A genetic probe into the ancient and medieval history of Southern Europe and WestAsia

Angela said:
Thanks a lot. Just the coordinates for the other two would be great if you have them.
Click to expand...

Angela: See Post #98 with commentary on all the different kits. Additional commentary :)!, I have a master data sheet that I try to keep current with all ancient Italian samples. I have another file on my hard drive with various Coordinates that I ran personally using GEDMATCH Kit #'s that had all the various coordinates for those Italian and Sicilian Beakers from the various kits. The ones that I had in my maser Ancient Italian data sheet were the ones that were from a Kit that I didn't write the kit down (Before I was at Eupedia in Fall of 2019). Maybe the kit got deleted by the person who extracted the data after they left GEDMATCH.

But as I noted in post 98, all the coordinates from the various Kits produce results that are in line with the Olade et al 2018 models for the 4 Italian Beakers that they were able to run admixture models for (3 Northern + 1 of the 3 Sicilian Beakers).

I posted Table S4 from the Supplements of Olade et al 2018 (post #222 in the Southern Arc thread) that has their admixture modeling for the 4 Italian Beakers so you can use as a baseline to compare the results of modeling the 4 Italian Beakers using for example Jovialis's Dodecad 12B K8 model, which produces results very consistent with the Olade et al 2018 modeling.

Buono Giornata, PT
 
Er Monnezza said:
Did they put p-values in the paper? I couldn't find anything when I searched.
Click to expand...

All of the stuff I mention are included in the methodology in the supplement files.
 
Ghani said:
You are one of a handful of people that get why PCA based coordinates G25 is never intended to model or be used for genetic distances. PCA/G25 is used for visualize clustering. Of course with PCA you can only see 2 or 3 PCs at a time. The other 22 or 23 PCs are hidden from view.

That’s why it’s dangerous to put G25 into hands of lay people or amateurs because they either use it to make conclusions or challenge scientific papers and formal statistics. The average Joe is not knowledgeable to know why PCA/G25 can’t be used for genetic distances or modeling so they assume that everything is good especially when they see that PCA/G25 clusters them with their ethnic group. This dupes them into buying into PCA/G25 for modeling and distances and thus a fraud goes undetected!!

Of course G25 doesn’t use outgroups to distinguish similar ancestries like qpAdm and it doesn’t have p-value to reject models. People think G25 distances is similar. What a joke!
Click to expand...

Ghani: You are correct to a point. Principal Components analysis attempts to explain the variation in as few variables as possible (Components). I was taught back in the day to run a principal components on a set of data and keep principal components with an eigen value of 3 or less (appropriate predictor/explanatory variable). All others were not to be included as an explanatory variable.

The Components are predicted values. These Components (Predicted Values) are then used to model/explain a Target Variable (i.e. Dependent Y variable in OLS Regression Framework). So it has benefits, explaining the Dependent variable in as parsimonious model as possible. Multicollinearity problems are minimized given you have very few X variables which in theory should minimize Multicollinearity problems. Anyone that has run OLS based regression models knows what VIF's (Variance Inflation factors) are or what Condition Indexes are to assess multicollinearity.

Problems are that the explanatory variables are based on predictions from an entire data set rather than all of the actual observations (data) to measure the independent variables. But a another potential benefit of using only Principal components with eigen values of 3 or less is to minimize overfitting the data, again explain Dependent variable Y with as few components (independent X variables) as possible.

Of course in genetics research, we can only measure the ancient samples we have. We can't measure what we don't have. It is not like going sample a modern USA city and randomly drawing a sample from the entire population (say Seattle, Saint Louis, New York City, Atlanta) to measure admixture of the various populations living in those cities. We can't go back to ancient Mycenean and Minoan Greece and obtain samples randomly from the population to ensure the data are not skewed one way or the other. So in that sense, the Principal components used to measure ethnicity should be interpreted with "caution" in my opinion. They are not worthless, but one needs to know the limitations of using Principal components based predictors to explain a target variable.

But in my view, once you have a large enough Sample (N=30 or > ) from a certain ancient culture for a particular time period, you in theory have a large enough sample for central limit theorem to allow for the the data to approximate a standard normal distribution.

Anyway, my take on it. PCA based regression type analysis is a good tool (using predicted components to explain a Dependent/target variable) but there are limitations to it.
 
Er Monnezza said:
but at least Global25 (or any other amateur tool) wouldn't be crazy enough to assign 5% Levant_PPN to I0439 or 12% to I0441.
Click to expand...

So you think the f-stats results are crazy and the g25 results are sober.

Interesting, at what point do you guys self-reflect and realize you operate as a cult?
 
