To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

[eupator]

No these sites are not colonies from southern Greeks but locals.

Speculating here, I think the biggest twist would be R-L584 (Caucasus Yamnaya into Armenia/Anatolia) found in Albania and/or the Balkans, for us R1b Yamnaya research afficionados.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Speculating here, I think the biggest twist would be R-L584 (Caucasus Yamnaya into Armenia/Anatolia) found in Albania and/or the Balkans, for us R1b Yamnaya research afficionados.

The surprises never end, despite how much we already know, like Greek J2a being a sub-branch of Hungarian neolithic clade. It's frustrating knowing that there are lots of ancient samples that have been tested but are clearly being withheld from being published, like the leak of R1b in Arta (Greece) from IA (this has been known for over 4 years now). In 2004-5, lots of samples were tested in tumulus burials of Kamenica Albania, used in someones thesis paper to get their phd, where are the bam files?
Ancient samples have already been tested to a great degree, but they are very slow to be released, Reich and co are seating on the data, picking and choosing what to publish.

 

[Archetype0ne]

I am not sure what sort of sequencing you are talking about in 2004-5, but at the time any sort was prohibitively expensive, we are talking tens of millions a piece (https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/fact-sheets/Sequencing-Human-Genome-cost).
So I find it hard to believe that " In 2004-5, lots of samples were tested in tumulus burials of Kamenica Albania, used in someones thesis paper to get their phd".

But I have to agree with the general sentiment. Waiting like 4 years for the Moldovan L283...

 

[PaleoRevenge]

BTW, check this out, tumulus 99, is I8471, Shkrel MBA. Watch at 25:20.

The Albanian EBA and MBA samples were already processed in 2018, per video presentation by that Kosovar chick. The data got published 4 years later in southern Arc. What is even more interesting, she thinks 099 individual is not a local but from Kosovo, based on bone geochemistry.
This is hilarious, because I had a debate with Brumi, that Shkrel aDNA is atypical for Illyrian, and I am certain he has strong central Balkan admixture. In Carles Fox paper we will see this profile be quite common in BA Serbia samples(which are loaded with R1b-Z2103). In IA this aDNA profile is associated with the Roman district of Moesia (Cimmerian MJ12, Skopje I10379, Nasius R6769(he is half middle eastern). The E-V13 invaders appropriated R-Z2103 aDNA by taking their females in their slash and burn migration.

Moesian = Cimmerian-Skopje-Hun LaTene(I18832) average.

See the supplemental data from southern arc (https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247), Shkrel = tumulus 099.

Additionally, strontium isotope analysis performed on the latter tooth, dating to 1885-1690BCE, indicate that individual was likely of non-local, inland origin.One individual is included in this study.

It's safe to say he was not from Bulgaria and Kosovo sounds right.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I am not sure what sort of sequencing you are talking about in 2004-5, but at the time any sort was prohibitively expensive, we are talking tens of millions a piece (https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/fact-sheets/Sequencing-Human-Genome-cost).
So I find it hard to believe that " In 2004-5, lots of samples were tested in tumulus burials of Kamenica Albania, used in someones thesis paper to get their phd".

But I have to agree with the general sentiment. Waiting like 4 years for the Moldovan L283...

About 9-21 samples from 2003, just to be part of someones thesis for their masters of science degree. It is cited in other papers with conflicting sample size. Another paper claims the samples are from 7th-6th century BC.
https://d.lib.msu.edu/etd/33984/datastream/OBJ/view

 

[Hawk]

This is hilarious, because I had a debate with Brumi, that Shkrel aDNA is atypical for Illyrian, and I am certain he has strong central Balkan admixture. In Carles Fox paper we will see this profile be quite common in BA Serbia samples(which are loaded with R1b-Z2103). In IA this aDNA profile is associated with the Roman district of Moesia (Cimmerian MJ12, Skopje I10379, Nasius R6769(he is half middle eastern). The E-V13 invaders appropriated R-Z2103 aDNA by taking their females in their slash and burn migration..

We have been through it several times, but i have yet to see solid evidence from where E-V13 originates from, the most solid evidence for me is to label it generally as from Balkan-Carpathian complex, or so called Carpathian Urnfielder groups. The Psenicevo samples are too Southern admixed, but those two E-V13 mercenaries in Sicily were half Balkanian half Central European and 1 was Caucasian-like, so they were diverse on autosomal it looks. It reflects the Bronze to Iron Age expansion well.

