To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

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@Hawk

You should read what you're posting because nothing justifies your wild claims especially the stuff about the "expansion" of the "Brnjica culture" or the Macedonians from the Central Balkans or the ludicrous "Macedonians and/or Dorians from Brnjica" that Derite was propagating on anthrogenica before the got banned . Alaj published most of the actual excavations in 2019. The Bërnicë site wasn't even properly surveyed until then.

The term "propaganda" applies to the banned people who claim ludicrous theories about Macedonians and Dorians from the central Balkans.

The necropolis (Bërnicë) and the site Trudë date to the transitional era (11th-9th centuries BC until the 7th century BC) No metallic objects found at Trudë. A sword and few other metallic objects were found at Bërnicë e Poshtme. This is what Alaj published about the site.

The supposed "Brnjica pottery" is really just a regional style which was popular at one point during the end of the LBA in the nearby regions and then was just abandoned. It didn't expand with any "invasion" like some here like to fantasize. The most ridiculous thing about is that most "local" finds of this type of pottery are found north and east of Kosova, but not in Kosova itself.

The motifs of this style belong to the older Middle Bronze Age traditions of the central Balkans in this group of sites (note the term "group" not "culture"; get an archaeology textbook and learn the difference between the two terms in archaeology)

The source is older than the latest excavations. I'm posting it as an argument for chronology:

The Oxford Handbook of the European Bronze Age pp855:

https://i.ibb.co/4pnLgxJ/strazavagroup.png

So, if someone just said that some sites in the central Balkans continued some traditions which already existed in the MBA without claiming some expansive "culture" which doesn't exist or some connection to Macedonians and Dorians who invaded the south (lol), it would be another argument for local Balkan continuity for any population which lived there.

The problem starts when people copy fringe Yugoslav nationalist ideas and try to sell them as something else (Macedonians, Dorians, the "non-Illyrian component in the Dardani", "Brnjica invasion" etc etc)

For all effects and purposes, it would even be reasonable to say that Logkas is an earlier extension of the IE groups of the central Balkans and that maybe the people who lived in the region of Hisar were similar to this group. This is an entirely different argument and context which is debatable, but it's unrelated to everything else which is spammed to death pointlessly.
 
@Hawk

You should read what you're posting because nothing justifies your wild claims especially the stuff about the "expansion" of the "Brnjica culture" or the Macedonians from the Central Balkans or the ludicrous "Macedonians and/or Dorians from Brnjica" that Derite was propagating on anthrogenica before the got banned . Alaj published most of the actual excavations in 2019. The Bërnicë site wasn't even properly surveyed until then.

The term "propaganda" applies to the banned people who claim ludicrous theories about Macedonians and Dorians from the central Balkans.

The necropolis (Bërnicë) and the site Trudë date to the transitional era (11th-9th centuries BC until the 7th century BC) No metallic objects found at Trudë. A sword and few other metallic objects were found at Bërnicë e Poshtme. This is what Alaj published about the site.

The supposed "Brnjica pottery" is really just a regional style which was popular at one point during the end of the LBA in the nearby regions and then was just abandoned. It didn't expand with any "invasion" like some here like to fantasize. The most ridiculous thing about is that most "local" finds of this type of pottery are found north and east of Kosova, but not in Kosova itself.

The motifs of this style belong to the older Middle Bronze Age traditions of the central Balkans in this group of sites (note the term "group" not "culture"; get an archaeology textbook and learn the difference between the two terms in archaeology)

The source is older than the latest excavations. I'm posting it as an argument for chronology:

The Oxford Handbook of the European Bronze Age pp855:

https://i.ibb.co/4pnLgxJ/strazavagroup.png

So, if someone just said that some sites in the central Balkans continued some traditions which already existed in the MBA without claiming some expansive "culture" which doesn't exist or some connection to Macedonians and Dorians who invaded the south (lol), it would be another argument for local Balkan continuity for any population which lived there.