Salento provided for me the new samples, and I combined it with the samples from Ancient Rome.

Here are the results for the two way:

Distance to:Jovialis
0.5971920124.40% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18737 + 75.60% C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro
0.6884096526.40% HRV_Cetina_BA:I19027 + 73.60% C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro
0.7178518791.80% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti + 8.20% C7:Late_Antiquity_European:R106_Crypta_Balbi
0.720221009.60% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA_brother.I18078.father.I18071:I18717 + 90.40% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
0.7386671691.80% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti + 8.20% C7:Medieval_European:R62_Villa_Magna
0.7424141893.40% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti + 6.60% C7:Late_Antiquity_European:R31_Mausole_di_Augusto
0.7468321493.20% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti + 6.80% C7:Medieval_European:R1286_Cancelleria
0.7477548421.80% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18077 + 78.20% C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro
0.7626303290.00% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti + 10.00% C7:Late_Antiquity_European:R108_Crypta_Balbi
0.7641398590.80% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti + 9.20% C7:Medieval_European:R1220_Cancelleria
0.7786828723.60% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18729 + 76.40% C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro
0.7880821026.20% HRV_Cetina_BA:I18745 + 73.80% C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro
0.8173829513.80% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18087 + 86.20% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
0.821142617.60% HRV_IA:I5727 + 92.40% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
0.8325872092.00% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti + 8.00% C7:Medieval_European:R1219_Cancelleria
0.8377795420.80% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18732 + 79.20% C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro
0.8433010315.60% SRB_IA:I16814 + 84.40% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
0.8508873357.40% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18737 + 42.60% TUR_SE_Mardin_RomByz:I4474
0.8526646352.20% ALB_Mdv:I14622 + 47.80% C6:Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R117_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
0.854610464.80% MNE_Vrbička_Mes:I16995 + 95.20% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
0.861309479.00% BGR_Tell_Ezero_EBA:I19461 + 91.00% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
0.8620339721.00% HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15743 + 79.00% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
0.8843126346.40% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18729 + 53.60% TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Stratonikeia_Byz:I20144
0.886016644.40% C1:Mesolithic:R7_Grotta_Continenza + 95.60% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
0.8915206714.60% HRV_Cetina_BA:I18747 + 85.40% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti

 
Distance to:Jovialis
2.77221933HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15744
2.85287574C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
3.25777531C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R54_Villa_Magna
3.26810343C6:Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R121_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
3.28435686C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R835_Civitanova_Marche
3.31691121HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15462
3.78790179C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R60_Villa_Magna
3.80023683C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R836_Civitanova_Marche
3.82032721HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15463
4.00470973C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R969_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
4.06354525C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R970_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
4.21379876C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R1290_Villa_Magna
4.31241232C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R57_Villa_Magna
4.71858029C5:Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R122_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
4.83366321C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R49_Centocelle_Necropolis
4.95721696C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R56_Villa_Magna
5.01646290C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R64_Villa_Magna
5.08145648HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15741
5.18197839Foggia_Apulia_MA:VK537
5.43155595ALB_Mdv:I14622
5.60555974Foggia_Apulia_MA:VK536
5.85387906C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R59_Villa_Magna
5.92195914C6:Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R35_Celio
5.92265988C6:Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R117_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
5.92911461C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R52_Villa_Magna


Jovialis said:
Salento provided for me the new samples, and I combined it with the samples from Ancient Rome.
Click to expand...
Jovialis said:
Here are the results for the two way:

Distance to:Jovialis
0.5971920124.40% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18737 + 75.60% C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro
0.6884096526.40% HRV_Cetina_BA:I19027 + 73.60% C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro
0.7178518791.80% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti + 8.20% C7:Late_Antiquity_European:R106_Crypta_Balbi
0.720221009.60% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA_brother.I18078.father.I18071:I18717 + 90.40% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
0.7386671691.80% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti + 8.20% C7:Medieval_European:R62_Villa_Magna
0.7424141893.40% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti + 6.60% C7:Late_Antiquity_European:R31_Mausole_di_Augusto
0.7468321493.20% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti + 6.80% C7:Medieval_European:R1286_Cancelleria
0.7477548421.80% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18077 + 78.20% C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro
0.7626303290.00% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti + 10.00% C7:Late_Antiquity_European:R108_Crypta_Balbi
0.7641398590.80% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti + 9.20% C7:Medieval_European:R1220_Cancelleria
0.7786828723.60% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18729 + 76.40% C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro
0.7880821026.20% HRV_Cetina_BA:I18745 + 73.80% C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro
0.8173829513.80% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18087 + 86.20% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
0.821142617.60% HRV_IA:I5727 + 92.40% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
0.8325872092.00% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti + 8.00% C7:Medieval_European:R1219_Cancelleria
0.8377795420.80% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18732 + 79.20% C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro
0.8433010315.60% SRB_IA:I16814 + 84.40% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
0.8508873357.40% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18737 + 42.60% TUR_SE_Mardin_RomByz:I4474
0.8526646352.20% ALB_Mdv:I14622 + 47.80% C6:Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R117_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
0.854610464.80% MNE_Vrbička_Mes:I16995 + 95.20% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
0.861309479.00% BGR_Tell_Ezero_EBA:I19461 + 91.00% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
0.8620339721.00% HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15743 + 79.00% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
0.8843126346.40% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18729 + 53.60% TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Stratonikeia_Byz:I20144
0.886016644.40% C1:Mesolithic:R7_Grotta_Continenza + 95.60% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
0.8915206714.60% HRV_Cetina_BA:I18747 + 85.40% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
Click to expand...
 
