A Genome-Wide Study of Modern-Day Tuscans: Revisiting Herodotus's Theory on the Origi

[Aberdeen]

I refreshed my recollection of the papers from the Estonian Institute and the isolates are in northeastern Italy and Val Borbera in basso Piemonte.

FWI, the creator of the MDLP calculator obviously has access to the raw date from the Estonian Institute papers. That's why so many northern Italians are now getting Piemonte as one of their matches on that run.

The samples from this institute are not, in my opinion, the best choice for autosomal analysis. Their sampling locations are always these very unrepresentative genetic isolates, chosen perhaps because they're studying recessive or otherwise genetic dieseases. In the case of the Val Borbera, in particular, I don't think it's very representative of general northwestern Italian populations. It has a very unique history. The same holds true for their Apulia sample.

I do understand the need for population geneticists not to sample in large cities where there has been a lot of mixing from disparate areas over the centuries. In such cases, a middle ground is, I think, to take a Boattini approach if the concern is not to mix southerners with northerners or Venetians with the Piemontese; use surnames. That's what Cavalli Sforza did for a lot of his studies.

I'm curious about the surname thing, because in English speaking countries it's very common for people from various ethnic groups to change their name in order to seem more part of the mainstream. Does that not happen in Italy?

 

[Angela]

I'm curious about the surname thing, because in English speaking countries it's very common for people from various ethnic groups to change their name in order to seem more part of the mainstream. Does that not happen in Italy?

I'm not aware of anyone ever doing that, Aberdeen. Sometimes, if an adoption has taken place in adulthood, the person will use both surnames. The same might happen if the male line of a prominent family dies out; then, both the paternal and maternal surnames might be used. Of course, there are childless Italian families who adopt, and the child will take the surname of the adoptive father. Other than that, there is no changing of names of which I'm aware, although an individual here or there might do it. That might be more a function of immigrant societies?

In Italy, we do have certain surnames that have a sort of pan Italian distribution. But most, even some of the most common ones, are very regional in their distribution. There are, for example, names which are much more likely to be northern Italian, or names which are much more likely to be southern Italian. For example, Esposito is the fourth most common name in Italy. If I meet someone named Esposito I know they are at least partly of southern extraction, and the odds are they are more likely to be from Campania than anywhere else. This is its distribution:
http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turi...gnomi&cognome=Esposito&x=29&y=12#.VCRUzMk9jw0
The splotches in the north are mostly due to internal migration.

Some names are even more specifically regional in nature. There are ten to twenty surnames in my area that are highly area specific. These are just two examples:
http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turi...i&cognome=Ballestracci&x=28&y=13#.VCRWwMk9jw0
http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turi...italia?cognome=Ferdani&x=27&y=16#.VCRXQck9jw0

The few dots in Torino and Milano represent internal emigrants who went there for work.

 

[LeBrok]

I'm curious about the surname thing, because in English speaking countries it's very common for people from various ethnic groups to change their name in order to seem more part of the mainstream. Does that not happen in Italy?

Valid observation. This happened in every European country at some point of time, or still is ongoing. Sort of like fashion, but in much slower pace. Otherwise all last names would correspond to previous cultures. We don't have Latin names in Italy now, do we?

 

[Angela]

Valid observation. This happened in every European country at some point of time, or still is ongoing. Sort of like fashion, but in much slower pace. Otherwise all last names would correspond to previous cultures. We don't have Latin names in Italy now, do we?

No, we don't, but they're virtually unchanged since surnames were first recorded after the Council of Trent.

Ed. Well, even that's not exactly correct, at least if you're talking about given names. From my own family...Aurelia, Ottaviano, Ameglia, Agostina, Claudio(a), Adriano(a)...We don't have a Cesare, but there are tons in Italy, and Tiberios, and on and on...

In my husband's family, there's a Constantino, a Florio (Florian), Flavio, Fabbio...

Enough?

 

[MOESAN]

Valid observation. This happened in every European country at some point of time, or still is ongoing. Sort of like fashion, but in much slower pace. Otherwise all last names would correspond to previous cultures. We don't have Latin names in Italy now, do we?