The problem starts when people copy fringe Yugoslav nationalist ideas and try to sell them as something else (Macedonians, Dorians, the "non-Illyrian component in the Dardani", "Brnjica invasion" etc etc)

For all effects and purposes, it would even be reasonable to say that Logkas is an earlier extension of the IE groups of the central Balkans and that maybe the people who lived in the region of Hisar were similar to this group. This is an entirely different argument and context which is debatable, but it's unrelated to everything else which is spammed to death pointlessly.

I said there was a Brnjica Culture, not implying anything else. It existed and it's officially supported by both Yugoslav and Albanian archaeologists.

Funny you say that, the "Yugoslav" guy who laid ground for studies of all these cultures had an Albanian paternal ancestor and similar Z5017 subclade as you.
 
I said there was a Brnjica Culture, not implying anything else. It existed and it's officially supported by both Yugoslav and Albanian archaeologists.

Funny you say that, the "Yugoslav" guy who laid ground for studies of all these cultures had an Albanian paternal ancestor and similar Z5017 subclade as you.


Most of this ancestors were I-Y3120 Serbs, that's not an Albanian despite the parental haplogroup and the ethnicity of his ancestor hundreds of years ago. Besides, it doesn't even matter for research. He could be haplogroup Q and have something useful to provide.

I didn't connect you to the crazy stuff about Macedonians etc. Only Derite and his 7-8 banned socks. I told you why you shouldn't think that this is a culture which expanded etc and why it's not even helpful for someone to support such a thing. It's not even explaining anything as a theory. It's pointless to mention it as related to R-Z2103 because it doesn't require any central Balkan location as it's present in Daunians, southern Illyrians, northern Croatia (EBA), Maros culture (EBA), Northern Macedonia (LBA-IA) and basically everywhere in our parts of the Balkans. So if it's already been found in all of these other groups, it'll be probably be found just north and east of Kosova too.
 
It is remarkable how one can straight up neglect and refuse scientific data on which archeologists over the time have worked and paved the way for present and future research.

Such an argumentation in which one lumps together archeological complexes, one is not even able to name, would be strongly refuted by any serious academic. Here and there, sure, but what is the archeological context of that "here" and "there". What is the statistics of the occurrence of certain data, what are the implications genetic data provide for already mapped out archeological data etc.

The problem here lies within the addressee that obviously lacks the archeological foreknowledge and additionally has a bias based on which he makes self confident false statements.
 
It is remarkable how one can straight up neglect and refuse scientific data on which archeologists over the time have worked and paved the way for present and future research.

Such an argumentation in which one lumps together archeological complexes, one is not even able to name, would be strongly refuted by any serious academic. Here and there, sure, but what is the archeological context of that "here" and "there". What is the statistics of the occurrence of certain data, what are the implications genetic data provide for already mapped out archeological data etc.

The problem here lies within the addressee that obviously lacks the archeological foreknowledge and additionally has a bias based on which he makes self confident false statements.

It truly is remarkable.

He is some irrelevant nobody trying to claim the authors of these papers (Barry Molloy is an Irish archaeologist of the Aegean from the University of Dublin, for example) know less than him and are "fringe" as opposed to him (?), and that this culture they are writing about doesn't in fact exist :embarassed:. The desperation...

Here are 49 Brnjica sites just in the Morava Basin:

PhgjG3R.png



He is trying to downplay the very codified and specific pottery characteristic of this culture, but it is useless, since it's already been established that this was a tight network trading and interacting with each other, with characteristic metalwork, etc.
 
Brnjica is definitely real and not just recognised by Serbian, but also by e.g. Greek and Bulgarian archaeologists. They seem to have survived and being Northern influenced themselves, but probably they are more related to the later Paeonians than to the E-V13 rich Thracians.

Compare also with e.g. this map:
BEFORE_PHILIP.gif

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/images/BEFORE_PHILIP.gif
 
Brnjica is definitely real and not just recognised by Serbian, but also by e.g. Greek and Bulgarian archaeologists. They seem to have survived and being Northern influenced themselves, but probably they are more related to the later Paeonians than to the E-V13 rich Thracians.

