring. By the way, I read on the internet, that Hirisplex updated their skin color predictor in 2018, for being more able to predict skin colour variation within West Eurasia, from brown to white.

 

[real expert]

also probably completely wrong.

I know it's totally unexpected. Although I always believed that ancient Aeagans were swarthy, I'd never ever imagined that they were that dark. That said, where do you get the confidence, that the predictor likely got it wrong? The data is the data. Anyway, it would be even more amusing and puzzling if the Northern Greek Log 4 who is the closest to Scots and Lithuanians would be also predicted as very dark to black.

 

[real expert]

also probably completely wrong.

doublepost

 

[Angela]

My Dodecad K12B results based on coordinates provided by Jovialis (post #74)

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Dodecadk12bStuvanè[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C2FF00, align: right"]5.70363919[/TD]
[TD]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log02[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFED00, align: right"]8.03052925[/TD]
[TD]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4700FF, align: right"]27.91290562[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Helladic_Manika:Mik15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.70116284[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]31.07440587[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Minoan_Petrasta08[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]31.79075495[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou01
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

2 way mode

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Dodecadk12bStuvanè[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #97FF00, align: right"]4.44805889[/TD]
[TD]65.20% MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log02 + 34.80% MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A2FF00, align: right"]4.75862217[/TD]
[TD]19.00% EBA_Helladic_Manika:Mik15 + 81.00% MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B4FF00, align: right"]5.28385242[/TD]
[TD]16.40% EBA_Minoan_Petrasta08 + 83.60% MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B9FF00, align: right"]5.43205124[/TD]
[TD]15.80% EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou01 + 84.20% MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CEFF00, align: right"]6.06659526[/TD]
[TD]14.80% EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou03 + 85.20% MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4800FF, align: right"]27.88157533[/TD]
[TD]9.40% EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou03 + 90.60% EBA_Helladic_Manika:Mik15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.66569933[/TD]
[TD]22.80% EBA_Minoan_Petrasta08 + 77.20% EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou03
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

There's that east/west Italian thing again.

 

[Angela]

According to Mathieson 2015/2018 they did:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4918750/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6091220/

Mathiesen always makes a mess of his charts. He did it with WHG ***mentation in the first paper. He had one grouping for European HG and he included in it the SHG samples, so of course it looked as if European HGs had lighter skin. YOU CAN'T DO THAT. You have to have a grouping for WHG and one for SHG, and one for EHG. They were all different.

I don't know if it's just carelessness and stupidity, which I wouldn't at all doubt given the quality of his analysis, or he's a secret Nordicist. I certainly wouldn't be surprised by the latter either. He's not a straight shooter at all.

As for this paper, I don't have time to go back and analyze the paper again, but I think he once again mixed samples of different areas and time periods. I don't remember the precise details, but you can't, for example, include LN/EBA on the Pontic Caspian steppe with samples from the far eastern steppe from much later who picked up de***mentation alleles from central European farmers. You also can't include forest steppe mostly EHG people with the obviously admixed steppe people with more than 40% Iran Neo/CHG. Those groups, especially if they went onto the steppe very early, would NOT have SLC45A2.

You have to be very careful with Mathiesen in general, as with this paper. You have to check the area and date for all his included samples. If it's from later periods or further north they'll have picked up de***mentation snps from Central and northern Europe.

Just think about it. Do you think it makes sense that people who were 40+ percent Iran Neo or CHG like would have SLC45A2 in high numbers? We have to use our common sense, as well as watch what some of these "experts" very carefully, especially if, like Mathiesen, they're known for "questionable" charts, to be charitable.

Take a look at the Wilde paper. Those are the Catacomb people if I remember correctly, who are probably, imo, the ones who went to Greece.

 

[Angela]

I know it's totally unexpected. Although I always believed that ancient Aeagans were swarthy, I'd never ever imagined that they were that dark. That said, where do you get the confidence, that the predictor likely got it wrong? The data is the data. Anyway, it would be even more amusing and puzzling if the Northern Greek Log 4 who is the closest to Scots and Lithuanians would be also predicted as very dark to black.

I think there may very well be a mistake somewhere where the alleles were not labeled correctly as to whether they are ancestral or derived, or may have been input incorrectly. I think the authors should be contacted.

However, those categories or labels are from an American company, from an American context, and are meant to aid the FBI and local police as to the appearance of a suspect. If you go back and look at the painting of the elite Mycenaean warrior, to an American police officer that man would be dark. A lot of African Americans, due to a lot of European admixture (20-25%), do not look like people from Nigeria. However, a very tanned "white" American can sometimes approximate the skin tone of some African Americans.

Now, as I said, I thought some of that was a tan, but maybe not.

One thing that has to be kept in mind is that the Greeks of the Classical Era were very aware of their own ***mentation in reference to Eastern Europeans and Egyptians, who at the time did not have much SSA, and so might have looked like Saudis. They said they weren't as fair as the Northern and Eastern "Barbarians", nor as dark as the Egyptians, and therefore had the "perfect" skin tone.

Also, I can tell you that I personally know people who have what you might call "olive" Mediterranean skin, i.e. relatively light if "sallow" in winter, and tanning very dark in summer. They usually have two derived alleles for SLC 24A5, and are heterogeneous for the alleles for SLC45A2.

People just have to get over the idea that Europeans in the ancient past looked like modern Europeans. Selection for "fairness" is still going on, as is selection for LP.