Since the patronymic fixation of family surnames in Europe (XV° century for the most, except Sandinavia, Jews and Welsh people, I think), I think the changing of name was very seldom -
it's in the USA I think that the phenomenon took a slightly greater place- in Europe, and in USA too, we see rather adaptation of foreign names than a complete change and a linguist (anthroponymist/onomastician) can tell the origin of such partially "adapted" names - I saw more many a germanic names among slavic or hungarian countries, and the contrary too (especially in Austria), sometimes in France - very often the dapatation was more in spelling than in pronounciation (some difficult sounds apart) -
so, yes, names changings, but very seldom - cannot bias statistics too much -

 

[MOESAN]

it's true these personal names say nothing to us about earlier times

 

[Sile]

I'm curious about the surname thing, because in English speaking countries it's very common for people from various ethnic groups to change their name in order to seem more part of the mainstream. Does that not happen in Italy?

http://italian.about.com/od/italianculture/a/meaning-italian-last-names.htm

name changes only happened from what I know , due to law if you where under the venetian republic. The venetians had the same rules as Germany and England in regards to estates, ie the first boy inherited all holdings and other sons get nothing. So , under the republic, the second, third, fourth etc sons would add additions to their surnames, like, otto, ato, igo, lin, er, is, acco and a few others.
If the first son did not produce an heir at his death, the republic would take all the holdings into the state and provide lodgings and finance to the females of the family for life.
If the family was of the nobility side...........the same rules apply except second, third, fourth etc sons would be given well paid government jobs either in Italy or the colonies.

In regards to female and their surnames, they where always forbidden to take the husband surname in marriage ( this is again stated in Italian law of 1975). I know in the north-east this has always applied as I have searched many many BDM's registrars ...............essentially, very easy for me to track my maternal line

 

[Angela]

Wait a minute. Did I miss the point? Are you talking about, say, southern Italian immigrants changing their names when they move north? I'm not aware of any wide spread phenomenon like that. Most southern Italians with whom I'm acquainted, whether in Italy or here, are insanely proud of their heritage, more so than some northern Italians I know, and wouldn't dream of it.

It doesn't happen all that often when Italians move abroad either, even if it's to Anglo countries. In the few cases where I personally know that it has happened, it was an error by Ellis Island officials. So, a family named Chini became Kinney. They didn't change it to blend in...they're the type of family that tells you they're Italian in the first five minutes , it's just that it was almost impossible to change mistakes like that in the early years.

 

[LeBrok]

No, we don't, but they're virtually unchanged since surnames were first recorded after the Council of Trent.

Ed. Well, even that's not exactly correct, at least if you're talking about given names. From my own family...Aurelia, Ottaviano, Ameglia, Agostina, Claudio(a), Adriano(a)...We don't have a Cesare, but there are tons in Italy, and Tiberios, and on and on...

In my husband's family, there's a Constantino, a Florio (Florian), Flavio, Fabbio...

Enough?

I thought that we were talking about surnames? As per Aberdeen post starting this discussion.
First names are much more traditional and longer lasting.

 

[LeBrok]

Since the patronymic fixation of family surnames in Europe (XV° century for the most, except Sandinavia, Jews and Welsh people, I think), I think the changing of name was very seldom -
it's in the USA I think that the phenomenon took a slightly greater place- in Europe, and in USA too, we see rather adaptation of foreign names than a complete change and a linguist (anthroponymist/onomastician) can tell the origin of such partially "adapted" names - I saw more many a germanic names among slavic or hungarian countries, and the contrary too (especially in Austria), sometimes in France - very often the dapatation was more in spelling than in pronounciation (some difficult sounds apart) -
so, yes, names changings, but very seldom - cannot bias statistics too much -

Jewish surnames in Poland are either of German or Polish origin. Rosentzveig or Kaczmarski for example. In Poland most last names sound very recent, with nothing to do with Slavic name 1,000 years ago.
First names, given names, can be much more persistent, much more traditional either among Jews, Poles or Italians, as Angela mentioned.

I think Swedes (maybe Norwegians) are unusual case. They had so few last names that recently government ask people to get creative and select new last names to increase variety.

 

[Angela]

I thought that we were talking about surnames? As per Aberdeen post starting this discussion.
First names are much more traditional and longer lasting.