Compare also with e.g. this map:
BEFORE_PHILIP.gif

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/images/BEFORE_PHILIP.gif
Yes. Whilst the map of Paleo-Balkan languages, according to which I think was Duridanov, also has some errors I think it is more accurate then the map you've posted in regards to Paeonian presence as they are more widespread then in the map you've linked.
 
Yes. Whilst the map of Paleo-Balkan languages, according to which I think was Duridanov, also has some errors I think it is more accurate then the map you've posted in regards to Paeonian presence as they are more widespread then in the map you've linked.

I know its not particularly accurate and represents the period of the their retreat anyway, but nevertheless, you see the strong overlap of the remaining Paeonian core with the Brnjica distribution, and clearly not that of Thracians or Greeks. They might have incorporated some Channelled Ware/G?va-related elements in the process of the LBA-EIA transition, but that's up to debate.
 
Brnjica is definitely real and not just recognised by Serbian, but also by e.g. Greek and Bulgarian archaeologists. They seem to have survived and being Northern influenced themselves, but probably they are more related to the later Paeonians than to the E-V13 rich Thracians.

Compare also with e.g. this map:
BEFORE_PHILIP.gif

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/images/BEFORE_PHILIP.gif


another fake map

we know epirus went from the entrance of the gulf of Corinth in NW Greece to Durres ............confirmed by the Taulantii king who reigned at Lezhe and north of it and Phyrhus of Epirus

Lezhë[a] (Albanian: [ˈlɛˈʒə], definite Albanian form: Lezha) is a city in the Republic of Albania and seat of Lezhë County and Lezhë Municipality.

One of the main strongholds of the Labeatai,[2] the earliest of the fortification walls of Lezhë are of typical Illyrian construction and are dated to the late 4th century BC.[3] Lezhë was one of the main centres of the Illyrian kingdom.[4] During the conflicts with Macedon, it was captured by Philip V becoming the Macedonian outlet to the Adriatic Sea.[5] The city was later recovered by the Illyrians. It was subjected to Rome after the Roman-Illyrian wars and the fall of Gentius' realm.[4]



I do not know why people try to undermine the history of the Epirote all the time....the Greeks and Albanians are both to blame for this
 
