Guess the ethnicity of this reconstruction

[Northener]

Please give it a shot, it's a reconstruction so not optimal....

 

[Angela]

Please give it a shot, it's a reconstruction so not optimal....

Scandinavian, maybe. If not, Dutch or Western German, although they've given him really brutal, archaic features, which is either a mistake, or he's some newly arrived mostly steppe and WHG type.

Certainly don't see much influence from Neolithic farmers.

Unless the pigmentation is based on snps from the skull or other remains, it remains unknown.

 

[Northener]

Scandinavian, maybe. If not, Dutch or Western German, although they've given him really brutal, archaic features, which is either a mistake, or he's some newly arrived mostly steppe and WHG type.

Certainly don't see much influence from Neolithic farmers.

Unless the pigmentation is based on snps from the skull or other remains, it remains unknown.

Indeed spot on!

It was a man (nickname Cees) from the Single Grave Culture, in North-Holland.

I guess Moesan would say: 'brünnoid' - 'capelloid' type, but a robust one.

https://onh.nl/verhaal/achterdeschermen-de-restauratie-van-een-enkelgrafbeker-uit-aartswoud

 

[MOESAN]

I don't know if we can rely on the pigmentation aspect, but it isn't the most important.
Not knowing the datation, it's difficult to assign it a precise place in Europe. I would have preferred a localisation between Northwestern Europe and Northeastern Europe, Steppes in it. North surer since Neolithic.
Globally, yes, Northerner (and Angela), predominantly 'capelloid/brünnoid' with some increments of 'croma' (the protuding chin, and small orbits) but individual variations existed since long ago. I would have preferred have more angles of the nude skull...
Curiously, he was more primitive than the mean of these types, concerning his al strong alveolar prognathism (but when you look at my skull (radiography, no emotion, I' am not writing from Hell or Heaven) or at Schwarzenegger face, both of the 20th century...

 

[Northener]

I don't know if we can rely on the pigmentation aspect, but it isn't the most important.
Not knowing the datation, it's difficult to assign it a precise place in Europe. I would have preferred a localisation between Northwestern Europe and Northeastern Europe, Steppes in it. North surer since Neolithic.
Globally, yes, Northerner (and Angela), predominantly 'capelloid/brünnoid' with some increments of 'croma' (the protuding chin, and small orbits) but individual variations existed since long ago. I would have preferred have more angles of the nude skull...
Curiously, he was more primitive than the mean of these types, concerning his al strong alveolar prognathism (but when you look at my skull (radiography, no emotion, I' am not writing from Hell or Heaven) or at Schwarzenegger face, both of the 20th century...

The reconstruction is from 2013 just before the "DNA hausse" so I guess the pigmentation SNP's weren't available, so they choose kind of North Dutch average....

What do you mean with small orbits Moesan? The skull is imo more insightful than the reconstruction, and imp seems to have a moi pointy chin? Not very squarish imo.

By the way i remember you said about me,

result of 'cromagnon' and 'brünn' crossings of Mesolithic, where the 'brünnoid' phylum dominates, surely even more on the lateral view

 

[MOESAN]

@Northerner
aside precision: I'm speaking of features evoking ancient 'croma' and 'brünn'/'c-capelle' and not of direct descendance, it's why I do for the most with '-oid' terms, but I know you know that!
Long before the times this man lived, crossing between far descendants of both phyla had begun to mix one to another, with local different predominances. So features of everykind could be found on the bones constitution of people. I think the most of ressemblances in shapes and size are inherited from far ascendants, but some unrelated convergences may be at play sometimes and visual observations are not an auDNA certificat.
Concerning eye sockets, the 'cromagnoid' had smaller and proportionally lower ones that the 'brünnoid' as a whole; even if the 'capelloid' side of the second group of archaic Europeans had rather low orbits too, the allover size was greater than in 'cromagnoid'.
Concerning the chin, old 'croma' was broad-square-jawed at the level of the bigonials but his chin was protuding onwards, very more than in the other group, 'c-capelle/brünn'.
I can't say more. It's just eye catching, not molecular science.