eupator said:
You are annoyed because you'd rather have ancient Greeks than Anatolians as ancestors to the imperial Romans but Greeks only separated from Anatolia in the early 20th century, they are intertwined since antiquity and these new samples prove it. The ancient Greeks the West idolizes were in fact Ionics, open a Google map and check were Ionia was.
Click to expand...

Well, I wouldn't go that far; some idolize Sparta for example. I, if not idolize, greatly esteem Athens. :)

I personally think that a big lack in this set of papers is that we don't have Aegean samples, and enough samples from Greek itself after the Bronze Age. If I had to guess, yes, the people of western Anatolia and the Greeks of the same period might have been very similar. However, Anatolia is bigger than that. What of those Anatolians?

For all the hype for this paper, we still don't have some important samples necessary to answer a lot of remaining questions.
 
Jovialis: My single distances with the New Southern Arc Samples from Lazaridis et al 2022 (mille Grazie Salento) and Ancient Roman samples from Antonio et al 2010 and 2 way models.

Distance to:PalermoTrapani_ANCESTRY
2.59038607C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R56_Villa_Magna
2.76190152C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R52_Villa_Magna
3.27177322C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R122_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
3.34701359C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R35_Celio
3.84983117C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R131_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
4.10471680C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R835_Civitanova_Marche
4.16370028C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1290_Villa_Magna
4.18976133C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_Tribe)_Palestrina_Selicata
4.32090268C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
4.54783465C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R49_Centocelle_Necropolis
4.57668002C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R117_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
4.82952379C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R65_Villa_Magna
4.83867751C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R54_Villa_Magna
5.03103369C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R836_Civitanova_Marche
5.10995108C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R57_Villa_Magna
5.30245226C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R47_Centocelle_Necropolis
5.32897739C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R59_Villa_Magna
5.43089311C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R969_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
5.46635162C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R64_Villa_Magna
5.50746766C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R121_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
5.62379765HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15744
5.68175149C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R107_Crypta_Balbi
5.70777540C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R113_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
5.90403252C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R118_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
6.04601522C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro



Distance to:PalermoTrapani_ANCESTRY
0.9391085930.20% HRV_Cetina_BA_dup.or.1d.rel.I19017:I19020 + 69.80% C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R34_Mausole_di_Augusto
0.9973741617.80% HRV_Vinkovci_MN:I7398 + 82.20% C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R54_Villa_Magna
1.0680025915.80% ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I14158 + 84.20% C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro
1.0766548273.80% C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R134_Marcellino_&_Pietro + 26.20% C7_Imperial_European:R37_Isola_Sacra_Necropolis
1.1177089941.00% HRV_BA:I5073 + 59.00% TUR_Marmara_İznik_Y.kapı_Byz:I14843
1.1305306449.00% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18078 + 51.00% C4_Imperial_Near_Eastern:R1547_Monterotondo
1.1547660240.80% HRV_IA:I5726 + 59.20% TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Samantaş_Byz:I20260
1.1550094433.20% TUR_SE_Kilis_Byz:I14791 + 66.80% C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1287_Cancelleria
1.1551774561.20% TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Samantaş_Byz:I20260 + 38.80% C7_Late_Antiquity_European:R109_Crypta_Balbi
1.1630413358.20% TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Stratonikeia_Byz:I20144 + 41.80% C7_Iron_Age_European:R473_(Etruscan)_Civitavecchia
1.1745024669.40% C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R134_Marcellino_&_Pietro + 30.60% C7_Iron_Age_European:R435_(Latin_Prenestini_Tribe)_Palestrina_Colombella
1.1984983767.40% MKD_Anc:I10390 + 32.60% C4_Imperial_Near_Eastern:R1550_Monterotondo
1.2204333521.00% BGR_MalakPreslavets_N:I6354 + 79.00% C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R134_Marcellino_&_Pietro
1.2264281557.00% MKD_Anc:I10391 + 43.00% C4_Imperial_Near_Eastern:R73_ANAS
1.2342896263.20% TUR_Marmara_İznik_Y.kapı_Byz:I14843 + 36.80% C7_Iron_Age_European:R474_(Etruscan)_Civitavecchia
1.2588840370.00% C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R34_Mausole_di_Augusto + 30.00% C7_Medieval_European:R1289_Cancelleria
1.2729084453.60% MKD_Anc:I10388 + 46.40% C4_Imperial_Near_Eastern:R73_ANAS
1.2785272939.00% HRV_Cetina_BA:I18088 + 61.00% TUR_Marmara_İznik_Y.kapı_Byz:I14843
1.2951598275.20% GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19366 + 24.80% HRV_Cetina_BA:I19025
1.3090032640.40% MNE_LBA:I13171 + 59.60% TUR_Marmara_İznik_Y.kapı_Byz:I14843
1.3247408871.80% BGR_ChL:I2428 + 28.20% IRN_Hasanlu_IA:I4353
1.3303704710.40% MKD_IA_lc:I10380 + 89.60% C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R65_Villa_Magna
1.3306370432.20% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18720 + 67.80% TUR_Marmara_İznik_Y.kapı_Byz:I14843
1.3416685444.20% MKD_Anc:I10377 + 55.80% C4_Imperial_Near_Eastern:R73_ANAS
1.3512103532.80% ARM_Agarak_Mdv:I1659 + 67.20% BGR_ChL:I2428



My opinion and take, I think it is safe to say Southern Italy and Sicily is the where Ancient Rome and Ancient Greece really, really, met. But some of us already new that :)!
 
I'm only posting the first 2 of the new list's hits, the others are too far out.

Code: 
[SIZE=2][I]Distance to:	eptr[/I][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][I]3.30755196	MKD_Anc_outlier2:I10167[/I][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][I]5.20128830	TUR_Marmara_Balıkesir_Byz:I14820[/I][/SIZE]
 
Jovialis said:
Salento provided for me the new samples, and I combined it with the samples from Ancient Rome.

Here are the results for the two way:

Distance to:Jovialis
0.5971920124.40% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18737 + 75.60% C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro
0.6884096526.40% HRV_Cetina_BA:I19027 + 73.60% C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro
0.7178518791.80% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti + 8.20% C7:Late_Antiquity_European:R106_Crypta_Balbi
0.720221009.60% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA_brother.I18078.father.I18071:I18717 + 90.40% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
0.7386671691.80% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti + 8.20% C7:Medieval_European:R62_Villa_Magna
0.7424141893.40% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti + 6.60% C7:Late_Antiquity_European:R31_Mausole_di_Augusto
0.7468321493.20% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti + 6.80% C7:Medieval_European:R1286_Cancelleria
0.7477548421.80% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18077 + 78.20% C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro
0.7626303290.00% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti + 10.00% C7:Late_Antiquity_European:R108_Crypta_Balbi
0.7641398590.80% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti + 9.20% C7:Medieval_European:R1220_Cancelleria
0.7786828723.60% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18729 + 76.40% C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro
0.7880821026.20% HRV_Cetina_BA:I18745 + 73.80% C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro
0.8173829513.80% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18087 + 86.20% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
0.821142617.60% HRV_IA:I5727 + 92.40% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
0.8325872092.00% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti + 8.00% C7:Medieval_European:R1219_Cancelleria
0.8377795420.80% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18732 + 79.20% C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro
0.8433010315.60% SRB_IA:I16814 + 84.40% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
0.8508873357.40% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18737 + 42.60% TUR_SE_Mardin_RomByz:I4474
0.8526646352.20% ALB_Mdv:I14622 + 47.80% C6:Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R117_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
0.854610464.80% MNE_Vrbička_Mes:I16995 + 95.20% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
0.861309479.00% BGR_Tell_Ezero_EBA:I19461 + 91.00% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
0.8620339721.00% HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15743 + 79.00% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
0.8843126346.40% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18729 + 53.60% TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Stratonikeia_Byz:I20144
0.886016644.40% C1:Mesolithic:R7_Grotta_Continenza + 95.60% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
0.8915206714.60% HRV_Cetina_BA:I18747 + 85.40% C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
Click to expand...