The real question is were they part of Bulgarian Chalcolithic groups, or something more West, in between, Hungary, Serbia, Romania, somewhere in Carpathians. That's something which only aDNA can answer.

In addition, i have seen some people taking the inhumation pits from where E-V13 was sampled as evidence this group used inhumations, but careful reading on archaeological papers will reveal of how much controversial this pit burials were, because they were considered secondary burials, not primary, the northern cousin culture of those E-V13 the so called Insula Banului from Carpathians has so few burials attested by archaeology, there is only few of them and those few are cremations.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

We have been through it several times, but i have yet to see solid evidence from where E-V13 originates from, the most solid evidence for me is to label it generally as from Balkan-Carpathian complex, or so called Carpathian Urnfielder groups. The Psenicevo samples are too Southern admixed, but those two E-V13 mercenaries in Sicily were half Balkanian half Central European and 1 was Caucasian-like, so they were diverse on autosomal it looks. It reflects the Bronze to Iron Age expansion well.

The real question is were they part of Bulgarian Chalcolithic groups, or something more West, in between, Hungary, Serbia, Romania, somewhere in Carpathians. That's something which only aDNA can answer.

In addition, i have seen some people taking the inhumation pits from where E-V13 was sampled as evidence this group used inhumations, but careful reading on archaeological papers will reveal of how much controversial this pit burials were, because they were considered secondary burials, not primary, the northern cousin culture of those E-V13 the so called Insula Banului from Carpathians has so few burials attested by archaeology, there is only few of them and those few are cremations.

I am confident Skopje I10379, MJ12 and Hun LaTene I18832 is aDNA profile for non-Glasinac Dardanii through Triballi-Moesians. Initially I was hung up on reserving this profile solely with Dardanians, but backing into Fox's Serbian BA and IA paper haplgroups, it is clear R1b-Z2103 enjoyed a much bigger habitat/representation than what I assumed, even in IA.
South Thracian is it's own cluster. And Himera I10950 is Dacian. The Dacian cluster will take longer to prove because we will likely never get direct samples from Dacia. But who knows, the Romanian paper from Transylvania will be good enough, because it will have samples through LBA.

 

[Hawk]

I am confident Skopje I10379, MJ12 and Hun LaTene I18832 is aDNA profile for non-Glasinac Dardanii through Triballi-Moesians. Initially I was hung up on reserving this profile solely with Dardanians, but backing into Fox's Serbian BA and IA paper haplgroups, it is clear R1b-Z2103 enjoyed a much bigger habitat/representation than what I assumed, even in IA.
South Thracian is it's own cluster. And Himera I10950 is Dacian. The Dacian cluster will take longer to prove because we will likely never get direct samples from Dacia. But who knows, the Romanian paper from Transylvania will be good enough, because it will have samples through LBA.

Here is a good representation of groups during Iron Age Hallstatt period.

https://www.academia.edu/35174707/At_the_crossroads_of_the_Hallstatt_East

No. 5 is without doubt the territory of E-V13, i am not sure about 4 the Gava group, though Romanian, Hungarian archaeologists do consider Gava as the northern cousin culture of 4 the stamped-incised groups like Psenicevo-Babadag-Insula Banului.

Yeah, just found this, this archaeologist from Romania Simona Lazar describes the chronology as this (this is additional to already two very reliable academic sources regarding this issue):

The chronology of the Early Hallstatt from Oltenia has a first stage characterized by the grooved ceramics; it might be dated, in the absolute chronology, roughly, in the 12th – 11th centuries B.C. The second stage, with imprinted ceramics of Insula Banului – Gornea – Kalakača type is dated in the10th–9th centuries B.C.

https://journals.indexcopernicus.com/api/file/viewByFileId/575240.pdf

Grooved is a synonymous word for channeling/fluted.

Moreso, as we already discussed with pit inhumations, this was an archaeological issue for not only Gava but Psenicevo-Babadag and Insula Banului as well.

