A pagan nation with pretentious manners

[Tonysoong]

Look societies and cultures copy off of each other all the time. It's not because they want to forget their past or imitate others, it's because people choose to have a better living when it's made avaiable to them. It's a part of human nature. People copy off each other all the time to make their lives better, that in no way takes away their individuality. They're still unique and individual in their own right still with knowledge of their own past. It's just that they change certain apparences, situations, concepts, etc to make their life better. No matter how much copying a society or culture does from others, they still stay true to their roots (well for the most part they do depending on the individual).

Doc:ramen::happy:

The question is "for better or for worse as a whole--- or for better and for worse in different aspects". Right?

 

[miu]

I get the strange feeling that you two are referring to the same phenemenon that nobody truly understands. Japan as any other country is not uniform, as has been pointed out many times

Exactly - in Japan, the idea of Japan and its people as an entity did not really exist before the Nation State. Before that the ordinary people had little or no idea who the emperor was. It's true that Japan has many invented traditions, such as the kimono for example, but I suppose you could speculate this has all been brought about along the Nation State. Invented traditions and concepts were introduced in order to unify a very heterogenous people. This still doesn't mean that Japan is completely without any 'serious' tradition.

Therefore maybe the statement by Tonysoong about the Japanese seeing the other asian countries as inferior should be altered to include other nations and there views about other cultures?

Exactly. I very much doubt that many Americans or Europeans consider Thailand, for example, to have an equal status with their country.

But, perhaps as Iron Chef has noticed, there is a serious problem behind the Japanese copying --- They have imitated so much both from classic China and the modern west (too much) without digesting it.

You might want to revise what you wrote. I don't think that you can claim that for example the kanji still exist in a mere copied state in the Japanese writing system. Chinese characters work perfectly with Chinese - they work less perfectly with Japanese as it is an agglutinating language. They first tried to make it fit, found out it doesn't work quite right and changed the system to suit Japanese better. It is still quite evident that kanji derives from hanzi but even a Chinese speaker would have to study kanji before being able to use them. This, I think, Would not be the case if the kanji were only a copy of something. A copy means something identical, doesn't it?

Besides, classical Chinese culture itself has borrowed elements in it. For example in stage arts, the Jin dynasty zaju was brought about by the Jurcen people from Manchuria - they were not Han Chinese. And still, the Jin dynasty was a great era for stage arts in China. As for other examples, I think you would be quite capable of distinguishing Japanese ukiyo-e from Chinese art. As for having similar style, isn't it the same to claim that all impressionists copied one person only because they have a similar style? Why do we distinguish different impressionists from one another if they all 'copy' something? Because they are able to differentiate themselves even while executing a similar style.

 

[Tonysoong]

I mean no derogation of copying. I am try to, with ur consent and assistance, dig into the deformed civilisation which is devoid of its humanistic core

 

[kirei_na_me]

This is a forum --- for exchange of views and debates --- not for Karade or boxing?

I mean no derogation of copying. I am try to, with ur consent and assistance, dig into the deformed civilisation which is devoid of its humanistic core

Ok, you make that comment about the forum's purpose being for exchange of views and debates, not for karate and boxing, but then you make some comment like the one in bold italics above?

Hmmm...

 

[Doc]

The question is "for better or for worse as a whole--- or for better and for worse in different aspects". Right?

For lack of a better term yes. Take a look at Bulgaria for example. Their culture centers around that of their ancestors and western ideas for the past ten years. However, there is a gap in history textbooks spanning almost over fifty years. Do you know why? It's because the society as a whole feels that it's best to forget about the Nazi rule and then Communist rule in their country. Children are all about western ideals and have no knowledge of those years of hell in the past for their parents and grandparents. Yet despite all that they stay true those their knowledge of their ancestors and past culture. It all depends on how societies and cultures see fit on intergrating new ideals western or not.

