According to Lothar Kilian and A. Hausler: no immigrants for the dispersion of I.E.

The best argument according to me that R1b is not Indo-European at all is that there is no R1b in India!

INDO-European haplogroups in India are: R1a, R2a, G2a and J2a

Dravidian haplogroups in India are: H, L etc...
 
Goga said:
The best argument according to me that R1b is not Indo-European at all is that there is no R1b in India!

INDO-European haplogroups in India are: R1a, R2a, G2a and J2a

Dravidian haplogroups in India are: H, L etc...
Click to expand...
According to the theory that R1b is Indo-European, R1b was in the southwest of the Steppes, and Indo-Iranian migrations didn't pass through there.
 
Asturrulumbo said:
According to the theory that R1b is Indo-European, R1b was in the southwest of the Steppes, and Indo-Iranian migrations didn't pass through there.
Click to expand...
Which theory? Do you have papers or studies about that.

And there is not so much R1b in the soutwest of the Steppes. And if R1b migrated from there it would also carry R1a with it.
 
Haganus said:
Who does know Lothar Kilian and A. Hausler's theories:
the Indo-European languages did not arrive in West-Europe by immigrants, but
by acculturation and adoption. Both authors remark that the skeletons of people from the areas west of Weichsel are quite differents from those of the people in south Russia
and Ukraine. They absolutely deny any kind of immigration.
Who can give me more information? What is your opinion about Kilian and Hausler's theories?
Click to expand...

This theories are outdated and already "proven" to be wrong. Not a single individuals of R1b was found from paleolithic Europe so far while today this Haplogroup dominates West Europe.
 
Alan said:
This theories are outdated and already "proven" to be wrong. Not a single individuals of R1b was found from paleolithic Europe so far while today this Haplogroup dominates West Europe.
Click to expand...
Pretty obvious.

And if one day appears some ancient R1b in Europe, I expect it very far from the modern subclades.
 
Goga said:
The best argument according to me that R1b is not Indo-European at all is that there is no R1b in India!

INDO-European haplogroups in India are: R1a, R2a, G2a and J2a

Dravidian haplogroups in India are: H, L etc...
Click to expand...

Hmmm . . . I think that is a bad argument. The fact that there is little R1b in India proves only that there is little R1b in India.

Indo-European-speaking invaders may have spread R1a to India, but that does not prove R1b is not Indo-European.

Let's put it this way. If I have melons in my garden, but they are all watermelons, does that prove that cantaloupes are not melons?
 
The oldest R1b in Europe that we know about is that single R1b individual from the Lichtenstein Cave discovery, circa 1,000 BC.

After that, I believe the bodies from the Aldaieta cemetery in the Basque country in Spain are the oldest, but they date from the early medieval period (6th century, I think).

Next in age come the bodies of the warriors in the cave in Ergolding in Bavaria from the 7th century.

Does anyone know of any older R1b in Europe? I haven't heard of any.

So, the oldest known R1b in Europe dates from the Bronze Age. After that, we have a few from the early medieval period, and that's it.

Claims that R1b is "very ancient" in western Europe are lacking in aDNA support. Of course, maybe the "very ancient" R1b in Europe just hasn't been discovered yet. Maybe.
 
The distance between R1a and R1b is at least 18000 years. If Proto-Indo-Europeans were R1* folks that would mean that they lived at least 18000 years ago!

According to me the Indo-European ethnicity is not that old.

A new race emerged when J2a & G2a folks mixed with R1a & R2a folks in the Ponstic Steppe. These folks spoke a proto-Indo-European language.

And later their Iranic offsprings were responsible for the invasion of India and wrote the Awesta-Gatas and Rig Vada Aryan writings.

But the writing itself is from the Mesopotamia from the J2a & G2a folks!
 
A new race? Whoa! Never happened.

Indo-European is a family of languages, not a race. Both R1a and R1b are older than that language family, so it is fruitless to try to tie PIE to the birth of either y haplogroup, let alone its ancestor, R1. That does not mean both are not of predominantly Indo-European provenance, in Europe and elsewhere.

The argument you made, that the lack of R1b in India proves R1b is not Indo-European, is not logical, just as my melon analogy was not logical.

I could make a similar argument, for example, by saying that the lack of R1a in Ireland proves that R1a cannot be Indo-European. In fact, one could make a good argument that Ireland is more strongly Indo-European than India, since no non-IE language or culture survived in Ireland, as they certainly do in India.

How much R2a is there north of the Black Sea? Not much, I'm thinking.

As for G2a, it seems to have a much stronger affinity for the Caucasian languages than for Indo-European languages.

