To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

[Riverman]

Per Anthrogenica post, Fox informed Pribislav that the Danubian paper(from July 2021) was being revised(as of July 2022 to include more data). By the sound of it, they were only months away from submitting it to a journal and we might see it this year. This also explains why the Mokrin paper is stuck in preprint despite being introduced in 2020.


This is my revised haplogroup prediction that will come from the revised paper.

Iron Age Serbia:

7 E-V13
0 J2b-L283
2 J2a
2 R-Z2103
2-3 R-M269
2 R-xM269
1 G2a
2 R-L51
1 I1
1 R1a-Z93
1 I2-L621
3 other

Bronze Age Serbia:

1 E-V13
1 J2b-L283 (Mokrin)
13 R-Z2103 (including 4 from Mokrin)
11 R-M269
0 R1b(xM269)
1 R-L51 (Mokrin)
9 J2a
0 G2a

Other haplogroups I did not look into. G2a tally looks out of wack, but they are excluding the Vucedol ones, considering them neolithic, including BA Greece, but excluding Minoan. It's the only way the math works.

From this I conclude that Z-2103 was mixed in Mokrin, and mixed in Bubanj with J2a, while in-between was a more purer reservoir for Z-2103.

The E-V13 is probably LBA, Belegis II, hard to know without any context given for the samples. We will just have to wait for the data.

Bruzmi did mention the efforts to explore the LBA-EIA transition, the 1.200 years event, which is crucial for the debate. Some of the samples might come from Gomolova, which is a Kalakaca/Bosut context. There 77-78 human remains from a mass burial and those should yield some E-V13 if being analyised. I wrote about similar pits on AG in this context and its clearly connected to the Belegis II-G?va/Kalakaca/Bosut-Basarabi context.
Its mass grave character makes it suspicious, but similar ones appeared in other G?va and Belegis II-G?va into Kalakaca and Bosut-Basarabi territories in the EIA.

 

[Riverman]

Regardless of the number of samples which were included in the initial Lalueza-Fox database, there are additional datasets which will be published as part of The Fall of 1200 BCE project.

One such bioarchaeological study is

CONTESTED SPACES: A RE-INTERPRETATION OF THE EARLY IRON AGE MASS GRAVE FROM GOMOLAVA, SERBIA
Linda Fibiger1, Jovan Koledin2, Barry Molloy3
1 School of History, Classics & Archaeology, University of Edinburgh
2 Museum of Vojvodina, Novi Sad
3 UCD School of Archaeology, University College Dublin

Such irregular burials are always a difficult issue, but that's definitely a highly interesting site. I just quoted before:

Some of the early inhumation graves are mass graves, probably of victims of war or a plague. The same has been observed close to some fortified settlements in the Central Balkans - definitely no regular burials:

Regarding the collective grave at Suceava, investigated in 1971, Ion T. Dragomir said
that in the pit were found four human skeletons in an unusual position,which, at first glance,
gives the impression that the dead were thrown into the pit and fall randomly13, and includes
the in the Suceava tomb in the Basarabi phenomenon, with similarities to the collective graves
from Gomolova (Serbia) and Salacea, Bihor County.

http://phdthesis.uaic.ro/PhDThesis/...ning of the Iron Age in Southern Moldavia.pdf

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...ve-been-Dacian&p=906870&viewfull=1#post906870

Its part of a broader phenomenon:

Between 2009 and 2011, three Late Bronze Age / Early Iron Age settlement pits, containing large
amounts of human remains in different states of decomposition, were unearthed at the site Pusztataskony-
Ledence 1 (Eastern Hungary). The deposits contained both single bones and clear crania, complete skel-
etons and body parts in approximate anatomical order. Associated finds ? with a potsherd of the Kalakača
culture amongst them ? were sporadic and fragmented.

The layers are also interesting, because it shows once again, that the Western side of the Tisza river was more clearly Tumulus culture dominated, G?va came later on top of it from the East:

The Late Bronze Age is represented by abundant
remains of a settlement of the Late Tumulus Culture
(from Reinecke B2?B2 / C1) and that of the Early
G?va Culture (to Reinecke BD / Ha A1, maybe later)
as well. Amongst these, scarce traces of the Early
Iron Age (Reinecke Ha B2 / C1) were also detected
during the excavation, which, with hindsight, may
be interpreted as marks of a small but probably in-
dependent settlement horizon

Taxonomic comparison of the people of the Pusz-
tataskony pits and the territorial predecessors (the
population of the G?va culture) is not possible as
there are only a few skeleton burials known from
the G?va culture, leaving its general taxonomic im-
age unclear. However, by extending the search for
materials to include in the taxonomic comparison, it
is possible to find convincing archaeological analo-
gies far afield, roughly 300 km to the south, in sites
from Voivodina (Northern Serbia) of the Kalakača
horizon of the Bosut Culture (Bosut IIIa, Reinecke
Ha B2 / B3?C1), which are contemporaneous with
the Pusztataskony features. Regrettably, the pit of
Novi Sad-ADECO is nearly completely and anoth-
er at Novi Sad-Klisa is partly ruined5, and the an-
thropological material of the first mass grave from
Hrtkovci-Gomolava (Syrmia) was not retained. The
greatest mass grave of the Kalakača horizon is that
of Hrtkovci-Gomolava II6 (see descriptions below).
The condition of the anthropological material from
the burials of Vajuga-Pesak at the Iron Gates, a site
representing the next horizon of the Bosut culture is
so poor that it did not fit either for craniometric or
for taxonomic analysis7.

The Early Iron Age com-
munity is not only related to the Maros-Perj?mos
cemeteries of the Great Hungarian Plain, which by
Penrose results seem to form a closed block (fig. 6),
but to the population of the mass grave of Hrtkovci-
Gomolava II, i.e. the Kalakača horizon of the Bosut
culture of Syrmia as well (though the separate fe-
male series does not show this connection).

At first sight in 2009, the then-unique feature 2-011
at Pusztataskony seemed to contain victims of a
mass slaughter or an epidemic that eradicated the
population of a nearby homestead. One imagined a
group of people (maybe members of a nearby com-
munity) finding the cadavers few weeks or months
later and giving final honour to the deceased by in-
terring them in a large pit that was open at the time.
But as the anthropological survey progressed, the
emerging evidence forced our team to seek an alter-
native explanation. Aware of that, the excavation of
the second and third features in 2011 focused on the
deposition sequence and the possibilities of recon-
structing the treatment of the cadavers and revealing
the primary context of the human remains.

Though many of the observed features have their
parallels in several sites of prehistoric Europe, the
combination in which these appear in the Pusz-
tataskony deposits is virtually unique. In order to
completely understand such an unprecedented find
it would be essential to examine these features both
in their regional and chronological context. Such a
survey would by far exceed the limits of this paper,
therefore, in the present, first discussion we focus
only on the culturally related assemblages.
During a preventive archaeological excavation
in 2006 a Late Bronze Age settlement with six
pits, containing the skeletal remains of partly de-
composed human cadavers (four single or double
?burials? and two mass deposits) was found only
30 km south of Pusztataskony, at the site of Tiszabő,
Galamb-dűlő, J?sz-Nagykun-Szolnok county, Hun-
gary25. The settlement was dated to the G?va culture
by H. Oravecz, but fragments of a horn-handled cup
from one of the mass graves26 may suggest an Early
Iron Age presence as well.

The
greatest deposits of this period are known from
Hrtkovci-Gomolava II (Syrmia)27. The first pit was
discovered in 1954. By then it was partially de-
stroyed by erosion, but the remaining part still cov-
ered an area of 2,42 ? 1,37 m. It contained the skel-
etons of 32 individuals in four layers, the fragments
of 24 vessels, a few bronze and iron implements and
three fragmented querns or grindstones28. Unfortu-
nately, a detailed publication of the feature has still
not yet been released, and, what is even more re-
grettable, the human remains from the deposit were
not retained by the excavators29. The second, circu-
lar pit of the same site with a maximum diameter
of 2,90 m was excavated in 1971 and contained the
remains of 78 individuals of both sexes and all age
ranges, in different states of disintegration, divided
into three hypothetical layers. The first bone layer
consisted of individual crania, some single bones
and articulated body parts, mixed with fragments of
grindstones and parts of the skeleton of an ox. Com-
plete skeletons were placed along the periphery of
the pit.