Doc:ramen::happy:

 

[Tonysoong]

I mean no derogation of copying. I am try to, with ur consent and assistance, dig into the deformed civilisation which is devoid of its humanistic core

Me? Instigator? How?

 

[miu]

If you're looking for faults in the Japanese society, you should atleast give some valid proof for your claims. I can think of flaws in the Japanese society but what I don't do is to singulate Japan as the only nation that does this. Discrimination, war crimes - we can find these elsewhere as well. In China, for example. You wrote that 'the Japanese have never gone beyond imitation' and I gave some evidence which shows that borrowed elements in the japanese culture are not mere copies. If you want to examine 'the deformed civilisation which is devoid of its humanistic core' (and I assume you mean Japan), give some valid proof for your claims?

You might also want to consider differentiating your own, possibly emotional, idea of Japan from the concept of copying. Of course people are going to assume you mean copying is something negative if say "Japan copies other nations" and surround it with negative words and sentences. :souka:

 

[Tonysoong]

Ok, you make that comment about the forum's purpose being for exchange of views and debates, not for karate and boxing, but then you make some comment like the one in bold italics above?

Hmmm...

I am derailing you?

 

[bossel]

dig into the deformed civilisation which is devoid of its humanistic core

Humanism (from M-W):
1 a : devotion to the humanities : literary culture b : the revival of classical letters, individualistic and critical spirit, and emphasis on secular concerns characteristic of the Renaissance
2 : HUMANITARIANISM
3 : a doctrine, attitude, or way of life centered on human interests or values; especially : a philosophy that usually rejects supernaturalism and stresses an individual's dignity and worth and capacity for self-realization through reason

Could you please be a bit more specific about what exactly is missing in Japanese culture which is so much more present in other cultures?

 

[Tonysoong]

If you're looking for faults in the Japanese society, you should atleast give some valid proof for your claims. I can think of flaws in the Japanese society but what I don't do is to singulate Japan as the only nation that does this. Discrimination, war crimes - we can find these elsewhere as well. In China, for example. You wrote that 'the Japanese have never gone beyond imitation' and I gave some evidence which shows that borrowed elements in the japanese culture are not mere copies. If you want to examine 'the deformed civilisation which is devoid of its humanistic core' (and I assume you mean Japan), give some valid proof for your claims?


You may well defend Japan juat as I have many positive impressions about this island country --- their diligence, effeciency, and rigidity. But....

Their war atrocities were not just killing. It was killing of civilians. It was chemical weapon tests on living humans who they called MARUDA. Their military fought in utter ignorance of established international law.

Their so-called unconditional surrender was just that without repentance.

Any nation has the right to shuffle off certain parts of their history for their own sake, but that does not mean they can be exempt from their moral responsibilities to other nations.

Any civilisation has its defects and faults, but if a civilisation refrains from facing its own defects and faults, we need to help dig into it, urging its members to take due responsibilities.

In China, for example, it is well accepted that the CCP owes justice to those killed in the 1989 pro-democratic movement.

 

[Tonysoong]

Humanism (from M-W):
1 a : devotion to the humanities : literary culture b : the revival of classical letters, individualistic and critical spirit, and emphasis on secular concerns characteristic of the Renaissance
2 : HUMANITARIANISM
3 : a doctrine, attitude, or way of life centered on human interests or values; especially : a philosophy that usually rejects supernaturalism and stresses an individual's dignity and worth and capacity for self-realization through reason

Could you please be a bit more specific about what exactly is missing in Japanese culture which is so much more present in other cultures?

Nazi Germany was by no means humanistic, but today's Germany is humanistically responsible with its hearty repentance endorsed with forgiveness from its victmised European nations.

 

[miu]

Their war atrocities were not just killing. It was killing of civilians. It was chemical weapon tests on living humans who they called MARUDA. Their military fought in utter ignorance of established international law.

