PaleoRevenge
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Alright, I am going to start the new year with a summary of my current understanding, with a special focus on the central Balkan group. I think this year will be massive in terms of data releases. I read something interesting on AG, posted almost two years ago(March 2021), by some rrenjet board member.
This is how I am understanding and reconstructing the events described.
1) The first batch, which the Southern Arc team was comparing with rrenjet database was clearly the BA batch (Shkreli I8471 and Cinamak I14689), (this event occurred two years ago).
2) The 2nd batch was supposed to be from 1,400 - 700 B.C. (Cinamak and Barc) but it turned out the Korca samples were mostly contaminated with gypsies (they wuz da real kangs). We did get one LBA sample that will be one day redated and it turned out to be PF7563 (this batch was not yet evaluated with rrenjet as of March 2021)
3) He claims there is more down the pipeline, 100 additional Alb samples, which I'm going to assume will be part of the next southern Arc series and were likely evaluated in 2022.
If E-V13 was found with this later larger batch, I think we would have heard some bragging and nagging by now from the moles and their fan girls.
This is a summary of my current understanding of the LBA-IA Balkans.
1) Illyrians are a west Balkan group dominated by J2b. They are associated Cetina, and later with Glasinac culture and their derivatives. In BA they had not properly expanded into Mat valley, even if there were some Cetina colonies in central Albania.
2) South Albania in LBA was dominated by matt-painted culture, and the leading haplogroup was PF5762-3 and perhaps Z2103 as well. In what way they were related to northern Greek(Doric) groups is yet to be revealed, because we have zero samples from northern Greece. Matt-painted will show relation with Messapii, which some scholars believe were different from Peucuti and Dauni.
3) The so called Messapii will have their own regional characteristics, with the actual Messappi being high on PF5763 and Z2103, and the northern zone having J2b-L283 inclinations. Messappi are linked with matt-painted culture which is not Cetina or Cetina derived. There are Cetina sites in the area of Dauni. I also believe post LBA, Illyrian domination, expansion and gene-flow would have continued into the IA, until the Greeks broke their naval hegemony.
4) I think Vatin group is the parent group of Albanian Z2103. Initially this was only a intuition when Hawk asked me of my opinion, but now I see Serbian archeologists think it played a leading role in the formation of Brnjica culture. Vatin was overcome by Urnfield culture and it fled south where it's elements formed Bernjica culture (and possibly Paracin, though there is not much info on this culture, an assumption on my part).
-Elements of Vatin also flee into southern Albania and merge with the local matt-painted culture, perhaps it this through this impulse that the matt-painted Messapi are linked to modern Albanian.
-Another branch of Vatin found itself in eastern Bosnia where it fused with the early inland Illyrians, whether this is a dead-end branch or not, remains to be seen if Z2103 emerges with north-eastern Illyrians.
-Brnjica flourished and grew fat before BA collapse, however the channel ware folks invade and devastate Brnjica. Many of it's member's flee south and form the Paeoni tribes. How much did these Paeoni mix with the previous natives, and the channel ware people remains to be seen.
-Brnjica is not entirely eliminated, elements of it survive in it's historical region and they reemerge in IA, though under heavy influence and cultural ties with the Daco-Thracian world. It does look like the pre-Glasinac Dardani where a hybrid people of E-V13 and Z2103.
-Glasinac expands east in the 8th-7th century BC. Their expansion meets stiff resistence and fails to penetrate beyond Ibar-Metohija line.
-Some Serbian archeologists have coined a term for non-Glasinac Dardani, Balevac group. I do not know if the Dardani mentioned by Greeks as a kingdom, includes both the Glasinac and Brnjica-channel ware dervied groups or it is a tribal designation solely based on one of the groups.
- Johane brought up the low tumuli dented ware. There is not much info on this group, other than they came from the east and Danubian region. Without knowing anything about this culture, they sound like Scytho-Thracians or Thraco-Cimmerians based on the timeline. If so, they were a flash flood kind of event, and would have dissolved into the locals pretty fast.
5) North of the Dardani is a massive channel ware derived series of cultures that belong to the Daco-Thracian zone (Zlot group and Bosut group). They too might carry some Vatin-Brnjica substrate, but the core of this genetic legacy remains with Brnjica derived groups.