Significant data proving a direct relationship be-
tween the Late Bronze Age / Early Iron Age popula-
tion of the Middle Tisza Region and the contem-
poraneous groups of South-Eastern Europe has not
yet been published. In this light the finds of Pusz-
tataskony may be considered rather important, as in
their case the above-mentioned two groups do not
only seem to have a common practice of deposit-
ing human remains in round pits, but a fragment of
an original, probably imported Kalakača vessel also
showed up in feature 1-55040.

In order to shed some light on this yet unclear situ-
ation, it is necessary to survey the funerary prac-
tices of the Late Bronze and Early Iron Ages in the
eastern part of the Carpathian Basin. As a result of
the large-scale excavations in the last two decades,
more and more human remains are known from
non-funerary, mainly settlement contexts from our
focus period and territory. With the difficulties of
the cultural classification even of some ?regular?
burials, and in absence of a proper relative chro-
nology for that period, a reasonable analysis of the
?irregular? finds cannot be carried out for the mo-
ment. At the present state of research one can only
assert that the number of settlement complexes with
human remains definitely increases41 with a simul-
taneous decline in the number of ?normative? or tra-
ditional burials42.

It is important to note that at the beginning of the
1990s J. Chochorowski linked the features found at the
Bosut culture settlement of Hrtkovci-Gomolava (ZOFF-
MANN 1997) and at the Late Urnfield settlement of Still-
fried in Austria (BREITINGER 1980, 107; EIBNER 1980,
107; EIBNER 1988, 77; SZILV?SSY et al. 1988; ZOFFMANN
2001; see also Griebl / Hellerschmid in this volume) to a
hypothetical horizon dominated by violent attacks of the
so-called Cimmerians (CHOCHOROWSKI 1993, 218?230).
According to his thesis, the arrival of the steppe-people
terminated the development of the former Late Bronze
Age cultures. A very similar picture was drawn by G.
Ilon as a result of the analysis of some skeletons from a
pit of the Late Urnfield settlement of G?r-K?polnadomb
in Hungary (ILON 2001, 248 f.; anthropological analy-
sis by Zs. K. Zoffmann: ZOFFMANN 2001, 270; ZOFF-
MANN 2006b, 156). C. Metzner-Nebelsick argued that
the mass graves in question ?can also be seen as signs
of internal conflict, since no significantly ?Cimmerian?
or steppe bound artefacts can be associated with them?
(METZNER-NEBELSICK 2010, 128 note 28). The presence
of violent action was only proved in the case of the out-
standing mass grave of Stillfried (CHOCHOROWSKI 1993,
219?221; WILTSCHKE-SCHROTTA 2006, 414).

To me its clear that its about hastily burying larger numbers of dead, probably because a proper burial couldn't have been done in time. Just like hoards, its even possible that the initial survivors, which did these mass graves, were not able to come back to fulfil their duty and burn the dead according to their traditional rite. This might even have caused some changes in customs in general or the like. But all of this is speculation. Still, the parallels to the North are there:

Human remains within Late Bronze and Early
Iron Age settlements usually turn up in different
states of decay, as complete skeletons, skeletal re-
mains of articulated bodies or body parts, single and
fragmented bones and cremated remains. In the case
of the G?va culture the sequence is clearly dominat-
ed by complete skeletons (almost 40 %) of both sex-
es and all age ranges, and the position of the bodies
often shows signs of intentional placing43. None of
the examined bones shows either traces of violence
or taphonomic lesions44, which means that these
people, just like the ones at Pusztataskony, most
likely suffered a natural death, and their bodies were
immediately buried or at least protected against the
weather and kept out of the reach of carrion eaters.
Exactly the same situation was sketched out
for the Early Iron Age of the Balkan area by S. C.
Ailincăi and his colleagues45. Considering their re-
sults it is likely, that ? beginning at the latest phase
of the Bronze Age of the Eastern Carpathian Basin
and its southern neighbourhood ? a radical change
takes place in mortuary treatment, while a sporadic
survival of traditional burial customs is still observ-
able. The new practice involves at least a temporary
putrefaction of the dead in settlement complexes. It
still remains a question however, whether this ele-
ment is really a part of the funerary cycle or only
a random way of disposing of particular members
of the same, or maybe of a different (hostile) com-
munity.

The main influences being Late G?va, Kalakaca and Basarabi, so the three layers of development during the LBA-EIA period for the Thracian sphere. Kalakaca is somewhat of a mystery though, between G?va and Basarabi in the region, even though there are some signs for fluent transitions - but this too needs to clarified.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309196019_Early_Iron_Age_%27Mass_Graves%27_in_the_Middle_Tisza_Region_Investigation_and_Interpretation

[url]https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?26198-Why-a-large-portion-of-E-V13-in-the-Iron-Age-might-have-been-Dacian&p=906900&viewfull=1#post906900
[/URL]

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Bruzmi did mention the efforts to explore the LBA-EIA transition, the 1.200 years event, which is crucial for the debate. Some of the samples might come from Gomolova, which is a Kalakaca/Bosut context. There 77-78 human remains from a mass burial and those should yield some E-V13 if being analyised. I wrote about similar pits on AG in this context and its clearly connected to the Belegis II-G�va/Kalakaca/Bosut-Basarabi context.
Its mass grave character makes it suspicious, but similar ones appeared in other G�va and Belegis II-G�va into Kalakaca and Bosut-Basarabi territories in the EIA.

Could very well be those, there are about 58 slots available if Bulgaria and Romania are excluded from the graph (and they likely are because I2-436 math is completely off). Personally I hope the Gomolova samples are separate and part of a different study, because it is an over focus on a single site who seem to be a dead end tribe that was massacred.

I am also hopeful the Fox team is not pausing anymore and considering adding more samples, that leads to a paper never getting published like the Thracian project that keeps on expanding.

 

[eupator]

From this I conclude that Z-2103 was mixed in Mokrin, and mixed in Bubanj with J2a, while in-between was a more purer reservoir for Z-2103.

Firstly, thank you for the heads up.

Secondly, do you, by any chance, have any info on further downstreams to Z2013, being present?

Are they all Z2106/Z2108 or is there a L584 in there?

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Firstly, thank you for the heads up.

Secondly, do you, by any chance, have any info on further downstreams to Z2013, being present?

Are they all Z2106/Z2108 or is there a L584 in there?

I have zero insight, I am only able to back into what's new based on the presentation Carles Lalueza-Fox gave in Serbia in summertime last year. (watch here https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...an-case/page38?p=665215&viewfull=1#post665215)

There are zero leaks other than what they revealed indirectly through their presentation. The samples are not entirely from Serbia, they include southern Arc, pre-southern Arc., including two Serbian papers that became frozen in peer review (Danube Frotier and Mokrin). I don't believe the slides include Skourtanis, because G2a, J2a and J2b would be inflated beyond the ratios given. And I believe they are excluding samples from Bulgaria and Romania in the presentation. However since then, they might have gone back and made the paper more inclusive, which will not change the numbers I am backing into. There will be new samples from Serbia that have not been leaked or disclosed so far. Bronze Age and Iron Age.

 

[J Man]

Per Anthrogenica post, Fox informed Pribislav that the Danubian paper(from July 2021) was being revised(as of July 2022 to include more data). By the sound of it, they were only months away from submitting it to a journal and we might see it this year. This also explains why the Mokrin paper is stuck in preprint despite being introduced in 2020.


This is my revised haplogroup prediction that will come from the revised paper.

Iron Age Serbia:

7 E-V13
0 J2b-L283
2 J2a
2 R-Z2103
2-3 R-M269
2 R-xM269
1 G2a
2 R-L51
1 I1
1 R1a-Z93
1 I2-L621
3 other

Bronze Age Serbia:

1 E-V13
1 J2b-L283 (Mokrin)
13 R-Z2103 (includes 4 from Mokrin)
11 R-M269
0 R1b(xM269)
1 R-L51 (Mokrin)
9 J2a
0 G2a
2 I-L621
2 R1a-Z283
2 R1a-Z93
2 I2-M436 (Mokrin and Iron Gates)
1 R1b (xM269)

and about 13 other, 4 of these are I2(M423) from Mokrin, and 2 of these are BT, also from Mokrin. That leaves 7 unknown haplogroups.