Secondly the burial custom of cremation or the custom of not burying larger parts of the population in an archaeologically detectable way as it is attested for the Gáva culture was abandoned.

https://www.academia.edu/35174707/At_the_crossroads_of_the_Hallstatt_East

Would be interesting to see more about R1b-Z2103, where it was more prominent. IMO, this lineage can be paralleled with E-M34 in Levant, they are currently the best candidate for Proto-Afro-Asiatic yet among Semitics/Afro-Asiatic speakers they are so low in number due to latter J1 bottleneck and E-M78 bottlenecks in North-East Africa. The E-M81 among Berbers is an exception but the bottleneck is so late, sort of comparable with R1b-Z2103 bottleneck among Albanians after EMA.

So, this lineage (R1b-Z2103) might be originator of most of Balkanic IE yet for some xyz reasons became less and less prominent during MBA, LBA, IA.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Here is a good representation of groups during Iron Age Hallstatt period.

https://www.academia.edu/35174707/At_the_crossroads_of_the_Hallstatt_East

No. 5 is without doubt the territory of E-V13, i am not sure about 4 the Gava group, though Romanian, Hungarian archaeologists do consider Gava as the northern cousin culture of 4 the stamped-incised groups like Psenicevo-Babadag-Insula Banului.

Thank you for the map, is no. 5 really intruding into western Ukraine? That's impressive.
The Transylvanian samples will make or break the Gava = E-V13 association. Personally I don't see how Gava can't be E-V13. What's the other argument a void of no haplogroups?

Would be interesting to see more about R1b-Z2103, where it was more prominent. IMO, this lineage can be paralleled with E-M34 in Levant, they are currently the best candidate for Proto-Afro-Asiatic yet among Semitics/Afro-Asiatic speakers they are so low in number due to latter J1 bottleneck and E-M78 bottlenecks in North-East Africa. The E-M81 among Berbers is an exception but the bottleneck is so late, sort of comparable with R1b-Z2103 bottleneck among Albanians after EMA.

So, this lineage (R1b-Z2103) might be originator of most of Balkanic IE yet for some xyz reasons became less and less prominent during MBA, LBA, IA.

R1b-Z2103 has many splinter groups, some in Italy, which are connected to Messapii and R1b-Z2103 that fused into early Rome (Latini), a Bronze Age migration event. Some are Hungarian BA, that ended up in Celtic and Germanic branches. There is even a Slavic branch, which likely is a splinter group from northern Hungary or Transylvania. The Rome Latini sample is EIA, and even shows some aDNA signal from Balkan R-Z2103 groups.

The Serbian samples are selections from EBA, north of the Danube, but they showed similarity to Skopje and MJ12, they are not the ancestors of this profile because they lived among the high WHG groups north of the Danube region and are likely dead-ends. But they are to a great extend of what I would coin Vatin aDNA. Skopje differs, it has less WHG and a new component, Romanian neolithic, this is the new component the E-V13 fellas brought, but they still fused to a great extend with this native profile, blending closer to the R1b-Z2103 profile. This effect is more pronounced if Thracians were prone to having multiple wives as Riverman has repeatedly stated.
South Bulgaria must have been Aegean and Anatolian like when E-V13 took over, plus they raided into Anatolia and Greece during BA collapse, likely bringing back captured women.

 

[Hawk]

Thank you for the map, is no. 5 really intruding into western Ukraine? That's impressive.
The Transylvanian samples will make or break the Gava = E-V13 association. Personally I don't see how Gava can't be E-V13. What's the other argument a void of no haplogroups?

I didn't notice the group East of no.4/Gava that it is actually part of Stamped-Imprinted group, interesting. But i have read that both Gava/Channeled and Stamped-Imprinted were found deep into the borders of Ukraine, but probably these groups didn't last for long because of Iranic group invasions of Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians, IDK. But the groups from Southern Carpathians/Oltenia for sure, notice how no.4 is blended with no.3 as well. Hence E-V13 starts to appear over those parts as well.

R1b-Z2103 has many splinter groups, some in Italy, which are connected to Messapii and R1b-Z2103 that fused into early Rome (Latini), a Bronze Age migration event. Some are Hungarian BA, that ended up in Celtic and Germanic branches. There is even a Slavic branch, which likely is a splinter group from northern Hungary or Transylvania. The Rome Latini sample is EIA, and even shows some aDNA signal from Balkan R-Z2103 groups.