6) Trebenishte group represents the western most group of the Macedonian tribes and so far have yielded J2a.
This is how I am understanding and reconstructing the events described.
1) The first batch, which the Southern Arc team was comparing with rrenjet database was clearly the BA batch (Shkreli I8471 and Cinamak I14689), (this event occurred two years ago).
2) The 2nd batch was supposed to be from 1,400 - 700 B.C. (Cinamak and Barc) but it turned out the Korca samples were mostly contaminated with gypsies (they wuz da real kangs). We did get one LBA sample that will be one day redated and it turned out to be PF7563 (this batch was not yet evaluated with rrenjet as of March 2021)
3) He claims there is more down the pipeline, 100 additional Alb samples, which I'm going to assume will be part of the next southern Arc series and were likely evaluated in 2022.
If E-V13 was found with this later larger batch, I think we would have heard some bragging and nagging by now from the moles and their fan girls.
This is a summary of my current understanding of the LBA-IA Balkans.
1) Illyrians are a west Balkan group dominated by J2b. They are associated Cetina, and later with Glasinac culture and their derivatives. In BA they had not properly expanded into Mat valley, even if there were some Cetina colonies in central Albania.
2) South Albania in LBA was dominated by matt-painted culture, and the leading haplogroup was PF5762-3 and perhaps Z2103 as well. In what way they were related to northern Greek(Doric) groups is yet to be revealed, because we have zero samples from northern Greece. Matt-painted will show relation with Messapii, which some scholars believe were different from Peucuti and Dauni.
3) The so called Messapii will have their own regional characteristics, with the actual Messappi being high on PF5763 and Z2103, and the northern zone having J2b-L283 inclinations. Messappi are linked with matt-painted culture which is not Cetina or Cetina derived. There are Cetina sites in the area of Dauni. I also believe post LBA, Illyrian domination, expansion and gene-flow would have continued into the IA, until the Greeks broke their naval hegemony.
4) I think Vatin group is the parent group of Albanian Z2103. Initially this was only a intuition when Hawk asked me of my opinion, but now I see Serbian archeologists think it played a leading role in the formation of Brnjica culture. Vatin was overcome by Urnfield culture and it fled south where it's elements formed Bernjica culture (and possibly Paracin, though there is not much info on this culture, an assumption on my part).
-Elements of Vatin also flee into southern Albania and merge with the local matt-painted culture, perhaps it this through this impulse that the matt-painted Messapi are linked to modern Albanian.
-Another branch of Vatin found itself in eastern Bosnia where it fused with the early inland Illyrians, whether this is a dead-end branch or not, remains to be seen if Z2103 emerges with north-eastern Illyrians.
-Brnjica flourished and grew fat before BA collapse, however the channel ware folks invade and devastate Brnjica. Many of it's member's flee south and form the Paeoni tribes. How much did these Paeoni mix with the previous natives, and the channel ware people remains to be seen.
-Brnjica is not entirely eliminated, elements of it survive in it's historical region and they reemerge in IA, though under heavy influence and cultural ties with the Daco-Thracian world. It does look like the pre-Glasinac Dardani where a hybrid people of E-V13 and Z2103.
-Glasinac expands east in the 8th-7th century BC. Their expansion meets stiff resistence and fails to penetrate beyond Ibar-Metohija line.
-Some Serbian archeologists have coined a term for non-Glasinac Dardani, Balevac group. I do not know if the Dardani mentioned by Greeks as a kingdom, includes both the Glasinac and Brnjica-channel ware dervied groups or it is a tribal designation solely based on one of the groups.
- Johane brought up the low tumuli dented ware. There is not much info on this group, other than they came from the east and Danubian region. Without knowing anything about this culture, they sound like Scytho-Thracians or Thraco-Cimmerians based on the timeline. If so, they were a flash flood kind of event, and would have dissolved into the locals pretty fast.
5) North of the Dardani is a massive channel ware derived series of cultures that belong to the Daco-Thracian zone (Zlot group and Bosut group). They too might carry some Vatin-Brnjica substrate, but the core of this genetic legacy remains with Brnjica derived groups.
6) Trebenishte group represents the western most group of the Macedonian tribes and so far have yielded J2a.
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