Other haplogroups I did not look into. G2a tally looks out of wack, but they are excluding the Vucedol ones, considering them neolithic, including BA Greece, but excluding Minoan. It's the only way the math works.

From this I conclude that Z-2103 was mixed in Mokrin, and mixed in Bubanj with J2a, while in-between was a more purer reservoir for Z-2103.

The E-V13 is probably LBA, Belegis II, hard to know without any context given for the samples. We will just have to wait for the data.

Interesting.....What makes you think think that Bronze Age Serbian sites will yield so much J2a?

Fox told me that the original Y-DNA bar graph includes samples from Greece as well.

Sent from my SM-A505W using Tapatalk

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Interesting.....What makes you think think that Bronze Age Serbian sites will yield so much J2a?

Fox told me that the original Y-DNA bar graph includes samples from Greece as well.

Sent from my SM-A505W using Tapatalk

The number of J2a from Greece (excluding Minoan) is only 3(J2a confirmed, basal belongs in other category), this is pre-Skourtaniotietal data that I was able to find. And there are 12 J2a in his graph, so 9 are additions. I am assuming the new data is from Serbia. The more interesting question to ask Fox, would be if the paper will have any new additional samples from BA and IA Serbia and if he is at liberty to share the total sample size for these two periods, in regards to Serbia.

These are the haplogroup totals in the charts btw.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Firstly, thank you for the heads up.

Secondly, do you, by any chance, have any info on further downstreams to Z2013, being present?

Are they all Z2106/Z2108 or is there a L584 in there?

You probably missunderstood that quote as I didn't word it right. In Mokrin R-Z2103 was mixed with a I2 population (this is already known from the 2020 pre-print paper), I am assuming that in southern Serbia (Bubanj-Hum culture), R-Z2103 is mixed with J2a, and in-between these two regions an actual Yamnaya reservoir of mostly R-Z2103 (Vatin culture).

I didn't mean to say J2a will be in both Mokrin and Bubanj.

 

[Hawk]

I have taken Aspar's model:

[COLOR=#484848]GRC_Mycenaean,0.107847,0.1563915,-0.008108,-0.0646808,0.0216962,-0.0271222,-0.0005288,-0.0021345,0.00542,0.047336,0.005521,0.0169352,-0.012785,-0.0006195,-0.0163882,-0.0098118,0.0210245,0.0036108,0.0123188,-0.0039705,-0.0058648,0.0001858,-0.0065935,0.0011448,-0.0007185[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#484848]HUN_LBA_Halva,0.133173,0.136081,0.065242,0.049096, 0.048932,0.013387,0.003055,0.006231,0.009408,0.008 018,-0.003085,-0.005245,0.000446,0.006193,-0.006922,0.016839,0.024773,-0.004054,-0.007165,0.013381,0.005241,0.001237,0.000863,-0.012893,-0.00934[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#484848]ROU_Arman_BA,0.1252053,0.1472515,0.0463228,0.00581 4,0.0559592,-0.0036255,-0.0031335,0.0084998,0.0239633,0.0300992,-0.0018403,0.0049205,-0.0080028,-0.0009173,-0.0077815,0.0099442,0.0164718,-0.0016468,0.0010262,0.0066695,0.0059688,0.0090265,-0.0045397,-0.027293,0.0002795[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#484848]HUN_LBA,0.1295687,0.1465745,0.0582652,0.0313848,0. 0514455,0.0066005,0.0054835,0.0035767,0.0153053,0. 0163103,-0.0030583,-0.0003993,-0.0022547,0.0008715,-0.0022168,0.0081542,0.008714,0.0011192,0.0031423,0 .0030222,-0.0006862,0.0045958,-0.0040467,-0.0092982,-0.0029538[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#484848]SRB_BA,0.124921,0.1462362,0.0350722,0.0002422,0.03 76993,-0.0041835,0.0019975,0.00225,0.011811,0.0282922,0.0 010555,0.0034098,-0.0098488,0.0009978,-0.010281,-0.0025192,0.0072362,0.0010135,0.0054372,-0.0041583,-0.0004678,0.0017315,-0.0004005,-0.008435,-0.0041012[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#484848]SRB_IA,0.12862,0.138112,0.031301,-0.005814,0.025235,-0.000279,0.00564,0.002538,0.001841,0.011663,-0.001624,0.007044,-0.007136,-0.001239,-0.004207,-0.002652,0.002868,0,0.004399,-0.000625,0.002745,0.007048,0.012941,0.001928,-0.006227[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#484848]BGR_MLBA,0.125205,0.103584,0.050911,0.082688,0.002 77,0.031794,-0.00094,0.004846,-0.025361,-0.035718,-0.005846,-0.000599,-0.005203,-0.023671,0.029316,0.021082,0.009518,-0.001014,-0.001885,0.002501,-0.000749,-0.001607,0.005546,0.011086,0.000599[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#484848]MDA_Cimmerian,0.1001643,-0.0111707,0.042992,0.048127,-0.0266713,0.0068793,0.004465,0.0027693,-0.019975,-0.0287933,-0.007199,-0.0011993,-0.000545,-0.0191297,0.0218057,0.006983,-0.0022163,0.007137,-0.0010893,-0.0045857,-0.0117293,0.004287,-0.0002053,0.010363,-0.0017563[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#484848]MDA_CrihanaVeche_BA,0.1263435,0.108154,0.056568,0. 093347,-0.007386,0.0333275,0.00235,-0.0020765,-0.032417,-0.042643,0.0023545,0.001274,-0.000669,-0.018235,0.0278905,0.007425,-0.005476,-0.006271,0.0017595,0.00494,0.000437,0.004575,0.009 305,0.0042775,-0.001796[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#484848]MDA_MultiCordonedWare_MBA,0.126913,0.097491,0.0531 74,0.093993,-0.0007695,0.034164,-0.00141,0.005769,-0.0318035,-0.0475635,-0.005927,0,-0.003345,-0.017822,0.0277545,0.013524,-0.0063235,-0.007095,-0.003645,0.008942,-0.0016845,0.0001235,6.15e-05,0.0096395,0.0020955[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#484848]MDA_Sabatinovka_LBA,0.126344,0.110693,0.059962,0.0 85918,-0.004924,0.034861,0.00846,0.009,-0.025975,-0.04647,0.005196,-0.001798,-0.004608,-0.018717,0.025651,0.010872,-0.009909,-0.002027,0.005908,0.000125,0.004492,0.00136,-0.002342,0.013014,0.00012[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#484848]ROU_Trestiana_BA,0.124067,0.100537,0.047517,0.1062 68,0.009232,0.032351,0.00094,0.003461,-0.035792,-0.042825,0.001949,0.007943,0.00223,-0.027387,0.02918,0.018828,0.005085,-0.001394,-0.001006,0.02001,-0.006364,0.005193,0.001849,0.001807,-0.013532[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#484848]BGR_C,0.121411,0.1750097,0.007794,-0.0857027,0.045547,-0.0393237,-0.0033683,0.0023847,0.0329283,0.0727123,0.0012993, 0.013188,-0.022299,-0.0008257,-0.0297683,-0.013878,0.0076493,0.000929,0.008338,-0.0140483,-0.0114383,0.0042453,0.004314,-0.0021687,-0.0045503[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#484848]BGR_KapitanAndreevo_EMBA,0.125205,0.144205,0.00301 7,-0.001292,0.00677,0,-0.00376,-0.006923,-0.011249,0.001093,0.002761,0.005695,-0.012636,-0.003165,0.000679,-0.005967,0.005998,0.00114,-0.004777,0.004377,-0.001373,0.010881,0.008011,0.003735,-0.003233[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#484848]TUR_Aegean_Izmir_Yassitepe_MBA,0.112685,0.171624,-0.018479,-0.080104,0.005847,-0.030399,0.002585,-0.006692,0.005318,0.041914,-0.002761,0.001649,-0.014717,0.001514,-0.02443,0.002784,0.011474,-0.002914,0.01433,-0.00963,-0.015098,-0.000371,0.001602,0.003133,-0.002634[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#484848]HUN_MBA_Fuzesabony,0.1252055,0.132019,0.064488,0.0 615315,0.030467,0.026913,0.0094,0.0089995,0.008181 ,-0.0120275,-0.002111,-0.0039715,0.0053515,0.004473,0.0090255,0.0088835,0 .000913,-0.0017735,0.0010055,0.008879,0.008111,0.0026585,0. 004683,-0.0074705,-0.002694[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#484848]HRV_Jag_MBA,0.1242297,0.143625,0.0679356,0.0359453 ,0.0617696,0.0105183,0.0032229,0.0108786,0.0213873 ,0.0144487,-0.0022271,-0.0040037,0.0050543,0.0107543,-0.0123894,-0.0005491,0.0063143,0.0037646,0.0043456,0.0046809, 0.008895,0.0020316,-0.0049476,-0.0252531,-0.0022069[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#484848]HUN_EIA_Prescythian_Mezocsat,0.1274818,0.143596,0. 0500816,0.0178942,0.042777,0.0041274,0.0039012,0.0 025386,0.0114126,0.0141782,0.0027608,0.003417,-0.0051734,0.00011,-0.0040172,0.0001326,-0.0016688,0.0010642,0.0028658,-0.0011256,-0.0023708,0.001385,-0.0027116,-0.0100734,-0.0007424[/COLOR]