I was teasing a bit, LeBrok, but yes, it's true, given names are much more traditional. I have a Venetian cousin in law whose family has lived in the city since the 1400s and they have a tradition of naming their sons Greek names as the family used to trade with, and owned lands in Greece. So, the son of the family is named Archimedi, thankfully shortened to Medi.

I think the first modern Italian surnames came into use in Venice around the year 1000 AD. By about 1400 the use of surnames was pretty widespread, and then in 1564 the Council of Trent mandated that all children had to be registered by given name and surname.

That's why it's relatively easy to do a long family tree in Italy so long as you're willing to spend days looking through dusty parish records. It helps that women keep their maiden names through life as well. The only problem is that naming traditions where it was customary to name a child after a grandfather or grandmother meant that lots of cousins had the same name. Also, women were often automatically given Maria as a first name, so you have to go by the second name.

Still, it's certainly doable. Most people aren't interested, however. They know their ancestral villages, and that's enough for them.

 

[LeBrok]

I think the first modern Italian surnames came into use in Venice around the year 1000 AD. By about 1400 the use of surnames was pretty widespread, and then in 1564 the Council of Trent mandated that all children had to be registered by given name and surname.

That's why it's relatively easy to do a long family tree in Italy so long as you're willing to spend days looking through dusty parish records.

That's amazing. In Poland after destruction of two World Wars there is not much old archive left. People are happy if they can go back 5-6 generations in family history.

 

[John Doe]

Jewish surnames in Poland are either of German or Polish origin. Rosentzveig or Kaczmarski for example. In Poland most last names sound very recent, with nothing to do with Slavic name 1,000 years ago.
First names, given names, can be much more persistent, much more traditional either among Jews, Poles or Italians, as Angela mentioned.

I think Swedes (maybe Norwegians) are unusual case. They had so few last names that recently government ask people to get creative and select new last names to increase variety.

It depends, for example the surnames I know were involved in my family are:
Weinberg
Brunengraber
Mandelberg
Elsenberg
Czerniak
Zolka
Klinghoffer

German/Polish surnames probably adopted by my ancestors in the 18th century. As for the first names, while it's true that at first you see mixed German/Polish and Jewish names like Woolf, Sury (Sarah), Emma, David etc, in more recent generations (since we're very Secular), the names had little to no relation to Judaism, names like Laurence, Diana, Nicola, Philippa, Peter etc, also going even further my great grandpa completely changed his surname when he got to England. Still 23andme says 95.1% AJ but you get the point. I suppose that if you look at religious Jews you'll still see Jewish first names and sometimes no surnames, just Moses son of Jacob or w/e.

 

[John Doe]

That's amazing. In Poland after destruction of two World Wars there is not much old archive left. People are happy if they can go back 5-6 generations in family history.

Very true, I can only go back to the early 19th century, my ancestors came from Poznan, Krakow and Boryslaw. Paternally Germany and Poland but I know nothing of specific regions.

 

[Angela]

That's amazing. In Poland after destruction of two World Wars there is not much old archive left. People are happy if they can go back 5-6 generations in family history.

Some areas, like La Spezia, were totally flattened during WWII, so the churches and the records are gone. However, the Bishop's archives still exist. The records also still exist for the surrounding villages.

Anyway, to be able to trace at least some family lines back to the mid 1500s is not all that unusual.

As for the number of surnames, I think it might be like STRS or SNPS, the longer you've had them, the more you have...the latest estimate was 350,000.

http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Cronache/2006/09_Settembre/15/cognomi.shtml

 

[Aberdeen]

Some parts of Scotland have a naming tradition as well, although I don't think it's used as much today. But if you look at old church or municipal records going back two or three centuries, in some families all the men are named William, Robert or James and all the women are named Heather or Mary. But surnames were often changed because members of a clan or sept would be proscribed for some reason, especially during and after the Jacobite rebellions. It makes tracing ancestry very difficult, especially since you can usually only go back 300 or 400 years at most, since the majority of churches were made of wood, and in northeastern Scotland there was a big switch from Catholic to Presbyterian in some areas.