I am quite aware of the fact that Japan committed war crimes - they not only killed civilians they tortured them. You might also consider Hiroshima and the Americans' idea of it as 'testing'.

It's a very different thing to present a claim about war crimes than to disguise it as another claim. You are either unable to differentiate the two or saying that Japan imitated Western countries in cruelty. I doubt that you meant the latter, though. People might be fed up with the discussion about the relationship between China and Japan as well as war crimes, so I think it would be only fair to start a discussion on war crimes with an appropriate title and not call it a discussion about copying other nations. Cultural and other borrowings affect so many other fields besides politics, so you're bound to be told you're misusing a topic.

 

[Tonysoong]

I am quite aware of the fact that Japan committed war crimes - they not only killed civilians they tortured them. You might also consider Hiroshima and the Americans' idea of it as 'testing'.

It's a very different thing to present a claim about war crimes than to disguise it as another claim. You are either unable to differentiate the two or saying that Japan imitated Western countries in cruelty. I doubt that you meant the latter, though. People might be fed up with the discussion about the relationship between China and Japan as well as war crimes, so I think it would be only fair to start a discussion on war crimes with an appropriate title and not call it a discussion about copying other nations. Cultural and other borrowings affect so many other fields besides politics, so you're bound to be told you're misusing a topic.

Perhaps you will be in a better position to understand relevance between a hearty epentance for war atrocities and a humanistic core of a civilisation, the latter of which can hardly be obtained through mere copying, only when one day you live in a situation lacking either of the two.

I didn't start this thread expecting everyone to enjoy it. Any way it is not about sex or travelling, it is about some nations being victmised by one other nation in the era of modern civilisation. And even though we are reasonable enough to have realised that the best way out of all this agony is a hearty repentance endorsed with forgiveness, yet both are way off. We need to talk about it. Most of us, i believe, are not here to fight. So you, as an outsider, don't in the least need to worry or to get fed up. And there are so many other threads for you to follow and have fun.

BTW, It's obvious that many Europeans and Americans don't seem to understand the agony of us Chinese and Koreans with Japan's WW2 atrocities. So when you start a respective thread, hoping to communicate with Japanese friends, some Europeans and Americans would surround you with bitter remarks, with our Japanese friends standing aloof watching you trapped and giggling.

Be liberal minded and you will enjoy this nice forum.

 

[Tim33]

You are getting onto another topic now and back to the war. Can you not argue about anything else.

Is everything the Japanese do bad and wrong because of the war???

Was this just another topic for you to bring up another war thread. Is this as far as your mind can go??

 

[kirei_na_me]

BTW, It's obvious that many Europeans and Americans don't seem to understand the agony of us Chinese and Koreans with Japan's WW2 atrocities. So when you start a respective thread, hoping to communicate with Japanese friends, some Europeans and Americans would surround you with bitter remarks, with our Japanese friends standing aloof watching you trapped and giggling.

Be liberal minded and you will enjoy this nice forum.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=203328#post203328

I hope no one interprets this as spam.

 

[Tonysoong]

You are getting onto another topic now and back to the war. Can you not argue about anything else.

Is everything the Japanese do bad and wrong because of the war???

Was this just another topic for you to bring up another war thread. Is this as far as your mind can go??

Ok, I will try, bur perhaps later, my friend, as it's already early morning here in China, and in Japan too.

Oh, I should say GOOD DAY before my departure.

Good day, all my dear friends

Thanks

 

[Duo]

Herrrre we gooooooooo, another Japan has faults thread, they did atrocities they dont accept them etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etccccccc........ we all know that the Japanese don't have a clear concience and are intransigent in accepting their ghost from the past. Howeverrrrr, it seems to me that China also has a few ghosts of its own, if you guys recongize the mistakes of Japan, why did you repeat them ?