and run the Kapitan Andreevo samples:

Target: BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20186 Distance: 2.4676% / 0.02467551
46.0	BGR_C
22.8	TUR_Aegean_Izmir_Yassitepe_MBA
12.4	HUN_EIA_Prescythian_Mezocsat
10.4	GRC_Mycenaean
4.8	MDA_Cimmerian
3.6	SRB_IA

Target: BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20185 Distance: 2.2813% / 0.02281291
38.4	BGR_C
35.4	GRC_Mycenaean
17.4	SRB_BA
8.6	SRB_IA
0.2	HUN_LBA_Halva

Target: BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20184 Distance: 2.5674% / 0.02567413
54.6	BGR_C
18.6	BGR_KapitanAndreevo_EMBA
10.4	GRC_Mycenaean
10.4	TUR_Aegean_Izmir_Yassitepe_MBA
6.0	HUN_EIA_Prescythian_Mezocsat

They do lean to BGR_Chalcolithic but not a definite association, because the model works whatever you feed to it. And, if we add some slightly more western Neolithic group let's say like Hungarian Vinca:

Tisza_Neolithic:HUN_Tiszapolgar_ECA:I2395,0.127482,0.185842,0.035449,-0.069445,0.055087,-0.015618,-0.001645,0.004615,0.060744,0.079273,0.002923,0.019033,-0.011596,0.014175,-0.047638,-0.002254,0.021905,-0.001014,0.008925,-0.023886,-0.005116,0.009027,-0.008504,-0.016267,-0.000838
Tisza_Neolithic:HUN_Tiszapolgar_ECA:I2354,0.125205,0.174671,0.028284,-0.063308,0.064627,-0.038766,-0.006345,0.004615,0.052972,0.081642,0.014453,0.016635,-0.023786,0.000826,-0.023615,-0.012331,0.000652,0.008995,0.013701,-0.01038,-0.015223,0.004204,-0.001109,-0.007471,-0.000239
Vinca:HUN_Vinca_MN:I1887,0.117238,0.182795,-0.003017,-0.094962,0.061242,-0.037371,0.002115,0.003231,0.042745,0.080002,0.012504,0.013938,-0.019029,-0.001651,-0.03773,-0.038318,0.002477,0.004561,0.011816,-0.013632,-0.009858,0.011376,0.001972,0.00012,-0.010538
Vinca:HUN_Vinca_MN:I1889,0.127482,0.177718,0.006034,-0.091086,0.060319,-0.050479,-0.00705,-0.005307,0.044995,0.088931,0.013478,0.016785,-0.02884,0.001376,-0.040309,-0.018297,0.017863,0.003801,0.011564,-0.012381,-0.012353,0.005935,-0.006409,-0.003735,-0.012933
Vinca:HUN_Vinca_MN:I1895,0.119514,0.166547,0.026776,-0.071383,0.058472,-0.039045,0.001645,-0.000462,0.052358,0.075992,0.007795,0.007194,-0.011001,0,-0.03298,0.009281,0.03051,0.001394,0.014958,0.004127,-0.008111,0.003215,-0.006409,-0.004097,-0.005748
Vinca:HUN_Vinca_MN:I1896,0.118376,0.180764,0.005657,-0.088502,0.056626,-0.04267,-0.009165,-0.009923,0.036405,0.085469,-0.001786,0.016485,-0.023934,-0.009221,-0.043973,0.010077,0.040549,-0.00152,0.007793,-0.013757,-0.008735,0.007172,-0.005546,-0.002169,-0.014011

we can clearly see they prefer the Vinca Neolithic more than Bulgarian Chalcolithic. Even distances fell.

Target: BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20186 Distance: 2.2483% / 0.02248269
39.2	Vinca
36.2	TUR_Aegean_Izmir_Yassitepe_MBA
14.6	HUN_EIA_Prescythian_Mezocsat
7.0	MDA_Cimmerian
2.2	SRB_IA
0.8	MDA_Sabatinovka_LBA

Target: BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20185 Distance: 2.1443% / 0.02144335
29.4	Vinca
26.4	GRC_Mycenaean
16.0	SRB_IA
14.0	BGR_C
6.8	TUR_Aegean_Izmir_Yassitepe_MBA
5.8	ROU_Trestiana_BA
1.6	MDA_MultiCordonedWare_MBA

Target: BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20184 Distance: 2.3760% / 0.02375962
26.6	TUR_Aegean_Izmir_Yassitepe_MBA
26.2	Vinca
16.6	BGR_C
9.0	MDA_Sabatinovka_LBA
8.8	Tisza_Neolithic
5.8	GRC_Mycenaean
4.8	BGR_KapitanAndreevo_EMBA
2.2	MDA_CrihanaVeche_BA

Target: BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20183 Distance: 1.7602% / 0.01760169
41.2	Vinca
19.6	TUR_Aegean_Izmir_Yassitepe_MBA
15.0	GRC_Mycenaean
11.4	ROU_Trestiana_BA
6.8	HUN_LBA_Halva
4.4	SRB_IA
1.2	Tisza_Neolithic
0.4	MDA_Sabatinovka_LBA

Target: BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20181 Distance: 2.7188% / 0.02718844
39.6	Vinca
28.0	GRC_Mycenaean
10.4	TUR_Aegean_Izmir_Yassitepe_MBA
9.6	BGR_MLBA
8.6	ROU_Trestiana_BA
3.8	HUN_LBA_Halva

Target: BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20180 Distance: 2.1820% / 0.02181991
38.0	Vinca
33.8	TUR_Aegean_Izmir_Yassitepe_MBA
23.0	HUN_EIA_Prescythian_Mezocsat
4.8	BGR_KapitanAndreevo_EMBA
0.4	SRB_IA

On general i don't think it's a good model anyway, but i wanted to see how it reacts to Bulgarian Chalcolithic vs a more Western Neolithic and it prefers the more Western variant, something Southern Pannonian one. I do think Gava was a result of more Southern colonizers coming from Southern Pannonia and not the other way around.

So for me, the combination of archaeology and genetics is that those Iron Age E-V13 came from Oltenia, South-East Hungary, North-East Serbia, North-Western Bulgaria, or along the Danube. Descendands of Danubian Neolithics.

 

[Riverman]

I do think Gava was a result of more Southern colonizers coming from Southern Pannonia and not the other way around.

The problem with this is that we got the samples from the earlier period and it doesn't look like it, but generally speaking, we deal with a constant up and down migration along the Tisza and Danube! Especially within what I referred to as the Carpathian cremation complex, of the groups with similar burial traditions and other elements of their culture and pottery.

So for me, the combination of archaeology and genetics is that those Iron Age E-V13 came from Oltenia, South-East Hungary, North-East Serbia, North-Western Bulgaria, or along the Danube. Descendands of Danubian Neolithics.