 

[real expert]

Mathiesen always makes a mess of his charts. He did it with WHG ***mentation in the first paper. He had one grouping for European HG and he included in it the SHG samples, so of course it looked as if European HGs had lighter skin. YOU CAN'T DO THAT. You have to have a grouping for WHG and one for SHG, and one for EHG. They were all different.

I don't know if it's just carelessness and stupidity, which I wouldn't at all doubt given the quality of his analysis, or he's a secret Nordicist. I certainly wouldn't be surprised by the latter either. He's not a straight shooter at all.

As for this paper, I don't have time to go back and analyze the paper again, but I think he once again mixed samples of different areas and time periods. I don't remember the precise details, but you can't, for example, include LN/EBA on the Pontic Caspian steppe with samples from the far eastern steppe from much later who picked up de***mentation alleles from central European farmers. You also can't include forest steppe mostly EHG people with the obviously admixed steppe people with more than 40% Iran Neo/CHG. Those groups, especially if they went onto the steppe very early, would NOT have SLC45A2.

You have to be very careful with Mathiesen in general, as with this paper. You have to check the area and date for all his included samples. If it's from later periods or further north they'll have picked up de***mentation snps from Central and northern Europe.

Just think about it. Do you think it makes sense that people who were 40+ percent Iran Neo or CHG like would have SLC45A2 in high numbers? We have to use our common sense, as well as watch what some of these "experts" very carefully, especially if, like Mathiesen, they're known for "questionable" charts, to be charitable.

Take a look at the Wilde paper. Those are the Catacomb people if I remember correctly, who are probably, imo, the ones who went to Greece.

One would think that researchers would try their best to avoid flawed methodology and misleading conclusions. Whatever.
After analysing this Aegean paper do you think their phenotype prediction is absolutely legit and truth worthy or do you have some reservations?

 

[kingdavid]

I know it's totally unexpected. Although I always believed that ancient Aeagans were swarthy, I'd never ever imagined that they were that dark. That said, where do you get the confidence, that the predictor likely got it wrong? The data is the data. Anyway, it would be even more amusing and puzzling if the Northern Greek Log 4 who is the closest to Scots and Lithuanians would be also predicted as very dark to black.

In k12b Log4 cluster with slav macedonians
If in the paper he cluster with scots that means
K12b calculator of dienekes is also way of....

 

[iluvatar]

In k12b Log4 cluster with slav macedonians
If in the paper he cluster with scots that means
K12b calculator of dienekes is also way of....

Log4 doesn’t cluster anywhere near Scotts, she clearly clusters near south Balkan populations (even if, and to some extent definitely because of coincidence)

F3 stats dont measure overall similarity. Notice how Anatolia bronze age is mostly similar to Sardinians going by their f3 chart, but on any pca bronze age Anatolians will cluster far away from them and closer to populations like Cypriots. Same with the Myceneans, it's just that both populations have Anatolia Neolithic as their predominant component.

 

[Angela]

One would think that researchers would try their best to avoid flawed methodology and misleading conclusions. Whatever.
After analysing this Aegean paper do you think their phenotype prediction is absolutely legit and truth worthy or do you have some reservations?

As I said in post 130 there may be a mistake somewhere in recording whether an allele was ancestral or derived and whether all the data was input into Hirisplex S correctly. The authors should be contacted in as respectful a manner as possible, of course. It just takes one careless mistake.

So, I'm keeping an open mind.

However, if it was all done correctly, you can go to page 17 of the site for Hirisplex 6 to see the examples of the skin tones for each of their categories. Dark is not very dark imo, so maybe that's correct, but I have a hard time believing the "very dark" category, even though that's also not that dark in the sample. The table in the supplement has all the values, so I suppose someone could run them; that would tell us at least whether the values were input correctly.

Btw, this, imo, is a man with an olive Mediterranean skin in winter. It's "white" skin with a greenish undertone. The following pictures are him in summer.

Various shades of tan:

This is my husband's complexion, and how deeply he can tan, while I huddle under an umbrella and can still wind up with skin poisoning. The only important thing about skin ***mentation is whether you're adapted to your climate. I seem to be adapted for very northern latitudes or high atop some mountains; I just don't like them.

 

[Archetype0ne]

There's that east/west Italian thing again.

Angela do you happen to know why K12b places me closer then K13 with the same input data so to speak?

vs

 

[Archetype0ne]

As I said in post 130 there may be a mistake somewhere in recording whether an allele was ancestral or derived and whether all the data was input into Hirisplex S correctly. The authors should be contacted in as respectful a manner as possible, of course. It just takes one careless mistake.

So, I'm keeping an open mind.

However, if it was all done correctly, you can go to page 17 of the site for Hirisplex 6 to see the examples of the skin tones for each of their categories. Dark is not very dark imo, so maybe that's correct, but I have a hard time believing the "very dark" category, even though that's also not that dark in the sample. The table in the supplement has all the values, so I suppose someone could run them; that would tell us at least whether the values were input correctly.

Btw, this, imo, is a man with an olive Mediterranean skin in winter. It's "white" skin with a greenish undertone. The following pictures are him in summer.

Various shades of tan:

This is my husband's complexion, and how deeply he can tan, while I huddle under an umbrella and can still wind up with skin poisoning. The only important thing about skin ***mentation is whether you're adapted to your climate. I seem to be adapted for very northern latitudes or high atop some mountains; I just don't like them.

As someone earlier mentioned... It looks like a tanning thing. In the first picture he could pass in GB, in the third in Portugal (judging by the close/background he has been tanning).

Have noticed this a lot with some instagram friends from Sweden. During the summer they get that golden bronze complexion. Given that today we have sunscreen maybe that helps not get the sunburn red rash.