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6000 yo EHG pile dwellings near lakes and rivers in NW Russia : R1a1 -M17

I haven't read the paper which is the subject of this thread in its entirety, but unless I'm mistaken people who have read it report that the women in this group of hunter gatherers from what is now Russia were severely malnourished in comparison to the men and showed signs of extreme violence. There is nothing to be lauded here.

neither have I, but I find no posts in this thread which mention anything about the women actually written in the paper
only speculation and reference to other papers about other HGs
 
It was actually rather harsh. The first British that came into contact with aboriginals were appalled at the treatment of women by aboriginal men. They were treated worse than slaves. (Source: The Original Australians, by Josephine Flood)

On the theft of women and thecontinuous warfare and violence of HGs in the Amazone one should readNapoleon Chagnons work.

I think rather as Bicicleur that in more than a "primitive" society females are better treated than in more evolved ones: look at southern Amazone Amerindians (where females can mock the males in a good mood and where hunting of fishing products are shared by all - that said, uneasy to establish general rules...
I suppose in ancient times were life was hard females had a high value for their big resistance and capacity to give sons and daughters to the group - it is the evolved arms possessed by a little group of "elite" males which favorized the agressive inequalitary deportment of males and their little respect for females -

the females exchanges have existed at the mergins and between geographically close population, before a true trade of slaves was permitted by material and organization "progress" -apart of that I think it's not a hazard if mt-H is ne of the most spred and most variated mt-DNA, at least in Eurasia: as Y-R1, it's the result of a largely spred original population - I 'll try to find some clue but I think mt-H was old enough in more than a region, before Neolithic, from North to South and West to East (or the contrary) -
 
2nd oldest R1a1 (after Haak's 5500 BCE Karelian), 4000 - 3000 BCE, Smolensk area

Table 3. from page 294/295 of publication in the link below:

https://www.academia.edu/9452168/Ar...azurkevich_A._Polkovnikova_M._Dolbunova_E._ed

6000 - 5000 years old R1a1 from the vicinity of Velizh (archaeological site Serteya) in Smolensk Oblast:

Together with mtDNA haplogroup H in the same individual:

Serteya.8.gif


a19103cc4d67.png
 
Alan, I guess it is possible the ANE-affinity(ANE may not be a real thing, the whole tree-model was questioned in Haak 2015) in EHG may be from south or north of the Caucasus, we don't know. I'm very skeptical about R1 being exclusively from north Eurasia, because of basal forms in west Asia. Although it is pretty clear that R1 has a long history with Russia.

Think about it. The post-Mesolithic people of Russia had pretty much 100% Y DNA R1a, R1b, and N1c, like Mesolithic ones. But they also had alot of near eastern ancestry unlike the Mesolithic ones. Where did it come from. Since it is possible their Y DNA is from EHG and they had alot of typical west Asian mtDNA, a logical conclusion is that they had alot of west Asian mothers. So, the female trade network is simply an attempt to explain this. I'm not into the east European-macho man with 50 wives like others(maybe Davidski at Eurogenes), I just want to figure out what happened.
 
I'm very skeptical about R1 being exclusively from north Eurasia, because of basal forms in west Asia.

But M417 could emerge only in one place - either north Eurasia or west Asia. Basal forms of M417 exist in both regions.

It doesn't matter where did ancestors of M417 come from over a dozen thousands years ago, but where was first M417 born.

After all, M417 is as much as 99% of entire modern R1a. Now more evidence indicates M417 emerged in Eastern Europe.

Why? Because basal forms in west Asia come only from modern people. While in north Eurasia we have basal forms from hunter-gatherers.

It may become interesting when we get samples from Poland. There is an ongoing project on ancient DNA there - info from April 2014:

"This year [2014] begins a major research program, the goal of which is to examine ancient DNA from several dozen archaeological sites from the area of Poland. This project is supposed to test ancient DNA of inhabitants of Poland from pre-Roman, Roman, early Medieval and Medieval times and compare it to DNA of modern inhabitants. Research is going to last at least 5 years, its authors are - among others - prof. Hanna Koćka-Krenz and prof. Janusz Piontek."
 
I think rather as Bicicleur that in more than a "primitive" society females are better treated than in more evolved ones: look at southern Amazone Amerindians (where females can mock the males in a good mood and where hunting of fishing products are shared by all - that said, uneasy to establish general rules...
I suppose in ancient times were life was hard females had a high value for their big resistance and capacity to give sons and daughters to the group - it is the evolved arms possessed by a little group of "elite" males which favorized the agressive inequalitary deportment of males and their little respect for females
They not necessarily were treated bad, but they were kidnaped on rather big scale. The farmer's women were the "educated ones" and therefore priced high by HGs. They knew how to do textile, pottery, grow gardens with vegetables, milk animals and do all types of cheeses, and some more. But it came with a price. By kidnapping farmer's women HGs changed their genome and culture. After few hundreds of years they became a different people. I'm not sure for better or worse, but different.
 