Originally surely so, but I guess they were too exposed and came back from the Carpathians multiple times. Take for example Hatvan as an example, they were hit numerous times by a series of invasions (Kostany-F?zesabony, Tumulus culture etc.). So those staying "in the open" had rather bad chances, its those which retreated behind the Tisza river which seem to have survived and re-expanded from there, probably from a common Nyirseg-Hatvan/Eastern Otomani base.

The Vatin group looks like some have suggest, like Paleorevenge, more leaning towards a complex mix of Yamnaya-related, Danubian block (I2+G2) and unknown, probably including E-V13 lineages. But unlikely being the main source. Might be wrong, but that's my impression.

In any case we deal with the main groupings of G?va-Holigrady and Belegis II-G?va, and they are clearly, very closely connected and related in any case.

The most important part with the model is that they score Mezocsat/Late G?va anyway!

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Aspar model has a poor fit compared to my neolithic model which uses ingredients that are much older, while he is using ingredients much closer in time. As a rule older ingredients should not outperform younger. I want to point out BGR chalcholithic average is not reliable, that's why I dropped it, all but one of the samples are partially mixed with IE/Yamnaya.

Iberia_North_MLN,0.1300429,0.1642619,0.069296,-0.0196222,0.0942868,-0.0192784,-0.0060512,0.0041826,0.0651152,0.0902069,-0.0032476,0.0134692,-0.0308842,-0.0175298,-0.0036982,0.0054198,0.008263,0.0004276,0.0001414,-0.0005314,0.0160184,0.0039721,-0.0140041,-0.0431538,0.0040265
Iberia_SW_CA,0.119372,0.1629926,0.0509584,-0.0347225,0.0839002,-0.0216839,-0.0044064,0.002221,0.0617916,0.0891818,-0.0033692,0.0163355,-0.0330584,-0.0132118,-0.0082621,-0.0027514,0.0061281,0.0014095,-0.0004871,-0.0047211,0.0106999,0.0016385,-0.0158681,-0.0370685,0.0024848
Iberia_Southwest_MLN,0.1225493,0.1648543,0.0487743,-0.041021,0.085452,-0.0256577,-0.004935,-0.0016923,0.065993,0.093001,0.002057,0.0125387,-0.0256193,-0.0159183,-0.0060623,0.0037567,0.012517,0.0048143,0.000545,-0.003585,0.016596,0.0056057,-0.0175427,-0.0430987,0.000359
Iberia_Central_CA,0.1263435,0.1690857,0.0548712,-0.029716,0.095864,-0.0212652,-0.0072262,0.0002305,0.0659078,0.0904348,-0.007064,0.0140125,-0.0315535,-0.0146222,-0.0047842,0.0045082,0.0117018,0.0010768,-0.0014452,-0.0030325,0.01541,0.0018858,-0.0118318,-0.030607,0.0013172
FRA_Occitanie_LN,0.130897,0.168578,0.060716,-0.031331,0.089863,-0.015339,-0.0047,0.007846,0.06872,0.086198,-0.01023,0.014837,-0.026908,-0.012937,-0.001357,-0.001061,0.005215,0.004181,0.004902,0.013131,0.017968,0.002968,-0.01861,-0.01699,0.006347
DEU_Wartberg_MN:Avg,0.120589222222222,0.164205444444444,0.0820970555555555,0.0102821666666667,0.103540666666667,-0.00956744444444445,0.000411222222222222,0.00569208333333333,0.0728615277777778,0.0723376111111111,-0.00464616666666667,0.00960808333333333,-0.0183431111111111,-0.0115106944444444,0.00425636111111111,0.0174833611111111,0.0110573333333333,0.00216780555555556,-0.00287008333333333,0.0103904166666667,0.0287825555555556,0.0039775,-0.0195860833333333,-0.0570998611111111,0.00576791666666667
POL_BKG_N:Avg,0.121600833333333,0.171793666666667,0.0336266666666667,-0.0614238333333333,0.0693461666666667,-0.0323976666666667,0.000391666666666667,-0.000230833333333333,0.0459496666666667,0.0785738333333333,0.0023545,0.009391,-0.0177153333333333,0.00309666666666667,-0.0301073333333333,-0.00556883333333333,0.0116476666666667,0.00287166666666667,0.0128631666666667,-0.0093795,-0.0042425,0.00748116666666667,-0.00796983333333333,-0.0190388333333333,-0.00347283333333333
POL_Globular_Amphora:Avg,0.128294857142857,0.170101357142857,0.0588578571428571,-0.0259092142857143,0.0830045,-0.0214147857142857,0.00129257142857143,0.00702164285714286,0.0525772142857143,0.0728814285714286,0.000464,0.0100946428571429,-0.0171702142857143,-0.0066255,-0.0132132142857143,0.000606142857142857,0.00724564285714286,0.00614428571428571,0.00683264285714286,-5.35714285714284E-05,0.00962578571428572,0.00711878571428571,-0.0137949285714286,-0.0258728571428571,0.000213928571428572
CZE_EE:Avg,0.127237964285714,0.17097175,0.0509921071428571,-0.0404442142857143,0.0819822142857143,-0.0237257142857143,-0.000654642857142857,0.00443392857142857,0.0550607857142857,0.0779645357142857,0.000144928571428572,0.0109027857142857,-0.022315,-0.00614885714285714,-0.0161603214285714,0.000895,0.0154737142857143,0.004122,0.00753732142857143,-0.00224225,0.00953217857142857,0.006483,-0.01290575,-0.0280934285714286,0.000440464285714286
CZE_ME:Avg,0.124392285714286,0.169956214285714,0.0544939285714286,-0.0342841428571429,0.0824109285714286,-0.0206178571428571,0.000419714285714286,0.00456571428571428,0.0517447142857143,0.0746646428571428,0.00145,0.00639064285714286,-0.0203134285714286,-0.00460057142857143,-0.0150649285714286,-0.0001135,0.0111852142857143,0.00594535714285714,0.00472271428571429,-0.00364464285714286,0.00912671428571428,0.00552028571428571,-0.0128618571428571,-0.0287389285714286,0.000350714285714286
CZE_N:Avg,0.125611857142857,0.1793135,0.0332404285714286,-0.0636540714285714,0.0725628571428572,-0.0344431428571429,-0.00334035714285714,0.000164857142857143,0.049933,0.0792597142857143,0.00394357142857143,0.0102338571428571,-0.0220018571428571,0.000186785714285714,-0.0274639285714286,-0.0030685,0.0150593571428571,0.00213557142857143,0.010442,-0.00544014285714286,-0.000641785714285715,0.00774578571428571,-0.0089355,-0.0144768571428571,-0.00251485714285714
ITA_N:Avg,0.1237256,0.1804595,0.0142173,-0.0789412,0.0601651,-0.0393792,-0.0045356,-0.0041076,0.0448929,0.0854687,0.0034102,0.014537,-0.0250643,-0.0053535,-0.0301435,-0.0051974,0.0187754,0.0022805,0.0079819,-0.0086792,-0.0063386,0.0032891,-0.0049669,-0.0119414,-0.0007425
ITA_CA:Avg,0.124067285714286,0.179603857142857,0.0323248571428571,-0.0631234285714286,0.0695074285714286,-0.0337458571428571,-0.00419642857142857,-0.00286814285714286,0.0490857142857143,0.0880982857142857,0.00183257142857143,0.0137662857142857,-0.0266104285714286,-0.00241814285714286,-0.0206488571428571,-0.00505728571428571,0.0129078571428571,-0.000343857142857143,0.00585414285714286,-0.006789,-0.00262028571428571,0.0106341428571429,-0.0100887142857143,-0.0191248571428571,-0.000616
ITA_Sardinia_CA:Avg,0.128269846153846,0.179905,0.0428467692307692,-0.0568728461538461,0.0794230769230769,-0.0307423076923077,-0.00287430769230769,-0.000816461538461539,0.0587141538461538,0.100173923076923,0.000312153846153846,0.016589,-0.0345236153846154,-0.0154242307692308,-0.0181028461538462,-0.000173461538461539,0.0137606153846154,0.00343030769230769,0.00431238461538461,-0.011621,0.000873384615384615,0.00211146153846154,-0.0112913846153846,-0.0284284615384615,0.000902846153846154