Thanks to you and Salento:
Distance to:Angela
3.96764414MKD_Anc:I10387
4.54598724MKD_Anc:I10390
4.78524816MNE_LBA:I13167
5.07185370MKD_Anc:I10383
5.88070574MKD_Anc:I10391
5.93506529MKD_Anc:I10388
5.95793588MNE_LBA:I13169
6.19116306ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I14692
6.24270775BGR_Smyadovo_EBA_contam:I2176
6.45786342MNE_LBA:I14500
6.57443534MNE_LBA:I13172
6.57942247ALB_Mdv:I13834
6.78405483ALB_PostMdv:I15707
6.84365399BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19455
7.13084147BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19452
7.18208187MKD_Anc:I10381
7.22678352MNE_LBA:I13775
7.42544275ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I14688
7.45790185MKD_Anc:I8112
7.65953001BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19456
7.66500489ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I16256
7.92520031MKD_Anc:I10379
7.94832687MKD_BA:I7231
7.95380412BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19451
7.96563871MNE_LBA_brother.I13169_son.or.brother.I13776:I13777

So, the first Makedonia ancient is not too bad.

Makedonia ancient is not so ancient; it's first millennium B.C.

The first Montenegro LBA is not terrible. It's about two to four hundred years older.

Distance to:Angela
0.4699087477.80% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 22.20% TUR_Marmara_Menteşe_N:I0724
0.8373984775.40% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 24.60% ROU_N:I0739
1.0028917076.60% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 23.40% ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I20809
1.1520454876.80% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 23.20% TUR_Marmara_Menteşe_N:I0723
1.3321641322.60% ALB_NChL:I13838 + 77.40% MNE_LBA:I13775
1.3460570482.20% MNE_LBA:I13167 + 17.80% ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7130
1.3560814721.40% MKD_N:I3881 + 78.60% MNE_LBA:I13775
1.3855262022.60% ALB_NChL:I13840 + 77.40% MNE_LBA:I13775
1.3972274551.00% BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N:I11270 + 49.00% HRV_Vinkovci_Mdv:I1879
1.4038777977.00% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 23.00% TUR_Marmara_Barcın_N:I1583
1.4274206123.00% BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N:I11270 + 77.00% MNE_LBA:I13775
1.4326541022.20% BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N:I0704 + 77.80% MNE_LBA:I13775
1.4485809678.40% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 21.60% TUR_Marmara_Ilıpınar_Byz1:I10429
1.4547301925.60% GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19364 + 74.40% MNE_LBA:I13775
1.4561627730.00% ALB_N:I15705 + 70.00% MNE_LBA:I13168
1.4609267877.20% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 22.80% TUR_Marmara_Barcın_N:I1579
1.4637131865.20% MNE_LBA:I13778 + 34.80% ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I14165
1.4844193923.40% BGR_Yabalkovo_N:I2529 + 76.60% MNE_LBA:I13775
1.4856014667.40% ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I16256 + 32.60% GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13579
1.4894679760.60% MNE_LBA:I13778 + 39.40% ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I14160
1.5184204577.40% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 22.60% ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7132
1.5292443182.00% MNE_LBA:I13167 + 18.00% ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15618
1.5314417181.00% MNE_LBA:I13167 + 19.00% ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL_sister.I7133:I15622
1.5458489153.80% BGR_MalakPreslavets_N:I1295 + 46.20% HRV_Cetina_BA:I19019
1.5490044878.40% BGR_MalakPreslavets_N:I1295 + 21.60% MDA_CrihanaVeche_BA:I10439


With the Antonio et al samples:
Distance to:Angela
3.96764414MKD_Anc:I10387
4.54598724MKD_Anc:I10390
4.78524816MNE_LBA:I13167
5.07185370MKD_Anc:I10383
5.88070574MKD_Anc:I10391
5.93506529MKD_Anc:I10388
5.95793588MNE_LBA:I13169
6.16497364R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
6.19116306ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I14692
6.20277357R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
6.24270775BGR_Smyadovo_EBA_contam:I2176
6.45786342MNE_LBA:I14500
6.57443534MNE_LBA:I13172
6.57942247ALB_Mdv:I13834
6.78405483ALB_PostMdv:I15707
6.84365399BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19455
6.88056684R111__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
7.13084147BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19452
7.18208187MKD_Anc:I10381
7.22678352MNE_LBA:I13775
7.42544275ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I14688
7.45790185MKD_Anc:I8112
7.65953001BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19456
7.66500489ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I16256
7.92520031MKD_Anc:I10379