 

[MOESAN]

Jewish surnames in Poland are either of German or Polish origin. Rosentzveig or Kaczmarski for example. In Poland most last names sound very recent, with nothing to do with Slavic name 1,000 years ago.
First names, given names, can be much more persistent, much more traditional either among Jews, Poles or Italians, as Angela mentioned.

I think Swedes (maybe Norwegians) are unusual case. They had so few last names that recently government ask people to get creative and select new last names to increase variety.

I think just the opposite: First name are less stabile (modes) contrary to surnames (family names) fixed for a long time among the most of European cuntries (the first ones: Ireland) -
for Jews I agree: they took names when they were obliged to leave their old system, common among all countries at some stage of history: first name of the father + a suffix indicating filiation (genitive: -sen, -son, -sohn, -sson, mac-, (m)ab- (Welsh? breton), fitz-, ben-, ibn- (Jews, Arabs), -ian (?Armenians)
in France they choose a discrete name, except some Levy and Cohen - (Livi in Italy, Lewin elsewhere) in Germany, the Cohen name became "hidden" behind some Kohn, Kuhn, Kaan, Koen forms but more often they took german placenames of localization or translated hebraic names into german pseudo palcenames: very often they countain the elements:
tal, rosen, gold, berg, stein, blum, baum (boim), silber... in combinations - in Poland I don't know, surely they took also local placenames or pseudo-
placenames - but Jews were great travellers and Germany wurely was a big place for them at some time because they created the yiddish language on a south-german basis and everywhere in Europe or almost they spoke this yiddish - and as you say, the most of jews in Central and East Europe bear "german" surnames
in North Africa it seems they took arabic surnames, sometimes very close to their own names -
$: some Cohen, Coen 's in Ireland have a celtic root, not jewish!

 

[LeBrok]

I think just the opposite: First name are less stabile (modes) contrary to surnames (family names)

I meant stable as long existence and history, longer than surnames. I didn't mean stable as stuck to one family, lineage.

in France they choose a discrete name, except some Levy and Cohen - (Livi in Italy, Lewin elsewhere) in Germany, the Cohen name became "hidden" behind some Kohn, Kuhn, Kaan, Koen forms but more often they took german placenames of localization or translated hebraic names into german pseudo palcenames: very often they countain the elements:
tal, rosen, gold, berg, stein, blum, baum (boim), silber... in combinations - in Poland I don't know,

In Poland variety of last names is huge, as big as it gets, I guess. If you know two people of the same last name, they must be from the same family. This was also common for Jewish names. I think, many modern Jewish names in Poland were created just recently with assimilation to mainstream population, going secular, and to avoid anti semitism, to be treated as ordinary citizens, and not just Jews, the outsiders.

 

[Sile]

That's amazing. In Poland after destruction of two World Wars there is not much old archive left. People are happy if they can go back 5-6 generations in family history.

In italy , prior to 1800, the church and the heraldry scribes held all the records of BDM. Once napoleaon entered Italy then , the rules where that the records are held in civic places and the church has there own records. 2 places for records to be held.
Why....because in Italy, one had to produce a letter of proof of his ancestors and her ancestors, then place on the outside of the civic offices an intent to marry. This notice had to stay in display for 21 days , which is the only time someone can contest the wedding. The service would be firstly held in the civic offices , then the couple would go to the church for another service ........this is the reason, Italy has 2 places that marriages are recorded.

 

[Pax Augusta]

I just gave this paper a quick run through. I may change my mind after a more thorough analysis, but I think they may have gotten it wrong. Again...even with whole genomes. It's not to say that the conclusion is necessarily incorrect. It's just to say that their analysis doesn't prove it.

You would think that by now some of these academics would have read and absorbed Lazaridis et al, and realized that you can't use modern populations to analyze ancient gene flow. Nor can use use IBS segments. IMO, you need ancient DNA, and absent that, some really sophisticated IBD analysis.

Here's the link to the paper.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0105920

I agree with this: "When all the genetic evidence obtained so far are taken together, it seems clear that the Etruscans cannot be regarded as ancestral of all modern-day Tuscans".

I will read carefully the research.

No, we don't, but they're virtually unchanged since surnames were first recorded after the Council of Trent.

Not always true.