They not necessarily were treated bad, but they were kidnaped on rather big scale. The farmer's women were the "educated ones" and therefore priced high by HGs. They knew how to do textile, pottery, grow gardens with vegetables, milk animals and do all types of cheeses, and some more. But it came with a price. By kidnapping farmer's women HGs changed their genome and culture. After few hundreds of years they became a different people. I'm not sure for better or worse, but different.
Do you know how crazy you sound? H was thought to be a Neolithic farmer mtDna because it was only found in those groups. Now it's not anymore. End of story.
 
Do you know how crazy you sound? H was thought to be a Neolithic farmer mtDna because it was only found in those groups. Now it's not anymore. End of story.
I was more referring to Samara mtDNA and general talk about farmers mtDNA, and how it get into HGs population. This H2 is unusual and very rare today I have no comment on this one.
 
I was more referring to Samara mtDNA and general talk about farmers mtDNA, and how it get into HGs population. This H2 is unusual and very rare today I have no comment on this one.

There is no confirmed H in this study. All they got results for was the HV1 region. All we know is that these samples had R, and not any of the major non-RO clades in Europe(U5, U4, U2, U3, U1, U8a1a, U8b1, K, JT, X, N1a1a, I, W).

The authors of this study are very old school, their knowledge of genetics is in 2006. They said R1b and H came out of an Iberian refuge 15,000YBP and all that other 2006 stuff. Just like authors of old ancient DNA studies they treat all CRS(which is really just the R-haplotype) as H.
 
QUOTE=Fire Haired14;450915]Alan, I guess it is possible the ANE-affinity(ANE may not be a real thing, the whole tree-model was questioned in Haak 2015) in EHG may be from south or north of the Caucasus, we don't know. I'm very skeptical about R1 being exclusively from north Eurasia, because of basal forms in west Asia. Although it is pretty clear that R1 has a long history with Russia.

Think about it. The post-Mesolithic people of Russia had pretty much 100% Y DNA R1a, R1b, and N1c, like Mesolithic ones. But they also had alot of near eastern ancestry unlike the Mesolithic ones. Where did it come from. Since it is possible their Y DNA is from EHG and they had alot of typical west Asian mtDNA, a logical conclusion is that they had alot of west Asian mothers. So, the female trade network is simply an attempt to explain this. I'm not into the east European-macho man with 50 wives like others(maybe Davidski at Eurogenes), I just want to figure out what happened.[/QUOTE]

remember the origin of R1a :

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29701-New-R1a-Paper-by-Underhill-et-al-(2014)
 
Well, I guess we don't actually have the end of the story yet.

Let's assume, for the moment, that these samples are retested and they are indeed mtDna "H" and furthermore that these samples are also found to be 100% "EHG" whatever that turns out to be, exactly.

We know that mtDna "H" seems to have a star burst expansion from the general area of the Caucasus. So, could some of it have moved north with people who remained hunter-gatherers, while some remained further south and became caught up in the development of agriculture? That's possible, it seems to me, but then how did mtDna bearers become "southern" autosomally? Was it from bearers of other mtDna and y dna lineages? (I don't see how it's helpful to call mtDna "H" mesolithic. ALL our lineages were mesolithic before some of them created agriculture.)

That doesn't, however, totally answer the question of how and with whom the "Near Eastern" half of their ancestry entered the steppe.

Perhaps it was indeed the mtDna "H", but I think there are some problems with the proposed pathways. Although I've seen a lot of talk about a movement of farmers into the Pontic-Caspian steppe from the Caucasus or from Turkmenistan north onto the steppe, I've yet to see a study posted which documents it. Nor have I been able to find one on my own. So, did the bride exchange/bride kidnapping take place with Caucasus populations? It seems a long way to go.

Also, I think the theory is that it is by this method that the steppe hunter gatherers learned pastoralism, farming etc. However, if they were still hunter gatherers what could they offer that was so valuable in terms of bride price? I suppose furs or something? There is the bride kidnapping to consider, but from what I know of pre-history this usually happened with neighboring cultures, and as I said before, I don't see much documentation for a farming culture on the steppe that derived from the Caucasus or Turkmenistan, and it's a long way to go up into the mountains or clear to the South Caucasus to get women. This to some satisfying image of eastern European he men with horses and large harems of women seems to me, even if it occurred, to belong to a much later period than the one under discussion. I find that this is a problem with all discussions of the "Indo-Europeans". People take the culture of the first millennium BC or even later and back project that culture onto much earlier steppe periods. It seems to me we have to talk about the culture of the people 5,000 to 4,000 BC perhaps, or a bit earlier?