The Serbian samples are selections from EBA, north of the Danube, but they showed similarity to Skopje and MJ12, they are not the ancestors of this profile because they lived among the high WHG groups north of the Danube region and are likely dead-ends. But they are to a great extend of what I would coin Vatin aDNA. Skopje differs, it has less WHG and a new component, Romanian neolithic, this is the new component the E-V13 fellas brought, but they still fused to a great extend with this native profile, blending closer to the R1b-Z2103 profile. This effect is more pronounced if Thracians were prone to having multiple wives as Riverman has repeatedly stated.
South Bulgaria must have been Aegean and Anatolian like when E-V13 took over, plus they raided into Anatolia and Greece during BA collapse, likely bringing back captured women.

It's what Herodotus or some other ancient authors wrote regarding the polygamy of Thracians.

As for the aDNA, let's see what new results will bring us, but it looks to me that the picture might look close (my guess) to:

Illyrii Proprii Dictii: mostly J2b2-L283 and some R1b-Z2103, R1b-L51, R1b-PF7562 perhaps some I2a-M223.

Dalmatians: Mostly J2b2-L283, some occasional R1b-L51 and E-V13 on northern borders.

Southern-Illyrians: R1b-PF7562, J2b2-L283, J2a, R1b-Z2103 and perhaps some E-V13 as well.

Pannonian-Illyrians: J2b2-L283, R1b-L51, E-V13, R1b-Z2103.

Dardanians: J2b2-L283, E-V13, R1b-Z2103.

Daco-Thracians: E-V13 mostly, occassionally some R1a and R1b-Z2103.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Researchgate is showing an increase in publication for Carles Fox, it takes a day for the paper to show up. Let's hope it's the much awaited Serbian paper.

 

[Riverman]

G?va won't be sampled in the Transylvanian paper, only Pre-G?va about which context and the numbers of the samples we don't know anything. Note that all the precursors and most successors did cremate. E.g. from Suciu de Sus we have at best only a handful of irregular samples. In Wietenberg its merely 5 % and those are all foreigners and irregulars, with the regulars being cremated.

Concerning the influence of the Channelled/Stamped Daco-Thracian groups, they reached deep into the steppe and Ukraine, which is how I think E-V13 migrated Eastwards, into the Caucasus and Central, even East Asia especially with the Cimmerians and Scythians. Cernoles for example had clear G?va/Stamped Pottery influences of significance.

The main second haplogroup for Daco-Thracians, especially in the very North, might have been I2, because of the obvious close connection to the Lusatians.

 

[torzio]

I didn't notice the group East of no.4/Gava that it is actually part of Stamped-Imprinted group, interesting. But i have read that both Gava/Channeled and Stamped-Imprinted were found deep into the borders of Ukraine, but probably these groups didn't last for long because of Iranic group invasions of Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians, IDK. But the groups from Southern Carpathians/Oltenia for sure, notice how no.4 is blended with no.3 as well. Hence E-V13 starts to appear over those parts as well.




It's what Herodotus or some other ancient authors wrote regarding the polygamy of Thracians.

As for the aDNA, let's see what new results will bring us, but it looks to me that the picture might look close (my guess) to:

Illyrii Proprii Dictii: mostly J2b2-L283 and some R1b-Z2103, R1b-L51, R1b-PF7562 perhaps some I2a-M223.

Dalmatians: Mostly J2b2-L283, some occasional R1b-L51 and E-V13 on northern borders.

Southern-Illyrians: R1b-PF7562, J2b2-L283, J2a, R1b-Z2103 and perhaps some E-V13 as well.

Pannonian-Illyrians: J2b2-L283, R1b-L51, E-V13, R1b-Z2103.

Dardanians: J2b2-L283, E-V13, R1b-Z2103.

Daco-Thracians: E-V13 mostly, occassionally some R1a and R1b-Z2103.

does this site linked ...hold any value to you ?

https://phylogeographer.com/j2b-l283/

 

[torzio]

feb 2023 map

 

[Riverman]

does this site linked ...hold any value to you ?
https://phylogeographer.com/j2b-l283/

It shows what it can show, based on the available modern data, with all the sampling bias, migrations and changes which happened in the last thousands of years. Therefore its valuable, but it doesn't tell us where a haplogroup started. Even the diversity view can be misleading, because even "diversity can migrate" and sampling bias affects it too. If e.g. in an area of Western Ukraine lived a Daco-Thracian tribe which was 80 % E-V13, but this migrated away and its remnants being almost completely annihilated by later migrations, it won't show up. And if they cremated, we also have a problem with their ancient DNA track record. Only dense sampling all around throughout the ages can help and testing way more moderns from all relevant countries.