 

[Dalmat]

Looks neo danubian to me, like this Russian

And it makes sense if this guy was pre EEF expansion, and is more similar to people with least EEF today, Balts and North Russians

 

[Northener]

Looks neo danubian to me, like this Russian

And it makes sense if this guy was pre EEF expansion, and is more similar to people with least EEF today, Balts and North Russians

Although autosomal DNA doen't equal certain phenotypes (exactly), I don't think this is the case, this is a Corded Ware phenotype, and this is more present in nowadays North Dutch (in this example Finn/ Finn mom) than in Russians or Baltics.

 

[MOESAN]

@Norhterner
Thanks for the dates you showed me.
I was not referring to your affirmations when i evoked the links/no link between features and paleo pop's, it was just to protect me against eventual remarks because I had been "attacked" (in past, and politely) for my referencing to too ancient pops when speaking of features of more close pop's (in time).
Coming to CWC people mean features, as a whole and spite bearing some input of ancient northern pops ("archaic" ones for aspect, present since long ago in all Northern Europe and even in Northeast at those times, shadowed a time by Neolithic southern pop's), average CWC were more high skulled and less "primitive" than this man, their faces were less broad for bizygomatic. Something more 'nordic' + slight 'danubian EEF' than this man. What doesn't exclude some atavism, some resurging of an almost complete set of archaic traits in some individuals not purely local but truly and anciently CWC members from East.
I agree Flanders and the Netherlands shelter one of the less low input of this 'brünnoid' todate, in Northeast Europe, it has been a bit more flooded under other recent types.

 

[Angela]

^^I don't think most people are aware of the "mean" measurements for Corded Ware finds, nor of their pigmentation profile.

I think Coon was the closest.

"[FONT=&quot](4) Corded: Tall stature, means 167-174 cm.; build linear but muscular, perhaps heavier than the Megalithic; extremely longheaded, 194 mm. mean. Vault of great height, means over 140 mm., exceeding breadth; browridges and muscular markings medium to strong; face very long, and of slight to moderate breadth; mandible deep and chin marked, but narrow through gonial angles. Nose leptorrhine [/FONT][FONT=&quot](long narrow nose - Translator's Note)[/FONT][FONT=&quot], often prominent. [/FONT][FONT=&quot](Profile of the skull as seen from above usually takes a form of a long oval with almost parallel sides, which is the Corded type, p. 163 - Translator's Note)[/FONT][FONT=&quot] This type, in western and northern Europe, approaches in some respects the Upper Paleolithic type with which it mixed.[/FONT][FONT=&quot](5) (Afghanian ...A small variety found in Asia Minor Cappadocia, while a larger form commoner farther east, and metrically close to the Corded, may be called Afghanian."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

The same is true for later Bronze Age finds in western Europe.

Early Bronze Age woman from Scotland, "Ava", before her snps were revealed, and after.

 

[Northener]

@Norhterner
Thanks for the dates you showed me.
I was not referring to your affirmations when i evoked the links/no link between features and paleo pop's, it was just to protect me against eventual remarks because I had been "attacked" (in past, and politely) for my referencing to too ancient pops when speaking of features of more close pop's (in time).
Coming to CWC people mean features, as a whole and spite bearing some input of ancient northern pops ("archaic" ones for aspect, present since long ago in all Northern Europe and even in Northeast at those times, shadowed a time by Neolithic southern pop's), average CWC were more high skulled and less "primitive" than this man, their faces were less broad for bizygomatic. Something more 'nordic' + slight 'danubian EEF' than this man. What doesn't exclude some atavism, some resurging of an almost complete set of archaic traits in some individuals not purely local but truly and anciently CWC members from East.
I agree Flanders and the Netherlands shelter one of the less low input of this 'brünnoid' todate, in Northeast Europe, it has been a bit more flooded under other recent types.