Distance to:Angela
0.4699087477.80% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 22.20% TUR_Marmara_Menteşe_N:I0724
0.8373984775.40% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 24.60% ROU_N:I0739
0.8665569549.60% HRV_Vinkovci_Mdv:I1879 + 50.40% R18___Neolithic_____Ripabianca_di_Monterado
0.9934037315.40% ARM_Berkaber_KuraAraxes_EBA:I14341 + 84.60% R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
1.0028917076.60% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 23.40% ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I20809
1.0344083777.40% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 22.60% R18___Neolithic_____Ripabianca_di_Monterado
1.0781773421.40% TUR_SE_Mardin_RomByz:I4613 + 78.60% R1021_Iron_Age_____Boville_Ernica
1.0837641517.60% ARM_Talin_KuraAraxes_EBA_mother.or.daughter.of.I1658:I1657 + 82.40% R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
1.1520454876.80% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 23.20% TUR_Marmara_Menteşe_N:I0723
1.1623107014.00% TUR_SE_Şırnak_BA:I4616 + 86.00% R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
1.1625726114.20% ARM_Bragdzor_EIA_father.I16536.brother.I16553:I16546 + 85.80% R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
1.1996955215.40% ARM_Berkaber_KuraAraxes_EBA:I14339 + 84.60% R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
1.2036142419.20% IRN_DinkhaTepe_BIA_A:I3913_all + 80.80% R1021_Iron_Age_____Boville_Ernica
1.2062691819.80% IRN_DinkhaTepe_BIA_A:I4274 + 80.20% R1021_Iron_Age_____Boville_Ernica
1.2109615254.00% R113__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis + 46.00% R851__Iron_Age_____Ardea
1.2120726920.60% TUR_SE_Batman_Anc:I14733 + 79.40% R1021_Iron_Age_____Boville_Ernica
1.2168704521.20% TUR_SE_Mardin_RomByz:I4474 + 78.80% R1021_Iron_Age_____Boville_Ernica
1.2229229020.80% TUR_SE_Kilis_MBA:I14762 + 79.20% R1021_Iron_Age_____Boville_Ernica
1.2524875425.60% TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Stratonikeia_Byz:I20144 + 74.40% R1021_Iron_Age_____Boville_Ernica
1.2595327619.60% IRN_DinkhaTepe_BIA_A:I4272_all + 80.40% R1021_Iron_Age_____Boville_Ernica
1.2630445915.80% ARM_Berkaber_KuraAraxes_EBA_father.or.son.I14343:I14340 + 84.20% R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
1.2823017838.80% R137__Imperial_Era__Marcellino_&_Pietro + 61.20% R851__Iron_Age_____Ardea
1.2847227217.20% ARM_Black_Fortress_LBA:I18164 + 82.80% R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
1.3014053666.40% HRV_Cetina_BA:I18752 + 33.60% R18___Neolithic_____Ripabianca_di_Monterado
1.3223764319.60% TUR_SE_Mardin_RomByz:I4534 + 80.40% R1021_Iron_Age_____Boville_Ernica
 
eupator said:
So you think the f-stats results are crazy and the g25 results are sober.
Click to expand...

Not in general, but I do in this particular case.

Again according to those percentages from the paper, this Yamnaya sample (I0441) is supposed to be 12% Levant_PPN. Instead, this is what he gets in a common calculator like Dodecad K12b.

a1VT27R.png
 
eupator said:
I'm only posting the first 2 of the new list's hits, the others are too far out.

Code: 
[SIZE=2][I]Distance to:    eptr[/I][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][I]3.30755196    MKD_Anc_outlier2:I10167[/I][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][I]5.20128830    TUR_Marmara_Balıkesir_Byz:I14820[/I][/SIZE]
Click to expand...

The second one certainly makes sense. What makes 110167 an outlier?
 
Er Monnezza said:
Not in general, but I do in this particular case.

Again according to those percentages from the paper, this Yamnaya sample (I0441) is supposed to be 12% Levant_PPN. Instead, this is what he gets in a common calculator like Dodecad K12b.

a1VT27R.png
Click to expand...


This is the last time I am responding to your arguments on this, not because I don't consider you worthy of discussion (I do), but because I cannot keep having the same arguments ad nauseam with every person straight from the anthrogenica hivemind, I have had my fair share and I am sick of it.

K12b is not based on ancient samples (like PPN), in order to understand the referencing you need to read up on the Gedrosia component (old "eurogenes vs dienekes" - related drama as well). There's also the case of what kind of % coverage you get with the calculator's chosen SNPs, qpAdm can work with imputing data, etc.

I am amazed however with your persistence on this, to disprove the paper's f-stats methodology and results.
 