The E-L618 sample from LBA Crete

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]XAN016[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #90FF00, align: right"]0.02826289[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #AFFF00, align: right"]0.03426551[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Mycenaean:I9041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B3FF00, align: right"]0.03511743[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7219[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B3FF00, align: right"]0.03519584[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15582[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B6FF00, align: right"]0.03566543[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BAFF00, align: right"]0.03654680[/TD]
[TD]TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Degirmendere_Anc:I20230[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BBFF00, align: right"]0.03661083[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Kastrouli_Anc:I17962[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BBFF00, align: right"]0.03674387[/TD]
[TD]Levant_Ashkelon_IA1:ASH068[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BCFF00, align: right"]0.03691274[/TD]
[TD]Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BEFF00, align: right"]0.03717932[/TD]
[TD]TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Degirmendere_Anc:I20257[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BEFF00, align: right"]0.03727606[/TD]
[TD]HUN_early_Avar:SZK102[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C1FF00, align: right"]0.03786410[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C1FF00, align: right"]0.03789753[/TD]
[TD]HUN_Avar_Early_Tisza:I18185[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C4FF00, align: right"]0.03851302[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10945[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CBFF00, align: right"]0.03988562[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19366[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CFFF00, align: right"]0.04051008[/TD]
[TD]HUN_Avar_Early_Kövegy:I16750[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CFFF00, align: right"]0.04051249[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7218[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D0FF00, align: right"]0.04079250[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15571[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D0FF00, align: right"]0.04081910[/TD]
[TD]BGR_Krepost_N:I0679_d[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D3FF00, align: right"]0.04136443[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o:RMPR437b[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D4FF00, align: right"]0.04148442[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10948[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D6FF00, align: right"]0.04193270[/TD]
[TD]BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20185[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D9FF00, align: right"]0.04259366[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_409BCE:I17866[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DAFF00, align: right"]0.04281118[/TD]
[TD]TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Degirmendere_Anc:I20233[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DBFF00, align: right"]0.04287054[/TD]
[TD]TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Degirmendere_Anc:I20226[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DBFF00, align: right"]0.04299962[/TD]
[TD]MKD_Anc:I7233[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DCFF00, align: right"]0.04316438[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Mycenaean:I9006[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DFFF00, align: right"]0.04375690[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13514[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E2FF00, align: right"]0.04437619[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Mycenaean:I9010[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E3FF00, align: right"]0.04448002[/TD]
[TD]HUN_middlelate_Avar:KK1245[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E5FF00, align: right"]0.04497805[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR137[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E8FF00, align: right"]0.04552189[/TD]
[TD]TUR_Aegean_Izmir_Yassitepe_MBA:I5737[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E8FF00, align: right"]0.04553622[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13506[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E9FF00, align: right"]0.04561191[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0071[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EAFF00, align: right"]0.04592217[/TD]
[TD]BGR_Anc:I19500[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EBFF00, align: right"]0.04603831[/TD]
[TD]BGR_IA:I5769[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EBFF00, align: right"]0.04605006[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Isola_Sacra:R11109[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EBFF00, align: right"]0.04606837[/TD]
[TD]HRV_Zadar_Poliklinika:R3746[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EBFF00, align: right"]0.04616087[/TD]
[TD]TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Degirmendere_Anc:I20232[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECFF00, align: right"]0.04618294[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7217[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECFF00, align: right"]0.04624465[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3920[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECFF00, align: right"]0.04632050[/TD]
[TD]SRB_Viminacium:R6756[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EDFF00, align: right"]0.04644224[/TD]
[TD]TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Degirmendere_Anc:I20227[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EFFF00, align: right"]0.04686309[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR43[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1FF00, align: right"]0.04716964[/TD]
[TD]TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Degirmendere_Anc:I20229[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1FF00, align: right"]0.04722906[/TD]
[TD]BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20184[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F3FF00, align: right"]0.04763457[/TD]
[TD]BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20186[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F4FF00, align: right"]0.04785218[/TD]
[TD]HUN_middle_Avar:ALT224[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F4FF00, align: right"]0.04786554[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F4FF00, align: right"]0.04792241[/TD]
[TD]ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_C:I15623[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]




[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: XAN016
Distance: 2.0311% / 0.02031137[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]34.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Marmara_Mentese_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]14.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]BGR_Yabalkovo_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]14.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]13.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]ARM_Aknashen_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]12.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Steppe_Proto_Yamnaya[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]5.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]ARM_Masis_Blur_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]2.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Mazandaran_Golestan_10KYA[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]1.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]MNE_Vrbicka_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]1.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]West_Africa_10KYA[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]South_Baltic_Coast_10KYA[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Sahul_Continent_10KYA[/TD]



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: XAN016
Distance: 1.9565% / 0.01956492[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]61.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]14.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Poland[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]10.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Steppe[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]10.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]GEO_CHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]2.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]1.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]ZAF_400BP[/TD]


Using this model:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...an-case/page26?p=655670&viewfull=1#post655670


He prefers Aegean Neolithic over Carpathian, Bulgarian, West Balkans.



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: XAN016
Distance: 2.5655% / 0.02565534[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]59.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Aegean_Neolithic[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]27.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]West_Asian[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]8.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]4.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Baltic[/TD]

Worth noting that he is of a parallel E-L618 branch not ancestral to E-V13. This assuming if the SNP calls are correct and the reading was done correctly.
 
Last edited:
Well, i jumped into conclusions, it looks like XAN040, XAN17 and the E-L618 XAN016 prefer HUN_Neolithic over others. No traces of ALB, SRB, MKD Neolithic.

It's like these three samples are mostly HUN_Neolithic + West Asian + Yamnaya and other in smaller percentages unlike the other samples which have elevated GRC_Neolithic, MNE and ALB and BGR Neolithic.