ITA_Broion_CA,0.123498,0.1822875,0.024136,-0.059755,0.0678585,-0.0446225,-0.0074025,-0.001154,0.0447905,0.0835555,0.0026795,0.015586,-0.0250495,0.0070875,-0.0177115,-0.0066295,0.011278,0.001774,0.0065365,-0.009567,-0.013913,0.0168165,-0.0100445,-0.0148215,0.003712
HUN_Baden_LCA:Avg,0.127969857142857,0.175396428571429,0.0319475714285714,-0.0624774285714286,0.0690238571428571,-0.0312755714285714,-0.00238371428571429,0.000296571428571429,0.045667,0.0793247142857143,0.003248,0.0140447142857143,-0.0224901428571429,0.000334285714285714,-0.0286948571428571,-0.00750085714285714,0.0141,0.002588,0.012498,-0.008379,-0.00504471428571429,0.00575885714285714,-0.00485928571428571,-0.017145,0.000615714285714286
HUN_LCA:Avg,0.121790666666667,0.168578,0.02753,-0.0580323333333333,0.0702693333333333,-0.0269596666666667,-0.00203666666666667,-0.00161533333333333,0.040973,0.07988,0.001624,0.00959133333333333,-0.019772,0.00133033333333333,-0.029587,0.0122866666666667,0.0246423333333333,0.00540533333333333,0.00905,-0.00650333333333333,-0.00486633333333333,0.00865566666666667,-0.006286,-0.0130943333333333,-0.000359333333333333
HUN_Protoboleraz_LCA:Avg,0.127861333333333,0.177040666666667,0.0252673333333333,-0.0708446666666667,0.072321,-0.028726,-0.006502,0.000384666666666667,0.0489493333333333,0.080184,0.004276,0.007943,-0.0158076666666667,0.00477066666666667,-0.035785,-0.0132146666666667,0.00982233333333333,0.000126666666666667,0.0106006666666667,-0.00712866666666667,-0.00561533333333333,0.00255566666666667,-0.002917,-0.00887666666666667,-0.00303366666666667
ROU_N:Avg,0.1246365,0.18406475,0.0118795,-0.0973845,0.061396,-0.04894525,-0.00475875,-0.0047305,0.04637575,0.092075,0.006861,0.01442475,-0.0239715,0.0036815,-0.0477395,-0.01431975,0.019199,0.008203,0.01461225,-0.00912925,-0.01553525,0.006059,-0.00714825,0.0038255,-0.00874175
ROU_C:Avg,0.12548975,0.17060875,0.02413575,-0.063308,0.06578125,-0.03311825,0,-0.00080775,0.0411605,0.0726665,0.0031665,0.00966625,-0.0185455,-3.44999999999998E-05,-0.0303675,-0.0063975,0.0158415,0.00047525,0.013167,-0.00703475,-0.0031195,0.005348,-0.006686,-0.0146705,-0.0035925
SRB_N:Avg,0.129378666666667,0.183134,0.011188,-0.097869,0.0588826666666667,-0.0449943333333333,-0.00156666666666667,-0.00707666666666667,0.0407686666666667,0.0896603333333333,0.00319366666666667,0.015586,-0.0223486666666667,4.60000000000003E-05,-0.0417566666666667,-0.015513,0.0200356666666667,0.000253666666666667,0.0111033333333333,-0.0124643333333333,-0.00540733333333333,0.004328,-0.00772366666666667,0.00453866666666667,0.000279333333333333
SRB_CBA:Avg,0.1257745,0.1777175,0.02621,-0.071706,0.065243,-0.0355585,-0.0015275,-0.002308,0.0466315,0.0789995,0.003004,0.015436,-0.023414,0.004748,-0.0310125,-0.0127285,0.0215135,0.007728,0.007416,-0.004502,-0.006426,0.0057495,-0.0110305,-0.0181955,-0.0083225
ALB_MKD_NC:Avg,0.123687666666667,0.184149333333333,0.00251433333333333,-0.102175666666667,0.051394,-0.0469466666666667,-0.003525,-0.00246166666666667,0.040632,0.0840106666666667,0.00974333333333333,0.0125886666666667,-0.0262136666666667,0.00165166666666667,-0.0406706666666667,-0.0153803333333333,0.013299,0.002196,0.0104746666666667,-0.0162996666666667,-0.0124363333333333,0.00783133333333333,-0.00176666666666667,0.001205,-0.00782366666666667
GRC_N:Avg,0.11434043,0.17476338,-0.00569102347272727,-0.0961074378181818,0.0442878805454545,-0.0451802139090909,-0.00232870401818182,-0.00312569842727273,0.0294329064545455,0.0742363483636364,0.00602312088181818,0.0122209923,-0.0231369336363636,-0.00175160221454545,-0.0368419778181818,-0.00966696318181818,0.02345722,-1.1202545454546E-07,0.0101357883272727,-0.0137566630909091,-0.0164482572636364,0.00454137804545455,-0.003764604,-0.000832669090909091,-0.00628142412727273
GRC_Minoan:Avg,0.113823129172414,0.171239262413793,-0.0173345517862069,-0.0897720373793103,0.029013338862069,-0.0378425697586207,-0.00128038443793103,-0.00530746287241379,0.0129273328137931,0.0600625745517242,0.00485482718517241,0.0115913991055172,-0.0219761827103448,0.000930158292413793,-0.0310003162068965,-0.00806967234482759,0.0160507466013793,0.000825695220344827,0.0103895781103448,-0.0122084390589655,-0.0096295337,0.00387584341172414,-0.00334038353965517,0.00174102350517241,-0.00423666683482759
BGR_Late_C:I2423,0.114961,0.171624,0.018479,-0.069122,0.061242,-0.036535,0.000235,-0.002769,0.035383,0.082553,0.007632,0.012439,-0.02438,-0.000275,-0.041259,0.004508,0.038854,-0.004687,0.005782,0.001501,0.004492,0.002226,0.000616,-0.010845,-0.005508
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG:Avg,0.13046975,0.11805525,0.1794505,0.174532,0.1301396875,0.05351209375,0.01399796875,0.0320540625,0.06475096875,-0.00843409375,-0.00892628125,-0.0168138125,0.02473340625,-4.21874999999999E-06,0.032080875,0.04726409375,0.00466528125,0.0055781875,-0.006768,0.04741340625,0.07336275,0.01101284375,-0.03336925,-0.12037075,0.01111040625
Yamnaya_Avg:,0.120715777777778,0.0878996666666667,0.0439556111111111,0.113661111111111,-0.0293728888888889,0.0448704444444444,0.00420394444444444,-0.00333322222222222,-0.0553464444444444,-0.0740585555555556,0.000496055555555556,0.000366388888888889,-0.00175922222222222,-0.0232582222222222,0.0337866666666667,0.0136272222222222,-0.000992444444444444,-0.00304055555555556,-0.00233938888888889,0.0107411666666667,-0.00358394444444444,0.000583888888888889,0.0101952777777778,0.0198688333333333,-0.0037055
Corded_Ware_Early(POL_CZE_BALTIC_GER),0.1253507,0.10915866,0.056808809,0.089148191,0.0044132128,0.033087128,0.0037300426,0.00056465957,-0.028402702,-0.041441191,-0.0014857447,0.00009887234,-0.0056111064,-0.014620191,0.026595404,0.0083559362,-0.0093626809,0.0014421702,-0.0005696383,0.0058938085,0.0016965106,0.0034095532,0.0045051064,0.015449404,-0.0021528511
X_ME:sha009_Shahtepe_IRN_CA_Avg,0.0827116666666667,0.0954596666666667,-0.098554,-0.00721366666666667,-0.087914,0.00920366666666667,0.00705,-0.00930733333333333,-0.0695383333333333,-0.035961,-0.000216333333333333,0.008842,-0.00966266666666667,-0.005826,0.012622,0.0255456666666667,0.00551933333333333,0.00287133333333333,0.00758366666666667,-0.016091,0.00465866666666667,-0.00919166666666667,-0.00369766666666667,-0.0207256666666667,0.0122943333333333
X_ME:TUR_BlackSea_Amasya_EBA:Avg,0.1058554,0.1584226,-0.0488748,-0.0832694,-0.0075706,-0.0343036,0.000987,-0.0083074,-0.0173026,0.0269342,0.0063656,0.009981,-0.0136174,0.004817,-0.0207652,-0.0113762,0.0051108,0.0016722,0.004475,-0.0093546,-0.0030444,0.0041052,-0.0033032,-0.0043862,-0.00012

I believe the Daco-Thracian cline runs more like the Slavic one.