Angela said:
Thanks to you and Salento:
Distance to:Angela
3.96764414MKD_Anc:I10387
4.54598724MKD_Anc:I10390
4.78524816MNE_LBA:I13167
5.07185370MKD_Anc:I10383
5.88070574MKD_Anc:I10391
5.93506529MKD_Anc:I10388
5.95793588MNE_LBA:I13169
6.19116306ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I14692
6.24270775BGR_Smyadovo_EBA_contam:I2176
6.45786342MNE_LBA:I14500
6.57443534MNE_LBA:I13172
6.57942247ALB_Mdv:I13834
6.78405483ALB_PostMdv:I15707
6.84365399BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19455
7.13084147BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19452
7.18208187MKD_Anc:I10381
7.22678352MNE_LBA:I13775
7.42544275ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I14688
7.45790185MKD_Anc:I8112
7.65953001BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19456
7.66500489ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I16256
7.92520031MKD_Anc:I10379
7.94832687MKD_BA:I7231
7.95380412BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19451
7.96563871MNE_LBA_brother.I13169_son.or.brother.I13776:I13777

So, the first Makedonia ancient is not too bad.

Makedonia ancient is not so ancient; it's first millennium B.C.

The first Montenegro LBA is not terrible. It's about two to four hundred years older.

Distance to:Angela
0.4699087477.80% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 22.20% TUR_Marmara_Menteşe_N:I0724
0.8373984775.40% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 24.60% ROU_N:I0739
1.0028917076.60% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 23.40% ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I20809
1.1520454876.80% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 23.20% TUR_Marmara_Menteşe_N:I0723
1.3321641322.60% ALB_NChL:I13838 + 77.40% MNE_LBA:I13775
1.3460570482.20% MNE_LBA:I13167 + 17.80% ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7130
1.3560814721.40% MKD_N:I3881 + 78.60% MNE_LBA:I13775
1.3855262022.60% ALB_NChL:I13840 + 77.40% MNE_LBA:I13775
1.3972274551.00% BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N:I11270 + 49.00% HRV_Vinkovci_Mdv:I1879
1.4038777977.00% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 23.00% TUR_Marmara_Barcın_N:I1583
1.4274206123.00% BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N:I11270 + 77.00% MNE_LBA:I13775
1.4326541022.20% BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N:I0704 + 77.80% MNE_LBA:I13775
1.4485809678.40% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 21.60% TUR_Marmara_Ilıpınar_Byz1:I10429
1.4547301925.60% GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19364 + 74.40% MNE_LBA:I13775
1.4561627730.00% ALB_N:I15705 + 70.00% MNE_LBA:I13168
1.4609267877.20% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 22.80% TUR_Marmara_Barcın_N:I1579
1.4637131865.20% MNE_LBA:I13778 + 34.80% ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I14165
1.4844193923.40% BGR_Yabalkovo_N:I2529 + 76.60% MNE_LBA:I13775
1.4856014667.40% ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I16256 + 32.60% GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13579
1.4894679760.60% MNE_LBA:I13778 + 39.40% ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I14160
1.5184204577.40% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 22.60% ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7132
1.5292443182.00% MNE_LBA:I13167 + 18.00% ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15618
1.5314417181.00% MNE_LBA:I13167 + 19.00% ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL_sister.I7133:I15622
1.5458489153.80% BGR_MalakPreslavets_N:I1295 + 46.20% HRV_Cetina_BA:I19019
1.5490044878.40% BGR_MalakPreslavets_N:I1295 + 21.60% MDA_CrihanaVeche_BA:I10439


With the Antonio et al samples:
Distance to:Angela
3.96764414MKD_Anc:I10387
4.54598724MKD_Anc:I10390
4.78524816MNE_LBA:I13167
5.07185370MKD_Anc:I10383
5.88070574MKD_Anc:I10391
5.93506529MKD_Anc:I10388
5.95793588MNE_LBA:I13169
6.16497364R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
6.19116306ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I14692
6.20277357R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
6.24270775BGR_Smyadovo_EBA_contam:I2176
6.45786342MNE_LBA:I14500
6.57443534MNE_LBA:I13172
6.57942247ALB_Mdv:I13834
6.78405483ALB_PostMdv:I15707
6.84365399BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19455
6.88056684R111__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
7.13084147BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19452
7.18208187MKD_Anc:I10381
7.22678352MNE_LBA:I13775
7.42544275ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I14688
7.45790185MKD_Anc:I8112
7.65953001BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19456
7.66500489ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I16256
7.92520031MKD_Anc:I10379