Would be good to see the XAN040 Y-DNA, since this is the sample with the most leaning toward HUN_Neolithic, it's like 50% HUN_Neolithic while E-L618 is approximately ~40% HUN_Neolithic-like. Percentages from G25 shouldn't be taken too literal, it's just general leaning. They shouldn't be interpreted literally.
 
Awesome, Xan030 is as I expected, an actual BA collapse Dorian invader. 100% match with the MKD Ohrid Group.


YQnBEsg.png
 
Yeah, also notice the HUN Bronze Age, i don't think it's coincidence. Eastern Hungary, Northern Serbia and Western Romania triangle looks more and more probable.
 
Yeah, also notice the HUN Bronze Age, i don't think it's coincidence. Eastern Hungary, Northern Serbia and Western Romania triangle looks more and more probable.

Also, what is the label X_ME?
 
@Riverman @PaleoRevenge

Very correct.

Yamnaya - Balkan Yamnaya - EBA Theopetra like (Balkan Yamnaya derived) - Helladic MBA Logkas like - Mycenaean Era

The pathway of Proto-Greek R1b-PF7562 and I-L701 in Greece can be attributed to the aforementioned cultural complexes and their respective time frames and, as I said before, refusing scientific data is another issue in itself. There is some other "R1b" to be analyzed in this recent paper that is highly likely to be PF7562 too!

[TABLE="class: t1"]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I14689[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]2663-2472 BCE [/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Balkan Yamnaya_EBA, Çinamak, Albania[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]R1b-PF7562?[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]L23-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID G23 [/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]2335–2140 BCE[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]EBA_Theopetra, North West Thessaly Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]I-L701[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I13518[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1200-1070 BCE[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA, Pylos, Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]R1b-PF7562>PF7563[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I13506[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1200-1070 BCE[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA, Pylos, Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]R1b-PF7562>PF7563[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I19364[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1200-1070 BCE[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA, Pylos, Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]R1b-PF7562?[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]L23-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I10377[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]700-500 BCE[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]MKD_Anc, Post Brnjica, Bucinci-Skopje, North Macedonia[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]R1b-PF7562?[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]L23-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I14688[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]450 BCE[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]ALB_Çinamak_Anc, Post Brnjica, Çinamak, Albania[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]R1b-PF7562>PF7563[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Disclaimer: not 100% sure on the L23- read for the Bucinci sample.

Bruzmi/WikipediaMaleschreiber said:
If he had a profile similar to Mycenaeans, it would be very plausible to consider this R-PF7562* as descended from Proto-Greeks
...
I don't think that he's the descendant of Proto-Greeks but that he rather came quite recently from somewhere in the Balkans.
This is a false statement as the Mycenaean R1b-PF7562 samples from Pylos have a very classic Mycenaean auDNA profile and there is absolutely nothing foreign about it. Just as there is nothing „foreign“ or unusual about XAN030 being derived from EBA Theopetra like Proto-Greeks. He plots east of the Mygdalia samples and South East of North Western positioned EBA Cetina.

[TABLE="class: t1"]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]
Distance to:
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]XAN030[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]
3.22450734
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]74.00% G23_Theopetra_Aegean_2335–2140_calBCE + 26.00%GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13531 [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]
3.39644892
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]68.40% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 31.60% GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13531 [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]
3.61728891
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]67.60% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 32.40% GRC_Anc_lc:I17960 [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]
3.69196122
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]72.60% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 27.40% APO043[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]
3.73885255
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]72.60% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 27.40% APO037[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Last edited:
Yeah, also notice the HUN Bronze Age, i don't think it's coincidence. Eastern Hungary, Northern Serbia and Western Romania triangle looks more and more probable.

Also, what is the label X_ME?

I've created a really good list of what I labeled ME ancestry, with zero Yamnaya/Corded mixture. Some people would not like it as they want to treat East Med as a real profile, but really it is just transitional. What this does, it prevents the calc from picking the most ME shifted group(Thracians, Myceneans) as ancestry component as a shortcut, but will actually combine various IE groups with ME groups to get to point A.
 
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