Do you have some evidence for the more 'gracile' CW? Sometimes I think that the old anthropologist unto Coon were pretty biased and picture the gracile CW Nordic more gracile than it was In my region I still see lots of robust and broad features.....more than fit in the "nordic" picture

 

[Northener]

^^I don't think most people are aware of the "mean" measurements for Corded Ware finds, nor of their pigmentation profile.

I think Coon was the closest.

"(4) Corded: Tall stature, means 167-174 cm.; build linear but muscular, perhaps heavier than the Megalithic; extremely longheaded, 194 mm. mean. Vault of great height, means over 140 mm., exceeding breadth; browridges and muscular markings medium to strong; face very long, and of slight to moderate breadth; mandible deep and chin marked, but narrow through gonial angles. Nose leptorrhine (long narrow nose - Translator's Note), often prominent. (Profile of the skull as seen from above usually takes a form of a long oval with almost parallel sides, which is the Corded type, p. 163 - Translator's Note) This type, in western and northern Europe, approaches in some respects the Upper Paleolithic type with which it mixed.(5) (Afghanian ...A small variety found in Asia Minor Cappadocia, while a larger form commoner farther east, and metrically close to the Corded, may be called Afghanian."



The same is true for later Bronze Age finds in western Europe.

Early Bronze Age woman from Scotland, "Ava", before her snps were revealed, and after.

Indeed it is- you once showed a graphic if I'm well-that light features were a kind of (sexual) selection from Bronze Age>. See the Iceland Rigspulla, the nobility/jarls was light featured (blond, bleu grey eyes), the farmer middle class/ karls were pictures as somewhat reddish, and the thralls were pictured as swarthy. May be in Iceland also influenced by their mixed Norse/ Celtic, Irish population and divisions, but nevertheless.

I'm convinced that the Bell Beaker influence is underestimated all along the North Sea.....According to Gerhardt (1976) the BB phenotype was dignified by two types one more high skulled 'Aurignacid' (Moesan would probably say Brünn) and one more 'Cro-Magnoid' that got brachycephalized (Moesan would probably say Borreby). And because of those brachycephalization the BB got a marked flat occiput. My impression is that unto today the influence of this phenotypes is big....but not exactly the "Nordid" picture.

 

[Northener]

This is a reconstruction from a "Borreby" Single Grave Culture, imo pretty 'robust':



https://www.ancestralwhispers.org/reconstructions/q337r1a916mkhvz

 

[MOESAN]

^^I don't think most people are aware of the "mean" measurements for Corded Ware finds, nor of their pigmentation profile.

I think Coon was the closest.

"(4) Corded: Tall stature, means 167-174 cm.; build linear but muscular, perhaps heavier than the Megalithic; extremely longheaded, 194 mm. mean. Vault of great height, means over 140 mm., exceeding breadth; browridges and muscular markings medium to strong; face very long, and of slight to moderate breadth; mandible deep and chin marked, but narrow through gonial angles. Nose leptorrhine (long narrow nose - Translator's Note), often prominent. (Profile of the skull as seen from above usually takes a form of a long oval with almost parallel sides, which is the Corded type, p. 163 - Translator's Note) This type, in western and northern Europe, approaches in some respects the Upper Paleolithic type with which it mixed.(5) (Afghanian ...A small variety found in Asia Minor Cappadocia, while a larger form commoner farther east, and metrically close to the Corded, may be called Afghanian."



The same is true for later Bronze Age finds in western Europe.

Early Bronze Age woman from Scotland, "Ava", before her snps were revealed, and after.

Agree concerning Coon. But I don't see any closeness between this "Scot woman and the 'corded' type.
Nevertheless, this "mise au point" concerning some hazardous reconstructions for pigmentation is a good thing!