I'm no expert on the J haplogroup and its clades, but they all seem to have a much stronger connection to Semitic languages than to Indo-European.
 
Arabs in Arabia don't have much J2. Even folks in Europe have more J2a than Arabs in Arabia!

According to me J2 was originally a Hurrian marker. the first thing what happened to this marker is that it migrated southwest with the Neolithic farmers / agriculture. Also there's a lot J2 in Semitic speaking folks due to Hurrians AND Indo-Europeans conquests who invaded & raided Southern parts of the Middle East many time. I mean even Scythians invaded and raided Israel at one point in history!

As far as I know the Caucasus (be it North be it South) is cradle of Indo-European folks! So proto Indo-European would have G in them at the first place.

When J2a & G2 folks migrated northward R1a was present north of the Black Sea, while R2a was present on the left side of R1a, between Central Asia & the north side of the Caspian Sea. R2a was neighbouring R1a on the East!

15797570.jpg

http://www.google.nl/#sclient=psy-a...biw=1298&bih=595&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&cad=b

52191874.jpg

http://www.google.nl/#sclient=psy-a...biw=1298&bih=595&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&cad=b
 
Alan said:
This theories are outdated and already "proven" to be wrong. Not a single individuals of R1b was found from paleolithic Europe so far while today this Haplogroup dominates West Europe.
Click to expand...
They didn't find any hg. 'E' in Europe either.

And hg. E is also very old in Europe!

I'm certain that if they find some ancient DNA in Britain it will be most probably R1b. they're just looking for ancient R1b in a wrong place!
 
There was a time, where I thought Basques are Hurrians moved to West Europe. Now again to me it seems like Basques are from Near East who have "mutated" through endogamy. Man they even call themselves Herria (Hurria?) in their own language, and their language is ergative just like Hurrians. The only explain why Basques have less West Asian than the rest of Europe is, that they are so much "inbreed" that their genome has changed extremely. The same is also the case for Sardinians. I mean Sardinians and Basques sometimes even fall out in European clusters.
 
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Basques aren't genetically that old, it's just the language (wich is very difficult to know where it comes from), I'm pretty sure about this now. They are very distinctive because they certanly practiced hard endogamy, but not from a extremely ancient point. The high Northwestern they show it's very likely related to R1b, in my opinion recent in Europe, so no magic mutation, more if we consider that during the Neolithic the most common clade in Europe and concretely there, was I2a1a* (nothing to do with the Near East). That's what the R1b peoples found there.

My perception about them has changed in that issue. I'm not sure about Sardinians, they are quite difficult to categorize since they get many different results on admixture.

In a global-plot they don't fall out of Europe, that's absolutely sure. What you see in most especific plots is a representation of isolation with many common markers, that's why they are separated. But they never deviate to Asia, Africa, and no need to say, the Near East. They are simply apart IN Europe.
 
Goga said:
They didn't find any hg. 'E' in Europe either.

And hg. E is also very old in Europe!

I'm certain that if they find some ancient DNA in Britain it will be most probably R1b. they're just looking for ancient R1b in a wrong place!
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No wrong place, since R1b is the most common in all Europe today. The most normal thing, is that, at least, in one country, a sample of a clearly related R1b with the ones we have today, appeared. But for the moment it wasn't the case.

You can't compare it with haplogroup E, this one is much less present today in all Europe. In that regard, I think it's valid the example you propose for the British islands, but looking at Iberia (especially the Western side). However, I think only E-M81 and similar clades would appear, I see it much more easy than finding E-M78. For this one, the Balkans or Greece seems a very likely option to start the research.
 
rms2 said:
Ahem . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2000px-Distribution_Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.jpg

Mesopotamia looks like the heartland of J2. Not exactly a hotbed of Indo-European, and I know of no one who has suggested it as the PIE homeland.

If J2 has a linguistic affinity at all, it is with Semitic languages and not Indo-European.
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?

Some subclades of hg. E and J1 belong to the Semitic languages!

There's is MUCH more J2 in the Caucasus than in the Mesopotamia. J2 is from the north and came down to the Mesopotamia! Before the Arabs the Mesopotamia was 'Aryanized'.

Chechens = 56.5 % of J2
Ingush = 88 % of J2
etc.

Also Hurrians and later early Indo-Europeans or maybe they were related to the Hurrians too, like Kassites, Mittani, Guti and later Iranic folks like the Medes, Parthians, Persians conquered the Mesopotamia many times.



Haplogroup-J2.jpg


West-Asian-admixture.gif
 
Knovas said:
No wrong place, since R1b is the most common in all Europe today. The most normal thing, is that, at least, in one country, a sample of a clearly related R1b with the ones we have today, appeared. But for the moment it wasn't the case.