BTW Brumi hinted that there are 2 PF7562+ in the Serbian BA sample, he wrote this a month ago. He might be able to see SNPs before they are published.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

A basic summary in light of the coming data.

Riverman, please make any edits to Romania, left it mostly blank, it is outside my expertise.

Early Iron Age

 

[PaleoRevenge]

If we want to model Thracian, it should be done with the oldest of Thracians, which of the 10-11 Thracians are the oldest of samples?

1_FRA_Champagne_IA2:I21932,0.1282787,0.1364871,0.0579634,0.0362083,0.0468394,0.0101236,0.0049351,0.0029537,0.0093057,0.0128659,-0.002793,0.0061146,-0.0125618,-0.0079547,0.0135177,-0.0033279,-0.0103785,0.0020523,0.0023128,-0.0002251,0.0049787,0.0040065,-0.0008751,-0.0010604,-0.0016526
1a_CZE_IA_La_Tene:Average,0.128477775,0.1377312,0.05793515,0.036135625,0.0412615,0.010158575,0.002761275,0.003680575,0.00743955,0.01031005,-0.003312775,0.005046725,-0.01234995,-0.009351375,0.008815,0.00627475,-0.000283575,0.001681725,0.001112425,0.003135875,0.003631125,0.0030264,-0.00218145,0.00156345,-0.0011615
1b_FRA_Occitanie_IA2,0.1300432,0.135827,0.0581708,0.021964,0.0506245,0.0122012,-0.002174,-0.003173,0.0177935,0.0249665,0.001827,0.0092542,-0.0208498,-0.0103905,0.0163885,0.0046072,0.0031617,0.0065245,-0.0043993,-0.0080038,0.0099512,0.0025348,-0.0097983,-0.0059348,0.0000003
1c_AUT_IA_La_Tene,0.129379,0.1479287,0.046386,0.004845,0.043085,0.0035327,0.0025067,0.0059997,0.015271,0.0221717,-0.0011367,0.0065443,-0.0104557,-0.0031193,0.001493,-0.0047733,-0.0034333,0.005701,0.0079607,-0.001959,0.0017883,-0.0000413,-0.003533,-0.0011647,-0.0044307
2_ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA,0.12862,0.145221,0.04714,0.005491,0.046162,0.00251,-0.00282,0.002769,0.021475,0.039727,-0.002923,0.012289,-0.021407,-0.016239,0.012622,0.000398,-0.003129,0.003421,0.00176,-0.001251,0.004492,0.003586,-0.00456,-0.003976,0.000239
2a_ITA_Tarquinia_IA,0.1191005,0.1458668,0.0240328,-0.0153572,0.0348316,-0.0067948,-0.0000641,0.0018461,0.0142981,0.0284618,-0.00186,0.0063899,-0.0148932,-0.0083574,-0.0004319,-0.0021454,-0.002809,0.0008063,0.003234,-0.0028763,-0.0010663,0.0042942,-0.0046163,-0.0024318,-0.0024057
2b_ITA_Etruscan_Avg,0.11890773125,0.15218500625,0.033543575,-0.01537985,0.0450964625,-0.00764275625,5.93437499999999E-05,-0.00031175625,0.02124244375,0.03756183125,-0.0020732125,0.0064910375,-0.0161035,-0.00859695625,-0.003279325,-0.0004214375,0.00439583125,-0.00033300625,0.0026681625,-0.00211206875,-0.00245438125,0.0015743125,-0.00150779375,-0.00416983125,-0.0019433
2c_ITA_Boville_Ernica_IA,0.126344,0.152329,0.034318,-0.014535,0.054164,-0.01506,-0.001175,0.005307,0.019634,0.041914,0.005196,0.01079,-0.011001,-0.005643,0.004479,-0.016441,-0.010822,-0.001394,0.006662,-0.01113,0.007736,0.007172,-0.007641,-0.00241,0.008981
3_SVN_EIA:Avg,0.1297584,0.1478611,0.0458202,0.0069122,0.0434541,-0.0008646,0.001269,0.0026537,0.0110034,0.0244013,0.0002273,0.0063693,-0.0152377,-0.0086425,0.0019953,-0.0025457,0.0016038,0.0021283,0.0026522,-0.0021007,-0.0021588,0.0065536,-0.0015159,-0.0023257,-0.0013172
3a_HRV_EIA:Average,0.127608222222222,0.147251777777778,0.0320973333333333,-0.00118433333333333,0.0354595555555555,-0.000929666666666667,0.00167111111111111,0.002359,0.0107942222222222,0.0275176666666667,-0.000595444444444444,0.008992,-0.0170795555555556,-0.00776788888888889,-0.00191511111111111,-0.00210677777777778,0.003868,0.00311088888888889,0.00713688888888889,-0.00450222222222222,-0.00270355555555556,0.00168988888888889,0.000698333333333333,5.34444444444446E-05,-0.00258133333333333
3b_HRV_IA:Average,0.12235975,0.150805875,0.037617875,-0.000121125,0.03746825,-0.0011155,0.000616875,-0.000317375,0.01140225,0.026720375,-0.003491375,0.00904825,-0.013862625,-0.009152,-0.003834125,0.001806625,0.007757875,0.001187625,0.0031425,0.000171875,-0.00229275,0.00386425,-0.002880875,0.001099625,-0.003502625
3c_ALB_Çinamak_Anc_Average,0.12475,0.1537512,0.0302452,-0.0142766,0.0300362,-0.0074186,0.003008,0.0005078,-0.001636,0.0248934,0.0011366,0.0071936,-0.0192368,-0.0072664,-0.0093376,-0.0049058,0.0066756,0.0026096,0.0039722,-0.0091042,-0.007986,0.0025474,-0.0043382,0.0057118,-0.0064664
4_HUN_EIA_Avg,0.124067,0.146236,0.029038,-0.018411,0.037545,-0.013666,0.00235,0.002769,0.018407,0.046106,0.001461,0.004196,-0.01888,-0.003991,-0.011672,-0.013259,-0.00339,0.011655,0.007039,-0.005878,-0.01123,-0.000866,-0.000616,-0.000361,-0.005868
4a_HUN_EIA_Hallstatt_Avg,0.133173,0.146236,0.056191,0.016473,0.049548,-0.006972,0.00188,0.001385,0.01084,0.015855,-0.000325,0.009292,-0.007284,0.004404,-0.004479,0.005701,0.005998,0.00266,0.011187,-0.005378,-0.007237,0.000247,-0.000493,-0.008676,-0.001078
4b_HUN_EIA_Prescythian_Mezocsat,0.1274818,0.143596,0.0500816,0.0178942,0.042777,0.0041274,0.0039012,0.0025386,0.0114126,0.0141782,0.0027608,0.003417,-0.0051734,0.00011,-0.0040172,0.0001326,-0.0016688,0.0010642,0.0028658,-0.0011256,-0.0023708,0.001385,-0.0027116,-0.0100734,-0.0007424
4c_HUN_IA_La_Tene,0.1284132,0.145313,0.0477743,0.014535,0.044218,0.0036763,0.0018266,0.0031782,0.012569,0.02104,-0.0044878,0.00515,-0.0119065,-0.0015576,-0.0018569,0.0000663,0.0030048,0.0005644,0.0040509,0.0006935,-0.00038,0.0046425,-0.0004201,-0.0044529,-0.0026128
5_MKD_Northern_Greek_IA_Avg,0.122928857142857,0.154215428571429,0.02225,-0.016473,0.0260268571428571,-0.00840642857142857,-0.00271942857142857,-0.00425271428571429,0.00298028571428571,0.0281424285714286,0.00436114285714286,0.00623,-0.0154394285714286,-0.003126,-0.0108575714285714,-0.00702728571428571,-0.00163928571428571,0.00361957142857143,0.00734428571428571,-0.011577,-0.0130307142857143,0.00718942857142857,-0.000669,0.008452,-0.002412
6_I10379_&_I18832_Average,0.1274815,0.148775,0.0199875,-0.0276165,0.028159,-0.0145025,0.0036425,-0.0006925,0.005829,0.0338045,0.0021925,0.0083925,-0.0124875,-0.00578,-0.023344,0.0061655,0.028489,0.001647,0.0071015,-0.0015005,-0.016783,0.0032765,0.0006165,0.00723,-0.0022155
ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_I10946_E-V13,0.125205,0.147252,0.02753,-0.000646,0.03693,-0.006414,-0.005405,-0.010153,0.006749,0.03262,0.009419,0.008093,-0.015015,0.006193,-0.015336,-0.016309,-0.005215,-0.002027,0.011564,-0.007879,-0.008485,0.013231,0.00037,-0.002169,0.009101
ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_I10950_E-V13,0.129758,0.14217 4,0.028661,-0.007429,0.039084,-0.008088,0.005875,0.005077,0.005318,0.031345,0.000 487,0.009142,-0.00996,0.004679,-0.019679,-0.004508,0.01682,-0.00076,0.011061,0.002376,-0.008735,0.006554,-0.001109,-0.003253,-0.000958
GRC_Minoan_Avg,0.113823129172414,0.171239262413793,-0.0173345517862069,-0.0897720373793103,0.029013338862069,-0.0378425697586207,-0.00128038443793103,-0.00530746287241379,0.0129273328137931,0.0600625745517242,0.00485482718517241,0.0115913991055172,-0.0219761827103448,0.000930158292413793,-0.0310003162068965,-0.00806967234482759,0.0160507466013793,0.000825695220344827,0.0103895781103448,-0.0122084390589655,-0.0096295337,0.00387584341172414,-0.00334038353965517,0.00174102350517241,-0.00423666683482759