Distance to:Angela
0.4699087477.80% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 22.20% TUR_Marmara_Menteşe_N:I0724
0.8373984775.40% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 24.60% ROU_N:I0739
0.8665569549.60% HRV_Vinkovci_Mdv:I1879 + 50.40% R18___Neolithic_____Ripabianca_di_Monterado
0.9934037315.40% ARM_Berkaber_KuraAraxes_EBA:I14341 + 84.60% R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
1.0028917076.60% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 23.40% ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I20809
1.0344083777.40% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 22.60% R18___Neolithic_____Ripabianca_di_Monterado
1.0781773421.40% TUR_SE_Mardin_RomByz:I4613 + 78.60% R1021_Iron_Age_____Boville_Ernica
1.0837641517.60% ARM_Talin_KuraAraxes_EBA_mother.or.daughter.of.I1658:I1657 + 82.40% R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
1.1520454876.80% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 23.20% TUR_Marmara_Menteşe_N:I0723
1.1623107014.00% TUR_SE_Şırnak_BA:I4616 + 86.00% R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
1.1625726114.20% ARM_Bragdzor_EIA_father.I16536.brother.I16553:I16546 + 85.80% R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
1.1996955215.40% ARM_Berkaber_KuraAraxes_EBA:I14339 + 84.60% R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
1.2036142419.20% IRN_DinkhaTepe_BIA_A:I3913_all + 80.80% R1021_Iron_Age_____Boville_Ernica
1.2062691819.80% IRN_DinkhaTepe_BIA_A:I4274 + 80.20% R1021_Iron_Age_____Boville_Ernica
1.2109615254.00% R113__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis + 46.00% R851__Iron_Age_____Ardea
1.2120726920.60% TUR_SE_Batman_Anc:I14733 + 79.40% R1021_Iron_Age_____Boville_Ernica
1.2168704521.20% TUR_SE_Mardin_RomByz:I4474 + 78.80% R1021_Iron_Age_____Boville_Ernica
1.2229229020.80% TUR_SE_Kilis_MBA:I14762 + 79.20% R1021_Iron_Age_____Boville_Ernica
1.2524875425.60% TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Stratonikeia_Byz:I20144 + 74.40% R1021_Iron_Age_____Boville_Ernica
1.2595327619.60% IRN_DinkhaTepe_BIA_A:I4272_all + 80.40% R1021_Iron_Age_____Boville_Ernica
1.2630445915.80% ARM_Berkaber_KuraAraxes_EBA_father.or.son.I14343:I14340 + 84.20% R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
1.2823017838.80% R137__Imperial_Era__Marcellino_&_Pietro + 61.20% R851__Iron_Age_____Ardea
1.2847227217.20% ARM_Black_Fortress_LBA:I18164 + 82.80% R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
1.3014053666.40% HRV_Cetina_BA:I18752 + 33.60% R18___Neolithic_____Ripabianca_di_Monterado
1.3223764319.60% TUR_SE_Mardin_RomByz:I4534 + 80.40% R1021_Iron_Age_____Boville_Ernica
Click to expand...

would love to do the same for myself, but I think I do need some help. anyone willing to help?
 
eupator said:
You are annoyed because you'd rather have ancient Greeks than Anatolians as ancestors to the imperial Romans but Greeks only separated from Anatolia in the early 20th century, they are intertwined since antiquity and these new samples prove it. The ancient Greeks the West idolizes were in fact Ionics, open a Google map and check were Ionia was.
Click to expand...


No evidence Classical Athenians were Anatolian admixed so far. What about Greek colonies in Italy? Archimedes?
 
Bergin: 2 questions 1) Do you have a GEDMATCH or Admixture Studio account? and 2) Do you have your DNA file from Ancestry, 23andMe, Living DNA, etc?

If answers are yes to both questions 1 and 2,

Then go to oracle calculator, see link below

http://promotopic.com/calculator/vahd.html

Estimate your Dodecad12B coordinates using GEDMATCH/Admixture Studio and then cut and paste them into the Target Tab. It should look the same as the Source Tab coordinates that Salento estimated, which you cut and paste into the Source Tab.

So your personal coordinates would be something like Bergin_Dod12,Cor1,Cor2,Cor3,Cor4,Cor5,Cor6,Cor7,Cor8,Cor9,Cor10,Cor11,Cor12

For Single distances, hit the Distance table. The Default is top 25 but you can change that box (maximum reported) to as many as you want. You can also change the gradient to see the distances better moving from the default of 30 to 100.

If you hit Single, you can get admixture models, you can set the parameters. So I usually start with Cycles 1 and no restrictions on populations, you can change the population to 2 Sources, 3 Sources, 4 Sources, etc.

Realizing that some source populations are themselves mixed, you can use the Distance column and run it with 0.25X (at least that is my interpretation of what that function is suppose to adjust for).

Hope this helps, maybe someone else can chime in with additional tips.
 
thanks, i do have a gedmatch account and probably will find my living Dna file. if i have any problems may i still bother you?
agaij thanks for the info
 
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