You can't compare it with haplogroup E, this one is much less present today in all Europe. In that regard, I think it's valid the example you propose for the British islands, but looking at Iberia (especially the Western side). However, I think only E-M81 and similar clades would appear, I see it much more easy than finding E-M78. For this one, the Balkans or Greece seems a very likely option to start the research.
Click to expand...
R1b spread MUCH later into other parts (places) of Europe first from Britain later from Iberia.
 
Goga said:
R1b spread MUCH later into other parts (places) of Europe first from Britain later from Iberia.
Click to expand...

No, that makes no sense. If you look at the distribution of the various R1b subclades, it's much more likely that R1b (L23, L11) spread into Southeastern Europe first and then probably from there to Central Europe. It's likely that L11 then spread from there, with it's subclades S21 and S116 in Central-Northern Europe and Western Europe, respectively. S116 in turn had several subclades emerge which became dominant in different regions, namely S28 in the Alpine region + Italy, L21 on the British Isles / in the Atlantic Façade, and Z196 in Iberia.
 
Agree with you Taranis. Also, it seems he means that a form of R1b crossed from Asia all Europe (bypassing) and the sea to establish in the British Islands a very long time ago, evolving to a close reference of the modern subclades, and then spreading from there to the rest of the territory. That's why he tells "later", seems like he proposes the British Islands as the place of origin for European R1b...

Sorry, but that looks fantasy. Incredibly unlikely.
 
Taranis said:
No, that makes no sense. If you look at the distribution of the various R1b subclade, it's much more likely that R1b (L23, L11) spread into Southeastern Europe first and then probably from there to Central Europe. It's likely that L11 then spread from there, with it's subclades S21 and S116 in Central-Northern Europe and Western Europe, respectively. S116 in turn had several subclades emerge which became dominant in different regions, namely S28 in the Alpine region + Italy, L21 on the British Isles / in the Atlantic Façade, and Z196 in Iberia.
Click to expand...
You're talking about very, very young R1b subclades. And I have about the 'native' European R1b in Britain from the ice age times!

"During the Last Glacial Maximum, about 18,000 years ago, the people bearing the R1b haplogroup over wintered in Northern Spain (see map1). After the glacial retreat about 12,000 years before present, R1b began a migration to the north in large numbers (see map 2), and to the east in declining numbers.

R1b probably arrived in Spain from the east 30,000 years ago among the paleolithic or "old stone age" peoples considered to be aboriginal to Europe). It is believed that everyone who is R1b is a descendant in the male line from an individual known as "the patriarch" since his descendants account for over 40% of all the chromosomes of Europe. This haplogroup is characteristic of the Basques whose language is probably that of the first R1b, and who are genetically the closest to the original R1b population (which probably amounted to only a few thousand individuals). Source: Dr. David Faux http://www.davidkfaux.org/shetlandhaplogroupR1b

Hg R was the dominant lineage in Western Europe and then, pushed south by the descending Ice Age, to southwestern France and northwestern Spain to evolve into lineage Hg R1b. This area became a refuge for humans in Europe during the coldest millennia of the last Ice Age. As the climate warmed, the scattered clan Hg R1b followed the migration of game to the north and some of them reached what is now the British Isles about 15,000 years ago which at this time was connected to mainland Europe. It is believed they changed from hunter-gatherers to farmers in southeastern Europe about 8,000 years ago and in Britain about 4,000 years ago. As hunter-gathers became farmer's permanent settlements ended this great migration period and over time Hg R1b settled predominately in what is known today as Spain, Portugal, France, Belgium, Denmark, England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland. Source http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~staplessurname/before_surnames.htm

During the Last Glacial Maximum, R1b produced finely knapped stone 'leaf points' which define the <a href="http://www.beloit.edu/~museum/logan/paleoexhibit/solutrian.htm">Solutrean culture</a> and were culturally distinct from the people in other European Ice Age refuges who are described more generally as Epi-Gravettian. Source: Oppenheimer, Stephen. The Real Eve, pp 249-50.

The mates for R1b, about the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, were mtDNA haplogroups H and V. (Haplogroup V was born in the Basque area of the Pyrenees shortly after the Last Glacial Maximum. Source: Oppenheimer, Stephen. The Real Eve, p 251.)

R1b Subclade Analysis by Ken Nordtvedt (We know him also from hg. 'I' analysis, lol.)

Source: Notes on Y-Chromosome Haplogroup R1b"


http://wiki.whitneygen.org/wrg/index.php/Whitney_Family_DNA_Project/Haplogroup_R1b
 
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