An example, Tibet, and this is in modern history, the cultural revolution, the barefoot doctors; every country has it's own s**t that stinks up from the sewer from time to time, the problem is to recognize that you can't try to give me moral judgment on Japan without considering your legacy. It would be like well, like a Belgian accusing a French person of the negative effects of the colonlization of Africa.

 

[miu]

I don't claim to have any first-hand experience of WW2 since I'm too young for that - how about you? How about the post-2WW generations of Japanese people? As a Chinese person you are probably aware that China has a history of jailing people for saying the wrong things and they government is still continuing this. The things that happen to those people are probably not something you would want to go through yourself. And this is only one thing in addition to what Duo alreayd pointed out. Yet, I cannot judge all Chinese people as thoroughly evil and incapable of establishing civilized culture. How can I judge millions of people that have absolutely no say in what the government does? What I can do is see what the government and people
in power do but I still have to be aware that 'the Chinese' does not mean 'the people in power', it for the most part means people who have absolutely nothing to do with what the officials issue.

If you think about 2WW and Germany, for example, there are reasons why the Nazis were able to take power into their hands and one of the reasons was to use the plight of the German people. They employed a whole nation to help Germany prepare to take over the world: do you seriously think they told everyone "Will you join this party and help us destroy thousands of innocent people?". I hope you get my point.

Moreover, if you consider the situation in effect in Japan after 2WW, was it not the case that the USA was pretty much telling the Japanese what to do and remodeling their legal system - how would it have looked if the Japanese would have gotten friendly with communist China? It may also be partly the case that the USA was afraid of Japan turning into a communist state, so and this would only elaborate the point why admitting anything to a communist state such as China would be very difficult. The situation has changed now, but after having such a long tradition in not admititng anything, is it ever easy to turn around? When you accuse other people of not being able to see the viewpoint of others, you might also consider are you doing the same.

Also, when you talk about humanism, humanitarianism and culture, it is slightly off-topic to claim that a certain culture is thoroughly rotten by examining one aspect or point in the lifespan of the culture or a nation. I'm not here to fight with anyone, I just wanted to point out--like Tim33 said-- that if you want to talk about the Second World War, don't give us a topic about a culture copying other nations and title your topic more appropriately.

If I may quote you, you said 'Anyhow, the Japanese have never gone beyond imitation. And the Japanese civilisation can be regarded as a civilisation of imitations which is devoid of its humanistic core.

This core can only be achieved through digestion of what they have imitated, either oriental or western, rather than through mere imitation.' This, in my oppinion, would refer to culture and humanities such as literature and arts for example, rather than Japan's war crimes during the Second World War.

 

[bossel]

Nazi Germany was by no means humanistic, but today's Germany is humanistically responsible with its hearty repentance endorsed with forgiveness from its victmised European nations.

I can't really follow your interpretation of humanistic, perhaps humane would fit better.

& in that regard I can definitely say that Japanese are not really worse than other nations. All humans are pretty similar in such characteristics. The Japanese government doesn't own up to its historical responsibilities, but blaming all Japanese (as the society/civilisation) for that & denying them inherent human capabilities goes a bit far. You should weigh your words a bit better, or give better definitions of what you actually mean.

 

[alexriversan]

yesterday, i have seen on tv, every 45 minutes, one irish person commits suicide.

and, ireland was "the" land were christianity was introduced, around the year 400 CE.

if that's not deformed.

now, 6 million irish people, 1 suicide every 45 minutes.
the numbers for japan?

sorry for being rude, christianity does not provide answers to our time.

probably, it is not affecting the thread, but the author introduced the western concepts "humanity" "pagan" "christianity"

hence, it is required to understand what christianity is, and how christianity has affected the environment where it was applied.

if this is denied, it would be equal to: "christianity shall be applied as an obligatory mystery, which does not need to be understood". indeed, such formulations were common, not so long ago.

---------------

and, not too much off-topic: this is an imitation of what? (i mean the sega case design)

http://uk.geocities.com/irlalx/segams2/

history is so disgusting...