 

[MOESAN]

Do you have some evidence for the more 'gracile' CW? Sometimes I think that the old anthropologist unto Coon were pretty biased and picture the gracile CW Nordic more gracile than it was In my region I still see lots of robust and broad features.....more than fit in the "nordic" picture

Whatever may be said about Coon statements concerning superiority or inferiority, the most of his statements concerning physical measures was correct. Today Northern Germanics people are far from the 'nordic' and from the 'corded' type (other accretions than typical 'nordic'), and this has been said by Coon himself. Resurgence of diverse 'borreby'like people and also non-brachycephalized archaic types issued of the "aborigenes" pre-neolithic and who had partly taken their "revenge" over the gracile farmers in the Late Neolithic pop's (Trichterbecher/Funnelbeaker).

 

[MOESAN]

@Northerner
Thanks for the pics of their 'borreby' of SGC. (IMO their reconstruction seems giving always a too long fleshy nose, I would guess their noses as a whole had more upturned tips. Maybe they had all the SNP's to reconstruct it? Or only based themselves on the bony aspect (nose hole), what is an error, I think).
That said, yes, I personnally think the the BB input has been of some importance, but BB brachy people were not only 'borreby'like, they had some balkanic 'dinaric' input too, mixed with it and a bit with some 'corded' types, at least in Northwestern Germany/the Netherlands and in ancient Britain. I guess BB's got even more northwards and played a role in the Western Norway pop 's making.
WHAT WOULD PLEASE ME WOULD BE HAVING ACCESS TO OTHER SGC PEOPLE if you can provide this to me. It woul be super!

 

[Angela]

Agree concerning Coon. But I don't see any closeness between this "Scot woman and the 'corded' type.
Nevertheless, this "mise au point" concerning some hazardous reconstructions for pigmentation is a good thing!

Just to be clear, I don't think she's Corded looking AT ALL, nor is the man who is the subject of the original post.

I also agree that however wrong these anthropologists were in their views politically, of them all Coon, imo, is the most consistent and best in terms of the delineation of the different "types".

What some people just don't see or understand is that there are a lot of non-Corded and non-Nordic looking people in the Scandinavian countries, in Germany, etc. and BB people were only about 50% steppe. This confounding of Paleolithic/Mesolithic phenotypes with those of admixed groups like BB is not supported by the evidence.

 

[torzio]

Agree concerning Coon. But I don't see any closeness between this "Scot woman and the 'corded' type.
Nevertheless, this "mise au point" concerning some hazardous reconstructions for pigmentation is a good thing!

I see swiss or austrian with the "round" face

 

[Northener]

Just to be clear, I don't think she's Corded looking AT ALL, nor is the man who is the subject of the original post.

I also agree that however wrong these anthropologists were in their views politically, of them all Coon, imo, is the most consistent and best in terms of the delineation of the different "types".

What some people just don't see or understand is that there are a lot of non-Corded and non-Nordic looking people in the Scandinavian countries, in Germany, etc. and BB people were only about 50% steppe. This confounding of Paleolithic/Mesolithic phenotypes with those of admixed groups like BB is not supported by the evidence.

I think the essential classification of Coon is wrong, partly because of the man in casu. Because this man is a real Corded Ware man, so this is the real Corded phenotype, a robust dolio. Beside that he considers Bell Beakers as Dinarid, but in fact they were the real Borreby's in the sense of robust brachycephalized types.

In that sense has Kurt Gerhardt a better classification. More spot on for Corded Ware and Bell Beakers.

 

[Northener]

Whatever may be said about Coon statements concerning superiority or inferiority, the most of his statements concerning physical measures was correct. Today Northern Germanics people are far from the 'nordic' and from the 'corded' type (other accretions than typical 'nordic'), and this has been said by Coon himself. Resurgence of diverse 'borreby'like people and also non-brachycephalized archaic types issued of the "aborigenes" pre-neolithic and who had partly taken their "revenge" over the gracile farmers in the Late Neolithic pop's (Trichterbecher/Funnelbeaker).

The point of the Funnelbeakers of the North German plain is that they were about 70% WHG (Ertebølle), and GAC Poland as TRB Gökhhem were about 70% EEF. This must have had phenotype consequences.