The scale of the bride exchange or kidnapping that would be required is also worrying. Does anyone know off hand what percentage of Yamnaya mtDna was "U" versus the rest? Anyway, the autosomal impact was very large. Maybe someone can do the math and see if it's plausible that if you have a numerically small group of hunter-gatherers and and they mate with X percent of "Near Eastern" women (in larger percentages than their own?) for Y years this could be the result in the necessary time frame.

All of this would make much more sense in terms of interactions with the Neolithic communities to the west. According to Anthony, domesticated animals, rudimentary farming, metallurgy, all of it came onto the steppe from those communities. However, that is a different component from the "Near Eastern" component is it not?

The only other possibility is that some R1b "EHG" people, from whatever direction they reached the steppe then went south, acquired "Near Eastern" autosomal admixture, and back migrated.

I'm not totally persuaded by any of these scenarios. Perhaps there is some aDna or some archaeological study in the pipeline that will illuminate matters.

If the samples are not mtDna "H", then at least some of the complexity is removed.
 
Alan, I guess it is possible the ANE-affinity(ANE may not be a real thing, the whole tree-model was questioned in Haak 2015) in EHG may be from south or north of the Caucasus, we don't know. I'm very skeptical about R1 being exclusively from north Eurasia, because of basal forms in west Asia. Although it is pretty clear that R1 has a long history with Russia.

Think about it. The post-Mesolithic people of Russia had pretty much 100% Y DNA R1a, R1b, and N1c, like Mesolithic ones. But they also had alot of near eastern ancestry unlike the Mesolithic ones. Where did it come from. Since it is possible their Y DNA is from EHG and they had alot of typical west Asian mtDNA, a logical conclusion is that they had alot of west Asian mothers. So, the female trade network is simply an attempt to explain this. I'm not into the east European-macho man with 50 wives like others(maybe Davidski at Eurogenes), I just want to figure out what happened.

I think it was Maju that made the following thought experiment. Say you have a small group of HG's (n=100) and a large group of farmers (n=10000). Swap 10 women in a nice celebration, you know how these dance parties go. Friendly neighbours and all. Autosomically the HG would have changed a lot (10%) whereas the farmers barely a noticeble bit (0.1%). Repeat a few times. Now the HG's adopt farming and their numbers grow to the same level of the neighbouring farmers. Voila.
 
O, and everybody considers the basal eurasian part of K14 ancestral to nobody. That is obviously very convenient for a number of theories but may not be entirely true.
 
The only other possibility is that some R1b "EHG" people, from whatever direction they reached the steppe then went south, acquired "Near Eastern" autosomal admixture, and back migrated.

I'm not totally persuaded by any of these scenarios. Perhaps there is some aDna or some archaeological study in the pipeline that will illuminate matters.

If the samples are not mtDna "H", then at least some of the complexity is removed.

I have said it already. Since the most basal forms of R1b and R1a are found in the Near East. How about some R1a/R1b moving together with ANE earlier into the region and mixing with the local HG population?



Sounds at least more plaussible to me than a too speculative bride exchange/kidnapping theory.

And as I said there is evidence of influx from the south into Yamna in form of the Kurgan burials alone.
 
I have said it dozen times but I will say it again. Since the most basal forms of R1b* are found in the Near East. How about some R1b mixing into the general HG population (some sort of Elite Dominance)?



Sounds at least more plaussible to me than a ridiculously too speculative bride exchange/kidnapping theory.

And as I said there is evidence of influx from the south into Yamna in form of the Kurgan burials alone.

The R1a1* and R1b1* individuals from Mesolithic Russia had no near eastern ancestry. IF they did they had something like 0.000001%. I'm 25% Puerto Rican and admixture tests can identify I have a spec of west African ancestry. I usually score 1-2%. It's a very minor part of my ancestry but it's still identifiable. If the EHG samples had near eastern ancestry we would know.

No one is banking on the female kidnapping thing. It's a way to explain away the dominance of likely EHG-derived Y DNA after near eastern ancestry was acquired. I agree with you that there are forms of R in west Asia that can't be ignored.
 
The R1a1* and R1b1* individuals from Mesolithic Russia had no near eastern ancestry. If they did they had something like 0.000001%.

Depends on what someone considers "Near Eastern" ancestry. I doubt that ANE is local to the EHG region. I see one bunch of R1a/R1b bringin ANE into southern Russia and mixing with the local H&G.

I also see a second wave of R1a and R1b who are more farmer admixed moving later with pastoralism into the region. As simple as that.
 
Was not 100% ANE Malta boy in Russia 10s of thousands years ago?
Some Native tribes in Brazil are like 40% ANE.
 
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