 

[torzio]

Distance to: Torzio_g25_scaled
0.01569991 3a_HRV_EIA:Average
0.02029871 3b_HRV_IA:Average
0.02418224 2a_ITA_Tarquinia_IA
0.02550029 3_SVN_EIA:Avg
0.02590079 1c_AUT_IA_La_Tene
0.02902703 3c_ALB_Çinamak_Anc_Average
0.03095270 4c_HUN_IA_La_Tene
0.03353975 5_MKD_Northern_Greek_IA_Avg
0.03487306 2b_ITA_Etruscan_Avg
0.03637409 4b_HUN_EIA_Prescythian_Mezocsat
0.03979150 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_I10950_E-V13
0.04126145 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_I10946_E-V13
0.04137279 2_ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA
0.04454113 4a_HUN_EIA_Hallstatt_Avg
0.04469109 4_HUN_EIA_Avg
0.04888951 2c_ITA_Boville_Ernica_IA
0.05268258 1a_CZE_IA_La_Tene:Average
0.05443077 1b_FRA_Occitanie_IA2
0.05479934 1_FRA_Champagne_IA2:I21932
0.05615169 6_I10379_&_I18832_Average
0.12624540 GRC_Minoan_Avg

 

[Hawk]

A basic summary in light of the coming data.


Riverman, please make any edits to Romania, left it mostly blank, it is outside my expertise.



Early Iron Age

I would put J2b2-L283 in combination with Dardani/Belacevac(along E-V13 + R1b-Z2103) and E-V13 more south in Slavonia, i would say moreso J2b2+E-V13 rather than J2B2-L283 + R1b-Z2103 in that particular area.

I also must say i made sort of a mistake using the G25 coordinates single, but i usually prefer to use them since averaged can be missleading and i want to check the variations inside a group, it tells much more, but sort of i am certain if a Chalcolithic group from South Pannonia gets sampled it will be a better fit for Kapitan Andreevo than Bulgarian Chalcolithic. What is your opinion Paleo, how do you see all this fitting, could it be that E-V13 was all along in Neolithic Bulgaria or somewhere else?

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I would put J2b2-L283 in combination with Dardani/Belacevac(along E-V13 + R1b-Z2103) and E-V13 more south in Slavonia, i would say moreso J2b2+E-V13 rather than J2B2-L283 + R1b-Z2103 in that particular area.

I also must say i made sort of a mistake using the G25 coordinates single, but i usually prefer to use them since averaged can be missleading and i want to check the variations inside a group, it tells much more, but sort of i am certain if a Chalcolithic group from South Pannonia gets sampled it will be a better fit for Kapitan Andreevo than Bulgarian Chalcolithic. What is your opinion Paleo, how do you see all this fitting, could it be that E-V13 was all along in Neolithic Bulgaria or somewhere else?

I don't have any opinion on E-V13 other than they must not have been on the Danube part of Serbia during most of BA, otherwise there would be spillage early on into neighboring people(Illyrians included). BGR Calcolithic only a singe sample is good, the rest are part Yamnaya(4-9%).

The ancestors of south Thracians plotted like Cinamak before being shifted to where they form a their south Thracian cluster. However other E-V13, Mysians, Triballi, and eastern Dardani are heavily admixtured with the Serbian BA R-Z2103 profile, that admixture pulled them toward MKD BA, recall how Cimmerian MJ12 plots for example.

We have a PCA from the Danubian paper pre-print, we can back into how the Balkan IA E-V13 profiles plot.

In general there is a cline, like the modern Balkan one. The samples that defy this cline are the 3 J2b-L283s north of the cluster and some G2s south of the cluster. The single R-Z2103 also extends out toward IA Estonia and might have some steppe mixture. The rest which are mostly E-V13 (not all, some are females) form the south Thracian cluster and North-western Thracian cluster, with some even in between.


BTW here is a blank version of the map, people should make their own proposals for fun.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Interesting samples to come from one of Riverman's links:

Rohrlach, Adam Ben
Local genetic continuity in Transylvania from the Copper Age until the Late Bronze Age

Ravasini, Francesco
Archaeogenetics of the Picenes and the legacy of the Roman expansion in Central Italy

Molak, Martyna
Reconstructing the past of the Oder and Vistula basins population with ancient genomes (this is the speculated original homeland of I2a Slavic clades)

Metspalu, Mait
Genesis of genetic landscape in Northeast Europe

Jia, Xiaowen
Archaeogenomic pilot research of Kamenice, a prehistoric Albanian tumulus (1600 BCE-500 BCE) (same culture complex as Barc, this is Korca plain, by the wording this is just sub-sample of the overall bigger 100 sample that includes all of Albania)

Iraeta-Orbegozo, Miren
Isotopic and genetic analysis of the individuals buried in the Early Iron Age mass grave from Gomolava, Serbia (Hopefully not part of Carles Fox paper)

Freilich, Suzanne
Archaeogenetic insights into the Late Iron Age cemetery of Göttlesbrunn, Lower Austria

https://www.embl.org/about/info/course-and-conference-office/wp-content/uploads/EES22-09_Poster-listing.pdf

 

[Riverman]

Iraeta-Orbegozo, Miren
Isotopic and genetic analysis of the individuals buried in the Early Iron Age mass grave from Gomolava, Serbia (Hopefully not part of Carles Fox paper)

If Bruzmi is right, its part of the Fox paper, but adds additional samples. Question is how many samples they have taken from the 77-78 individuals in this mass grave. Hopefully many...

There are other upcoming papers of interest, dealing with Hallstatt Southern Germany, which might prove whether E-V13 was there or not. Will depend on sample size also, in my opinion.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

If Bruzmi is right, its part of the Fox paper, but adds additional samples. Question is how many samples they have taken from the 77-78 individuals in this mass grave. Hopefully many...

There are other upcoming papers of interest, dealing with Hallstatt Southern Germany, which might prove whether E-V13 was there or not. Will depend on sample size also, in my opinion.

So these are the Iron Age individuals? 25 samples from Iron Age, the rest are women.

 

[Riverman]

So these are the Iron Age individuals? 25 samples from Iron Age, the rest are women.

I have no idea what Fox included in the graphic or what will still be added in the final version.