Phylogeographer has an additional big disadvantage of being based on YFull only. On YFull are more Albanians tested than on FTDNA, but nearly all other people have more people tested on FTDNA, and their data is completely missing. E.g. some months ago (don't know if it changed), there was probably just one Moldovan E-V13 tested, just ONE! On FTDNA its not a lot as well, but at least there are 3, which is still a joke considering the total percentage of E-V13 in Moldova. For Romanians its 10 vs. 20, of which a lot are no ethnic Romanians, but still double the time people tested on FTDNA BigY in comparison to YFull.
The most extreme its for Bulgaria, because it has 60 people, mostly ethnic Bulgarians, on FTDNA tested, yet on YFull are just 11! So almost 6 times the size of FTDNA sample, with Bulgarians being in many important branches and well-represented. You find them on YFull as well, but much fewer of them. That's all data which phylogeographer doesn't take into account.

The FTDNA data being better represented on its new Discovery tool site and on scaledinnovation: http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html


But if tracking down various subclades with scaledinnovation, they constantly being pulled too far to the West. This would change with more data from countries like Slovakia, Romania, Moldova, Ukraine etc.

 

[torzio]

It shows what it can show, based on the available modern data, with all the sampling bias, migrations and changes which happened in the last thousands of years. Therefore its valuable, but it doesn't tell us where a haplogroup started. Even the diversity view can be misleading, because even "diversity can migrate" and sampling bias affects it too. If e.g. in an area of Western Ukraine lived a Daco-Thracian tribe which was 80 % E-V13, but this migrated away and its remnants being almost completely annihilated by later migrations, it won't show up. And if they cremated, we also have a problem with their ancient DNA track record. Only dense sampling all around throughout the ages can help and testing way more moderns from all relevant countries.

Phylogeographer has an additional big disadvantage of being based on YFull only. On YFull are more Albanians tested than on FTDNA, but nearly all other people have more people tested on FTDNA, and their data is completely missing. E.g. some months ago (don't know if it changed), there was probably just one Moldovan E-V13 tested, just ONE! On FTDNA its not a lot as well, but at least there are 3, which is still a joke considering the total percentage of E-V13 in Moldova. For Romanians its 10 vs. 20, of which a lot are no ethnic Romanians, but still double the time people tested on FTDNA BigY in comparison to YFull.
The most extreme its for Bulgaria, because it has 60 people, mostly ethnic Bulgarians, on FTDNA tested, yet on YFull are just 11! So almost 6 times the size of FTDNA sample, with Bulgarians being in many important branches and well-represented. You find them on YFull as well, but much fewer of them. That's all data which phylogeographer doesn't take into account.

The FTDNA data being better represented on its new Discovery tool site and on scaledinnovation: http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html


But if tracking down various subclades with scaledinnovation, they constantly being pulled too far to the West. This would change with more data from countries like Slovakia, Romania, Moldova, Ukraine etc.

ok

scaledinnovation works best if you remove "smooth path"

 

[Riverman]

ok
scaledinnovation works best if you remove "smooth path"

Sometimes, yes. However, if the data is lacking and some geographical regions are overrepresented, it will be off anyway. E.g., for my upstream branch, the English and Albanians are disproportionally well-represented in comparison to Germans, Czechs, Ukrainians, Bulgarians and Romanians among others. Its good they are well tested, but the others are not. Therefore everything will be pulled either this or that way.

 

[torzio]

feb 2023 map

remove the 0 to present and one can see the true picture

 

[J Man]

Researchgate is showing an increase in publication for Carles Fox, it takes a day for the paper to show up. Let's hope it's the much awaited Serbian paper.

Unfortunately still no ancient Serbia paper from what I can see.

Sent from my SM-A505W using Tapatalk

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Unfortunately still no ancient Serbia paper from what I can see.

Sent from my SM-A505W using Tapatalk

Yeah I saw a paper earlier today about north sea(Vikings) but now it's shadowed. The current increase in tally (297) likely relates to this phantom paper.